Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Jesus In, Jesus Out


Guest end3

Recommended Posts

You raise valid points L4A......perhaps the age of accountablility statement was not the best choice of words...rather her intent was lead by good, not evil. To me that is somewhere around the age of accountablility....

 

What was her intent? If we take the Gospel accounts at all seriously, then the conception of Jesus was forced upon her. A choice was not presented. She was simply told that she had found god's favor. Frankly, this reminds me of some books and movies were an attractive young woman catches the attention of the vile ruling king who decides he would like to bed the wench. The king would send his servant who would tell the victim, you have found favor in the eyes of the king! And then take her off to become a part of his harem!

 

I appreciate your comments, but I don't know that our lack of knowing the details keeps us from always understanding the message even in a physical environment.

 

But the lack of details does harm us when looking at these stories. We do not know what elements are truth and what are fiction. We don't know how to interpret any of the supposed events as symbols and what those symbols mean because we are not given a key by which to interpret them. And, further, as previously indicated, if the virgin birth narratives were to be considered symbolic, then you would think that the writers of the epistles (especially Paul) would make at least some reference to the events and symbols. Instead, the rest of the New Testament is silent. This silence (i.e. lack of details) SCREAMS that the event itself is insignificant ... that no one paid any real attention to it and that it has no real bearing on Christian dogma (despite what occurred with it centuries later as a result of Catholic doctrine).

 

Again...seems like an elaborate story that fits together pretty well.

 

No, it does not. Not at all. I believe that you (anyone, really) could take just about any passage from just about any book (even a newspaper or internet article) and do the same sort of symbolic work and come up some elaborate story that seems to fit together well. This is more the genius of the human mind than anything else. We are able to make just about anything from anything if we just give it enough thought. All you have to do is draw your parallels and off you go into LaLa land.

 

I guess the question is, does it have relevance?

 

No. It does not. I could make the same assertions (i.e. create interesting symbolic connections) with just about any story. Shall we examine Homer's works and discover the secret, symbolic messages there? How about War and Peace? Let's dig deep into the poems of Shel Silverstein. Certainly the hand of god is there in symbolic form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 60
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Looking4Answers

    11

  • today

    7

  • Antlerman

    6

  • florduh

    3

You raise valid points L4A......perhaps the age of accountablility statement was not the best choice of words...rather her intent was lead by good, not evil. To me that is somewhere around the age of accountablility....

Yeah... but you wouldn't listen to me saying it. ;)

 

Maybe if I were Catholic I would understand the Mary issue better? :P

If you were you wouldn't dare make posts about the Blessed Virgin's hymen on an Internet site full of infidels! Tell that one in confession and see if you get forgiveness or not. :HaHa:

 

I guess the question is, does it have relevance?

Depends what you're trying to say with the symbolism. Say something relevant, and if you can do it through the story, then its relevant. ..... ....... waiting.... ......... still waiting..... .........

 

 

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) She was unwed and a virgin.

2) She was still young enough to not have been influenced by Satan....(the age of accountability thing)

3) She seemed to have faith in God.

 

In other words, she was unknown by man in Satan's environment.

Virgin? Still young enough? Below the age of accountability? Sound's like you just described a little pre-teen girl, not even yet an adolescent. This of course would make God a pedophile, selecting little girls still too naive to know any better. Damn End. If the church still had power to boil people in lead for blasphemy you would be a pencil right now. :HaHa:

 

 

No, see, you can't go there.....the age of accountablility can potentially vary between people, so Mary could have well been over "preteen" as you put it. Obviously, your mind went to preteen you liberal pervert. Heck, even in our enlightenment, 18 years is it. I am also understanding no one to know Mary's age.....you?

 

Tell me you have something better :)

 

Edit: Question to you....you are claiming societal laws supersede Gods laws?

 

Funny how large portions of Chrisitanity adhere to original sin doctorine. All are born into sin and there is no "age of accountability". Funny how god had a bear rip some children to death for teasing a prophet. Funny how god had no problem ordering the deaths of everyone in Sodom (babies included) because they were sinful. Age of accountability is just some feel good thing isn't it? To make your god seem less of a vindictive butcher?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Also, if you look at the tabernackle, it is also set up somewhat like a woman's body....

 

You've been reading Alan Watts' Two Hands of God haven't you?

 

 

I limit myself to Readers Digest and an occasional instruction manual if need be. Honestly, no Chef, never heard of the man or book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. It does not. I could make the same assertions (i.e. create interesting symbolic connections) with just about any story. Shall we examine Homer's works and discover the secret, symbolic messages there? How about War and Peace? Let's dig deep into the poems of Shel Silverstein. Certainly the hand of god is there in symbolic form.

 

It does have relevance L4A, to many people. The point is to me now, not a year ago, but now, is that it is relevant depending on what outcome I perceive to be true. Certainly, the story does not work for everyone, but works for some.

