Proud Of What You Haven't Done

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

Yeah - they create artificial divisions in society... Sorry, I'm just not up on the "pride" stuff either. You are what you are, great. Doesn't mean you deserve a parade...

 

Lemme guess, you're a white guy....

 

 

Lmao...

[woodsmoke]

Speaking as a middle-class suburban white kid, I can see where skankboy's coming from. Ideally, that should be the case.

 

It's just, y'know, we don't live in anything even vaguely approaching an ideal world.

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

Virtue is its own punishment.

- Aneurin Bevan

 

Since when was virtue not doing something? I like the quote btw .

[mwc]

Yeah - they create artificial divisions in society... Sorry, I'm just not up on the "pride" stuff either. You are what you are, great. Doesn't mean you deserve a parade...

 

Lemme guess, you're a white guy....

So you're cool with the "white pride" parades? I'll let them know you're on board Mr. Beaner.

 

mwc

[Skankboy]

So you're cool with the "white pride" parades?

 

Exactly. Double standards are OK when they give you an advantage?

 

It's like I used to have a friend that was a fairly militant Feminist. She got so pissed when I explained that if what we really wants is equallity (not just a reversal of dominance) she should advocate Humanism instead. She was especially pissed when our mutual friend (an avowed female) agreed with me.

 

To me, it just seems like divisive posturing.

 

My 2 cents...

[Casey]

Oh well just take Hitler as an example. There was a man who didn't drink, didn't smoke, and was kind (to his mother). He might have lived to be a hundred, if he hadn't been such a quarrelsome old bugger ... and so might a few million others, come to think.

Casey

[OpheliaGinger]

Oh well just take Hitler as an example. There was a man who didn't drink, didn't smoke, and was kind (to his mother). He might have lived to be a hundred, if he hadn't been such a quarrelsome old bugger ... and so might a few million others, come to think.

Casey

 

Hitler had pretty bad Parkinson's and he was also an unwitting drug addict--he was pretty much high on crack, meth, speed, and other narcotics because his doctor gave him them.

 

Anyone up to a virgin pride parade?

[Vomit Comet]

So you're cool with the "white pride" parades?

 

You mean like St. Paddy's Day, or Polish fest? Sure. Cinco de Mayo's coming up, just so you know.

 

If you mean this kinda shit...

 

 

Then no, can't say that I am.

 

I'll let them know you're on board Mr. Beaner.

 

Are you trying to make a joke? Because if you were, I'm letting you know that it fell really flat and was in poor taste.

 

And if you weren't....

[Vomit Comet]

Exactly. Double standards are OK when they give you an advantage?

 

There was a big gay pride parade in Las Vegas today. I was gonna go with a bunch of my friends but I needed to catch up on my sleep.

 

Straight pride? That doesn't make much sense, unless you're trying to intentionally make a statement that gay people won't cotton to.

 

It's like I used to have a friend that was a fairly militant Feminist. She got so pissed when I explained that if what we really wants is equallity (not just a reversal of dominance) she should advocate Humanism instead.

 

In the 1960s, the radical movements often glossed over or neglected women's issues. Women were often there to make the coffee, and revolution-making was seen as men's work. If the women complained, they were told to pipe down, because there would be time to worry about such trivialities after the revolution. I'm sure that as a rule, whatever humanist groups were active then weren't much better.

 

The 1970s feminism was in large part a reaction to the hypocrisy of 1960s progressivism and radicalism.

 

So no, humanism was not adequate. It may have been so on paper, but it wasn't in practice. To me, that's not too far removed from saying that environmentalism is unnecessary because humanism can address that, too. Well, it didn't.

 

To me, it just seems like divisive posturing.

 

I see it as trying to undo the damage. Being gay is nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to keep in the closet. Something like a gay pride parade is a public assertion of this.

[mwc]

You mean like St. Paddy's Day, or Polish fest? Sure. Cinco de Mayo's coming up, just so you know.

 

If you mean this kinda shit...

[snip pic]

Then no, can't say that I am.

So how does St. Patrick's Day or Polish fest equate to "White Pride?" What if you're neither of those particular groups? Sure, others participate but that doesn't mean the same. Oh, that's right...white guys are white guys. One white guy type day is as good as the next, right? I'm not Irish. I'm not Polish. I don't drink. I'm not Catholic. I can screw in a light bulb. But I guess these days scream "White Pride" to you? I should just take them?

