How Gaychristian.net Turned Me (ameen) Into An Atheist

[pitchu]

Well, a little wedge of an opening, letting in a tiny slice of light, is better than nothing at this early juncture, right, Ameen? Let's hope good contact and understanding follow.

[Seeker630]

For those mentioning the UUA, the congregation I belonged to is very pro gay, and so is the overall church. I seem to recall that they have an official position paper to that effect. Somebody else mentioned they the UUA may be leaning a little more to theism than they used to. I was told the one I was at was approximately 35-40% agnostics and atheists. My experience there pretty much confirmed that. Now understand that UU's can vary a good bit from one congregation to another. Mine was quite liberal in their politics and social views. There is another, larger UU church in Sarasota, and the minister there when I was actively attending UU was an openly gay man who lived with his partner.

 

Others lean a little more to Christianity, although it would be very liberal. I've never heard of a UU group that was anything near right-wing. Now just before I stopped attending there about 4 years ago, the president of the UUA was a black guy by the last name of Singleton I think. I believe he was the one who started talking about UU's going back to their Christian roots. So maybe that's where that impression came from. And as someone else mentioned------no UUA is not a specifically Christian denomination, even though the old Unitarians and Universalists both had Christian origins. They joined forces in 1965, and then became the Unitarian Universalist Association.

 

As far as UCC goes, for anyone in here who doesn't already know, the head of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State is the Rev. Barry Lynn. Many of you have seen him on TV interviews refuting one uber right wingreligious issue or another. Rev Lynn is a UCC ordained minister. He had a parish at one time but had to give it up when AU started demanding more and more of his time. I once went to see him speak at a function at the Unitarian church in Sarasota, about 25 miles from where I live. Wonderful man to listen to. Needless to say I am a card carrying supporter and member of AU, and a lot of their support for the work they do comes from atheists and agnostics, in addition to Christians and others who are concerned about the religious right. They are right up there with the ACLU and FFRF at the forefront in legal actions over CSS issues. So yes---United Church of Christ is very pro-gay. In fact aren't they the ones that ran TV ads last year or so depicting them as accepting gays as congregants? Or was that the UU's. It's been a while since I've seen those ads.

 

On a related note, I have belonged to a number of discussion boards devoted primarily to non-believers over the last 10 years. Without exception they have all been overwhelmingly very pro-gay rights. It is a source of pride with me that as a group, atheists and agnostics lean to the left on a lot of political and social issues.

 

As for the MCC---I was told once that they are not a specifically gay denomination, they have a mixed membership, but are openly gay-friendly, and some congregations may have a mostly gay membership. I've never been to one so I can't really say any more than that.

[ShackledNoMore]

Wow, it seems like gaychristian.net is another place where sexuality becomes a casualty of religion. That's an especially awful thing when your religion takes aim at homosexuality and you're gay. Sounds like a formula for self loathing to me--not constructive, but I can see how the site might have some diminished support role just by being there, although acceptable discussion material does seem ironically limited. I too, am surprised that there is not a greater "Side B" contingency. Please try not to stress too much over anything Justin did, does, or says--he has proven to not be a very decent sort. It sickens me to see the reception you got there when you came not just for support, but also with a very generous mindset of helping others there (and really helping them, through deeds and words with well thought out advice).

 

Sorry to chime in with this so late, it's been too many days since I browsed the "Testimonies" forum.

[Ameen]

Thank you very, very, very, much QuidEstCaritas?, pitchu, and ShackledNoMore. I really appreciate the sentiments.

 

It has been six days since I replied to Justin's e-mail, the one in which he offered to discuss the letter publically. For this reason, I have just resent my reply.

 

Very interesting information, Seeker630!

 

"Please try not to stress too much..." is sound advice, ShackledNoMore, but look who you're talking to. Stress is my middle name, as is OCD. Thank you for understanding that I wanted to help others on GCN, although I did come off too strongly and defensively there.

[Ameen]

It's been more than a week since Justin expressed his willingness to discuss the issues in public, and he has not responded to my e-mail or unfrozen my account. This is so discouraging. For a minute I thought I could actually start to heal from some of the abuse I suffered at the hands of Christians and also help a few people on GCN chill out, but instead I just get to continue carrying my wounds around for life.

 

I have been tracking down some of the e-mail addresses of other members and asking them to remind Justin, but they haven't responded either.

 

Maybe there is a reason: Easter, a family emergency... I hope so. (Not that I hope he had an emergency. I hope there is an honorable reason for his lack of response.)

 

Can you believe that after all this time I still expect Fundie Christians to practice what they preach and be honorable? If I had no intention of allowing someone to speak, I'd grow some balls and simply tell the person no. That hurts less.

