This Is The Church Im Forced To Go To Every Week

[CelticWhisper]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's wrong to counsel a minor child in how to circumvent their parents' wishes? After all, their only crime is teaching their religion to the kids. It's not like they are physically abusive.

 

Yeah, I know - it's Christianity so it must be snuffed out at all costs (!) but responsible parents have the right and duty to raise their children as they see fit. I always offer moral support and ways to deal with having different beliefs than the parents, so I do sympathize with the child. I'm just uncomfortable undermining the authority of reasonable parents with whom I merely disagree.

 

My perspective on it is that you cannot apply a technical solution to a social or interpersonal problem. The problem is a lack of understanding or mutual respect between parent and child. The (hypothetical) solution is a keylogger to monitor the child's every keystroke for any hint of dissent. This sort of solution, especially when attempted in a clandestine fashion, only serves to damage trust further beyond the point to which it has already been damaged.

 

If the parents in question had more confidence in their beliefs, they likely wouldn't find it necessary to implement something so underhanded as keylogging for the simple purpose of figuring out if their child dares to disagree with them.

 

Another factor is the simple fact that while I do respect your opinion on child-rearing and the rights/responsibilities of parents, I also respectfully disagree with it in my belief that there are certain things that ought not to be done if there's no clear and present danger to a child's physical or mental welfare ("spiritual welfare" is too common a cop-out in these arguments with no real evidence to support it). Keylogging because your child is being targeted by some pederast or other creep, yes. Keylogging because your child is beginning to think for him/herself and develops opinions that differ from your own, no. The right thing to do in those cases is to discuss the matter with the child and be fully prepared for the possibility that you (the parent, not YOU you, Florduh) will not be able to change their mind.

[EmmaRose]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's wrong to counsel a minor child in how to circumvent their parents' wishes? After all, their only crime is teaching their religion to the kids. It's not like they are physically abusive.

 

Yeah, I know - it's Christianity so it must be snuffed out at all costs (!) but responsible parents have the right and duty to raise their children as they see fit. I always offer moral support and ways to deal with having different beliefs than the parents, so I do sympathize with the child. I'm just uncomfortable undermining the authority of reasonable parents with whom I merely disagree.

 

 

If it were merely 'teaching' religion to the child, I would agree with you. But there's a line between teaching your child the religion you believe; and brainwashing your child with an irrational, psychologically damaging lifestyle that most people raised in accept for the rest of their lives. I think Anna would be wise to guard her personal files because the discovery of those could lead to more restrictions and possible emotional/physical abuse.

 

Personally, I carry most stuff I write with me in my purse or I hide it away in boxes (once its old) and I change passwords to e-mail every month or so. I also don't go on here or other "objectional" sites at home- only at school (where no record is kept). My parents have never read my journals (to my knowledge, and I'm pretty positive I would know if they did) , so I suppose I've grown a little too trusting and should be a little more careful.

[Foxy Methoxy]

My parents still think im a christian. I find it hard to cope sitting in church listning to what I have now identified as bull flying out of the pastors mouth.

the church is no small thing its a ten million dollar building and when im there its particularly hardto cope with all the deluded nonsence.

they have a website http://www.cityimpactchurch.com/

how do I deal with asting a day and going every week?

 

 

Learn to love and accept them in spite of the beliefs they hold in which aren't in harmony with your own beliefs. By doing so, you will be transcending the limitations you see in them.

[Thurisaz]

...responsible parents have the right and duty to raise their children as they see fit. I always offer moral support and ways to deal with having different beliefs than the parents, so I do sympathize with the child. I'm just uncomfortable undermining the authority of reasonable parents with whom I merely disagree.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Are the parents Anna describes to us "responsible" or "reasonable"?

[Loren]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's wrong to counsel a minor child in how to circumvent their parents' wishes? After all, their only crime is teaching their religion to the kids. It's not like they are physically abusive.

