Free Will Can Be A "god"

[Exclavius]

Wow, it's been a long time since i wrote anything on this site. I posted a brief coming out story over a year ago, and stayed with the site for a bit of a time after that, the responses helped a lot, and it's something I'm to this day very grateful for. I'm not sure however really why i left this site, but an old Friend has come back into my life, and she's someone who was more of a friend in more ways than anyone I've ever known. She has got me back to thinking about all the things that are wrong in my life... Mostly the ones that are the residue from my old ways of thinking for so many years. Some of them you don't even realize came from my x-ian ... but they did... And some of the negative thought patterns come from my abject rejection of x-ianity. (you know... x-ian say this that I disagree with.. so therefore i must be as much different from that as possible.)

 

Anyways... in the past few months, I've fixed a lot of my thinking problems... well, fixed isn't the right word, rather... it's recognized and accepted them. But during that time, I've realized something that has struck me to the bone... And i feel I have to share it with people who are more apt to think like I do, because the people I know in ordinary life for the most part, really aren't able to understand what I want to put forward in this post.

 

So, that's enough preamble, i shall just write what i sat down to write, and hopefully people will respond, and I hope for positive and negative feedback, though I hope any negative will be constructive, or at least if that's too much, then intelligent.

I am an academic, so bear with me a bit, as this will appear mostly like an essay, and also keep in mind that one of my favorite books is without a doubt the Emperor's New Mind by Roger Penrose.

 

The universe, by and of itself, appears at as many levels as we can understand fully, to be deterministic.

Quantum Mechanics (QM), could however be a colloquial monkey wrench in the gears, but as we do NOT yet fully understand that concept, there should be no reason whatsoever to claim that it is contrary to the otherwise universal "deterministic" nature of the universe.

I think the general consensus in the scientific community is that quantum mechanics are in fact deterministic, but only in the aggregate, due to the law of averages. I would disagree with this... I suspect that there are properties of sub-atomic particles that we are not yet aware of, and if they are calculated then the particle will behave in a deterministic way. The reason we interpret them as wave forms, with certain probabilities is that we are able to observe that x% of them have a certain property or parameter, and that y% have another... and that "unobserved" and possibly/likely "Unobservable" property offers the deterministic outcome that we cannot yet or possibly ever determine, outside of the probability statements of QM.

 

If that statement is in fact true, it would decree that either one of two possibilities are true. a) The entire universe including ourselves are deterministic. or That only something "other" than matter or energy could break the universe from a deterministic outcome.

 

Well, it isn't very hard to show that the universe IS NOT deterministic with nothing more than pure functional logic.

This is my "answer" to the anthropic principle, which although it has it's merits, i do not believe to be completely correct.

 

Why does this universe exist? Anthropic principal argues that it does because it needs to for us to exist, and the only place WE would exist is in THIS universe, ergo, this universe must exist.

 

TRUE.... But i believe that answer is incomplete, and always have... It's only of the last while that I've become aware of what that "more" is.

Why doesn't (although i guess they very well could) every possible universe exist. By "a universe" i mean a set of "universal constants or parameters, which we view as the "laws of nature." My answer is thus: There would be no need for a universe to exist, if it were totally and completely in every aspect deterministic, because such an existence would be pointless.... (Pointless to who or what? good question.. but that I'm still working on) The core of this point is, that i cannot fathom that it WOULD exist, if it were totally deterministic.

 

From this, I'll claim something that lacks pure proof as of yet, that the universe is NOT totally deterministic.

Schrodinger's cat is a good example, though it is likely theoretically not "correct" because it is a macro-scale thought experiment, but there are QM versions of it that are better, and have shown the indeterminacy.

That indeterminacy is ONLY manifest when humans observe it, or when a device made by and for the use of, humans (or perhaps it would be better to say any entity of conscious nature, but I'll just say human for simplicity)

 

So, from all of this, I take that the universe does behave completely and utterly deterministically outside of human involvement.

However it does NOT do so within human involvement... So where does that leave us?