 

If you're curious about what Justin looks like, here's his Amazon profile. His photo is on the upper left, and he is wearing a blue shirt: http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3VSFRQS311JB6

 

Also, here's his Wikipedia entry (no picture): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_W._Lee

[noob]

Ameen, when you started down this path of contacting Justin, I wanted to jump in and suggest that you might be opening yourself up to additional hurt. I too hope that there is an honorable reason for his lack of response. However, at this point, I cannot resist the urge to caution you against giving him any power to hurt you again. I wish that you did not need to “go back” to GCN and rehash the history in order to heal your wounds. I understand the desire to do so, and to be able to help others, but in my mind it just does not seem like a safe approach.

 

I know you recognize the danger because you state:

I may be opening myself up to abuse, I realize, but if it means I can get the word out I'll just put up with depression and whatever else comes my way. If some of those bozos can learn to treat vulnerable people with a little more kindness, it is worth it.

 

... but still, I feel concerned. Perhaps I am just overly cautious and it will turn into a postive experience for you. I certainly hope so!!!

 

On a side note, after viewing his picture, I know why he was not nice in the past. Jealousy, pure jealousy!

[Seeker630]

It's been more than a week since Justin expressed his willingness to discuss the issues in public, and he has not responded to my e-mail or unfrozen my account. This is so discouraging. For a minute I thought I could actually start to heal from some of the abuse I suffered at the hands of Christians and also help a few people on GCN chill out, but instead I just get to continue carrying my wounds around for life.

 

Ameen, I am going to say something some of the others in here have snipped at. You have issues of your own right now. You have been badly hurt by Christianity. This GCN thing is becoming too big an issue with you IMO. Now of course I don't know you well, so I could be out of line here, and if you think I am then say so---you won't hurt my feelings. Really But right now may not be the time for you to take on the burden of trying to heal the wounds of the entire Christian gay community. No one person can do that, and it appears that trying to do so is just digging the hole deeper for you. You need to start focusing on yourself more. You can't do everything for everybody.

[ShackledNoMore]

I know that you probably already know this, but it bears being said for reinforcement.

 

Justin is who he is. There is nothing you can do to make him an honorable person. There is nothing you can do to make him compassionate. Nor can you throw reason at him and force him to to acknowledge, no more than you can talk to a homophobe or bigot and have him see the error in his ways, or talk science and bible with a fundy and turn him into an unbeliever, or convince someone to stop drinking, or convince a clerk at the nearest 7-11 to turn over a new leaf, having established himself as a rude oaf. If Justin ever were to change, he would have to do it, no one else in the world could make it happen.

 

Justin has his own figurative demons he has to be at odds with. I see from the wikipedia article that he was raised a Southern Baptist. How does one reconcile his own homosexuality after THAT, while still clinging to xianity and still believing? It makes everything you have said in this thread stand to reason. No doubt, on many levels, through the mental gymnastics he must negotiate, he believes he is doing a great service for the gay-christian community, and he is honorable and he is compassionate. Not that I should be playing pop psychologist for a third party I don't even know, but I'm sure he struggles dearly on slightly deeper levels than his conscious self-talk. I think it's as though he has to be a zealot, of sorts, to keep it together and manage his inner conflict.

 

For him to reach out for an olive branch and to start the healing process is something simply beyond your control, beyond anyone's control, and I think almost certainly out of character for him. He does not deserve to be the unwitting recipient of the power to hurt you so.

[Ameen]

Edited by me (Ameen) to include a response to ShackledNoMore:

 

ShackledNoMore: I wrote my post while you were writing yours, and for that reason the issues you brought up are not addressed after the dashes in my (labelled) original post.

 

Yes, you have definitely described Justin. Five years ago, when we talked on the phone and he described some things I don't feel at liberty to repeat here, I really felt sorry for him. I dislike what he has done to me and how he rules GCN with an iron fist, but I don't think he is all bad. He is as much a victim of Christianity as I. Since he's still young (very early 30s now, 26 or 27 when I was on GCN), maybe one day reason will knock at his door. I doubt he'll ever be an atheist, but I think he can become more moderate with age and experience.

 

He does not deserve to be the unwitting recipient of the power to hurt you so.

 

This last sentence in your post is absolutely true. I give him too much power in my own mind, and I am at fault. Some of that is explained in my post (the part after the dashes); some of it is just my own flaws.

 

------------------

 

MY ORIGINAL POST:

 

You are not at all out of line, Seeker630; I am not above criticism and I admire your honesty.

