dB-Paradox Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, was the fact that Christ's message could not have reached all people on time. Jesus said that he was the the only way to the father. If this be true, what do you think happened to, say, the North American Indians from the time Christ made his appearance in the middle east to the time the gospel reached North America some 1500 years later? That's a lot of souls who did not have Christ in their lives. Any suggestions or explanations to this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Well, according to the book of Mormon, the message of Christ DID reach the native Americans prior to his ascension to heaven. But anyway, other Christians have said that since the knowledge of right and wrong are inherent in all people, those people actually got judged on their Actions. This has more than once led to the question of why anyone would spread the gospel, if it interfered with people's ability to live good lives, and make it into heaven on merit, not belief? Other Christians, realizing the preceding explanation led to the aforementioned follow-up question, have declined to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The good book says they deserve what they get cuz they rejected the true creator. The Mormons have preached so much crap about Jesus being here just after the resurrection, I met a lady that believed Jesus appeared to the Indians and saved many. The Mormons have the Book of Nephi that explains how the lost tribe of Israel came to America and yadda, yadda, yadda, God turned the Indian red cuz they killed them all off and that is what made it easier for good Mormon girls and boys to take the land in Utah from the Indian! That's what made their religon grow was their rant against Indians. Or so I've heard. However, in the real world, think about those who perished before Iesus was born, they did not get in on the goodies either. The babble says a person that does not know God, refuses to believe because he has been blinded by sin, and willfully rejects Christ. According to the babble, those who do not know God or Iesus are bound for hell. I have a hard time reconciling anything with what is written in the babble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 That is because it was written by people who believed that that little region was the entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, was the fact that Christ's message could not have reached all people on time. Jesus said that he was the the only way to the father. If this be true, what do you think happened to, say, the North American Indians from the time Christ made his appearance in the middle east to the time the gospel reached North America some 1500 years later? That's a lot of souls who did not have Christ in their lives. Any suggestions or explanations to this problem? This is what put me on the path to deconversion, the idea that people would go to hell, just because they had not heard about Jesus. But more than that, that they might be the kindest, loving, generous people in the world, but just because they worshipped the "wrong" god or didn't believe at all, they would be subject to the same torment as the most evil people, but even the most wicked didn't deserve never ending torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, was the fact that Christ's message could not have reached all people on time. Jesus said that he was the the only way to the father. If this be true, what do you think happened to, say, the North American Indians from the time Christ made his appearance in the middle east to the time the gospel reached North America some 1500 years later? That's a lot of souls who did not have Christ in their lives. Any suggestions or explanations to this problem? Well Paradox, that's my contingency with the deal of Jesus or hell. You are right. The NT says He is the only way, the life, etc. Then, you have the Gnostic view which is similar, except it debunks the whole OT God as evil in a sense. The sad part is that you have some Christians that will even be as ridiculous to say that those Indians went to hell, I have heard it myself. But, keep in mind, the sects of Christianity fight amongst themselves about the correct doctrine. There are some who think Catholics are going to hell. I spoke to a person once who said Catholics are all going to hell because they haven't received the Holy Spirit. I asked where did they learn that. The answer was, from my preacher. Well, the preacher is wrong, because that is why confirmation is in the Catholic church. Supposedly, you are Christened as a baby, child; then later near adolescence, they are confirmed through Confirmation to recieve the Holy Spirit. The education of Christianity is deluded into seminary that teaches doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, was the fact that Christ's message could not have reached all people on time. Jesus said that he was the the only way to the father. If this be true, what do you think happened to, say, the North American Indians from the time Christ made his appearance in the middle east to the time the gospel reached North America some 1500 years later? That's a lot of souls who did not have Christ in their lives. Any suggestions or explanations to this problem? Don't forget all the people before the Flood, before Jesus, and that there's roughly 4 billion people today who are not Christians. Notice, 65% of the world is not Christian. And then think about how sectarian most Churches are. They say for instance that the Catholics will go to Hell too, and the Russian Orthodox, the Coptic, the XZY (put in any Church that doesn't agree with the speaker). So in the end, you will have about maybe, perhaps, 100,000 to 1,000,000 in one denomination who thinks they are the Chosen One. But then if you start asking around, Bob thinks that Larry is a sinner and will go to Hell, and Mary believes Annie is a backslider. Then we might end up with just a few thousand, and of course then we have to check how many of them truly believe the exact dogma the Church is behind, and we'll end up with about 100 or less. And then again, you'll ask around, and most likely each and every person thinks that he is the one who got it right, and all the others got it wrong. Isn't that interesting? It's the same phenomenon I saw in driving school, you know the one you can go to because you've been speeding , and the teacher asked everyone to rate their own driving skills from 1 to 10. 