Guilt, Conscience, Sin

[sergei29]

Hey guys,

 

so I've been thinking...according to the Christian theology one of the ways that God testifies to us about His exists is by giving us a conscience that tells us when we do wrong. It's considered to be a work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin and lead us to repentance...

 

and here is my question to the ex-Christians here, where do you think that guilt actually comes from? For example, as a teenager I have been experiencing a lot of guilt about sex related issues (you know what they are, there are few of them) but the thing is that my parents never told me not to do/think/watch stuff and I wasn't raised in a church. Now, after I have de-converted first week was a guilt free ride, but now I am back to having that guilt about certain topics of sexuality (and not just sexuality, also swearing, smoking for example). If I don't believe in a Christian God anymore, why should I experience that guilt, and why did I have it even before I starter attending church and reading the Bible...

 

anyone else have thought about the origin of guilt/conscience? A Christian will right away point to God convicting us of sin, but if we don't believe that, what's the explanation?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Ouroboros]

It's a good question, and I will give you my opinion of how I think it works.

 

First of all I think most people are born with the ability to learn what is right and wrong. Not necessarily there is a lot of congenial ability to know what specifically is right or wrong, but the ability to feel guilt, or pleasure, or joy, etc is there. Some fundamental principles might exist, like a distaste for certain things like hurting other people etc, could be already there.

 

But when you grow up, your family first, then your friends, and then society/school etc, train you for what is acceptable and what is not, and this becomes a part of the schema in your mind for what you feel good about doing, or what you feel guilt about.

 

So basically, it's multiple systems that comes together in what you consider the "feeling of guilt."

[sergei29]

interesting...i guess that could explain why some people feel no guilt and others extreme guilt over the same issue.

even now, as a non-Christian, i feel guilt about certain issues, despite the fact that I feel like I shouldn't because it is not hurting anyone. Same in my pre-Christian years, there was no obvious reason for me to feel that why, but somehow i did.

[Guest algorithm]

interesting...i guess that could explain why some people feel no guilt and others extreme guilt over the same issue.

even now, as a non-Christian, i feel guilt about certain issues, despite the fact that I feel like I shouldn't because it is not hurting anyone. Same in my pre-Christian years, there was no obvious reason for me to feel that why, but somehow i did.

I question whether the things you just posted wouldn't hurt anyone. Smoking can kill u (and the people around u), swearing is generally meant to hurt and/or degrade, and there are certainly consequences to unattached sex (both physical and emotional)

[mwc]

Guilt is a side-effect of empathy. No empathy equals no guilt. This is why people are usually pretty "nice" in person but the same people can be total jerks on the internet. The internet removes the cues that allow for empathy to kick in and no guilt for their "bad" behavior. I believe there was a study on this recently but I could be mistaken.

 

Sin is a made up religious construct.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

Guilt is a side-effect of empathy. No empathy equals no guilt.

 

In some cases. Not all. Guilt can also be a learned trait. Feeling guilty for desiring a beautiful woman is not epithetic. It's the result of dogma. Whereas guilt for killing someone is the result of empathy and potentially dogma as well.

[mwc]

In some cases. Not all. Guilt can also be a learned trait. Feeling guilty for desiring a beautiful woman is not epithetic. It's the result of dogma. Whereas guilt for killing someone is the result of empathy and potentially dogma as well.

Hmmm. True. But I think you're still empathizing. Once dogma is instilled and you violated the rules then you empathize with the authority figure(s) up to and including the "god" itself (which is why, I think, having a nice human form "jesus" is important as opposed to an unknowable "god"). You lust after that woman and then you feel guilt. You violated the trust between you and your pal "jesus." Now you "atone" or "apologize" (via prayer or whatever") to make up for what you did. Not against the woman but against the "god" that wasn't even involved to begin with. But you "know" the "god" was upset by your actions. That's empathy. If you don't think the "god" is upset you just continue about your business with no guilt.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

Good point. Somehow I always thought of empathy as being an inherently good trait (it's absence would be sociopathy). In your example it becomes somewhat neutralized.

[oddbird1963]

Serge129

 

I too think you ask an excellent question. And the answers I have seen on this website do a great job of explaining. I think Stephen Pinker and others have pointed out that we are most strongly influenced by our peer group growing up, so it is reasonable to assume that we get our sense of right and wrong from the community around us. Somewhere, you may have absorbed some theologically or mythology based morals that serve as the source of your guilt.