 

Most religions claim that "god gave us free will"

most also claim it is a sin to practice, use or exercise it in any way shape or form.. .though they disguise their words so it doesn't sound as though it is exactly such... But consider the apple of the tree of knowledge in the Judeo-Christian faiths. The tree of knowledge IS intended by the authors to mean the time when mankind first developed free will. Sure they're wrong it wasn't 6,000 years ago, it was in stead more like 40,000 years ago at about the time of the "great leap forward" But either way it doesn't matter... Ever since we developed free will, we have wanted as a race to lose it... And that very desire to do so is what launched the birth of religion.

Thus, i say, "Free will gave us god"

 

My discussion here has nothing to do with the merits or downfalls of free will, I'll argue on another thread if someone wants to start it, as to whether the human race would indeed be better off without it, but this is not that thread, and if there is no determinism with regards to humans, call it what you will, it all boils down to the fact that we DO have free will, and I do not believe that save for killing off the human race we could lose it.

 

Now, keep in mind, that if in fact the universe was completely deterministic up to the dawn of human consciousness (ignore the possibility of conscious life on other planets, because all that does is put the "date" back further in time) It is completely possible that the universe did begin on the moment that such consciousness formed. That is to say, the universe could calculate what would happen up to that point, and didn't need to go through the "experiment" to figure out what would exist at a give point in the space time continuum. It could instead just "begin" that way. This is more a tangent, but an interesting one that came out of this philosophical exercise.

 

So now, I'm going to state some pretty old concepts...

The philosophical definition of god... At least the one I'm most comfortable with.

"That which nothing greater could be imagined" ... well, it's good, but not complete.

I like to think of it more along the lines of that which holds three properties:

1) Be able to do anything that is doable (Omnipotence)

2) Be able to know anything that is knowable (Omniscience)

3) Be morally definitive.

 

If it is doable, If it is knowable, we ARE able to know and do it.

a rock on the beach cannot.

A worm in the garden cannot.

We can...

 

You might say, I can't fly to the moon! Well you can fly to the moon as soon as it's doable... It is NOT doable right now to you, but you could if you had the money and resources to do it, fly to the moon. If you do not have the resources... then simply put it is not doable.

This argument can also be put forth in a different way. Free will is something that we have not yet mastered, so we can only yet either use a portion of it, or exercise it by some built in way to "proxy" the information we do not have that is necessary to make the as of yet undoable, doable.

 

Let me explain this concept a bit clearer, because this is the point I've had the hardest time explaining to people...

For event X to be doable, it would require information Y to be known.

if information Y is as of yet unknowable, then event X is undoable.

However, we can come close to, or at least closer than a non-conscious entity, by applying "proxy" information in lieu of information Y.

We can make guesses, and for the most part, we are able to make guesses (well, mathematical calculations really, without the complete understanding and the complete access to the parameters) that we can use.

 

If we only had the value of the gravitational constant accurate to 10 m/s/s then we likely would never been able to get to the moon.

9.8 m/s/s might not be enough, but we know it more accurately than that, even though we don't know it EXACTLY.. the same as the constant pi.

Pi would be different in a different universe, heck it is different in different parts of this universe, such as near a black whole.

But in the place in space time continuum (STC) that is relevant for us, we do know those values close enough. Therefore we can make a proxy or guess of that information and accomplish the closest doable thing to what we want, or to what is yet undoable.

 

So, i don't think it's too hard to follow through the first two criteria for god-hood, but what about the third, Morally Definitive.

 

Well, most of us on this forum do not really believe in the personal god of Abraham. Those of us that believe anything often have a much different perspective on what "morality" is. Some, myself included, believe morality to be nothing more than an artificially created concept which was created mainly to circumvent the loss to the power of instinct (which was evolved for the purpose of not just self-preservation, but more for the purpose of genetic duplication and continuity.) The creation of Morality was for the purpose of the continuity and gene-duplication of not the individual's specific own genes, but instead the human race's own genes. In old times, when tribes were separate, we found that morality was heavily if not completely biased to the morality's own tribe. And, even today it is so... But no so much in tribes, but in religions.

 

So what in fact would "morally definitive" entail?

