shantonu Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hey folks, As some of you know, I've been mistaken for an apolgist before because of my comments about the value of the Western worldview as inextricably linked to the the Christian worldview. I still stand behind those comments. Of course, I consider myself an atheist. This brings us to the topic of this thread. I was trying to consider (on another thread) just how far my atheism went. As per my one-sided discussion with LNC, I think what gets to the heart of the matter is that it makes no difference whether the Bible is proved true or false from a scientific or emprical point of view. Naturally, I think that the Bible is false--demonstrably false--from that standpoint. But more importantly--at least for me--even if someone could prove to a 100% mathematical certaintly that every word in the Bible were true, I still could not bring myself to worship the God of the Bible simply because I don't think the Biblical God is worthy of worship, and so I'd just be worshipping out of fear, and since fear never gets us very far, I don't think I'd worship God even if I believed in him completely. Thus, my question: what are the group's thoughts about this? If, for the sake of argument, someone could prove absolutely that the Biblical God existed exactly as stated in the Bible and operated more or less in the way that mainstream evangelicals think he operated, would you then be a Christian? Or is it the empricial/scientific stuff that gets you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaPirate Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I wouldn't worship that crackpot, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 16, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted March 16, 2009 Would you follow Hitler's orders to save your own life? Obviously, some did just that, but some did not. I like to think I would not. Biblegod was created for another time and place. The concept is less suited to current society (at least in developed countries) though fear and guilt can still sell it - but not to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I don't think worshipping out of fear is true devotion and worship. Its based on fear. I couldn't do it, true or not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 If everything in the bible was true and god did commit all of those atrocities and murder all of those people, I definitely wouldn't worship him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hey folks, As some of you know, I've been mistaken for an apolgist before because of my comments about the value of the Western worldview as inextricably linked to the the Christian worldview. I still stand behind those comments. I stand by those comments as well. Even our ages of enlightenment were against the backdrop of Christian myth, as a way to progress in our thinking. As such, it's premises served as our launching off point for our philosophies and science pursuits. We cannot divorce it from our worldviews as such. We would have to have been raised in an entirely foreign culture and social histories. I was trying to consider (on another thread) just how far my atheism went. As per my one-sided discussion with LNC, I think what gets to the heart of the matter is that it makes no difference whether the Bible is proved true or false from a scientific or emprical point of view. Naturally, I think that the Bible is false--demonstrably false--from that standpoint. But more importantly--at least for me--even if someone could prove to a 100% mathematical certaintly that every word in the Bible were true, I still could not bring myself to worship the God of the Bible simply because I don't think the Biblical God is worthy of worship, and so I'd just be worshipping out of fear, and since fear never gets us very far, I don't think I'd worship God even if I believed in him completely. This is a bit of a conundrum to answer. Beyond that fact the God of the Bible couldn't be validated using scientific means because it's a conglomeration of many different ideas fused into a larger myth, the Christian one, if the God of the Bible were in fact taken as a cohesive whole, what you would have would be a God of contractions. You would have to find mysterious hidden messages that only the enlightened could see in order to make it "fit". In other words the only way to have faith it was an accurate representation as a whole, you would have to apply spooky-logic to it, that it's a mystery that will one day be answered. Thus satisfying the disparity of seeing the God of Love acting as the God of Genocide. In short, you don't have faith. You have to put aside your questions, or horror, at the thought this God is a literal being as the Christian myth loosely tries to make the connection of their deity with the deity of the Old Testament; making their myth a part of the Jews Epic traditions. At least this is what Evangelicals call faith. I don't. So to answer the question, could I worship a God of disparate personalities, ranging from eternal love to bloodthirsty, sadistic hatred of humanity that doesn't bow down and worship it? Yikes. I guess the question would be, if that God was real, that people really accepted that God as that, wouldn't the world look a lot different and as a result our personalities would have been influenced through our