The Judge

[Abiyoyo]

I have recently been having some issues with judgment altogether. Jesus said to judge not. OT God placed priests in a specific order to judge people on earth. God of the old seems to work by more of a trial an error than omniwhatever. The OT God of the Bible is like a human with superpowers that is oblivious to the result, or aftermath. ?

 

God's whole OT scene is much different from the role Jesus portrayed. This is my issue though. Take religion out of the equation, and it's really the same scenario.

 

Example. People today. America at least. We have a Judicial system, where we judge right and wrong, free or guilty. The system is imperfect, but sufficient enough to keep criminals off the streets, actually more sufficient than it should be as to the overpopulations in some prisons, and local jails. We have a Supreme Court, appointing judges by our President's representing the highest courts.

 

Then we have us, the people. We judge, in all of our surroundings. How would things be different if there was not judging, throughout the entire world. No condemnations, no judgments. I think that is impossible, I would think it would cause complete chaos either way with or without the Bible.

 

We are judgmental people, even if we evolved If one side of the world lived in more luxury, better education, dedicated time to thought, creating philosophical concepts, whereas the other side was far less civilized; if the two were to mix, judgment could be formed into thought. People have been judging for all mankind.

 

I think of America, Southern states for example. One man lives in a nice two story house, nice neighborhood, nice car, dog, fence, kids flying kites in the summer, pool parties, pumpkin pie for Thanksgiving, etc. Then I see a man that lives in a trailer, has five junk cars out in the front yard, trash visible, kids look dirty, no pumpkin pies, no kites, etc. These two people are both strong in their self image of being people. The first man went to college, saved his money, parents helped him, met his wife, finished school, got a great job, grew up in middle-upper class neighborhood and loves his life. The second man, same story, except he grew up knowing only the trailer park, finished high school, loves beer, football, deer hunting, working on cars, met his wife in the trailer park, and loves living the way he does.

 

The first and second man have some things in common. No religious affiliation, also one can't stand trashy looking people, and the other can't stand the upper class looking people. They both judge each other in their own ways, without religion tied in. So, judgment was always a constant, right?

 

Also, I will add that even if they were both 'Christians', they may still judge each other, possibly more so.

 

Why does the OT God always get a bad wrap with judgment, when on the other side of thought, we are people that need judgment to strive? There are certain subjects that are object of judgment, that I never agreed with even before I was religious.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do people need judged by God, or should God free people of judgment?

[Deva]

Why does the OT God always get a bad wrap with judgment, when on the other side of thought, we are people that need judgment to strive? There are certain subjects that are object of judgment, that I never agreed with even before I was religious.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do people need judged by God, or should God free people of judgment?

 

Firstly, there is no Bible God. This god does not exist.

 

Sure we judge all the time. We humans often make snap judgments of other people and other situations when we probably ought to think and reflect more first. Life is complex. If Bible God made the right judgments, even according to his own ethical standards he set forth for humans, it would be different. As it is, he does not. Its all a big mystery why this God likes blood so much, yet he says to humans "do not kill".

 

His judgments are not righteous. Yet he is supposed to know everything.

[Ouroboros]

First I want to say Yoyo that I find your thoughts to be more intriguing nowadays. Good for you.

 

Then I want to point out one thing you have to think of in your post, which is that you're talking about different kinds of "judgment" here. One is the ultimate/end-time judgment by God (which I don't believe will happen), then you have the judicial system of judgment, and lastly you have the prejudice people apply to other people. I think you have to separate them, since they're relating to different entities and therefore the term "judgment" means different things.

 

When the Bible talks about "do not judge" I believe it has to do with the personal prejudice towards others. And I agree that humans can't really be non-judgmental. We are judging things and other humans. We can't help it. However, we can try to minimize it, and be aware of that we do this, but we can never really get rid of it.

[Legion]

I think this is a good topic Yoyo. I’m just going to throw out a few thoughts.

 

If someone says that we should not judge then I think they are hypocrites. In effect, they are saying that judgment is bad, which is itself a judgment.

 

However, if someone says to me that judgment is best when it’s tempered with mercy, grace, or understanding then I am more likely to take them seriously.

[Abiyoyo]

We humans often make snap judgments of other people and other situations when we probably ought to think and reflect more first. Life is complex.