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned Cinco de Mayo. Does that mean I'm an honorary Mexican?

 

Are you trying to make a joke? Because if you were, I'm letting you know that it fell really flat and was in poor taste.

 

And if you weren't....

A joke and, fortunately, a point. You've self-referenced as a "beaner" a number of times. As if you were saying it with "pride." But it appears that you "own" the word (ie. I cannot make reference to you as a "beaner" even in jest). What this means is to say "Black Pride," as a white person, is more condescending than not. If I were to wear a shirt that said "White Pride" I can tell you that neither "St. Paddy's Day" nor "Polish Fest" leap to anyone's mind. Not one person will say "Hey! I'm Irish!" (and depending on what neighborhood I wear it in I'm not sure how safe I'd be). But they will go, instead, to the picture you posted. You altered the argument to fit a new definition. You watered it way, way down.

 

mwc

[Vomit Comet]

I'm not sure why you mentioned Cinco de Mayo. Does that mean I'm an honorary Mexican?

 

If you like!

 

Makes more sense than being an "honorary Hispanic" or "honorary brown", dontcha think? I don't use the term brown. It could cover everyone from Mexicans to Indians from India. Makes even less sense than the term "white" because there's a lot more brown people on this planet. I don't like Hispanic either. It was invented by a Nixonian bureaucrat because the Cubans wanted to feel specialer than the Mess'kins and Ricans.

 

A joke and, fortunately, a point. You've self-referenced as a "beaner" a number of times. As if you were saying it with "pride."

 

No. With irony, not with pride. White guy calls me that in real life, and with few exceptions*, I am obligated to take it as fightin' words.

 

*The exceptions, in no particular order: 1) he's a close friend; 2) he's a white guy that grew up in the barrio; 3) or he's always been around Mexicans and knows how to josh around with it without stepping over the line.

 

But it appears that you "own" the word

 

I don't own shit.

 

(ie. I cannot make reference to you as a "beaner" even in jest).

 

This is because, as far as I know, you haven't met any of the above three exceptions. For all I know you've never known or met a person of Mexican descent in your entire life.

 

What this means is to say "Black Pride," as a white person, is more condescending than not. If I were to wear a shirt that said "White Pride"

 

They go with "Black" because they can't go with "Ghana" or "Mali." "Black" is all they got, but "black" is by no means meaningless. There is a genuine African-American culture, would you not agree? Is it not something that should be celebrated? Or should it be swept under the rug or melted down in the name of banishing the accursed hyphen? Why the dislike of diversity? Why the imperative for homogeneity?

 

Now, I go with "Mexican-American", and black people envy us because we can pinpoint where we came from. Or at least that's what I've been told by many of them.

 

I can tell you that neither "St. Paddy's Day" nor "Polish Fest" leap to anyone's mind.

 

What leaps to mind when people say "White Pride" is some asshole with a shaved head, knee-high Doc Marten boots, red suspenders, and a hard-on for the fantasy of him and his buddies going around like a Viking war party collecting the severed heads of Jews and black people.

 

Why?

 

Because those are the guys that actually use that term. I can't think of anyone else that does, except for some of the trailer park kids I grew up around who were kind of dilly-dallying on the fence between run-of-the-mill bigotry and radical racism. Some of them became full blown radical racists as older teenagers, or they went to prison and got swastikas tattooed on their face or something.

 

So good luck trying to re-appropriate the term "white pride" from them. They've ruined it for the foreseeable future. It's about like trying to rehabilitate the term "Blood and Soil."

 

And why does the majority need a pride parade? To counteract the effects of reverse racism? To bring back the old racial hierarchy for fun and profit? To tell those minorities what's what? It makes about as much sense as a straight pride parade.

[chefranden]

...I disagree with legislating what can and can't be done inn privately owned restaurants and bars...

 

Would that include legislating against robbing in bars and restaurants? How about raping in bars and restaurants? How about legislating against fat people getting ripped and dancing nude on the bar? How about legislation against having a copy of Achy Breaky Heart on the Jukebox?

[mwc]

If you like!

Okay. I'm busy that day so I'm going to see if I can't celebrate today.

