Six Reasons To Believe In God

[Skeptic]

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html I have to say, how does any of this prove that there is a god and that it's specifically the xian god?

[R. S. Martin]

Her evidence and basis all comes from the Bible. Since the Bible says this and that and the other thing, God has to exist--no two ways about it. End of story.

 

See what Looking4Answers has to say about the matter in God's Truth, Post 4. Some of the Bible's claims--and god by extension--are testable. The unreliability of the Bible is overwhelmingly obvious. Her only defense is the motivation of the person who does not believe in god. This is all the xian is left with--and it's an empty bag. They charge us with not wanting enough to believe.

 

If wanting and motivation were the only thing that were lacking, few of us here at exChristian would be nonChristian. These people will yell into our faces that we are lying when we say that. On another thread I read how we should respond to people who treat us like that. It was really good for me to read that. We need not accept such disrespectful treatment at all.

[Skeptic]

These people will yell into our faces that we are lying when we say that. On another thread I read how we should respond to people who treat us like that. It was really good for me to read that. We need not accept such disrespectful treatment at all.

 

What thread is it? I'd like to read it.

[shantonu]

This proof is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. I had a really funny refutation, but I wasn't logged in when I tried to post it and now it's lost.

[centauri]

For me, the article completely fell apart here:

 

"6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God.

Surprisingly, Jesus did."

 

For every verse that suggests Jesus was equal to God, there are others that contradict that cozy notion.

Jesus even claimed after he was resurrected and ascended that he had a God.

 

That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him.

 

So what?

Later on he says he has a God, which isn't himself.

 

Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

 

So what?

Here's what the resurrected and ascended Jesus had to say four times in one verse:

Rev 3:12

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."15 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven.

 

The character "Jesus" didn't write anything, those words were written by cult members.

Jesus also said that he was not equal to the Father, because only the Father knew certain things.

 

Mark 13:32

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

Matt 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."

 

Typical cult leader egomania.

 

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles.

 

Performing miracles doesn't make someone divine.

False prophets can do that.

 

Deut 13:1-5

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

 

Sounds a bit like Jesus being described in Deut 13.

 

"Evil" spirits can also perform miracles.

 

Rev 16:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.

 

Jesus needed to bone up on Deut 13 and Deut 18.

Miracles are not proof of anything.

In fact, God warned his people not to be seduced by them.

 

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us.

 

Jesus was never anointed as a king, which is what he was supposed to be.

 

Jesus revealed though God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan.

 

That "different plan" contradicts the alleged Word of God, as laid down in the Old Testament.

 

God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous?

 

Yes, it sure does, especially in light of this:

 

Num 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven.

 

This contradicts the Law of God.

 

Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him.

 

So I guess the Jews are just pagans that have no relationship with their own God.

 

Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself.

 

Cult writings and Church dogma don't prove anything.

 

Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." This is God, in action.

 

You don't need Jesus for any of that.

Read Ezek 18:20-27 instead of New Testament propaganda.

 

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ.

 

I did just that, and it's a load of crap.

 

We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

 

Read the very next verse to feel the real "love" that this God displays:

 

John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could.

 

Nor does the Mafia force shopkeepers to pay protection money.

 

Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him.

 

The phrase "sufficient proof" is utterly subjective.

Apparently the writings of male clerics and cult members are now a universal "truth".

 

The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.

 

Or you can practice wishful thinking and self delusion.

Speculating about a creator of some type existing is one thing, assigning that role to a messianic failure like Jesus is another.

[Neon Genesis]

Why is it that whenever xtians claim to have been former atheists, they never seem to have a clue as to what atheism actually is or what we think? They're obviously lying about having once been atheists since they clearly don't know a thing about it but I guess it's ok to lie for Jesus.

[Kuroikaze]

The first four points are nothing but ridiculous "we don't have a good answer for this so magic man must have done it" arguments.

 

She may have once been an atheist, but she wasn't much of a skeptic if she fell for nonsense like this.

[Kuroikaze]

Why is it that whenever xtians claim to have been former atheists, they never seem to have a clue as to what atheism actually is or what we think? They're obviously lying about having once been atheists since they clearly don't know a thing about it but I guess it's ok to lie for Jesus.

 

I won't say she wasn't an atheist, people can often be atheists for bad reasons. Which in turn means they can be convinced god exists for equally bad reasons.

 

The trick here, is that by saying "I used to be an atheist" she creates the impression that she used to be one of us, but it is just as likely that she was one of those people who didn't believe because she had never thought about it. Which is an entire different category from you or I

[R. S. Martin]

These people will yell into our faces that we are lying when we say that. On another thread I read how we should respond to people who treat us like that. It was really good for me to read that. We need not accept such disrespectful treatment at all.

