God Versus Hell

[Tabula Rasa]

I wasn't certain where to put this. I figured since I still believe in some sort of God, this was the best place.

 

Anyway.... My main argument against christianity and it's god that sends people to hell if they don't worship it , is what

I call the argument from Transcendence. In my opinion, an all powerful being, capable of doing anything, who can change reality to it's every single whim, isn't going to care if it's worshipped or not. Even if it desired to be worshipped, it could make beings that worship it and still think they are doing it of their own "free will". And it would be so above it's creation, that it wouldn't have the cheap petty emotions of human beings, and it wouldn't damn anyone.

 

So on to the main part of the post: What would be some arguments christians would use against this argument I've just presented? Reason I'm asking, is so I can be on guard against any such arguments.

[willybilly30]

I agree if their is God it don't care if you worship it or not...cause if it did it'd tell the whole world.

 

I could just see a fundy saying he told the whole world in the bible or threw Jesus.

 

Just tell them you believe what you believe and don't care.

 

I have been threw arguments about this you'll just go in a circle till one of you changes the subjet.

[PandaPirate]

I agree if [a]their is God it don't care if you worship it or not...cause if it did it'd tell the whole world.

 

I could just see a fundy saying he told the whole world in the bible or threw Jesus.

 

Just tell them you believe what you believe and don't care.

 

I have been threw arguments about this you'll just go in a circle till one of you changes the subjet.

 

I'm sorry, but I simply have to do this. As a journalist I cringe when I see this stuff. Sorry if it seems inconsequential and petty. Just call me The Grammar Nazi.

 

There

 

Through

 

On a similar note:

 

A panda walks into a bar. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

 

"Why? Why are you behaving in this strange, un-panda-like fashion?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda walks towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

 

"I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."

 

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

 

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

 

So, you see, bad grammar can cost you your life.

 

/hijack.

[PandaPirate]

I wasn't certain where to put this. I figured since I still believe in some sort of God, this was the best place.

 

Anyway.... My main argument against christianity and it's god that sends people to hell if they don't worship it , is what

I call the argument from Transcendence. In my opinion, an all powerful being, capable of doing anything, who can change reality to it's every single whim, isn't going to care if it's worshipped or not. Even if it desired to be worshipped, it could make beings that worship it and still think they are doing it of their own "free will". And it would be so above it's creation, that it wouldn't have the cheap petty emotions of human beings, and it wouldn't damn anyone.

 

So on to the main part of the post: What would be some arguments christians would use against this argument I've just presented? Reason I'm asking, is so I can be on guard against any such arguments.

 

I agree with you. If there is a supreme creator then I do not believe "it" would need to have its ego stroked the way bible god does. Bible god is extremely insecure and childish. I think bible god has Bipolar Disorder and quite possibly Borderline Personality Disorder. He sounds very narcissitic as well.

[Shion]

Well if you were omnipotent and had that much power, wouldn't you be narcissistic and a little crazy? Also if you were born alone, in nothingness: ethics would have no meaning even with infinite power.

 

I don't think anyone is worth worshiping. Worship takes us down dark roads, because in that state we don't question. Without questioning the actions and decisions of leaders, the balance of power is not maintained. I don't see why any percieved deity should be exempt from this.

 

Hell is just proof that their ideal is a militaristic dictator who doles out love and glory to those who are too broken to leave him, perfect little weapons in his little sycophantic army.

[willybilly30]

For some reason I always get them words wrong like how to use there and their, and through and threw.

I suck at grammer.....I probally should be using something else besides these little dots too.

Sorry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree if [a]their is God it don't care if you worship it or not...cause if it did it'd tell the whole world.

 

I could just see a fundy saying he told the whole world in the bible or threw Jesus.

 

Just tell them you believe what you believe and don't care.

 

I have been threw arguments about this you'll just go in a circle till one of you changes the subjet.