 

Makes more sense than being an "honorary Hispanic" or "honorary brown", dontcha think? I don't use the term brown. It could cover everyone from Mexicans to Indians from India. Makes even less sense than the term "white" because there's a lot more brown people on this planet. I don't like Hispanic either. It was invented by a Nixonian bureaucrat because the Cubans wanted to feel specialer than the Mess'kins and Ricans.

There's a Carlin routine on this that I'm sure can explain better than I do. It just makes little sense to take pride of being born a color. Tada. I'm a color. Yay! Or, in my case, a variant of pale. What the hell did you do to be proud about? Nothing. Not one thing. You didn't make anything. You didn't destroy anything. You didn't do anything. You were just born. And now you're supposed to be proud? The point of the thread is "Proud of what you haven't done" and if there's something people haven't done it's choosing their skin color. Yet they're proud of that.

 

This is because, as far as I know, you haven't met any of the above three exceptions. For all I know you've never known or met a person of Mexican descent in your entire life.

Then you haven't been paying attention. I've mentioned more than once that I live in Riverside. I'm not sure how anyone lives in the IE without coming across a Mexican or two. I was born and raised in Hemet. There's a couple of Mexicans out there too. That's like four.

 

They go with "Black" because they can't go with "Ghana" or "Mali." "Black" is all they got, but "black" is by no means meaningless. There is a genuine African-American culture, would you not agree? Is it not something that should be celebrated? Or should it be swept under the rug or melted down in the name of banishing the accursed hyphen? Why the dislike of diversity? Why the imperative for homogeneity?

This isn't about diversity. This is about something you haven't done. They were born black. It's an artificial thing to be proud about. This isn't to say "Woe is me. I am black." And it isn't to say "I am super great because I am black." It's just "I was born black." It's a neutral statement. If you could choose your skin color or it was something awarded through effort then this would be different. It's not.

 

If they wish to celebrate a culture that is different and not what I'm speaking about.

 

Now, I go with "Mexican-American", and black people envy us because we can pinpoint where we came from. Or at least that's what I've been told by many of them.

Same as above. You mentioned "brown" above. Now you're onto something else. Not all browns are Mexicans. "Brown Pride" would mean what? Mexican-American culture? No. So it is useless.

 

[snip neo-nazi stuff]

And why does the majority need a pride parade? To counteract the effects of reverse racism? To bring back the old racial hierarchy for fun and profit? To tell those minorities what's what? It makes about as much sense as a straight pride parade.

The majority needs a parade for the same reason anyone else needs a parade. Because they should be able to have a parade. You want to discriminate against the majority. That isn't right. It's as wrong as discriminating against the minority. Both hold a place in society and deserve parades and whatnot. Equal access. Not separate but equal. Not equal but a little more for these others. Mexicans will be in charge (at least in SoCal and likely most, if not all, of CA) in less than 50 years so I truly hope you think these things through before then.

 

You see all this as protest and on and on. Fine. So then the Gay Pride parade should actually be directed, not at the majority, but at the Mormon's and blacks because they're the ones that screwed them over with Prop. 8. Parades aren't about "pride" but demonstrations against their opponents. They should be targeted as such.

 

But I'm saying that if one group gets a parade based just on skin color, something that is simply a side-effect of birth, then all groups should be parades based on the same. So black pride. Brown pride. White pride. Red pride. Yellow pride. Tan pride. If just being born is enough then parades for all. It's not about a culture. It's not about diversity. It's not about a single thing that you did. It's about your skin. On some calendar day you will look at the color chart and if you fall into the range then you too can be in the parade. Celebrate. Be proud of what you haven't done. I think people would take this stuff a lot less seriously.

 

mwc

[Looking4Answers]

Coming from Jewish descent, I often looked at these "pride" things with a bit of confusion. Because my skin was "white" I have often been treated like I am a part of the majority (white pride?) but being of Jewish heritage, I am of one of the smallest minorities (and one that has been persecuted for centuries and blamed for everything from killing Christ to bringing the Black Plague into existence). So where's my parade?

[Vendredie]

Coming from Jewish descent, I often looked at these "pride" things with a bit of confusion. Because my skin was "white" I have often been treated like I am a part of the majority (white pride?) but being of Jewish heritage, I am of one of the smallest minorities (and one that has been persecuted for centuries and blamed for everything from killing Christ to bringing the Black Plague into existence). So where's my parade?

Oddly enough, I may be a minority because my grandmother's from Kentucky. I'm white too! Where is my parade?