 

Thank you, noob and Seeker630. The events on GCN were five years ago, but they still feel as if they happened yesterday. (This is partly an OCD thing, unfortunately. They would feel the same way fifty years from now unless I resolved them.) I have done wonders in getting rid of most of my severe OCD and depression, and I watch myself carefully to handle any OCD flare ups the right way so that I never return to the way I was. I also take medication (only a low dosage for many years, 25% of what I once needed) and, as you know, I assist behavior therapists in working with others with OCD.

 

But... I have done everything I know of in behavior psychology, and years ago I even went for therapy in the Cult Clinic (an anti-Fundie and anti-cult group here in Manhattan). I am really stuck on this one. I can deal with the thoughts when they pop up, as I have a whole bag of mental behavior therapy tricks. But nothing relieves me of the anger underlying so much of my life.

 

This is the one thing in my life I have never been able to resolve, and it is not just GCN or even just religion. It is the way I was mistreated, belittled, and dismissed for much of my life, long before GCN. The small inroads I have made in this part of healing have come from discussing issues with people and, in one case, having someone I did not even recognize walk up to me and apologize.

 

Let me explain that last one: Years ago in my gym, someone I went to juinor high with walked up to me out of the blue and apologized for everything he had done to me. He later said he was in Alcoholics Anonymous (so I assume he was making amends). I did not shout at him or mock him; I have never been in an Anonymous program but I know how they work. For that reaon, I told him it took a real man to say that, and that, in my eyes, he had wiped his slate clean. I spoke spontaneously, and I meant it. Years of hating him are just gone--gone for good--and I hope that I helped him in his recovery as well.

 

I don't need revenge. I just need to have my identity as a human being respected, and I will always do the same in return. That is the main reason I am here. As an OCD person, I know how dangerous it is for me to hold strong emotions in. My closest friend (since 1992) is an atheist whom I can confide in, but all of the other people I am close to are religious. I do have other atheist friends whom I have fun with, but I am not close enough to any of them to confide much.

 

So, in addition to wanting to help others on GCN who are trapped in self-hate, I am trying to help myself as well.

 

A few weeks ago at work ,one of my fellow professors and I had steamy words, and we were both angry when we parted. A few hours later I sought her out and apologized even though I felt I had contributed much less than 50%. She immediately went into a rant about what I had done, and all I said was "You're right. I'm sorry." I saw how deeply the issues had upset her, and I did something about it with no expectation of anything back from her. (To my surprise, she came up to me and apologized about half an hour later, admitting that she had not been listening to what I was saying during the argument.)

 

Why did I do it? I know that no matter how blameless I may think myself, it takes two to tango. I also knew that if I did not make a move we might end up furious with each other for who knows how long. And she was very upset; I was the cause of her pain. What's the point in making someone suffer needlessly? I don't know what else is going on in her life, and I don't know if, in her mind, I represented another man who was making her unhappy.

 

Isn't this how Christians are supposed to think when they interact with others? This is why part of me is still so surprised even though I know enough about human nature not to be.

 

In short, I am willing to admit that at times I can be as out of line as the next person, and on GCN there were times I was out of line or unprofessional; again it takes two to tango, and you can consider GCN one entity and me another. But both entities did things they should not have. Human beings talk and resolve differences.

 

I must sound like an idealistic teenager. Yeah, I do. What else can I say? I know how evil people are, but I want to believe they can also be decent.

[Vomit Comet]

Hey Ameen,

 

I was at an academic conference thingy out of town this past week, and I met and hung out with some dude that happens to be: 1. gay, 2. more or less an atheist, 3. a leftist academic, 4. half Mexican, 5. half Palestinian. I met him when I crashed some LGBT side party because I heard that they had excellent cheese and wine. (Oh God did they ever!)

 

Well, ordinarily I'd say that being half of a beaner -- like I myself am, although my other half is white Tom Joad okie trash -- would be another major addition to that pile. But he probably got off easier than you did because he grew up in Southern California and looks a Mess'kin despite having a vaguely Arabic last name. ("Dude, so like, what part of Mexico is your family from?") But still, I couldn't stop thinking that I'd finally met someone who had one more reason to be hated by reactionary bigots than you've got.

[Neon Genesis]

I can see why Ameen would want to discuss these issues openly at GCN but I can also understand what the others are saying about the danger of reopening wounds. I think it would be the best of both worlds if we had an alternative secular support group like forum for LGBT atheists where we can discuss these issues openly but not risk reopening old wounds as much as you would in a pro-Christian environment. There's plenty of LGBT support group sites and forums for Christians but I haven't been able to find anything like GCN that's designed for the secular members of the LGBT community. Ex-C has so far been the closest thing to it but it would still be nice to have some place designed with the LGBT community who are non-believers. Unfortunately, I know nothing about building sites. I wonder why there doesn't seem to be any secular LGBT sites out there like you get with GCN. You'd think there would be more easily available given how anti-gay the majority of Christianity is.