 

Yeah, I know - it's Christianity so it must be snuffed out at all costs (!) but responsible parents have the right and duty to raise their children as they see fit. I always offer moral support and ways to deal with having different beliefs than the parents, so I do sympathize with the child. I'm just uncomfortable undermining the authority of reasonable parents with whom I merely disagree.

The thing is, nobody has advised Anna on how to sneak out of her bedroom window after midnight so she can go meet a forbidden boyfriend, or how to legally get around truancy laws, or anything like that. What we've been talking about is Anna using an external method of organizing and dealing with her own thoughts and feelings. I firmly hold to a parent's right and obligation to raise their child as they see fit, but if the child's loss of right to privacy extends even to the contents of her own head, then what kind of situation are we talking about, really? If parents were to have legal access to some of the drugs the CIA has tried to develop which cause a person under interrogation to babble the contents of their head whether they want to or not, do the parents have a moral right to administer such drugs to their child? Even if it's under the color of love and genuine concern for the child's well being?

 

I would say, no.

 

If there are truly any such things as inalienable rights, then I have to say that complete and autonomous ownership of the contents of my own mind and heart is one of them, no matter what age I may be. This is a threshold issue, in that if the principle of it is reduced past the point of personal autonomy, then the fundamental nature of how the individual is regarded has, perforce, changed from "human" to "chattel."

 

If any person's intrinsic right to complete ownership of their own mind is abridged, then they have become, in a very practical sense, livestock.

 

Florduh, thanks for bringing your point to the discussion. Conversations on the principles behind our actions are always good and serve to get our minds functioning in ways they might not otherwise have done. Much like the activity of writing, itself.

 

Loren

[Amethyst]

The thing is, nobody has advised Anna on how to sneak out of her bedroom window after midnight so she can go meet a forbidden boyfriend, or how to legally get around truancy laws, or anything like that. What we've been talking about is Anna using an external method of organizing and dealing with her own thoughts and feelings. I firmly hold to a parent's right and obligation to raise their child as they see fit, but if the child's loss of right to privacy extends even to the contents of her own head, then what kind of situation are we talking about, really? If parents were to have legal access to some of the drugs the CIA has tried to develop which cause a person under interrogation to babble the contents of their head whether they want to or not, do the parents have a moral right to administer such drugs to their child? Even if it's under the color of love and genuine concern for the child's well being?

 

I agree that everyone needs a safe place to express their thoughts and feelings. If a minor cannot express one's thoughts and feelings to one's parents without fear of being possibly abused, than that minor needs to do what they have to in order to keep that expression private.

 

Also if fear of abuse is really serious, that minor needs to contact another adult outside the home and tell them what is going on, be it a teacher, friend's parent, trusted relative, etc. No one should have to fear being abused by anyone.

[florduh]

I find it hard to cope sitting in church listning to what I have now identified as bull flying out of the pastors mouth.

 

This, apparently, is the extent of the "abuse." Honestly, I don't see the big deal. I was forced to go to a much more ignorant and fundamental venue three times a week, and a week of "camp meeting" each summer. It sucked, but it wasn't abuse. What other horrible things are going on besides weekly visits to a beautiful facility that offers a variety of great youth activities?

 

Scientologists teach their kids about Scientology, Mormons raise their young to be Mormons, Jews raise their children as Jews. Here we have Christian parents raising a child in Christianity. It ain't Waco.

[Amethyst]

Forcing any child to attend church against their wishes *is* abuse. Telling them they will burn in hell forever *is* abuse. Telling any child they must think like their parents or else *is* abuse. Systematic psychological abuse hurts, too.

[Vomit Comet]

I find it hard to cope sitting in church listning to what I have now identified as bull flying out of the pastors mouth.

 

This, apparently, is the extent of the "abuse." Honestly, I don't see the big deal. I was forced to go to a much more ignorant and fundamental venue three times a week, and a week of "camp meeting" each summer. It sucked, but it wasn't abuse. What other horrible things are going on besides weekly visits to a beautiful facility that offers a variety of great youth activities?