cultural norms as part of a world owned and ruled by such a creature? If it were scientifically factual, then I'd be a different person. Hard to say what I'd do. Hug little babies with all my heart right before dashing them on sharp rocks and eating them? Thus, my question: what are the group's thoughts about this? If, for the sake of argument, someone could prove absolutely that the Biblical God existed exactly as stated in the Bible and operated more or less in the way that mainstream evangelicals think he operated, would you then be a Christian? Or is it the empricial/scientific stuff that gets you? Oh well.. if it operated as the Evangelical mainstream imaged him to be... That's a different question than as the Bible portrays him. They don't see him as the Bible portrays him. They, not the liberals, are the genuine "cherry pickers". Oh, well the answer to that is obvious. No. That's why I'm here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'm currently in a Love Relationship with Jesus, so yes, I would worship His Holy Father too. Jesus is real (especially in bed!), so no doubt His Father is too! Science doesn't need to prove what Love knows is real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'm currently in a Love Relationship with Jesus, so yes, I would worship His Holy Father too. Jesus is real (especially in bed!), so no doubt His Father is too! Science doesn't need to prove what Love knows is real! Hate to bring the world crashing down on you.. but that's some homeless guy named Jesus. He came from Detroit. Hope your using protection with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hate to bring the world crashing down on you.. but that's some homeless guy named Jesus. He came from Detroit. Hope your using protection with him. That was priceless, coming from you AM. Funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shantonu Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 Would you follow Hitler's orders to save your own life? Obviously, some did just that, but some did not. I like to think I would not. Biblegod was created for another time and place. The concept is less suited to current society (at least in developed countries) though fear and guilt can still sell it - but not to me. That's a decent analogy. Not perfect, but pretty good. I hope that I would not follow Hitlter's orders. I hope that I would not worship God even if I believed the Bibe were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shantonu Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 So to answer the question, could I worship a God of disparate personalities, ranging from eternal love to bloodthirsty, sadistic hatred of humanity that doesn't bow down and worship it? Yikes. I guess the question would be, if that God was real, that people really accepted that God as that, wouldn't the world look a lot different and as a result our personalities would have been influenced through our cultural norms as part of a world owned and ruled by such a creature? If it were scientifically factual, then I'd be a different person. Hard to say what I'd do. Hug little babies with all my heart right before dashing them on sharp rocks and eating them? Right. I hope that I would not worship. Maybe I would. The "100%" is what makes the quesiton tricky as you point out. It's more problematic if the Bible is 100% true. If the Bible is 35% true, then we're free to disregard the stuff that seems obviously crazy and keep the parts that are uplifiting. Alternatively we could do what you suggest and say that God simply doesn't have a consistent personality. But neither approach leaves us with a version of Christianity that other Christians would accept as authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shantonu Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 Thus, my question: what are the group's thoughts about this? If, for the sake of argument, someone could prove absolutely that the Biblical God existed exactly as stated in the Bible and operated more or less in the way that mainstream evangelicals think he operated, would you then be a Christian? Or is it the empricial/scientific stuff that gets you? Oh well.. if it operated as the Evangelical mainstream imaged him to be... That's a different question than as the Bible portrays him. They don't see him as the Bible portrays him. They, not the liberals, are the genuine "cherry pickers". Oh, well the answer to that is obvious. No. That's why I'm here! That's a very good point. I don't think the Evangelical mainstream interpretation should be given the primacy that I gave it. I'm with Desmond Tutu who thinks it's blasphemous to oppress gays--whereas the Evangelicals think it's blasphemous to accept gays. There's no reason to privilige the Evangelical's interpretation, which I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Even if the Bible were true, I could not in good conscience be a Christian. I am 100% opposed to someone dying in my place for any reason whatsoever; I reject the concept of Original Sin; and I have no respect for Biblegod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'm currently in a Love Relationship with Jesus, so yes, I would worship His Holy Father too. Jesus is real (especially in bed!), so no doubt His Father is too! Science doesn't need to prove what Love knows is real! Hate to bring the world crashing down