10 being an excellent driver, and 1 being totally crappy, and then of course 5 should be the average driver. So if you think you're better than the average, rate higher than 5, and vice versa. Now, then he checked the numbers. No one rated lower than 6. Which means, the average driver consider himself to be better than the average driver. And that's how religion goes. The average believer, believes he got it more accurate, more correct, closer to the truth, and have a better chance of Heaven, then the other "average" believer. If they're right, then God will be lonely, since everyone but one person have completely wrong beliefs. Some Christians can see through this though and realize that God (if he exists) must be a lot more forgiving and a lot less rigid in his judgment. When I was Christian, I wasn't perfect, but somehow I believed that God would overlook some of my faults, because I believed in Jesus. But how is that okay? How can belief be the deciding factor? How do you know if you believe or not, and if your belief is correct? Is it enough to believe that you're saved, or do you have to believe Jesus was 5' 3"? How much and what do you have to believe to get the free ride to Heaven? It's very unclear. If you believe that Jesus was risen from the dead only in spirit, and not in body, does that mean you're going to Hell? If you believe Jesus was not part of the trinity, but only a God filled prophet, but yet his death is saving you from Hell, are you going to Hell or Heaven for that? So basically, in the end, if God exists, the rules are subjective to God only, and our belief or non-belief might not have anything at all to do with it. It might be that he wants us to use our brains! And whoever use the brain best will have the best seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I asked my mom about this when I was a kid and she gave me this stupid answer, but I forget what it was. I asked her about people like the ancient Greeks and Romans and other pagans who lived before xianity came into existence and caught on.There are people who live in places where missionaries haven't gotten to, and I wondered what happened to them, too. I agree that if they preach that god and Jesus are the only way to eternal life in heaven and all those who don't know him or follow him go to hell, then all of those people went to hell just because of their own ignorance. Just goes to show you how sadistic this religion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy79 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 My Southern Baptist family always told me that nobody has an excuse not to know about God because all you have to do is look at the sky to know there is a God. If you have never heard of Jesus, though, that's not your fault, so you can't be held accountable for that...Just passing on what I was told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, was the fact that Christ's message could not have reached all people on time. Jesus said that he was the the only way to the father. If this be true, what do you think happened to, say, the North American Indians from the time Christ made his appearance in the middle east to the time the gospel reached North America some 1500 years later? That's a lot of souls who did not have Christ in their lives. Any suggestions or explanations to this problem? I'm going to dodge your question a bit because as you say, if this be true, then there's a problem of lost souls that never heard of Jesus. If you believe in Yahweh and if you believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, then the claim made by Jesus is flawed and isn't true. The Hebrew scriptures state quite clearly that each person dies for their own sins and saves themselves by repenting and obeying the law of God. (Ezek 18:20-27) There is no "Jesus" or "Christ" needed for people to acquire salvation. There is no vicarious human sin sacrifice needed, nor is such a sacrifice even valid under the law of God. Since I don't know how seriously you take the "Old Testament", I can only suggest that if it is to be taken seriously, then the problem you've raised is based on a faulty assumption right from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 A visiting Christian, LNC, asserts that he has "heard many stories of people living in remote areas with no Christian influence coming to trust in Jesus through dreams and visions. Abraham was just such a person who lived in a remote pagan culture and to whom God spoke directly." I wonder if some of those cases are based on biased interpretations? For instance, some remote native tribe in the deep jungle have some religious beliefs about the white magical gerbil who died in some story at the hand of some god, and every time they hunt and kill a gerbil and drink the blood, there spirit gets rejuvenated by the powers from that god. Now the shaman smoke some nice leafs and get high. He has some dreams and visions about the Magical Gerbil and its death. Now, it would be easy to find connection points in the story with the Jesus story, so did the shaman dream about Jesus, or did he dream about a typical religious story which were vague enough so it could be re-applied to the Jesus story? I suspect many of those stories about remote people having dreams about Jesus didn't dream specifically about Jesus or the Gospel story, but rather about something relating to their own religion, and there were points which could be connected. Religious people tend to see what they want to see, and Christians really want their belief to be true, so they turn themselves blind to the obvious differences in this case, and forget the gerbil, but