 

Kind of end of conversation, no? I have found many people here to be neat people, even the kind I would share my beer . Also, I enjoy the visits here mainly for the "conflict", the battle if you wish....nothing like a good conversation that makes you think...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

End3,

 

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with you and I don't mind the debate. I also enjoy conversations that make me think. I just can be a bulldog from time to time.

 

It does have relevance L4A, to many people. The point is to me now, not a year ago, but now, is that it is relevant depending on what outcome I perceive to be true. Certainly, the story does not work for everyone, but works for some.

 

The problem is not whether the story has relevance to someone, somewhere at some time. I recently read a sci-fi/fantasy series and it had a lot of relevance to me. The problem is when the story is accepted as truth and one tries to model their lives or belief systems after the story. And then, when the story is stated to be false for this reason or that reason (or it is shown that it could be false, etc) the individual jumps to the realm of symbolism in an attempt to resurrect the story ... that can certainly be a problem. And I am not necessarily saying you are doing this.

 

You see, to many people in many parts of the world, the Bible is the book of truth. The Bible is the book that dictates how a man is to live his life, what he is to think and what he is to believe. This elevates the Bible to a new level of scrutiny, especially since it promises eternal bliss to the one that believes and follows and also eternal punishment to the one that fails to do so. As a result, the scrutiny this book demands does not allow for a lot of leeway when examining either its claims or its stories. This is one reason that I will go on the attack even when someone tries to find some strange symbolism to try to explain why a specific biblical story is in the Bible.

 

I maintain that the story of the virgin birth is nothing more than a story. I believe that it was not stuffed with symbolism nor was it intended to be symbolic by the authors that penned it. It seems to me that if the story (and any symbolism) was relevant, then the other New Testament writers would have capitalized on it. They fact that no one seems to bat an eye at the virgin birth in the rest of the New Testament is rather telling. It seems that the writers of Matthew and Luke were simply grabbing a hold of common, well-known legends of other messiah myths and attributing them to their messiah, Jesus (as seems to be the case with many other things said of this Jesus).

 

Kind of end of conversation, no?

 

Only if you choose to close the discussion. And, if so, then what was the point in starting it in the first place? You certainly knew that people here would have objections to these thoughts. Why not consider them and argue against them or for them (depending on where your thoughts and research take you)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You raise valid points L4A......perhaps the age of accountablility statement was not the best choice of words...rather her intent was lead by good, not evil. To me that is somewhere around the age of accountablility....

Yeah... but you wouldn't listen to me saying it. ;)

 

Maybe if I were Catholic I would understand the Mary issue better? :P

If you were you wouldn't dare make posts about the Blessed Virgin's hymen on an Internet site full of infidels! Tell that one in confession and see if you get forgiveness or not. :HaHa:

 

I guess the question is, does it have relevance?

Depends what you're trying to say with the symbolism. Say something relevant, and if you can do it through the story, then its relevant. ..... ....... waiting.... ......... still waiting..... .........

 

 

:)

 

I don't want you to feel left out AM, so I will share the rest of the revelation with you....it comes down to the two Adam thing...the first being made by God from dust, the second from Heaven.

 

Long story short....Eve was formed from Adam while he was "asleep", a part of Adam......We are children of this Adam....

Here is the cool part. While Jesus was "asleep" on the cross, the guard poked Jesus in his side letting the blood and water out. This is the life and spirit to start the formation of the second Eve ( the church I would assume). She has the Life and Spirit of God, but not a new body yet....which would be the resurrection body of the believers. She still has the old Adamic body.....ours.

 

So you see, it goes back to the birthing process as we had mentioned.....broken hymens, washed by blood and water when born by Adam 1,......broken Body, given the blood and water from Adam 2's side, somewhat washed by the blood and water until total rebirth.....new and pure from Adam 1 until defiled, new and pure by Adam 2 when reborn again.

 

The cool part I had not see until yesterday was the "asleep" on the cross thing.....but I sure some idiot has seen that too. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

End3,

 

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with you and I don't mind the debate. I also enjoy conversations that make me think. I just can be a bulldog from time to time.

 

It does have relevance L4A, to many people. The point is to me now, not a year ago, but now, is that it is relevant depending on what outcome I perceive to be true. Certainly, the story does not work for everyone, but works for some.

 

The problem is not whether the story has relevance to someone, somewhere at some time. I recently read a sci-fi/fantasy series and it had a lot of relevance to me. The problem is when the story is accepted as truth and one tries to model their lives or belief systems after the story. And then, when the story is stated to be false for this reason or that reason (or it is shown that it could be false, etc) the individual jumps to the realm of symbolism in an attempt to resurrect the story ... that can certainly be a problem. And I am not necessarily saying you are doing this.