 

Scientologists teach their kids about Scientology, Mormons raise their young to be Mormons, Jews raise their children as Jews. Here we have Christian parents raising a child in Christianity. It ain't Waco.

 

Despite all that, let's say you deconverted at her age and then stumbled across this place. How would you like it if someone said "beat it, kid! You're too young to think for yourself. Come back when you're 18."

 

18 is kind of arbitrary anyways, isn't it? In the old days you were considered an adult as soon as you were old enough to make babies and strong enough to do all the jobs on a farm.

[florduh]

18 is kind of arbitrary anyways, isn't it?

 

Yes, it is. It is also a legality that makes parents responsible for the minor up to that age.

 

I love discussing the problems with Christianity and am eager to help those who wish to leave the faith. If a child wants to explore different beliefs than those of his/her parents, I will gladly talk to them.

 

My only thought on this subject was that I was uncomfortable with actively aiding a child to circumvent her parents wishes. Keeping a secret diary is pretty standard for teen girls, but I wouldn't hide such a diary in my house in order to keep it from the parents. It's up to the child to keep their secret thoughts, and it's up to parents to filter what they consider harmful influences.

 

As I said anyway, millions of kids are dragged to churches, synagogues, tuba lessons, soccer practice, and even school. I simply don't get the abuse angle given that the problem stated was it was "hard to cope" with listening to sermons she doesn't believe in. If making a child feel like it's "hard to cope" once a week by telling her something she disagrees with or doesn't want to hear can be labeled abuse, it takes something away from the meaning of real abuse.

[Amethyst]

As I said anyway, millions of kids are dragged to churches, synagogues, tuba lessons, soccer practice, and even school. I simply don't get the abuse angle given that the problem stated was it was "hard to cope" with listening to sermons she doesn't believe in. If making a child feel like it's "hard to cope" once a week by telling her something she disagrees with or doesn't want to hear can be labeled abuse, it takes something away from the meaning of real abuse.

 

If one grows up being told to feel guilty for being human, not to mention having at least one fundy parent in the household making them hate themselves for not being perfect enough on a daily basis, can you not see how that would constitute abuse? For being told repeatedly one would burn in hell forever for not following the religion?

 

Had I, as a teenager, kept a diary, my mother would have read it and I would have had no privacy. NONE. I would have been judged, yelled at, harped on, and criticized even more than I already was (to the point of wanting to kill myself).

 

Can you not comprehend how having a safe place to vent free from criticism from one's parents is important? Do you not understand what it is to be judged constantly? To be told that you are not perfect, on a regular basis, and because of that no one would ever love you or you would rot in hell?

 

Do you not see how something like that would be psychologically damaging over time? That that would lead to low self-esteem over the years?

 

If her parents are ANYTHING remotely like my mother was, I not only condone keeping a diary, I strongly encourage it.

 

One MUST have freedom of expression. That is one of the most precious things that we as human beings have, and to take that away is terribly wrong.

 

When people are going through a difficult time in their lives, they need to be able to cope - and journaling is a powerful coping mechanism. Taking that away from them because they aren't the legal age of 18, and saying "okay because you are not 18 yet, I have the right to read your thoughts and criticize all of them because I happen to be your parent and you disagree with me" is just plain cruel. Do you not see how that in and of itself is abusive psychologically if it happened repeatedly?

 

It would be one thing if she were doing drugs, and we encouraged her to hide drugs from her parents. Also, it would be one thing if she were like, 7 or 8. Then I could maybe see it. But she's not a young child. She's a teenager.

 

At her age I had already experienced my mother getting cancer and rapidly deteriorating, and I had to care for her after school. I gave up a lot of time with my friends for that. Girls in high school are a lot more mature than people think.

 

Writing and drugs are not the same thing. Writing is perfectly legal for all ages, and as a writer, I hope it always remains so. And I would hope that more teenagers wrote in secret diaries to cope with difficult times, than doing drugs.