remembers the blood, and god, and spirit, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I wonder if some of those cases are based on biased interpretations? I have heard of stories of this nature. Why would Jesus say go preach to all people, if He would implement these situations. Most of the ones that I hear are usually in areas where there isn't a heavy Christian religion, yet, their are evangelists, or T.V. etc. Maybe it's the intense evangelism in the last 100 years that is closing the gap to civilization and Armageddon, and Jesus is sending visions, dreams, like Peter said He would in Acts? ....or maybe the gerbil thing Religious people tend to see what they want to see, and Christians really want their belief to be true, so they turn themselves blind to the obvious differences in this case, and forget the gerbil, but remembers the blood, and god, and spirit, etc. True for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 True for some. I think it's true for many. Sure, some might not be that blinded by their belief, but I suspect most are. It's human to do that, and it's not only religious, but any person who gets involved in some form of ideological thinking. When the "thing" becomes the only "true thing", people tend to forget to be critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Something which has bothered me for many years, even as a devout Christian in my early adulthood, ... John's Jesus doesn't cut any slack, but notice that Matthew's Jesus doesn't mention anything about belief in his picture of the last Judgment. Matt. 25:31-46 It appears from this that you are responsible for your own salvation, just like Ezekiel explains in his chapter 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Interesting points! I really am not that familiar with the Bible. I'm not an avid reader. But it's nice to get these things pointed out. One thing's for sure...the Bible is getting more and more complicated with each and every verse I read! I realize my first post seems a bit trivial at first, but it does beg the question, why did God choose only one nation to correspond with? Why does He have a chosen people? It almost seems like the Israelites made up an all-powerful god who favored them to feel important. Kinda like a group of unpopular kids making up an imaginary friend because they want to feel more important than the popular kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I've heard from someone on here that the Israelites are god's chosen people because they wrote the bible, which makes sense. I mean, it's the same for every other holy book, right? If Americans wrote the bible, then it would say that America is god's chosen land and Americans are god's chosen people. Of course, some believe this even though it's nowhere in the bible at all, so maybe every nation thinks that they are god's chosen nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Interesting points! I really am not that familiar with the Bible. I'm not an avid reader. But it's nice to get these things pointed out. One thing's for sure...the Bible is getting more and more complicated with each and every verse I read! I realize my first post seems a bit trivial at first, but it does beg the question, why did God choose only one nation to correspond with? Why does He have a chosen people? It almost seems like the Israelites made up an all-powerful god who favored them to feel important. Kinda like a group of unpopular kids making up an imaginary friend because they want to feel more important than the popular kids. That's exactly what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 And if the Christian Bible were written by Americans, America would be the chosen nation. There are segments of the population that do think that America is God's chosen nation for the Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Interesting points! I really am not that familiar with the Bible. I'm not an avid reader. But it's nice to get these things pointed out. One thing's for sure...the Bible is getting more and more complicated with each and every verse I read! I realize my first post seems a bit trivial at first, but it does beg the question, why did God choose only one nation to correspond with? Why does He have a chosen people? It almost seems like the Israelites made up an all-powerful god who favored them to feel important. Kinda like a group of unpopular kids making up an imaginary friend because they want to feel more important than the popular kids. You had best be careful then if you want to retain your faith. Reading the Bible is a powerful tool in breaking the chains of faith and Christianity. Reading the Bible is one of the prime reasons why I am no longer a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Interesting points! I really am not that familiar with the Bible. I'm not an avid reader. But it's nice to get these things pointed out. One thing's for sure...the Bible is getting more and more complicated with each and every verse I read! I realize my first post seems a bit trivial at first, but it does beg the question, why did God choose only one nation to correspond with? Why does He have a chosen people? It almost seems like the Israelites made up an all-powerful god who favored them to feel important. Kinda like a group of unpopular kids making up an imaginary friend because they want to feel more important than the popular kids. You probably aren't familiar with Church history either. There was a time when the Church did not let the laity read the bible. People that tried to translate the bible into the vernacular were burned at the stake for a time during the early portion of the reformation. The bible was always in short supply before the press was invented, so most Christians had no opportunity to know it. As an Ex-minister I can tell you that most Christians do not read their bibles or do so selectively. The Bible is often touted as a best seller. It is a best seller that is never read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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