This is the concept that i have the most difficulty putting into words, but i hope i can. I should note here, that this third part is only necessary for the argument that the "god" in question is "worthy of worship" If a "god" were to possess the first two, but not the third, it would be every bit as much a god, just not worthy of worship. Mind you that is an open question in philosophy that i have come down on one side of... that is that a god could exist which is not worthy of worship, some would not call that a "god" but that is purely semantics.

The answer i have to offer for this, is purely this...

If there is no "being" that specifically dictates an absolute "morality" then morality is NOT objective, rather it is SUBjective.

Ergo, for each subject, the answer is different.

And for each occurrence of free will, (ie, each person, or entity of conscious nature) there is a different moral definitiveness.

So to me, my free will does satisfy that third principle, though your free will does not satisfy that principle for me.

Similarly, your free will satisfies that condition for you, but ONLY you.

 

Ergo... Free will IS god. That is, one's own Free Will is one's own god.

 

Play with evolutionary nature, and one COULD see the merging of multiple or all free wills into one... just as subatomic particles become matter, which become particles become objects, become planets/suns/moons etc, and just as the first cells united with like cells to form multi cellular life, then different types of cells formed together into organs to form more complex life, perhaps different organisms will unite to form even higher levels of life.

 

And with such a progression to unite all occurrences of free will into a single "greater than the self, and greater than the sum of parts" free will could form, or moreover WOULD form, that would be capable of all doable and knowable things, and as there would be no competing free will any "morality" it was to conceive WOULD be, by definition Definitive.

This, however would be the ultimate god.

 

If you read the bible (or maybe even other holy books) again... knowing and keeping in mind what i have just said, you might see some things in that/those books that might just surprise you.

 

Anyways, This is the reasoning I've gone through, which has only been "capped off" in the past couple weeks to a point where I have been able to verbalize it. It's far from done, it's far from precise. But it's the reason i now know that I am my own god... or that i possess the power to be my own god, if and when i am able to live up to what it deserves.... Using, and ever expanding my exercising of free will to the purpose of my internal morality.

 

That's what i sat down tonight to talk about, and what brought me back here after so long.

I really want to hear what people have to say, on pretty well any side of it, save for the issue of whether we are better off without free will than we are with it -- That is a moot point, and only of interest in a pure theory, and not reality. The question of IF we actually HAVE free will is certainly a relevant question though.

[Guest RougeWolf22]

As a complete un-academic, I will give you my take on what I think of your vision of 'god'. I've come to think along similar line as you, that we are god, but the your outline of what god is(your A,B,and C) doesn't seem to fit what your saying at the end. I read your back and fore about the doable and undoableand un/knowables(I read it several time just to get the idea of what your trying to say). It seems like you take on God is A and B, but when it comes to C each and everyone of us determents that variable and the merge of that is C. If that in fact is what your saying then I will agree with you, that we determent the morality of God.

Take for the example of pro-life and pro-choice. What would God think of that issue, well my take on that would be if it in fact was an act of greed of selfishness or greed, even to the knownlege of the person then it would be known as Christians as a SIN(cause I con't want to call it evil), if was an act of Kindness(I know it isn't a good word to use), like if it to save the mother or the result of a rape then it wouldn't be a Sin.

What I'm trying to say is both sides have a point, but the true moral of the act would come from the one committing it, and I don't want to heard about Hitler or serial killers doing what they think is right, because those cases are of delusion men and there mind somehow twist the facts to make those act rightous in those malform lumps they call brains.

What I'm trying to say is that the collective morals of humans beings may, in fact, determents God's(if he even exist as we believe him to be or at all) or maybe the God inside us(free will) determents it for each one of us.

[Exclavius]

Well, I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.

You may be un-academic, but so am i, i just have the narrowest understandings of some things I've talked about. I've only learned what was needed to understand what was coming together in my head... and i KNOW I'm not good at explaining it.

There is a bit, that i never added to it either... and I have to use it to expand further.