 

What thread is it? I'd like to read it.

 

So they think I have a deceiving spirit.

[R. S. Martin]

Why is it that whenever xtians claim to have been former atheists, they never seem to have a clue as to what atheism actually is or what we think? They're obviously lying about having once been atheists since they clearly don't know a thing about it but I guess it's ok to lie for Jesus.

 

I listened to the testimonies of a few self-professed atheists-turned-Christians such as Lee Strobel and Gary Habermas. What really struck me in both cases was that these two very highly educated men provided zero intellectual reasons for why they did not believe in God in the first place, nor why they converted in the second place. William Lane Craig, author of Reasonable Faith (reasonable as in rational) apparently teaches that when confronted with a discrepancy between faith and intellect, to go the way of faith. He also claims once to have been an atheist or nonChristian. He converted at age 16.

 

On Craig's forums there is a self-professed atheist but he talks and acts like a Christian in everything except belief in god. He never talks against religion. None of the Christians ever take him on like they do the real atheists. When he does post, it's usually to hassle atheists. He could be a sock puppet or a troll. I have been viewing him as a person who somehow gets a kick out of identifying as an atheist. I can imagine his type converting when they get tired of the empty pretend life. I can imagine the above-mentioned Christians to have been this type.

[Neon Genesis]

I won't say she wasn't an atheist, people can often be atheists for bad reasons. Which in turn means they can be convinced god exists for equally bad reasons.

 

The trick here, is that by saying "I used to be an atheist" she creates the impression that she used to be one of us, but it is just as likely that she was one of those people who didn't believe because she had never thought about it. Which is an entire different category from you or I

That's a good point and I also think that maybe when xtians claim they used to be an atheist, they're using the word atheist as a synonym for having lived a sinful life before converting. Like Paul said that he was the chief of sinners and to xtians, being an atheist is probably the worst thing you could be, so maybe they're saying they were an atheist as a modern way of saying they were the chief of sinners?

[hereticzero]

Intelligent Design clone. It's the same old argument in favor of creationist point of view.

[hereticzero]

Part of her argument:

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Golly, all this time I had thought water froze from the top down cuz the surface of the water is in contact with the air? And, by her logic, water does not freeze solidly cuz the little fishies have to swim! That means no lake or river, if it has fish, will freeze solidly.

 

These people are too much fun.

[MonolithTMA]

Six Reasons Not To Believe In God

 

1. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

2. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

3. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

4. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

5. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

6. I haven't experienced anything in my life that I would identify as God.

 

[mwc]

"6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God.

Surprisingly, Jesus did."

I always like this one. I've done this before so I may as well do it again. So all it takes is a simple declaration...okay. I, mwc, am not only equal to "god" but I am God. There. Done. I am not a "teacher" or "prophet" but THE God. The one and only. Next time there's some fucked up storm. That's me. When you get a good parking spot. That's me too. Whenever you get something you want. Thank me. Whenever something shitty happens. Sorry but it can't be all peaches and cream people...I have to toss in the bad with those little bits of good. That's the life of God for you. And, no, I'm not going to behave in a predictable fashion. Deal with it. You'll have to. I'm God.

 

mwc

[florduh]

Hell, there are better reasons for believing in Wall Street. And you see where that got us.

[oddbird1963]

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

 

All her other points are sufficiently refuted elsewhere. To the article as a whole, I reply "Yawn . . ."

 

 

To the paragraphs devoted to point number 5, I say that if her God is real, it is a piss-poor communicator. Why does the arguably highest and greatest living being have only intuition and a dusty old set of copied, re-copied, and re-re-re-copied parchments at his disposal for pursuing human beings? What kind of love is that? What kind of pursuit is that?

 

It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

 

When I was a young boy, Mom gave me a glass of High-C fruit juice. When she left the room, I decided I wanted some more. So I helped myself to some more. Then, I wanted some more. Pretty soon, there was about a 1/3 of a can left of the fruit juice. Wanting to put off my punishment for as long as possible I filled the rest of the can with water out of the faucet.

 

A few hours later, she decided to get a drink. The High-C/H₂O mix was so weak it was disgusting. I heard her spewing it out of her mouth.

 

This argument - that God exists because he pursues us and the corollary that when we talk about god NOT existing that proves he's pursuing us - - I say SPEEWWW!