 

I agree. As one of the untold thoughts in my topic. Even when we think, devote time of meditation toward the judgment, or non-judgment of someone, to judge correctly; our judgment is vain. We don't know what the thoughts of anyone are which would make it impossible, right? Appearance could be judged, but then the mind also could be tricked. Example, man goes to grocery store in torn pants, dirty shirt, and holes in his shoes, and looks like he hasn't taken a bath in days. We say in passing by, wow, that guy stinks, and is pathetic, homeless, whatever. Right? The guy's house just burned to the ground with him running back into it saving his kids puppy, in the process hasn't taken a bath in days because he has been 24/7 for days searching his ruins for any savaged items. Not having time to fool with cleaning up, he runs to the store to buy batteries for his flashlight. So, the man is not any of those notions implied, yet we perceive things in our minds, and even act upon them at times. The action of the person judging has different attributes as well. Example, they may be extremist piety type, where they offer the man food, pay for whatever, etc. Then, you may have someone that is more assertive who says, Hey! Take a bath or something. Please! You stink. Another, like the prior may be more aggressive, even taunting the person, mocking him and sort. So, the variances of the people in the situation of judgment are many.

 

If Bible God made the right judgments, even according to his own ethical standards he set forth for humans, it would be different. As it is, he does not. Its all a big mystery why this God likes blood so much, yet he says to humans "do not kill".

 

I agree. I see it as pagan thought, and practice at the time that molded the religion of Judaism.

 

His judgments are not righteous. Yet he is supposed to know everything.

 

That's a broad topic altogether Deva Many variables there as well.

[Abiyoyo]

First I want to say Yoyo that I find your thoughts to be more intriguing nowadays. Good for you.

 

Then I want to point out one thing you have to think of in your post, which is that you're talking about different kinds of "judgment" here. One is the ultimate/end-time judgment by God (which I don't believe will happen), then you have the judicial system of judgment, and lastly you have the prejudice people apply to other people. I think you have to separate them, since they're relating to different entities and therefore the term "judgment" means different things.

 

To clarify, the application of the prejudice to other people of other people, in connection with the legal system, in connection to the Bible. Did that help?

When the Bible talks about "do not judge" I believe it has to do with the personal prejudice towards others. And I agree that humans can't really be non-judgmental. We are judging things and other humans. We can't help it. However, we can try to minimize it, and be aware of that we do this, but we can never really get rid of it.

 

Was just thinking more into that. Jesus judged during His ministry. So, if Jesus was God (even the OT God) in human form, then He judged the people according to the same God of the OT, which doesn't clarify much; because the OT God was pretty firm about His laws.

[Abiyoyo]

I think this is a good topic Yoyo. I’m just going to throw out a few thoughts.

 

If someone says that we should not judge then I think they are hypocrites. In effect, they are saying that judgment is bad, which is itself a judgment.

 

However, if someone says to me that judgment is best when it’s tempered with mercy, grace, or understanding then I am more likely to take them seriously.

 

Thanks, and I agree that judgment is a natural thing in humanity. Your last statement Legion, Why do you feel this way?

[Legion]

However, if someone says to me that judgment is best when it’s tempered with mercy, grace, or understanding then I am more likely to take them seriously.

Why do you feel this way?

Yoyo I think mainly it’s because we are always operating from some sort of perspective, which often carries with it some set of values. For instance, what if someone values science so dearly that they are compelled to judge art as worthless? This would be foolish to anyone who sees the value of art. However, if the one who values science had tempered his judgment with grace and understanding then his foolishness would not have been as great, right?

[Abiyoyo]

However, if someone says to me that judgment is best when it’s tempered with mercy, grace, or understanding then I am more likely to take them seriously.

Why do you feel this way?

Yoyo I think mainly it’s because we are always operating from some sort of perspective, which often carries with it some set of values. For instance, what if someone values science so dearly that they are compelled to judge art as worthless? This would be foolish to anyone who sees the value of art. However, if the one who values science had tempered his judgment with grace and understanding then his foolishness would not have been as great, right?

 

That is true Legion. For appearances, yet they may see the past those things, judging still.

[Legion]

I am curious Yoyo. Why did you start thinking about this?

[Abiyoyo]

I am curious Yoyo. Why did you start thinking about this?

 

My life

[Abiyoyo]

Life is a mirage of false presentations, only to be solidified, and made righteous by internal security.