When we view gods as "concepts" vs entities. we can take a memetic approach... (view ideas as evolving "concepts" that change in ways that help them survive and replicate, just as genes do... and the ideas that support themselves and make themselves live on will survive, in a survival of the fittest contest)

 

The concept of "god" without another source of free will in the universe, is a concept that fits the three criteria of godhood, because nothing could be greater... It may be imaginary.. But it still fits the criteria.

But, with free will existing in the universe.. specifically within us, the "god" of old, does not any longer hold sway, he lost it, metaphorically when we ate of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

At that point we gained free will. And the "god" of old to exist and continue must now destroy free will... which is the purpose of Theistic Religion.

We look at the evolution of religion over time, and we see it's weakening concept of "god" as an entity, and the increasing strength of "god" as a concept. Many so-called theistic religions today, though they will not admit that god is only a concept, their tenets essentially state as such... Even the bible can be read as such if you really look deeply.

 

We, with free will can CHOOSE to reject the old concept of "god" as an entity, or we can CHOOSE to accept it.

if we choose to accept it, we are accepting a concept of "god" that leads us to surrender free will, because essentially all theistic religions that claim the old "god" as an entity attempt to think for us, and more importantly CHOOSE for us. And when we choose for ourselves contrary to the dictates, we must atone for it, by further venerating ourselves and giving up even more of our free will.

 

Each step toward the imaginary concept of "god" as an entity weakens the new conceptual god "free will", just as each step towards the conceptual god of free will will weaken the imaginary concept of "god" as an entity.

 

This memetic conflict is portrayed in the bible as the conflict between Yahweh and Satan, then later by Jesus and Satan.

Jesus is the perfect example of a surrendered free will. His life and death, in every aspect was controlled by (surrendered to) an imaginary concept.

 

Now... I'll add a caveat here for those that read this that DO believe in "god" as a real entity instead of as an imaginary concept or imaginary entity.

Even if "god" is an entity, the conflict still exists, and it is up to you to CHOOSE FOR YOUR SELF, by exercising the free will you have.

You do have the ability to choose between "god" and "free will"

It is your right to choose whichever way you opt, it is not your "god's" right to coerce you, nor mine... and "free will" will not coerce you, because the very idea of it would be oxymoronic and paradoxical.

You can choose a "god" who may have the power to interfere, but chooses not to, .. and thus allows all such evil to happen.

But "god" does not CHOOSE to not interfere, he has no choice, because WE as rational conscious beings hold free will, not "god"

"god" as portrayed in any holy book I've ever seen or read is not capable of free will... Because "god" knows the future. Thus "god" knows what he will do, and cannot change it, ergo, he does not possess free will.

 

I have only one thing to say to those that this applies to, you have the potential, by simply CHOOSING to reject the "god" of old, to be greater than that said "god" and be a "god" unto yourself.

 

I hope this clears it up, if anyone didn't get what i was saying.

 

I'll add my partially cynical endnote here... I think the reason people hold on to the old concept of god, is because they actually wish to give up free will, and surrender to their instincts... Thus not having to think (and moreover decide) for themselves. Society today seems much happier to have the media, the church, the government, even their spouse, or whatever authority they can find think/decide for them.

I however prefer to think/decide for myself... Thus, I am a free-thinker, worshiping the "concept" of free will, as a concept, for the good of me, and the good of society as a whole. I may hate society, and i might not be very impressed with what it is today.. but I do have great respect for what i see as it's potential.

[Guest RougeWolf22]

This memetic conflict is portrayed in the bible as the conflict between Yahweh and Satan, then later by Jesus and Satan.

Jesus is the perfect example of a surrendered free will. His life and death, in every aspect was controlled by (surrendered to) an imaginary concept.

 

Now... I'll add a caveat here for those that read this that DO believe in "god" as a real entity instead of as an imaginary concept or imaginary entity.

Even if "god" is an entity, the conflict still exists, and it is up to you to CHOOSE FOR YOUR SELF, by exercising the free will you have.

You do have the ability to choose between "god" and "free will"

It is your right to choose whichever way you opt, it is not your "god's" right to coerce you, nor mine... and "free will" will not coerce you, because the very idea of it would be oxymoronic and paradoxical.