[Ameen]

@ Everyone : I apologize if I sometimes get too melodramatic in my posts. (Read that as my admitting that I have definitely been, shall we say, a bit much in this thread.) It's part of my nature, unfortunately, and since I keep it tightly under control on the job and in my volunteer work--My colleagues think I'm a calm, relaxed person (!!!)--it tends to come out in other places.

 

OCD adds to the mix, of course, as the "O" in OCD stands for "obsessive." That's also a good adjective to describe me in this thread.

 

I'll always be polite and respectful here, but you will always get 100% Ameen--which means at times I will be a bit over the top. Take me with a grain of salt.

 

@ Vomit Comet: You made me laugh aloud!

 

Believe it or not, half Latino and half Arab is more common than most people think. Just as Salma Hayek.

 

@Neon Genesis: So true, so true. That's one of the reasons I ended up on a gay Christian board. The gay community is either ultra holy or ultra triple XXX. Where do those of us who are secular but middle of the road go? Thank the goddess for this board.

[pitchu]

I think there may be a middle ground in this, Ameen.

 

For instance, you're a fella with a great sense of humor, so, if you don't want to confront Justin, yet don't want to leave the issue hanging, you could periodically send him a message like "I know that Easter is not the best time for helping to heal old wounds, Justin, so I'll be patient." Then, "Hi, Justin... Mayday seems inappropriate for healing old wounds, I sure understand that. I'll be patient." Then, "Wow, Justin, Flag Day! We're all so busy hailing the red, white and blue that I completely understand your not getting back to me. I'll be patient."

 

Anyway.... a thought.

[noob]

@ Everyone : I apologize if I sometimes get too melodramatic in my posts. (Read that as my admitting that I have definitely been, shall we say, a bit much in this thread.) It's part of my nature, unfortunately, and since I keep it tightly under control on the job and in my volunteer work--My colleagues think I'm a calm, relaxed person (!!!)--it tends to come out in other places.

 

No way!!! There is no such thing as too melodramatic. I love drama!!!

 

Ameen, you have a great sense of humor and a wonderful sense of self. I for one am glad that we always get 100% Ameen!!!

[Ameen]

I think there may be a middle ground in this, Ameen.

 

For instance, you're a fella with a great sense of humor, so, if you don't want to confront Justin, yet don't want to leave the issue hanging, you could periodically send him a message like "I know that Easter is not the best time for helping to heal old wounds, Justin, so I'll be patient." Then, "Hi, Justin... Mayday seems inappropriate for healing old wounds, I sure understand that. I'll be patient." Then, "Wow, Justin, Flag Day! We're all so busy hailing the red, white and blue that I completely understand your not getting back to me. I'll be patient."

 

Anyway.... a thought.

 

Did anyone ever tell you that you're brilliant, pitchu?

 

 

No way!!! There is no such thing as too melodramatic. I love drama!!!

 

Ameen, you have a great sense of humor and a wonderful sense of self. I for one am glad that we always get 100% Ameen!!!

 

Shhhh! Careful what you say! I have an inner drama queen screaming to get out.

 

When I was a grad student, I had to conduct interviews to hire undergrads as peer tutors. There was a lot of bad blood between the Assistant Dean of Undergraduate Studies and me, and I was supposed to conduct the interviews in a large suite of offices next to hers. With her walking out to pick at me every few minutes, I simply said "Enough of this!" and, to her stunned expression, picked up the desk. (No, I didn't hit her with it...!) I carried it into the stairwell, brought out a nice chair, hung up a sign saying where I was, and proceeded to conduct interviews there--even when classes were changing and it got crowded.

 

This is something that runs in the family, and it is definitely in my genes. Family weddings and funerals are like something you see on a half hour sit-com. When the casket containing the body of my great Uncle John (my father's uncle) was being carried away, no one could understand why water was dripping out. Then his eldest son, in his 30s at the time, said: "I thought Dad might get thirsty, so I put a glass of water in there."

 

There was a shouting match during the funeral service, congregation to pulpit, as someone misunderstood the priest and thought he had said that John was in hell.

 

I could go on about the family for hours, but let me return to my melodramatic ways.