 

You see, to many people in many parts of the world, the Bible is the book of truth. The Bible is the book that dictates how a man is to live his life, what he is to think and what he is to believe. This elevates the Bible to a new level of scrutiny, especially since it promises eternal bliss to the one that believes and follows and also eternal punishment to the one that fails to do so. As a result, the scrutiny this book demands does not allow for a lot of leeway when examining either its claims or its stories. This is one reason that I will go on the attack even when someone tries to find some strange symbolism to try to explain why a specific biblical story is in the Bible.

 

I maintain that the story of the virgin birth is nothing more than a story. I believe that it was not stuffed with symbolism nor was it intended to be symbolic by the authors that penned it. It seems to me that if the story (and any symbolism) was relevant, then the other New Testament writers would have capitalized on it. They fact that no one seems to bat an eye at the virgin birth in the rest of the New Testament is rather telling. It seems that the writers of Matthew and Luke were simply grabbing a hold of common, well-known legends of other messiah myths and attributing them to their messiah, Jesus (as seems to be the case with many other things said of this Jesus).

 

Kind of end of conversation, no?

 

Only if you choose to close the discussion. And, if so, then what was the point in starting it in the first place? You certainly knew that people here would have objections to these thoughts. Why not consider them and argue against them or for them (depending on where your thoughts and research take you)?

 

I don't consider myself a complete idiot L4A.....and I am thinking I am grasping your point.....certainly we have many understandings we did not possess before science and perserverence. (I am a chemist type myself), but the point is we certainly can't define truth in the physical and only have faith in the Spiritual, so for me, I still hold stock in the story. I know that you can't take it always to the literal, but I don't deny the possibility that the relationships it suggests might be a physical certainty if I "knew" how or if I perservered long enough to see them come to light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the virgin birth is really so important to christianity, then why is it only related in one gospel? If most seem to agree that "virgin" is actually a mistranslation to begin with, isn't the issue moot? If it was a mistranslation, doesn't the symbolism derived from it fall apart?

 

IMOHO,

:thanks:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the virgin birth is really so important to christianity, then why is it only related in one gospel? If most seem to agree that "virgin" is actually a mistranslation to begin with, isn't the issue moot? If it was a mistranslation, doesn't the symbolism derived from it fall apart?

 

The virgin birth is in TWO Gospels: Matthew and Luke.

 

The word "virgin" is not mistranslated in the Gospels. The Greek word for virgin is used in both Matthew and Luke. The possibly mistranslation is from the Old Testament prophecy in Isaiah (Isaiah 7:14) where the Hebrew word "almah" is used. The Hebrew word "betulah" is considered the specific word for "virgin" while the word "almah" typically means "young woman" or "maiden."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are one of the people that I find some resonance with TR....for when I look at the story, sometimes I see what could be more of men's beliefs at the time, and as you say, limiting the larger god, the one you profess.

 

For now though, I am still a Christian, but I wanted to let you know I have more than once considered your perspective.

 

Thanks end. I can understand why a lot of people would want to hold on to believing in christianity. The world can be pretty damn mean. Injustices occur and oftentimes go unpunished,and the world can be a very frightful and uncertain place. This morning my mother mentioned a story in the newspaper about two parents(I use the word parent loosely) who broke their six year old son's arm and the arm and leg of their six month old son. Reading about such horrors no doubt makes us wish there was some sort of punishment after death for those who commit atrocities such as this.

 

However, according to the bible, Yahweh's punishment is beyond severe lasts forever, and is also inflicted upon those who's only major sin is they didn't "get saved". When I read about those who viciously abuse children and the helpless, I won't lie, my heart does get filled with rage. I want to beat the shit out of these bastards. But even given the means to keep them alive, I wouldn't brutally torture them for the rest of their lives. I would become as monstrous as the people I was "punishing".

 

This is the problem of eternal damnation. If, there was a hell, for the punishment of sin, and the purification of the sinner's soul so they could eventually be pardoned and ascend to heaven, that would be one thing. However, as said before, even those whose only sin was not accepting christ, according to christian doctrine would be tormented forever, even if they were the most loving, self sacrificing person, to walk the earth.

 

Of course, there's a problem with why should we need to be punished at all , if , referring back to the fall of man, Yahweh set us up to fall. Makes him seem unimaginably cruel, tempting us just so he could, punish Adan and Eve and their descendants who didn't toe his line. Why should they be punished if Yahweh made it possible to have a so called sinful nature?

 

 

End, I like to think there is some sort of higher power, and there is survival after death, but I can neither believe nor accept the omnipotent tyrant of the bible. If I'm swallowed up by oblivion after I take my last breath, so be it.

 

In regard to my view of God, a very wise and good man explains it a lot better than I could here:The Age of Reason-Thomas Paine

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.