 

That is just the kind of twisted attempt at psycho-babble that most Christian apologetic is known for. Why do atheists and agnostics spend time talking about God - - because of the great job Religion does at mind-f**king believers. If you believe in reason, then certainly a person is going to become animated in the face of anti-reason.

 

If God wants to communicate with me - let him, her or it. I just think he'll have to do a better job of it than the strange little reasons Muggeridge and Lewis gave.

[GeneralJet]

In all fairness, he is right about most atheists spending a lot of time on a god in whom they do not believe. As atheists and agnostics, we no doubt know the Bible better then do many believers. Surely we take god more seriously then many believers. Is it God trying to guide us back? I do not think so, but i always try to keep an open mind. which is of course, what lead me here.

[Skeptic]

In all fairness, he is right about most atheists spending a lot of time on a god in whom they do not believe. As atheists and agnostics, we no doubt know the Bible better then do many believers. Surely we take god more seriously then many believers. Is it God trying to guide us back? I do not think so, but i always try to keep an open mind. which is of course, what lead me here.

 

I spend a lot of time on god and debunking the bible not because god is "calling me back" but because I want to try to do what others did for me: provide me with a mountain of evidence against god that I could no longer ignore, ultimately causing me to deconvert. I want to promote reason. One way to do this is to "know your enemy" and know how to debunk the opposite viewpoint. Also, I already blasphemed the holy spirit, as have many atheists. It's the one unforgivable sin. God can't accept me back. That disproves the author's hypothesis.

 

ETA: I think part of the reason she said that is because she doesn't want atheists to get involved with god. JMO.

[I Broke Free]

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

 

Total Bull Shit! I have never experienced anything of the sort. Of course Christians will just tell me that I am lying; it is only way their belief system will hold together.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue.

 

So since your god is not pressing the issue with me, I can then assume he is okay with me not believing in him? Somehow I doubt you would accept my take on this.

[mahjong]

My own personal rant:

 

My eldest son, who is now 33, is beginning to be a little pushy with me about believing in God. Now, mind you, he considers himself a Christian, although he knows that most Christians would not consider him a Christian. (He believes in other stuff besides Christianity, he drinks to excess, smokes pot, bangs as many women as he can as often as he can, etc.) But he was on me yesterday about the reason my life sucks is because I don't pray. I was already down and out, and to hear that coming from him, while not devastating, was like a big 'Fuck you, you're a loser, Mom, because you don't believe in God!'. He said to me how can God believe in you if you don't believe in God?

 

Finally I just told him that I was shocked as hell the moment I realized I don't believe any of this stuff. I told him it was never my intention not to believe, but how can I make myself believe in something if it just isn't there for me? I mean, I'd feel pretty damned stupid, wouldn't I, talking to someone I don't believe exists or hears me. He said he believes there is someone who watches over him and cares for him. I was thinking it must be me, since he has lived in my home for 5+ years and has barely paid rent. He came here after having been homeless for 7 years or so. He slept under bridges, got rolled, ate from dumpsters and showed up here emaceated and crazy from being hungry for so long. So, if he believes in God now, ok, but is he sure it was God who was watching out for him???

 

Sometimes I think it is God calling me, and I get scared and want to run away and I tell the 'caller' to call back later and I hang up. If there's a God, I'm too scared to want to know. And these days I'm really in the thick of it, going bankrupt, having lost my business, and losing my house. If God loves us, I figure, God loves us whether we know he's there or not. Right now I just can't deal with people trying to force me to believe. I don't try to force anyone not to believe.

[Neon Genesis]

Total Bull Shit! I have never experienced anything of the sort. Of course Christians will just tell me that I am lying; it is only way their belief system will hold together.

And doesn't this whole claim that God is pursuing us a contradiction to the freewill argument xtians always love to spout?

[mwc]

And these days I'm really in the thick of it, going bankrupt, having lost my business, and losing my house. If God loves us, I figure, God loves us whether we know he's there or not. Right now I just can't deal with people trying to force me to believe. I don't try to force anyone not to believe.

I've been through two out of three of these and it sucks. I also know that "god" shows his "love" by throwing you in shit then using his boot to force your face in even further until you finally "break" see how wonderful he is and, since you're face down on the ground anyhow, you worship him.

 

How dumb are we supposed to be that this makes any sense? That we are so "arrogant" or "against" this "god" that we put up a "defense" of some sort and it's not until we're forced down and weak that we become "open" to "god?" To paraphrase what Stephen Colbert said "This makes god sound like an opportunist virus." True. But it's silly if we're to think it's in the realm of reality.

 

mwc