 

When I was a teenager my parents were throwing away our old toilet, and I thought I would turn it into a planter. I worked on it for hours, and I even color coordinated the flowers with its pink color. My parents loved it and thanked me for my hard work, but my grandmother the control freak, who lived with us, felt that it 'offended her morality'. When we had gone inside she took a baseball bat and smashed it. I was going to smash her windows with the same bat, but my father grabbed me and held me back. Can't you feel the love...?

 

Hoo boy, did I get punished for this next one. You need to know that many in the family were afraid of my maternal grandmother, and when she wanted something she rang a bell and my mother came running like a maid. My father called his mother-in-law "the Czarina." One time I had had it with my grandmother's shenanigans, and I went after her with the garden hose, soaking her INSIDE THE HOUSE! She never knew what hit her. Fortunately, as an adult many years later, I used to laugh with her over what became known as the hose incident. It had become a family classic, though not necessarily one told in my grandmother's presence...

 

So, dear noob, be careful what you wish for!

[R. S. Martin]

I was kept so ignorant I didn't even know what homosexuality was until I was in high school.

 

You're not the only one, Deva. Well, I didn't get high school. I was perhaps fourteen or fifteen when I first heard the word and how utterly wrong it was. I wanted to know what it was and what was wrong about it. Nobody--not even my mother in a private moment--would tell me what it was. I was given the impression that it was such a great evil that one could not even mention it. I'm not sure when or how I was exposed to the concept. I was born in the mid-fifties so I guess I would have been exposed to hushed discussions and the odd news article re legalization of the various forms of gays coming out. I think by the mid-eighties I had a general idea that it was people of the same sex being in love with each other. But why the heck it could be wrong was totally beyond me.

 

I don't remember giving it much thought. I had very serious issues of my own to deal with by that time in my life. Ameen, one of my very biggest issues was my inability to fit in because of a very strong intellectual bent--and skeptical like all get-out to boot. In looking back, I realize this was exacerbated because I'm in a female body. I read some of your posts, and also AVEN website, on asexuality. I fit that category completely. I simply don't care being a woman; I'm quite happy this way. But I do find men's conversations are generally more interesting than women's because they tend to be more intellectual and more analytical. I was supposed to be happy in the role of housekeeper in a horse and buggy community. Fortunately, no one ever wanted to marry me.

 

Back to how I learned about homosexuality. It must have been very late nineties or early 2000s. I read a letter to the editor in a church magazine in which a man said as a child of nine he used to cry himself to sleep and prayed that he would die before he grew up because he knew he was homosexual.

 

That convinced me that it was not a choice; I knew instinctively that no child of nine bothers his head about such things if they are not for real. I've found myself standing up for gay rights on forums and in classrooms and adult Sunday School based on this. One Sunday School leader was also a professor. In my opinion, he has a very womanish look--chubby cheeks and hair-do that make him look like a woman. He told me that the "jury is still out on that" (homosexuality not being a choice). I just want to ram some sense into the heads of people like that. But I was new at the church and I've had too much experience with church politics. I chose to stop going to church.

 

I don't know if this post is at all supportive. It's supposed to demonstrate that I think I know where you're coming from and that I accept you as you are. I very much enjoyed your story and am very glad to have one more intellectual on these forums. Your treatment at the hands of so-called loving Christians is far too familiar. Such stories help me better understand my experiences.

[Neon Genesis]

I was reading through one of their threads at gaychristian.net and they were ranting about about Christian politeness and people who pretend to be polite with fake plastic smiles. Apparently their suggestion to the problem wasn't for people to just be honest with their feelings but that people should be more obnoxious. One person said that we should be more like Jesus and used an example of when Jesus spat in somebody's eyes. Then another member said they weren't talking about rebuking people who had mistreated you but that you should bring shame on people and make them feel uncomfortable just for having what they called "bad theology." Like, what the hell? Never mind that the person you want us to spit in their eyes didn't mistreat anyone but they want us to make people feel shameful just for having bad theology? And who's going to decide what counts as "bad" theology? All theology is equally baseless in reality. Saying we shouldn't be nice to people if they have bad theology and aren't saved right is like saying you shouldn't be nice to people for having bad fairyology. Even the so-called "militant" atheists like Dawkins and Dennet don't advocate going around spitting in people's eyes or go around telling the religious people they don't agree with to castrate themselves. Sam Harris is actually pretty mild and calm in debates and Dawkins says he won't put on the kid gloves but won't insult people for the sake of being insulting either. But even Dawkins never tells people that we should be like St. Paul when he said for his enemies to castrate themselves. The worst Dawkins ever does is call people delusional. Even Hitchens who is the most rudest of them is only about as rude as the person who he's debating with.