 

I think the strength of the guilt also depends on how wired up for guilt you tend to be. By that, I mean is it in your personality to be a little over responsible and over guilty anyway?

 

I think the way out of non-reality based guilt is to be reflective and maintain a healthy internal dialog. Reason through the guilt feelings and re- frame the issues into a reality based method of thinking.

[mwc]

Good point. Somehow I always thought of empathy as being an inherently good trait (it's absence would be sociopathy). In your example it becomes somewhat neutralized.

It's a necessary trait but it's obvious one that people can take advantage of for their own purposes. I think it's no secret that religion has tapped into many basic human emotions and twisted them to their own advantage. I would also think that if a person is overly empathetic then they'd become crippled in their ability to function. The ability to empathize is important but ultimately being able to know when to put the other person first, or yourself first, is vital to living without going crazy, isn't it? I think religion tries very hard to instill ideas like the "golden rule" to such a degree that it interferes with the "normal" processing in the brain and essentially "cripples" more than a few people.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

You're on fire today MWC. At least you've made me think two times.

[Guest algorithm]

Good point. Somehow I always thought of empathy as being an inherently good trait (it's absence would be sociopathy). In your example it becomes somewhat neutralized.

Not that it matters really. But I just thought I'd mention that the actual text book definition of empathy isn't the ability to feel what another is feeling but the ability to know what they are feeling. Therefore, sociopaths actually score very high on the empathy quotient.Definition of Empathy The ability to take actually know and feel someone else's feelings is technically "sympathy"(empathic concern).Definition of Sympathy

[Guest ikant]

I think that guilt is a multifaceted interpretation of complex emotions. Much of what everyone has said so far are components of this process. Guilt is simply a false metaphysical interpretation used to connote a strong sense that something is wrong with an individual based on emotions whose purpose is simply to slow us down in order to cease from hasty actions. Guilt itself is not an emotion, it is an interpretation. Feeling bad is natural. As others have pointed out, empathy is the ability to imagine what it feels like for others when they are hurting. If we have hurt them, feeling bad is natural and should be used as a tool to help us right the harm we have caused. We can do this because we know what it feels like to hurt. Guilt is what we associate our negative feelings in relation to our interpersonal relationships. These usually stem from a sense of inadequacy, e.g., our parents telling us we are not good enough, or the realization or belief that we are not as successful as those around us. In response we feel bad. We feel bad because we believe we are not accepted or good enough. When we believe that the reason we are not valuable has something to do with us, vis a vis our feelings of inadequacy based on what we have learned, we become more self centered due to feelings of isolation. In an attempt to escape this isolationist trap, we fight with ourselves, thinking that we can somehow overcome the "evil" that is within us. This struggle is illusory and therefore unwinnable. Religion, attempts to deal with this problem with the use of symbols, e.g., the cross. The problem with christianity is that it never confronts the actual problem, the falseness of the idea that is guilt. Instead of being forgiven, we need to realize that guilt is a faulty defense mechanism. A mechanism rooted in the failure of others, our biology, and our misunderstanding of the positive effects of feeling bad about something, vis a vis empathy.

[Mike D]

I don't feel guilt.

 

When I do something (anything), it is for a reason and my reasons are always justified, at least by me. Of course in someone else's mind I might be doing something wrong, but that isn't going to make me feel guilty. Why should it? If I do something and I feel "bad" afterward it isn't because I feel guilty - if I feel anything negative at all it's usually a feeling of fear (of being caught, like when I was younger if my parents caught me drinking or something), or I might feel regret if I what I did had some unforseen or uncalculated adverse affect on me or someone else. But guilt? Nope.

 

Having said all that I don't think it's something everyone is conditioned to. In my opinion "guilt" is nothing more than a learned reaction to someone else's judgement passed on you whether by parents, authority, god(s), whatever....

 

edit: It did occur to me that when I was a Christian I tried to feel "guilty" when I "sinned" but the only reason for that was because I thought there was some invisible dude in the sky that could read my every thought and so I had no choice. But it wasn't a natural feeling, it was a forced "compliance" sort of thing.