 

I think I need to clarify my position, as my settings are changed (which is fine by me). But...I still need to clarify, so I might get a little off topic. I think paganism influenced the people of the OT thoughts, and in result, God used them in that capacity. I also believe that the descriptions of God in the OT are writer embellished more so than the actual attributes to a sovereign, omni God. There are also attributes of the opposite spectrum in the OT of God in a better light (deep in the depths of the OT :wink: ). So, when I said that about the OT God in an earlier post it was meant more as an observation of scriptures of the OT, rather than what I think of the OT God. I believe Jesus Christ was real, and was the One, to make a way for all mankind to see the One true God, and that he was sent by the God of Israel.

 

I also believe that Christianity early was influenced by Greek philosophy, as that was their capacity then. Yet, it is all different. I believe it is not fully paganism, nor fully Greek philosophy, because other gods were tied into these forms of rituals. Just wanted to clarify.

[florduh]

The Bible doesn't really say to not judge. The verse to which you refer admonishes the followers to judge others by the criteria they themselves would be judged by.

 

Matthew 7

 

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

 

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

So if one is spiritually "right" he is in a position to judge and correct others.

 

 

There are many references to judging.

 

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa 37:30)

 

"With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth." (Psa 119:13)

 

"Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." (Prov 31:9)

 

Jesus commended Simon, "Thou hast rightly judged." (Luke 7:43)

 

"Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt show her all her abominations." (Ezek 22:2)

 

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15)

 

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Cor 6:2)

 

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Cor 6:3)

[Abiyoyo]

The Bible doesn't really say to not judge. The verse to which you refer admonishes the followers to judge others by the criteria they themselves would be judged by.

 

 

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

I see this verse as Jesus urging people not to judge, or be holy enough to judge because it will be judged back?

[Neon Genesis]

Firstly, there is no Bible God. This god does not exist.

 

Sure we judge all the time. We humans often make snap judgments of other people and other situations when we probably ought to think and reflect more first. Life is complex. If Bible God made the right judgments, even according to his own ethical standards he set forth for humans, it would be different. As it is, he does not. Its all a big mystery why this God likes blood so much, yet he says to humans "do not kill".

 

His judgments are not righteous. Yet he is supposed to know everything.

I agree with this. The problem is not so much judgment but making bad judgment. Like when the bible God and many xtians judge people for things that aren't all that important, like eating shellfish, turning a light switch on when it's Saturday, or not belonging to the one true religion. The god of the bible is not judging out of wisdom but out of foolishness and that's the real problem at hand with his judgments.

[Abiyoyo]

I also ran across this, and wonder if Jesus is really implying that the Jews were wrong about there God?

Mark 12:19-27

 

19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

That is the question to Jesus from a Sadducee.

 

 

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

 

Jesus said he was wrong, and doesn't know the scriptures or power of God.

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Jesus said we are like the angels, no relations.

 

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Jesus 'questions' the man about the burning bush. Why?

 

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Jesus said he isnot the God of the dead, but the God of the living! Did anyone else get that? What the heck did that have to do with who was gonna be married in heaven? Why would Jesus have said that God was the God of the living?

 

The question was not about resurrection itself, but about what will be in resurrection!

Jesus just said that the Sadducee's God was the God of the living, just the living! And Jesus, and His Father would be the God of the dead!

 

What are your thoughts? Jesus was always roasting the Pharisee's and Sadducee's, in judgment.

[Deva]

Jesus said he isnot the God of the dead, but the God of the living! Did anyone else get that?

 

Glad you brought that up yoyo.

 

Yes, god is not the god of the dead according to Jesus. Yet another example of why present day "Christianity" is perverted. Its always threats of hell and judgment. Its all "are you saved" if you are evangelical protestant - what do they mean by that? Saved from sin and hell, of course. Its all geared toward the next life and not this one.

[Abiyoyo]

Jesus said he isnot the God of the dead, but the God of the living! Did anyone else get that?

 

Glad you brought that up yoyo.

 

Yes, god is not the god of the dead according to Jesus. Yet another example of why present day "Christianity" is perverted. Its always threats of hell and judgment. Its all "are you saved" if you are evangelical protestant - what do they mean by that? Saved from sin and hell, of course. Its all geared toward the next life and not this one.

 

Good thought Deva. So, the real question to that is what is hell? That's my next Gnostic venture

[mwc]

[snip - question on 7 brothers]

Sadducee's didn't believe in any such things so why would they bother with this line of questioning? Just for fun? Or just so jesus could have a little speech? I'm guessing the latter.

 

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Jesus said we are like the angels, no relations.