You can choose a "god" who may have the power to interfere, but chooses not to, .. and thus allows all such evil to happen.

But "god" does not CHOOSE to not interfere, he has no choice, because WE as rational conscious beings hold free will, not "god"

"god" as portrayed in any holy book I've ever seen or read is not capable of free will... Because "god" knows the future. Thus "god" knows what he will do, and cannot change it, ergo, he does not possess free will.

 

I have only one thing to say to those that this applies to, you have the potential, by simply CHOOSING to reject the "god" of old, to be greater than that said "god" and be a "god" unto yourself.

 

I hope this clears it up, if anyone didn't get what i was saying.

 

I'll add my partially cynical endnote here... I think the reason people hold on to the old concept of god, is because they actually wish to give up free will, and surrender to their instincts... Thus not having to think (and moreover decide) for themselves. Society today seems much happier to have the media, the church, the government, even their spouse, or whatever authority they can find think/decide for them.

I however prefer to think/decide for myself... Thus, I am a free-thinker, worshiping the "concept" of free will, as a concept, for the good of me, and the good of society as a whole. I may hate society, and i might not be very impressed with what it is today.. but I do have great respect for what i see as it's potential.

 

So your argument is religion vs. free will. That religion destory free will and free will destory religon. Your example of Christ losing free will by being fated to die on the cross is a good one, but unfortunately there is a middle ground.

I know I might sound like a little brainwash christian by saying this, sometimes we chose to follow the 'god' of old to follow our own free will. Our concept of him gives shape to own free will. Like in the 'stories' of Jesus(cause I can't be sure he was a real man and if he was I'm damn sure that his life wasn't told the truth way he lived), I believe that he choose to do what he did base on what he thought was right, not just cause his father(GOD) command it.

Putting that aside I know some sects of Christian is just brainwashing, but that's(cause I believe) because religion now a days is too crazy, and for that reason I will agree with you, they seem to forget that it's the morals not the stories we should follow(LIKE Mother Goose Fale Tales) and it was made by people, who are too stupid and greedy to every get those stories right or use them for them for the right purposes, and Free Will is the only way we will know what God, real or imagined, really wants from us.

[Exclavius]

RougeWolf22:

You hit on a key issue here, and it's one I've for years struggled with.

Yes there is a middle ground, however I do not believe that it can be stable. (by my interpretation of the memetic conflict)

You CAN (but few do) believe in X-ianity by exercise of free will... BUT DO NOT QUOTE ME saying that no one does.

Most of the seeds that turn that choice are planted early, and by media, and by parents, even if 100% inadvertent.

 

Most people that choose by so called free will, yes, they are choosing, but only to some extent, they are born with a bent towards a decision to do so.

 

Keep in mind, though, in what you said, if you believe the bible is more a piece of literature intended for the morals that it contains, does that not lean you more and more towards viewing god as only a concept, rather than an existing entity? I do not say free will will destroy the concept of the god as an entity, rather that a god as a concept will replace a god as an entity. It is more that free will is the battlegrounds by which the two memes compete. And each blow struck by religion using free will, is also a strike against itself.

 

There are also a great deal of people in this world that believe (off the hand, new age pagans being first to mind) that believe so much in the concepts like Ying and Yang, and balance. They too would argue that in neither direction lies the answer, instead a balance in between.

 

I'm not trying in any way to dictate between a right and a wrong, an is and isn't... Instead I'm putting for the way i view the world, if you choose to disagree, well, that is you exercising your free will, and has no conflict whatsoever with my philosophy.

However, when you force a child, or brainwash anyone else, into disagreeing with the power of free will, then you are violating the concept I'm putting forth. Legally.. It's your right to do so, Morally, well.. i myself said that Free Will alone dictates morality, and that each persons' own free will, will dictate a different morality based on the person and the situation.

But if you do enforce your view on another, instead of letting them full access to free will, with as much "Education, not Indoctrination" as possible, then do not grieve or blame them when they too take control of the free will you usurped from them, and use it against you, either to resent, hate, avenge, destroy or simply shun you.

 

An insight into myself: that and more WAS done to me. I do resent it, and i cannot ever again "love" my parents as a result of it.