[CelticWhisper]

18 is kind of arbitrary anyways, isn't it?

My only thought on this subject was that I was uncomfortable with actively aiding a child to circumvent her parents wishes. Keeping a secret diary is pretty standard for teen girls, but I wouldn't hide such a diary in my house in order to keep it from the parents. It's up to the child to keep their secret thoughts, and it's up to parents to filter what they consider harmful influences.

 

Well, that's fine. Everyone's moral perspective is going to be different, and you must of course act according to what you feel is right. I would never dream to tell you that you, too, must aid and abet the OP's efforts in maintaining secrecy if it doesn't sit right with you. All I would ask of you is that you return the courtesy (which you've done a fine job of already anyway, so not to worry) and not go out of your way to impede those of us who do not see a problem with it. I'm sure I speak for us all when I say we're fully prepared to accept responsibility for the advice we dispense insofar as we can reasonably be held responsible (that is to say a fair amount of responsibility lies in the hands of the individual using said advice).

[Vomit Comet]

Whoopin' a kid's ass to within an inch of their life used to be considered not abuse, and (drunken brutes out of a Faulkner novel aside) most parents in ye olden days honestly believed it was what was best for their young'uns. Today most of us know better. And tuba lessons, unless enforced by a monstrous stage parent straight out of Mommy Dearest, pale in comparison to the indoctrination headfuck many here were subjected to as kids.

 

Also, we're trying to prevent familial conditions for this kid from getting substantially worse, and they will get worse if her parents -- as naively well-meaning as they may be -- discover her activity here. I agree that it's probably a stretch to call what she's getting now "abuse", but whatever "it" is, it'll get a whole helluva lot worse pretty much instantaneously if they stumble upon her apostasy.

 

As for whether or not she as a legal minor should be here among us... well, how many of you deconverted as teenagers? As you squirmed miserably under the household yoke of fundyism, how much easier would it have been with a resource like this?

[florduh]

I guess it's about where we draw the line.

 

Taking a kid to church once a week is one thing - taking them to Jesus Camp is quite another. At least in my mind.

 

I expect parents to teach their beliefs and values to the children. How else could it be?

[Vomit Comet]

There's a fine line between "teaching" and "coercion." Often in fundy households the two are inextricably intertwined. The law of the land (don't murder, rape, or steal, etc.) is one thing, and that's a separate matter. It's practically a hard-won, long-fought-for universal human right to resist and transcend the brand of coercion that fundies deal in. And that's whether the coercion is exerted by an Emperor or by control freak fundy parents.

[florduh]

I looked back over this thread, and the only "abuse" mentioned by the OP is going to church once a week. I didn't find any references to browbeating, mind control, making her feel worthless, constant threats of Hell, or anything else.

 

I see all those heavy-handed tactics mentioned by others, but where did they get that information? If brainwashing, mind control and mental abuse is happening, that's a different matter. All I saw was a minor child complaining about having to go to church with the family.

 

If there were any horror stories related that I missed, I apologize. If it is just the originally stated problem of having to attend church with the parents, well, calling that abuse is overreacting in my opinion.

[Insanity personified]

I'm in essentially the same situation that the OP is in.

 

 

My solution? I spend the entire service writing Haiku poetry on the backs of those pieces of paper in the slot in front of my seat. I then place them in the offering tray for whoever the hell it is that goes through that stuff.

 

Hmm...do you think they ever wonder about just WHO it is that puts thpse haiku in the offering tray? XD

 

 

Try to make a game out of it. You'll be out of the house soon enough.

[Seeker630]

I'm in essentially the same situation that the OP is in.

 

 

My solution? I spend the entire service writing Haiku poetry on the backs of those pieces of paper in the slot in front of my seat. I then place them in the offering tray for whoever the hell it is that goes through that stuff.

 

Hmm...do you think they ever wonder about just WHO it is that puts thpse haiku in the offering tray? XD

 

 

Try to make a game out of it. You'll be out of the house soon enough.