 

I'm sorry, but I simply have to do this. As a journalist I cringe when I see this stuff. Sorry if it seems inconsequential and petty. Just call me The Grammar Nazi.

 

There

 

Through

 

On a similar note:

 

A panda walks into a bar. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

 

"Why? Why are you behaving in this strange, un-panda-like fashion?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda walks towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

 

"I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."

 

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

 

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

 

So, you see, bad grammar can cost you your life.

 

/hijack.

[Tabula Rasa]

Well if you were omnipotent and had that much power, wouldn't you be narcissistic and a little crazy? Also if you were born alone, in nothingness: ethics would have no meaning even with infinite power.

 

 

I guess what I'm getting at, is that humans, even all of creation would be beneath such a being. John Armstrong, who's a deist talks about the idea of scale. In his particular case, he mentions the absurdity of humans having a personal relationship with God. He says it would be like a bacteria in a petri dish telling another bacterium about his special relationship with the Great scientist in the sky. A being who could easily create all the complicated laws that run the universe, to my mind, wouldn't be so cheap and petty that it'd quibble over whether or not any part of it's creation was giving it praise and accolades.

 

Hans, Antlerman, Ruby, and all the deep thinkers here as well as everyone else, I'd like to also get your opinions on what arguments a fundie might use against an omnipotent being not damning anyone.

 

 

Thanks, Tab

[Ouroboros]

I guess what I'm getting at, is that humans, even all of creation would be beneath such a being. John Armstrong, who's a deist talks about the idea of scale. In his particular case, he mentions the absurdity of humans having a personal relationship with God. He says it would be like a bacteria in a petri dish telling another bacterium about his special relationship with the Great scientist in the sky. A being who could easily create all the complicated laws that run the universe, to my mind, wouldn't be so cheap and petty that it'd quibble over whether or not any part of it's creation was giving it praise and accolades.

I totally agree.

 

Lets say I figured out how to create artificial intelligence. I make this super-computer where I can create a world of beings who live and experience. And this "game" world consists of trillions and trillions of places outside the experience of those puny entities.

 

First of all, why would I want to make them into my eternal friends? Why would I even consider to have a plan where they somehow are put into robot-bodies and they can live and interact with me directly? If I did want this, why would I want them to first live a life-cycle within the machine before they are rewarded the "pleasure" of meeting me in person? Doesn't all this sound more like an experiment or just a game?

 

And secondly, why would I want to give some of these entities some eternal punishment? It's easier just to drop the piece of data/code which constitute the being, and just free up the memory. No need to keep on running the same segment of bad code in some other server where I give them some kind of fictitious punishment. It's like taking every version of bad releases of Windows, and every copy of it out there in the world, put it on some mega-computer system, where we simulate irritating mouse clicks everywhere on the desktop. What gain does it give me as the system administrator to do this?

 

And lastly, if I tried this experiment once already, with the first generation of super-computer, called The Angles, and a whole bunch of the entities rebelled against me and started to screw up my other system and infected it. Wouldn't I be a bit weary about letting this next generation of entities become robots in my world and mess around with me?

 

Hans, Antlerman, Ruby, and all the deep thinkers here as well as everyone else, I'd like to also get your opinions on what arguments a fundie might use against an omnipotent being not damning anyone.

Usually the argument is that morality can't exist without a free-will to choose between doing the right thing or the wrong thing. But why would doing right or wrong have any meaning unless there also were some kind of reward/punishment at the end of it? Why would it be of any meaning of doing the right thing, if tomorrow it is forgotten by everyone?

[PandaPirate]

For some reason I always get them words wrong like how to use there and their, and through and threw.

I suck at grammer.....I probally should be using something else besides these little dots too.

Sorry

 

You might have some really big test one day and those might be the words Jesus wants you to spell right in order to get into Heaven. So, you see, it's very important.

[nightflight]

Even as a child, I thought Christianity's god was rather.......small. I thought that the Creator of the universe should be above being offended; but the deity the locals worshiped was petty and vengeful. In the end, Xianity is fear and self-aggrandizement.