I do not avenge, hate, or shun them, we are still close, but "love" is not a word I could ever again use. Others might call what i have with my family love, but i will not call it so.... Love has enough meanings as it is, I will not burden it with another.

My life is a shambles because of what was forced on me as a child, I have a lot of healing to do between now and being happy in life, but as i find ways to understand things, I will share them within whatever venue will listen.... If i help another, just one other, that will make it all worth the while. Also listening to constructive criticism from others helps me iron out and understand the world even more.

 

The natives believed that if you usurped another's free will that you would break, or wound the circle of life, and that the spirits would be out of wack for hundreds of years, and that reincarnations would occur to undo the wrong. Do no quote me on that, I do not understand their lore fully, and it can vary from tribe to tribe.

Either way, from a spiritual point of view, or a here and now physical world before me point of view, by usurping another's free will, you risk great danger to the balance of both lives and the power of their wills.

 

All in all, your free will is yours... You can surrender or seize it as you see fit.

Surrendering it, is easier, and you will find a simpler life, and it may be sufficient for you. You can let others think for you, and tell you what to do, and you can even, if you want, judge each order/dictate... But after a time, few people will, they'll just go along.

Other's however, that will not be sufficient for, and I am one of them. We wish and need to control our own destiny.

Do not think i put down surrendering it... I do not, I respect, with every ounce of me, your right to do so. It is wrong for me though, and it is wrong for others. All i put down is usurping another's free will.... Even (And especially) your child, or someone whose trust is placed in you.

 

I was born a slave,

And found what i though to be freedom.

Only to find it was but a protest,

Cried from the mouth belonging to shackled hands.

And thus, what freedom i had left,

Was surrendered unto the law.

So now, as i seek my newest freedom,

I will understand and test it.....

E'er I ever celebrate again.

(that's original, and just written now)

[Guest RougeWolf22]

That sucks, that religion got you to that point. I was also force to go to church on Sun. and Sat. School(and missed out on the best cartoons of the week), but I was lucky to be born with a thick skull(at least on this issue). The morals stuck(with heavy reinforcement from my parents) yet I never got into the worship portion of it.

I've lived a unique life thank to it.

You might be able to get a glimse of how I think if you check out my topic of 'Church of Beyond'. I have a strong belief that conscienceness can become so strong in this life that it can live beyond it. It might make it seem like I don't dwell enough in the life I'm currently living, but nothing could be farther from the truth. I have goals that I wish to see through, I'm just always looking toward the future. I'm just eternally curious, and death is the greatest mystery in the world. By the basic nature of you intial question I whole heartly agree That Free Will can be a God, It can lead us on our own paths forever or doom us to a flock following that(in my opinate) is worse then death. Then there the inbetweeners: the rare modest, open minded individuals who can share their believes freely in hopes of finding a better path.

Which one I will probably fall in, I dare not say(mainly cause I don't have a clear picture of myself)

[Guest Nacirema]

Here's my question to anyone with a deterministic point of view:

If everything we do is set in stone, then why bother questioning it at all? Everything will happen as it's supposed to happen.

Similarly, if there is no free will, how could you have chosen to question reality at all?

[Guest RougeWolf22]

Here's my question to anyone with a deterministic point of view:

If everything we do is set in stone, then why bother questioning it at all? Everything will happen as it's supposed to happen.

Similarly, if there is no free will, how could you have chosen to question reality at all?

Paths in life isn't about fate, it's nature. We are born into certain families and in certain place where our choice are limited. Rulers in the past have claimed to be choosen by God(hell us American had one just a few months ago), living under that rule, that combine with those certain families that I mention, makes the path very limited to us. The question then comes up why not just defy that rule, human are social creatures, a falling out with that rule can cause much pain. Some people don't have that ruler in their lifes usually have limited paths as well the eduction and jobs that they can get them on a path that is equally as hard to stray off of.

Free Will is the only thing that can make these paths we travel, or wandler off of, any fun.

It not a question of fate or not. There are path for us all, the longer we stay on these path the easier it gets, but we usually have to trade free will to do this act.