 

But seriously, enough with the parades and campaigns. I don't see the point of being proud of being born into something, nor do I see the point of being proud of not smoking pot/tobacco/drinking/having sex/eating meat. How are they achievements?

[Vomit Comet]

There's a Carlin routine on this that I'm sure can explain better than I do. It just makes little sense to take pride of being born a color. Tada. I'm a color. Yay! Or, in my case, a variant of pale. What the hell did you do to be proud about? Nothing. Not one thing. You didn't make anything. You didn't destroy anything. You didn't do anything. You were just born. And now you're supposed to be proud? The point of the thread is "Proud of what you haven't done" and if there's something people haven't done it's choosing their skin color. Yet they're proud of that.

 

Okay, now I see what you're getting at.

 

And you've been missing the point.

 

Then you haven't been paying attention.

 

It's not like I keep a file on everybody.

 

And there is indeed a lot of "White Pride" out there in the IE. A scary amount. As much as my brother and I had to deal with those clowns over in L.A. County, I reckon we got off fairly easy from what my friends from the IE tell me.

 

This isn't about diversity. This is about something you haven't done. They were born black. It's an artificial thing to be proud about. This isn't to say "Woe is me. I am black." And it isn't to say "I am super great because I am black." It's just "I was born black." It's a neutral statement. If you could choose your skin color or it was something awarded through effort then this would be different. It's not.

 

If they wish to celebrate a culture that is different and not what I'm speaking about.

 

Uh, that's what I have been speaking about all along. We're on two different pages here.

 

Basically, here's how it works:

 

1. For a very long time, up until fairly recently (and it hasn't quite gone away, you know), black people were told their culture was shit, just like they themselves were shit.

 

2. In the 1960s when the pot started to boil over and assimilationism wasn't cutting it anymore, many black people turned and said "fuck you, no it ain't."

 

3. "Black Is Beautiful", etc. etc. This came about to counter all the ideological shit that black kids and black adults had had heaped on their heads since well before the Civil War and for nearly a century after it. To the point of it being internalized.

 

4. And that's the basis of Identity Politics. For a very long time, they were told their "identity" was tantamount to dog shit, and most black people had internalized that for a very long time. Identity politics is saying "fuck you, no it ain't."

 

Wiki: Identity Politics

 

To me it's about undoing all that negative internalization, standing up for your rights, and saying "fuck you, we aren't dog shit." And just because it's not as bad now as it was in the mid 1960s doesn't mean everyone should just go home. There remains work to be done.

 

The majority needs a parade for the same reason anyone else needs a parade. Because they should be able to have a parade.

 

In order to counteract the profound effects of centuries of... what exactly? If you had such a parade, it would be something else entirely than what I've been talking about. Also, I've never been to one of these "parades" you speak of, aside from Gay Pride. And I ain't gay. I've participated in immigrant rights, anti-racism, and other issues that effect Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and others...

 

...I've been a member of the evil scary MEChA, which is intended to promote education, betterment, and political consciousness in the community we happen to come from (and who better to reach out to members of that community than... members of that community?)...

 

...but I've never been to a "Brown Pride" parade. I'm not even sure that I've ever known of one taking place, in fact. So, this isn't about pride parades. I am defending the idea of identity politics.

 

You see all this as protest and on and on. Fine. So then the Gay Pride parade should actually be directed, not at the majority, but at the Mormon's and blacks because they're the ones that screwed them over with Prop. 8. Parades aren't about "pride" but demonstrations against their opponents. They should be targeted as such.

 

Collective Identity. Solidarity. Celebration. Why should those not be in the mix? Who are you to say they ought not be? What makes you think these are such destructive, lamentable forces?

 

As for pride, here's how I see it.

 

Pride = "fuck you, we're not dog shit."

 

Pride = stop fucking with us, we ain't gonna take this shit.

 

Pride = the opposite of shame, of subservience, of inferiority. All of which were internalized into non-whites psyches for a very long time.

 

Pride = we're disadvantaged, but we don't have to be. Let's fix our shit.

 

Pride = there is much to celebrate about us, contrary to what the bigoted assholes say.

 

It has nothing to do with being born into anything, although that was the basis for discrimination and worse.

[Vomit Comet]

Oddly enough, I may be a minority because my grandmother's from Kentucky. I'm white too! Where is my parade?