 

It also pisses me off with their hypocrisy that they're advocating being rude to Christians who don't agree with their theology yet when you Ameen post at their forums and dare to disagree with them, you'll get banned for it. I'm almost tempted to post in that thread and tell them I agree with them about fake plastic smiles and start telling them how delusional they are and then see how well they practice what they preach. I also don't get why Christians act like Jesus was such a perfect moral teacher to revolve your life around and why people act like being "Christlike" is a synonym for being moral and just. Like they bashed the churches with fake smiles as being unChrist like and for being Pharisees yet Jesus himself was hardly perfect. If we're taking the bible as being a presumed historically accurate representation of the life of Jesus, then Jesus was a very fanatical religious leader, closed minded, sexist, called women dogs, supportive of slavery, and cherry picked the OT law.

 

There was one story where Jesus killed a freaking fig tree because it was doing what it was supposed to be doing and following the flow of nature. In another story Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for not stoning their disobedient children to death. And that whole story of Jesus and the adulteress woman with the famous line about throwing the first stone is a later addition to the bible, but then if these people willingly advocate making people feel guilty for not agreeing with their theology, then they probably would love fanatical Jesus. Jesus said some good moral teachings too, but I will not associate good moral values with being "Christlike" because the phrase "Christlike" is meaningless. Nobody knows what Jesus really preached as the gospels are not historically accurate and have been altered considerably throughout history, but his biblical persona is hardly worth putting up on a pedestal as being the ultimate moral barometer. The phrase "Christlike" is basically used by xtians to mean "whatever I think is right because Jesus always agrees with me and if you don't agree with me, you're not following Jesus right" and I wish this would phrase would fall out of use already. But the thing that pisses me off most about this is their hypocrisy to you Ameen that they can be rude and obnoxious to other Christians that don't agree with them but atheists can't say anything critical about Christians. I've noticed this as a problem with Christianity as a whole though that Christians love to bash other Christians with beliefs they disagree with but you can't say anything too negative about Jesus without being thought of as militant. Lawlz and some of the gay Christians there loved the movie Fireproof and thought gays could learn from it. By the way, is there like a search engine at the GCN forums to make it easier to browse through topics?

[Vomit Comet]

Just ask Salma Hayek.

 

You got her number?

[Ameen]

@ R. S. Martin: Thank you--and yes I find your post supportive.

 

I in turn accept you exactly as you are. I was on the Aven Asexuality board for a few weeks, and I found that most people there were very accepting of gay people because they knew what it was to have a sexual orientation that the mainstream did not understand. The few (very few!) who were homophobic were challenged by others on the board who could see no reason to condemn gay people. I am glad that I was able to educate people on my OCD board about asexuality and people on Aven about OCD.

 

However you identify, whatever body you are in, and whoever you are or are not attracted to is absolutely fine. Many traditional Southwestern Native American groups held that the sex you were physically did not have to line up with the sex you identified with or the role you played in bed. In modern terms, it would be like a slot machine. You can get three cherries. You can get two cherries and an orange. You can get a cherry, an orange, and a plum.

 

This is not to say that all traditional Native American in the Southwest or anywhere else thought this way, as there were certainly ones that defined what a person must be. Rather, I say it to give you another way to consider yourself.

 

As for me: My body is male and my sexual role is 'male'. Although I am straight acting/looking and many people are surprised to learn that I am gay, I consider my true sex female. I don't have any desire to cross dress (although there is absolutely nothing wrong with it) or have surgery (again, nothing wrong with it). My body is male and I simply want it to stay that way since it turns me on to have a male body in male clothes for the same reason, I suppose, that I am turned on by male bodies in or out of male clothes; however, I am certain that my spirit is female. I have never felt male.

 

Since you have an intellectual bent and these ideas are important to you, may I recommend a 1991 book I read more than ten years ago and loved? It's The Zuni Man-Woman by Will Roscoe (who is an openly gay Native American and scholar). It tells the story of We'Wha, a nineteenth-century Zuni who was the toast of President Grover Cleveland's Washington, D.C. What many whites did not know at the time was that this cultural ambassador and icon was actually a berdache, a man who wore women's clothes and assigned himself a woman's lifestyle. Everyone in D.C. assumed We'Wha was indeed a woman. White society was not ready for such a revelation, but in Zuni society no one would have batted an eyelash.

 

This book won the Margaret Mead Award of the American Anthropological Association and the Society for Applied Anthropology.

 

I'm intrigued by Marlene Winell's Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion, which you mentioned in another thread. I'm not too familiar with the publisher, New Harbinger Publications, and I intend to look into it. If I like what I see, I will definitely order this book (only used copies are available, I realize) and devour it.