[willybilly30]

Why would an all knowing god need to test someone when he already knows i'd fail? He'd just chuck me in hell then and not bother

 

 

 

 

For some reason I always get them words wrong like how to use there and their, and through and threw.

I suck at grammer.....I probally should be using something else besides these little dots too.

Sorry

 

You might have some really big test one day and those might be the words Jesus wants you to spell right in order to get into Heaven. So, you see, it's very important.

[Guest RougeWolf22]

God verses Hell... that a heavy load for us morals to think about.

That said, if there is a heaven then there must be a hell, but think about it for a minute who know if there is either. I mean who among us is really worth of heaven or hell. Their are only a few I can think of. Then there is the God factor, before you think about how this 'God' being decide who go to which. Setting a side what we know of God from the bible, what do we really know about God. How he thinks, how he decides things, no moral can truly know any of these things without first understanding God and his true nature. What is his true nature, I don't know, but I can come up with some logical conclusions. Those conclusion(which would take too long to explain here) leds me to believe that Karma is picked up and life that slowly builds up in our life, and that Karma determents what direction we are pulled when we passed into the next life. Am I saying that that it leads us to heaven or hell, well not technically but I believe that it leads us to a place where we can finally finds our resting place.

[florduh]

A couple of problems I see with a Heaven/Hell scenario is first, they are idealized ultimate extremes. But people - even the best and worst - fall somewhere in between the ultimate good and ultimate evil. No one deserves either fate.

 

Second, the idea of a final punishment or reward assumes there must be justice in the universe. Why should we assume this? All experience demonstrates that we live in a random universe where things just happen, and we then just happen to assign values to the events. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. Stars are born, and they die. Everything operates without rhyme or reason. Shit happens, in other words.

 

Note to Panda: The butchering of the language is also a pet peeve of mine. I byte my tonge ever time I see misteaks that a third greater shunt make. I ott not be so pickey but there spelling and grammer is atroshus sometimes. If english isn't your native tong that's one thing, butt if your born hear, learn the fuckin english! How does the illiterit ever get employmint anyways?

[PandaPirate]

Note to Panda: The butchering of the language is also a pet peeve of mine. I byte my tonge ever time I see misteaks that a third greater shunt make. I ott not be so pickey but there spelling and grammer is atroshus sometimes. If english isn't your native tong that's one thing, butt if your born hear, learn the fuckin english! How does the illiterit ever get employmint anyways?

 

I love you.

 

[florduh]

I love you.

 

 

I love you to.

[PandaPirate]

Freak.

[willybilly30]

What the fuck i ever do to you people?

[willybilly30]

I am not illiterate. btw it's FLORIDA!

 

 

 

 

Note to Panda: The butchering of the language is also a pet peeve of mine. I byte my tonge ever time I see misteaks that a third greater shunt make. I ott not be so pickey but there spelling and grammer is atroshus sometimes. If english isn't your native tong that's one thing, butt if your born hear, learn the fuckin english! How does the illiterit ever get employmint anyways?

[PandaPirate]

Just jokin' around man. Lighten up.

 

I live in Florduh btw.

[florduh]

What the fuck i ever do to you people?

 

SHE started it!

 

You aren't even close to being a top target for a grammar nazi. You just provided a small opening for a rant on language usage. I love you to!

[PandaPirate]

But Mom!!!....

 

[willybilly30]

Ok, But I am not illiterate why the fuck would an illiterate be on a forum with text?

 

 

What the fuck i ever do to you people?

 

SHE started it!

 

You aren't even close to being a top target for a grammar nazi. You just provided a small opening for a rant on language usage. I love you to!

[willybilly30]

You ever hear the same jokes over and over and get sick of them.

Ever forum i'm on it's the same thing.

 

 

Just jokin' around man. Lighten up.

 

I live in Florduh btw.

[PandaPirate]

As you were soldiers...