 

I agree that Appalachian people should stand up for themselves. They're about the last people in America where it's okay to trash them in polite company and not be seen as a bigoted asshole. Personally, I try to go out of my way to avoid using terms like "white trash" or "ridge runner" because I'm 1/2 Okie myself (the bottom of the barrel when it comes to California white folks), and that side ultimately hails from the Great Smoky Mountains of TN/NC, and they've been getting shit from the flatlanders since the 17th century.

 

 

But seriously, enough with the parades and campaigns. I don't see the point of being proud of being born into something, nor do I see the point of being proud of not smoking pot/tobacco/drinking/having sex/eating meat. How are they achievements?

 

Like MWC, you miss the point.

[Vomit Comet]

Coming from Jewish descent, I often looked at these "pride" things with a bit of confusion. Because my skin was "white" I have often been treated like I am a part of the majority (white pride?) but being of Jewish heritage, I am of one of the smallest minorities (and one that has been persecuted for centuries and blamed for everything from killing Christ to bringing the Black Plague into existence). So where's my parade?

 

B'nai Brith, Anti-Defamation League, Simon Wiesenthal Center, etc. etc. Not to mention any number of cultural/community organizations not pertaining to discrimination and persecution.

 

Hell, we can throw in the Jewish Defense League if you like.

[Neon Genesis]

I have to agree with VC. I think there's a huge difference between something like gay pride parades and something like virginity "pride" where you really are being proud for what you haven't done. Things like gay pride parades are not just about being proud for not doing anything but are also about standing up for equal rights, gay marriage, the right to have a job, etc so they're doing more than just being proud for not doing anything. They actually are doing something. Gay Pride is basically a quick way of saying "I ain't taking shit from no one no more." Recently I heard about how in Afghanistan where they made it legal for husbands to rape their wives and forbid women from being allowed to leave the house without a man and the women did a march where they were walking down the streets while not wearing the traditional Muslim garb to protest. Would you say those women's march was just about being proud for something they haven't done? That they weren't doing something important like making their voices heard? http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20090416...aw-on-Home-Life

KABUL, Afghanistan — The young women stepped off the bus and moved toward the protest march just beginning on the other side of the street when they were spotted by a mob of men.

 

 

“Get out of here, you whores!” the men shouted. “Get out!”

 

The women scattered as the men moved in.

 

“We want our rights!” one of the women shouted, turning to face them. “We want equality!”

 

The women ran to the bus and dived inside as it rumbled away, with the men smashing the taillights and banging on the sides.

 

“Whores!”

 

But the march continued anyway. About 300 Afghan women, facing an angry throng three times larger than their own, walked the streets of the capital on Wednesday to demand that Parliament repeal a new law that introduces a range of Taliban-like restrictions on women, and permits, among other things, marital rape.

[Vendredie]

I agree that Appalachian people should stand up for themselves. They're about the last people in America where it's okay to trash them in polite company and not be seen as a bigoted asshole. Personally, I try to go out of my way to avoid using terms like "white trash" or "ridge runner" because I'm 1/2 Okie myself (the bottom of the barrel when it comes to California white folks), and that side ultimately hails from the Great Smoky Mountains of TN/NC, and they've been getting shit from the flatlanders since the 17th century.

Yeah. My family is Appalachian. Does that make me, a middle-class white kid from North Carolina, an inbred hick? No it does not. Unfortunately Appalachians are poor and thus don't quite get the education anyone else does. But really, whose fault is that?

 

 

Like MWC, you miss the point.

I think I get the point now. It's not about being proud of being born into something, it's being proud of standing up for it. Right?

[mwc]

Okay, now I see what you're getting at.

 

And you've been missing the point.

No. You've missed the point. See thread title.

 

It's not like I keep a file on everybody.

I remembered your shit... *sniff*

 

 

And there is indeed a lot of "White Pride" out there in the IE. A scary amount. As much as my brother and I had to deal with those clowns over in L.A. County, I reckon we got off fairly easy from what my friends from the IE tell me.

The only place I have *ever* encountered any neo-nazi's was over in OC. Out here I've run into the shit-kickers (they're the "white pride" cowboy types but I don't know how far they take it) and the gang bangers (we've got a lot of taggers actually...the gangs more up in San Berdo).

 

But are you saying this to say I'm now more likely to be one of these people since this was in response to you wondering if I've even met a Mexican? So now I must really be terrible since the IE is that much worse? Considering you side-stepped the issue that you raised I'll assume that's your strawman.