 

@ Neon Genesis: Consider yourself cyber-hugged. I love what you wrote, and now you clearly underestand my frustration with GCN. I will say that not everyone on that site is so awful, and I feel bad for the good people there who are bombarded with so many bad messages. Remember, too, that I remain friends with one person from there, a conservative, celibate gay Christian male who is one of the sweetest people I have ever met. I think he is only torturing himself, but I like him a lot. Like him, some people cannot live without religion, and I would like to see some of the really good LGBT people who, for whatever reason, remain Christian find the peace and self-love they really need.

 

To perform a search on GCN, you have to be a member. There are a lot of things that don't show up if you are not a registered member. (Since I am re-banned, I cannot access many things.)

 

@ downtoearth: Why, thank you! I suffered for years with undiagnosed OCD, and I am glad I can do something to prevent others from going through what I did. There are people on my OCD board who are stubborn, don't get treatment, and go on for years as I did, unfortunately. But there are also people who do deal with OCD the right way and get better, and I have had tears in my eyes reading private messages from people I helped find treatment whose lives are so much better. I encourage them to help others as I do. What I do there is real spirituality, and I don't need a god threatening me with hell to be spiritual.

 

Of course, that sort of message is a real threat on GCN.

 

-------------

 

Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but I have recently come across some great quotes by Desmond Tutu, Anglican Archbishop of Capte Town, South Africa, that show how some Christians are on the side of LGBT people:

 

"Churches say that the expression of love in a heterosexual monogamous relationship includes the physical, the touching, embracing, kissing, the genital act - the totality of our love makes each of us grow to become increasingly godlike and compassionate. If this is so for the heterosexual, what earthly reason have we to say that it is not the case with the homosexual?"

 

"A parent who brings up a child to be a racist damages that child, damages the community in which they live, damages our hopes for a better world. A parent who teaches a child that there is only one sexual orientation and that anything else is evil denies our humanity and their own too."

 

"We treat them as pariahs and push them outside our communities. We make them doubt that they too are children of God - and this must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy. We blame them for what they are."

 

"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God."

[Ameen]

P.S.

 

@ R. S. Martin: Just heard from the Ph.D. in psychology who owns and operates my OCD board. She doesn't know the book in question, but New Harbinger Publications is legitimate, she says. I will definitely order a used copy of Winnell's book on Amazon.

 

@ Vomit Comet: You must have posted while I was writing my last message, as I have only just seen your post.

 

Just ask Salma Hayek.

 

You got her number?

 

Not unless you've got Jensen Ackles'... :wicked:

[Brought None]

Your post is very moving Ameen. Thanks for posting it all. I feel terrible for the people mentally trapped like that. The moral majority of society sure doesn't help either with it.

 

I'm still not out in public since I'm in the Bible Belt. I do go to a gay store to hang out every now and then, but don't really have any real gay friends to talk to face to face. Would love to know some that are my age.

 

When I was Christian I put myself through a great deal of mental anguish when I discovered I was in fact gay. It clicked that I was gay around the first part of Junior High School, and when it clicked I got my KJV Bible to see if there was anything I could do about it and turned to the verse about Homosexuals not entering heaven. I cried my eyes out for a good couple of hours cause all I could think of is that I was going to burn for all eternity. I did nonstop prayer for 2 full years pleading to God to heal me of my homosexuality. Would pray when I woke up in the morning, pray under my breath, pray in my mind, and pray myself to sleep. When my grandmother passed away, at her funeral, I felt that God might be close enough to hear me so I made trips to the restroom to quietly pray/beg that God please heal me of that which the church taught endlessly that was the most vile thing one "choose" to be in life. The things I've heard not just preached, but how people in church back home view people who are gay is very dehumanizing and I still have stigmas about it to some degree. My basic outlook on life was very bleak... I saw my future as to stay busy in life as a way to hide so no one knew about me being gay since if that info got out it meant social suicide. Life was basically to wait for death in the future which lead to burning for eternity. I would sit in my bed at night thinking about the physics of Hell, how the soul burns forever, the shear mechanics of it all... very sinister things to think about when your young. I had it pinned down to a energy recycling system where the soul is the fuel for the fire and once burned off, your basically restored only to be consumed as fule again in an never ending painfull cycle.

 

Once I got into College I was already avoiding going to church anytime oppuntunity allowed. I stopped going to church (Holy Hell that was difficult to break at first cause of the guilt feeling) and started looking into all kinds of sites and religious videos online to find out more about my God and such. The real nail in the church coffin was when I took a Anthropology course and when the section got to religion and showed how Religion could be used as a control device in various cultures. That's when the house of cards fell cause I saw all the examples in my own church in how everything was structured and functioned. I started accepting myself near the end of College, but was still scared for anyone to really know. Looking back I regret not connecting with the campus Lambda group. I tried to go to one event. Got to the entrance, they had the comedian ANT on campus to talk, and I chickened out. And yet before that event I got the courage to come out to a campus friend. It's one regret I have cause I feel it could of helped me out by seeing others my own age.