 

 

Damned good healthy attitude. It won't last forever.

[Amethyst]

There's a fine line between "teaching" and "coercion." Often in fundy households the two are inextricably intertwined. The law of the land (don't murder, rape, or steal, etc.) is one thing, and that's a separate matter. It's practically a hard-won, long-fought-for universal human right to resist and transcend the brand of coercion that fundies deal in. And that's whether the coercion is exerted by an Emperor or by control freak fundy parents.

 

Exactly. If one is coerced to attend church, and/or church school that is not just teaching. That is brainwashing. Teaching is teaching facts or skills, like math, reading, science, art, cooking, etc. Parents coercing their kids to attend a church in order to believe literally in sky fairies, because the parents happen to, is not teaching them facts. It is teaching them how to be delusional. That is not healthy for anyone.

 

BTW - I have yet to see a conservative church that does not encourage literal belief in sky fairies.

[Amethyst]

My solution? I spend the entire service writing Haiku poetry on the backs of those pieces of paper in the slot in front of my seat. I then place them in the offering tray for whoever the hell it is that goes through that stuff.

 

Cope by whatever legal means necessary, IMO. Just don't get yourself in trouble.

[Amethyst]

I see all those heavy-handed tactics mentioned by others, but where did they get that information? If brainwashing, mind control and mental abuse is happening, that's a different matter. All I saw was a minor child complaining about having to go to church with the family.

 

I got that information from having lived through it.

 

Having been on this forum for several years, I also know these things are quite common with fundamentalist parents and it is a good bet they are happening, or may happen if they have not already.

 

IMHO it is better to keep one's opinion secret from people who may freak out. This is all I am saying - it is often better to remain a closet atheist until one is old enough to live on one's own. Not all of one's personal opinions need to be shared with one's parents before they move out of the house. If keeping a diary is a coping method, fine. But unless someone is planning on harming themself or others, parents should not have to be in the position of being thought police. If I were a parent, I would NOT want to be in the role of being thought police. I would hope my child trusted me to tell me things, but I would not expect every thought of my child to be told to me. That is unrealistic.

[florduh]

Sorry, Amethyst, for your bad experience.

 

Since the OP hasn't mentioned anything but a weekly church trip, that's all the information I have to go on and unless she says otherwise, there is no reason to imagine there is more to it. Her experience is not necessarily the same as yours or mine.

[Amethyst]

Sorry, Amethyst, for your bad experience.

 

Since the OP hasn't mentioned anything but a weekly church trip, that's all the information I have to go on and unless she says otherwise, there is no reason to imagine there is more to it. Her experience is not necessarily the same as yours or mine.

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree then.

 

Also Florduh, keep in mind that if we had had positive experiences with Christianity, most of us would never have deconverted. Deconversions generally do not happen until an experience makes a person think.

[Vomit Comet]

Hmm...do you think they ever wonder about just WHO it is that puts thpse haiku in the offering tray? XD

 

What if they figure out it's you and they narc you out to your parents?

[florduh]

Also Florduh, keep in mind that if we had had positive experiences with Christianity, most of us would never have deconverted. Deconversions generally do not happen until an experience makes a person think.

 

I understand that. There is no positive Christian experience to anyone who thinks rationally.

 

All I'm saying is that I don't assume everyone experienced the same things I did. The dogma in fundy households is pretty similar, but the application of it varies. I had to go to church and camp meetings frequently, but at home I wasn't preached at or browbeaten as a child. Just forced to be with the family as they worshipped. I didn't buy into it, but had to go anyway. No biggie. They made me take piano lessons too.

 

I only became a Christian much later, as an adult, under the pressure of people at work and the religious radio broadcasts that were always on. That was total immersion! I left the faith after much Bible study in an attempt to be a better Christian. Oh, the irony.

 

We all have different stories and I just can't make assumptions for someone else solely based on my experiences. Obviously, my childhood in a fundy household was nothing like yours. I'm sorry it was so painful for you.