 

Uh, that's what I have been speaking about all along. We're on two different pages here.

Ding ding ding. Give that man a prize. He realized he's speaking off topic.

 

Of course we're on two different pages. But since you continue I'll go ahead and take a look at what you're saying...

 

To me it's about undoing all that negative internalization, standing up for your rights, and saying "fuck you, we aren't dog shit." And just because it's not as bad now as it was in the mid 1960s doesn't mean everyone should just go home. There remains work to be done.

So you equate parades (we'll have to assume parades and not skin color) with "identity politics." You've now politicized parades. They're now more "protest marches" or "demonstrations" than a simple "procession of people" (like with floats and simply a general celebration). They are a "statement" (a political one at that).

 

This is good to know since it brings us to this...

The majority needs a parade for the same reason anyone else needs a parade. Because they should be able to have a parade.

 

In order to counteract the profound effects of centuries of... what exactly? If you had such a parade, it would be something else entirely than what I've been talking about. Also, I've never been to one of these "parades" you speak of, aside from Gay Pride. And I ain't gay. I've participated in immigrant rights, anti-racism, and other issues that effect Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and others...

As I said. To counter-act nothing. It's a parade. Not a protest march. Not a demonstration. Not a political statement. A bunch of people. A celebration of something. Some floats. Maybe some bands. That is what a parade IS. You've altered the meaning to fit an agenda.

 

Now. We've had parades to celebrate things like going to the moon. Quite the feat. But, protests aside, would you really hold a parade for a skin color? Not a parade about what culture(s) that color may represent, or all the other issue you wish to draw into this, but the skin color itself? You might but it would be absurd. By taking the political aspect out it is easy to see that skin color alone is not enough.

 

...I've been a member of the evil scary MEChA, which is intended to promote education, betterment, and political consciousness in the community we happen to come from (and who better to reach out to members of that community than... members of that community?)...

 

...but I've never been to a "Brown Pride" parade. I'm not even sure that I've ever known of one taking place, in fact. So, this isn't about pride parades. I am defending the idea of identity politics.

And so you need to start a thread about "identity politics" it would seem. Since this thread is about "Proud Of What You Haven't Done." Having pride over skin color or sexual orientation when you did nothing to be that way is silly.

 

Identity politics is about fighting the oppression of various underclasses using a number of tactics.

 

These topics are mutually exclusive. A simple example:

 

"I deserve a parade because I am gay."

OR

"I will use a parade to raise awareness of the gay community and their treatment in society."

 

Two different things entirely. I am against the first (this thread) and I also support the second (your topic). Mutually exclusive and not contradictory.

 

I am not confused on these issues. You are simply trying to conflate them and it is a disservice to your own cause.

 

Collective Identity. Solidarity. Celebration. Why should those not be in the mix? Who are you to say they ought not be? What makes you think these are such destructive, lamentable forces?

Why do you keep trying to make me out as something am I not?

 

As for pride, here's how I see it.

 

Pride = "fuck you, we're not dog shit."

 

Pride = stop fucking with us, we ain't gonna take this shit.

 

Pride = the opposite of shame, of subservience, of inferiority. All of which were internalized into non-whites psyches for a very long time.

 

Pride = we're disadvantaged, but we don't have to be. Let's fix our shit.

 

Pride = there is much to celebrate about us, contrary to what the bigoted assholes say.

 

It has nothing to do with being born into anything, although that was the basis for discrimination and worse.

And your definition shows that your idea of "pride" is loaded with "contempt" and "bigotry" (you easily equate "bigots" with "white" via all your definitions). You appear to have a lot of anger. You've made it clear elsewhere that only certain groups are entitled to make their voice heard.

 

mwc

[Vomit Comet]

So you equate parades (we'll have to assume parades and not skin color) with "identity politics." You've now politicized parades. They're now more "protest marches" or "demonstrations" than a simple "procession of people" (like with floats and simply a general celebration). They are a "statement" (a political one at that).

 

So the gay pride parades should cease and desist, is what you're saying.

 

And so you need to start a thread about "identity politics" it would seem. Since this thread is about "Proud Of What You Haven't Done." Having pride over skin color or sexual orientation when you did nothing to be that way is silly.