 

I had to dump so much religious mindset out of my entire system in order to start accepting myself. I still haven't come out to my parents. That's still a big fear to me cause they heavily believe homosexuality is a choice and is vile. Have told only a handful of people I know in real life.

 

Don't mean to out pour. This thread struck a deep part of me and reading the struggles you I identify with and wish those like Rick Warren or Falwell could really see things and feel what is it they preach and enforce socially onto others. I feel somewhat cheated on in so many asepcts of my life due to religion ad how it sets up these stupid social templets that it tries to force on everyone cause of some mistranslated desert scribbles. For me the only way i could start accepting myself was to ditch religion. I'm doing so much better now without it.

 

Again, thanks for the post Ameen.

[Ameen]

Please, please don't apologize for pouring, Brought None. I've found that saying it here really helps me, and I am grateful for a place to talk about such issues.

 

I find your post very moving, bro. I am so sorry that you had to go through all that mental nonsense about waiting to die and then going to hell. Goddess, that sounds so familiar. Every time I hear about another one of us who survived homophobia, rejection, fear, and extremist religion, I want to applaud and jump for joy. And wonder how we do it. And cry for all the pain involved.

 

I am also so sorry that you don't have gay friends to talk to face to face. Even in the south, there are places where gays can socialize. I understand that you probably don't want to go to a church group, but you may want to check with the national or a local gay hotline to see what is available in your area. The closest large city might have a gay community center that can advise you. (If you are anywhere near Atlanta, know that it is a huge gay Mecca. Ironically enough, so is Salt Lake City, the center of the Mormon world.)

 

If you are not out to your folks or community, you can, of course, socialize in a different community or area. Treat yourself to weekends away, too.

 

Your university may have an alumni group, and, if you went to a university far away, a closer one may have LGBT activities open even to people not currently attending.

 

If you feel terribly isolated, feel free to drop me a private message. Maybe we can brainstorm ways for you to meet other LGBT people. I warn you that I am not the best person to give such advice, as I spend much of my time teaching or helping students and OCD folks, after which I prefer to retreat to the privacy of my apartment--away from the mad crowds. I fear I am becoming more and more anti-social as I age.

 

Besides, most of my friends are straight despite my living in New York and teaching in a university in Greenwich Village, the gay center of the world... Also, gay New Yorkers are notoriously more snobbish than gays in other American cities; gays I know in other states have all told me that. But my best friend is gay, and we met at a LGBT event in his university in 1992 despite the nastiness of the beautiful Chelsea boys and the intimidation I felt here in New York. I was merely attending their events since the university was close to me. He made a big difference in my life--and still does--and I know that friends like that will also make your life sparkle.

 

Just so you know, I started a glad to be LGBT thread almost two months ago: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=29163&hl=

 

Glad that you're on the board!

[ShackledNoMore]

Winell's book now available new (again), used (of course), or as an e-book, whichever you prefer.

 

Try the following links:

Leaving the Fold: ex-christian.net store, new

Leaving the Fold: amazon.com

Leaving the Fold: e-book from Winell's site

 

The e-book is $12 and new is $18.85. Unfortunately, the e-book page does not say what format the book is in.

 

I'm planning on getting the book sometime or another too (I'll probably do the e-book, so I'll be motivated in finding out about its format). Even though my deconversion is far in the past it seems like a) a worthy read, and a nod to Winell for the work she's done or a supportive gesture for other ex-c's or both (if buying it new, I don't know whether or not a portion of the proceeds go to ex-christian.net if you buy it from their book store, but if so, I'd definitely find it worth buying there).

[Brought None]

Thanks Ameen.

 

I'm in Nashville. A gay community center was just finished a few months back. I need to check out their events calender. I already graduated from college and am not near it anymore. Don't worry, I'm working to become less isolated. I'm alright. Just need to get out more and find a real group of people I can interact with. I think part of my trouble right now is I really want to just be me, but I still don't know who I really am due to hiding for so long. That's the social aspect I feel robbed of. I haven't experianced any rejection due to me being gay yet, since I've remained so quiet and low profile around people. I have experianced self rejection and that's one hell of one to feel.

[Ameen]

Now how did I post the same thing twice?

 

I'll erase the message here and leave it in the next post.