And this is mentioned in the scriptures where exactly? No where. That's where. What is mentioned in the scriptures that horny angels bang cute humans and giant babies pop out. I guess we can assume they didn't marry before hand.

 

Jesus said he isnot the God of the dead, but the God of the living! Did anyone else get that? What the heck did that have to do with who was gonna be married in heaven? Why would Jesus have said that God was the God of the living?

 

The question was not about resurrection itself, but about what will be in resurrection!

Jesus just said that the Sadducee's God was the God of the living, just the living! And Jesus, and His Father would be the God of the dead!

 

What are your thoughts? Jesus was always roasting the Pharisee's and Sadducee's, in judgment.

Because this is isn't about someone sitting down taking dictation but someone creating a work where along comes the "adversary" who sets up jesus with some sort of situation or question so he can deliver a message. It's not uncommon though for some reason when it comes to old jesus people think it's unique.

 

Beyond that it demonstrates that the author did not believe in an afterlife. He believed in just plain old life. So when you died you "slept." (The idea of sleep and death being related is very ancient) Don't forget all the injunctions against touching dead things unless you absolutely had to and even then you became unpure for a time. Why would the "god" that handed those rules down want to be around death anymore than those lower creatures he gave those rules to? He wouldn't. He doesn't deal with that. He deals with life. So to work around this you have the resurrection. A coming back to life. When that happens then "god" will be your pal again. If he's a "god" worth his salt he should be able to manage this trick so anyone who is alive, and those who return back to life (by his choice), will be his chose ones. Then he'll be their "god." Just like in Egypt when he chose that group to call out from there. Same thing. So why worry about the dead? They don't matter. Only the living are of any concern (and that includes those who are brought back).

 

mwc

[chefranden]

People have to judge because they can't get all the information needed to make a decision perfectly. Life needs to move on. Life has built in time limits for gathering information. Therefore decisions are almost always based on partial and even shoddy information, like judging the dirty guy above. I can't take the time to know everybody I may meet or see. Therefore I make judgments based on appearance. Most people attend to their appearance for just this reason. Some people wear costumes to illicit responses from other including negative responses: punks, goths, and skinheads for example.

 

Judge not that ye may not be judged is mostly a crock. You will be judged anyway, because people have to. The judgment will often be a false negative, because that is the safest judgment from an evolutionary perspective.

[Abiyoyo]

Sadducee's didn't believe in any such things so why would they bother with this line of questioning? Just for fun? Or just so jesus could have a little speech? I'm guessing the latter.

I would assume to see if He was a Pharisee Is that what the Pharisee believed?

 

And this is mentioned in the scriptures where exactly? No where. That's where. What is mentioned in the scriptures that horny angels bang cute humans and giant babies pop out. I guess we can assume they didn't marry before hand.

 

YoYo- Jesus said he isn't the God of the dead, but the God of the living! Did anyone else get that? What the heck did that have to do with who was gonna be married in heaven? Why would Jesus have said that God was the God of the living?

The question was not about resurrection itself, but about what will be in resurrection!

Jesus just said that the Sadducee's God was the God of the living, just the living! And Jesus, and His Father would be the God of the dead!

What are your thoughts? Jesus was always roasting the Pharisee's and Sadducee's, in judgment.

 

MWC- Because this is isn't about someone sitting down taking dictation but someone creating a work where along comes the "adversary" who sets up jesus with some sort of situation or question so he can deliver a message. It's not uncommon though for some reason when it comes to old jesus people think it's unique.

It's just as 'unique' as any other writing I have read from that time frame.

 

Beyond that it demonstrates that the author did not believe in an afterlife. He believed in just plain old life. So when you died you "slept." (The idea of sleep and death being related is very ancient)

Jesus, eternal life, bread of life.....same author

 

Don't forget all the injunctions against touching dead things unless you absolutely had to and even then you became unpure for a time. Why would the "god" that handed those rules down want to be around death anymore than those lower creatures he gave those rules to?

That's a good point toward Gnostic view.

 

He wouldn't. He doesn't deal with that. He deals with life. So to work around this you have the resurrection. A coming back to life. When that happens then "god" will be your pal again. If he's a "god" worth his salt he should be able to manage this trick so anyone who is alive, and those who return back to life (by his choice), will be his chose ones. Then he'll be their "god."

A true Gnostic indeed!

 

Just like in Egypt when he chose that group to call out from there. Same thing. So why worry about the dead? They don't matter. Only the living are of any concern (and that includes those who are brought back).

According to Gnostic, that was the idea