 

I've never been to one of these "accident of birth" parades you speak of. Even a gay pride parade is much, much more than that. Frankly, to reduce these happenings to mere "accident of birth" is a rather myopic view of things. It's much more than that. Much more.

 

Identity politics is about fighting the oppression of various underclasses using a number of tactics.

 

These topics are mutually exclusive. A simple example:

 

"I deserve a parade because I am gay."

OR

"I will use a parade to raise awareness of the gay community and their treatment in society."

 

Two different things entirely. I am against the first (this thread) and I also support the second (your topic). Mutually exclusive and not contradictory.

 

I am not confused on these issues. You are simply trying to conflate them and it is a disservice to your own cause.

 

You are going by an incredibly strict dictionary definition of "parade" here.

 

Gay pride parades are lots of wild fun, and they are also prime examples of identity politics. Nothing like a good ol' gay pride parade to rub it in the face of homophobes everywhere, to invite innocent bystanders in on the fun, to get that "collective effervescence" fizzing away, to feel like you're not the only gay person in town, and to remind yourself that there's nothing to be ashamed of. And... just as importantly... an opportunity to get yo' freak on in public.

 

You know, when they try to have gay pride parades in Moscow, the skinheads would come out and beat the holy living shit out of them and send them running for their lives, while the cops looked on smirking. It takes a lot of balls to throw a gay pride parade in a place like that. It's certainly not a mere trifle in that instance, yes?

 

No contradiction. Not mutually exclusive. No sir, it ain't.

 

Why do you keep trying to make me out as something am I not?

 

I was trying to see if you were one of those "Angry White Males" TM who thinks that minorities should go home and stop whining. Which was why I brought up the matter of identity politics. Good to know you're not.

 

And your definition shows that your idea of "pride" is loaded with "contempt" and "bigotry" (you easily equate "bigots" with "white" via all your definitions). You appear to have a lot of anger. You've made it clear elsewhere that only certain groups are entitled to make their voice heard.

 

No, I don't have a lot of anger. Trust me, I don't. But this thread got a little under my skin, I will admit. I thought I was dealing with some "Angry White Males" TM here. Thankfully, it looks like I am not.

 

But with that said...

 

...why would straight people need a pride parade?

 

Why?

 

Why would it be equally good and beneficial as a gay pride parade is? If you don't think it is, then go ahead and ask gay participants and they will tell you that it is. Would you then dismiss their opinion wholesale because of your strict dictionary definition of what a "parade" is and is not?

 

Or are you trying to say that both a gay pride parade and a straight pride parade would be equally stupid and needless when evaluated by some hovering abstract principle of reason and rationality?

 

Well, I'll let our gay friend here address that, if he'd like.

[mwc]

So the gay pride parades should cease and desist, is what you're saying.

No. That's what you're trying to get me to say by confusing the topics.

 

You are going by an incredibly strict dictionary definition of "parade" here.

 

Gay pride parades are lots of wild fun, and they are also prime examples of identity politics. Nothing like a good ol' gay pride parade to rub it in the face of homophobes everywhere, to invite innocent bystanders in on the fun, to get that "collective effervescence" fizzing away, to feel like you're not the only gay person in town, and to remind yourself that there's nothing to be ashamed of. And... just as importantly... an opportunity to get yo' freak on in public.

 

You know, when they try to have gay pride parades in Moscow, the skinheads would come out and beat the holy living shit out of them and send them running for their lives, while the cops looked on smirking. It takes a lot of balls to throw a gay pride parade in a place like that. It's certainly not a mere trifle in that instance, yes?

 

No contradiction. Not mutually exclusive. No sir, it ain't.

And since you cannot avoid conflating these ideas in your mind this conversation will never progress past this point. We are at an impasse.

 

I was trying to see if you were one of those "Angry White Males" TM who thinks that minorities should go home and stop whining. Which was why I brought up the matter of identity politics. Good to know you're not.

With all groups, minorities or not, people have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. Some at the fringes of those movements will make it more difficult for the larger movement since they're more radical and that's what people tend to notice.

 

No, I don't have a lot of anger. Trust me, I don't. But this thread got a little under my skin, I will admit. I thought I was dealing with some "Angry White Males" TM here. Thankfully, it looks like I am not.

I'll take your word for it.

 

...why would straight people need a pride parade?