on you.. but that's some homeless guy named Jesus. He came from Detroit. Hope your using protection with him. Awwww, SHIT! You mean he lied about being the Lord? Oh well... he's still heavenly in bed! And yes, I'm using protection. Since I've been having wild sex with Jesus, I've been using Mother of God Condoms. The Guaranteed Holy Blessings they contain are guaranteed to kill Satan's diabolical germs! Hail Mary, Full of... well... Something... Hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'm currently in a Love Relationship with Jesus, so yes, I would worship His Holy Father too. Jesus is real (especially in bed!), so no doubt His Father is too! Science doesn't need to prove what Love knows is real! Hate to bring the world crashing down on you.. but that's some homeless guy named Jesus. He came from Detroit. Hope your using protection with him. Awwww, SHIT! You mean he lied about being the Lord? Oh well... he's still heavenly in bed! And yes, I'm using protection. Since I've been having wild sex with Jesus, I've been using Mother of God Condoms. The Guaranteed Holy Blessings they contain are guaranteed to kill Satan's diabolical germs! Hail Mary, Full of... well... Something... Hallelujah! For some reason, that reminds me more of a dilated cervix than a condom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I think most of us, including myself, lived that dream for most of our lives and rejected it as false. If it were true, the religion is so unpalatable to make one not believe it anyway. I lived most of my life under the assumption it all was true to the letter and cannot even fathom a heaven with the rules and wonders these crackpots claim it to be. I'd rather go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 ... I've been using Mother of God Condoms. Jeff if you weren't going to hell before ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 If the Bible were proved true, I hope I'd be courageous enough to tell that monster to go fuck himself. And if Biblegod were true, I think it'd be a mandate for all of us ex-christians and others who believed in love, freedom and justice, to figure out a way to either strip him of his power, or KILL THE FUCKER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostchild Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 If the Bible were proved true, I hope I'd be courageous enough to tell that monster to go fuck himself.And if Biblegod were true, I think it'd be a mandate for all of us ex-christians and others who believed in love, freedom and justice, to figure out a way to either strip him of his power, or KILL THE FUCKER! Yeah, I read a book once, The Magic Goes Away by Larry Niven, where people killed the last of the gods because the idea of anything so powerful having absolute control over our lives was intolerable. I don't think I care whether he's benevolent, malevolent, or neutral. I can't stand the idea of *anything* having any sort of say in how I live my life beyond the question of whether I harm another being. Any interventionist god messing with humanity would need to be fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 What are the group's thoughts about this? If, for the sake of argument, someone could prove absolutely that the Biblical God existed exactly as stated in the Bible and operated more or less in the way that mainstream evangelicals think he operated, would you then be a Christian? Or is it the empricial/scientific stuff that gets you? If da wholly babble told the truth and jehoover really existed, it would be the supreme fuckface of the universe. A lying tantrum-throwing petty sadist. One could expect more kindness and mercy from him than from jehoover. 'nuff said. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I have to agree with everyone else. The only morally acceptable thing to do would be to reject and oppose the bible god. It's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PitterPatter Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I have to agree with everyone else. The only morally acceptable thing to do would be to reject and oppose the bible god. It's as simple as that. The guy is such a liar anyway, that I assume his threats are empty too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'd also stand up to biblegod if it turned out to literally be true. The biblegod is so immoral and wicked that to worship it would be to betray humanity. I don't think even most xtians follow the bible literally in spite of their claims because I think that deep down they know Yahweh is evil like the rest of us. When was the last time you saw a xtian sell all their possessions to follow Jesus? They just cherry pick when it's convenient for them to follow. Besides, all we'd need are a couple of iron chariots to bring him down since according to the bible, God loses to iron chariots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trike Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Absolutely not. Biblegod is not even worthy of any sort of respect much less worship. Fuck, I know of criminals worthy of more respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I just want to say think this is a fantastic thread. Even if hell were real, we still wouldn't worship. That's true heroism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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