It's not about need. It's about equality. Something you've argued for but overlooked when it doesn't suit you. Equality does not mean giving something to a minority group but not the majority group simply because they are the majority. If one qualifies the other does too.

 

BUT if you see the parade as a political statement, as you do, then you cannot see things clearly on this most basic level. You simply see a big "middle finger" coming from the gays (in your example) but then a larger "middle finger" firing back from the majority. This would be unacceptable and so should be denied. If it's just about a parade then both should be one. You've added the extra commentary. You've politicized it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar my friend. You tend to just see penises.

 

Why would it be equally good and beneficial as a gay pride parade is? If you don't think it is, then go ahead and ask gay participants and they will tell you that it is. Would you then dismiss their opinion wholesale because of your strict dictionary definition of what a "parade" is and is not?

 

Or are you trying to say that both a gay pride parade and a straight pride parade would be equally stupid and needless when evaluated by some hovering abstract principle of reason and rationality?

 

Well, I'll let our gay friend here address that, if he'd like.

Based on the context of the thread title I would say both are equally absurd. Based on your idea of only allowing for politicized events for minority causes then we'd only have the Gay Pride parade of course. In my view both should allowed. Equal rights trumps all. People want to glorify how they like straight sex then fine by me. They want to go have their gay parade. Have at it. How does one negate the other?

 

I'm atheist. I'm ex-c. Should I find a way to only allow sites with my views on the net? I want to be heard! I want to voice to be the loudest! Those xian sites are diluting my message! It would be great to censor the world so only mwc's message was heard (actually that would suck and even I think so) but it would be wrong. So if you believe that only allowing certain messages to be heard in a certain fashion is the only way to accomplish a goal then so be it. I'm going to continue to disagree with you. Just like I believe you are off topic in this thread.

 

mwc

[Vomit Comet]

And since you cannot avoid conflating these ideas in your mind this conversation will never progress past this point. We are at an impasse.

 

Your definition is too narrow, mine is too broad. Apparently.

 

 

With all groups, minorities or not, people have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. Some at the fringes of those movements will make it more difficult for the larger movement since they're more radical and that's what people tend to notice.

 

Radical Flank Effect

 

Stonewall Riots

 

ACT UP

 

It's not about need. It's about equality. Something you've argued for but overlooked when it doesn't suit you. Equality does not mean giving something to a minority group but not the majority group simply because they are the majority. If one qualifies the other does too.

 

Do you and other straight people feel a pressing need to have such a parade? You're going by sheer abstract principle here, not real world pragmatics.

 

BUT if you see the parade as a political statement, as you do, then you cannot see things clearly on this most basic level. You simply see a big "middle finger" coming from the gays (in your example) but then a larger "middle finger" firing back from the majority. This would be unacceptable and so should be denied. If it's just about a parade then both should be one. You've added the extra commentary. You've politicized it.

 

Eh... they can be more polite than framing it as a "middle finger." Gay pride parades are supposed to be fun, after all. Just because I'm an asshole doesn't mean they have to be.

 

Based on the context of the thread title I would say both are equally absurd. Based on your idea of only allowing for politicized events for minority causes then we'd only have the Gay Pride parade of course. In my view both should allowed. Equal rights trumps all. People want to glorify how they like straight sex then fine by me. They want to go have their gay parade. Have at it. How does one negate the other?

 

Nobody's talking about allowing or disallowing anything. So I must again ask: why would straights need a pride parade? What conceivable function would it serve?

 

Gay Pride You cannot reduce this to "yay for me, I'm gay by accident of birth." It is a positive, constructive force that goes well beyond that.

[mwc]

Do you and other straight people feel a pressing need to have such a parade? You're going by sheer abstract principle here, not real world pragmatics.

I didn't before but since you've pushed so hard I now have a NEED to have such a parade for no other reason than I was apparently born straight. You can question me until the cows come home but that is the SOLE reason. I was born straight therefore I NEED a parade.

 

Eh... they can be more polite than framing it as a "middle finger." Gay pride parades are supposed to be fun, after all. Just because I'm an asshole doesn't mean they have to be.

Okay.

 

Nobody's talking about allowing or disallowing anything. So I must again ask: why would straights need a pride parade? What conceivable function would it serve?

It serves whatever purpose it serves. Hopefully that of a parade. If a parade can be based on sexual orientation then the criteria is set for applications. All sexual orientations now get equal treatment under the law.

 

mwc