Proud Of What You Haven't Done

[AKR]

Even then, to be honest (and this probably sounds awful) that's not even going to work. There would have to be wayyyy more vegans for the demand for meat to go down. I can get behind the idea of veganism/vegetarianism, it's just that I like to eat meat. you can be a vegan... it's not going to stop meat production.

 

 

Great argument, so let's all own slaves, and buy blood diamonds, and poor oil into our rivers, and so on and so forth. Every bit of change helps and for you to DISCOURAGE people from respecting animals because it isn't a big enough difference for you is pretty lame.

 

 

 

 

As long as you aren't a vegan, no. Guess what happens to all the little calves that are a byproduct of dairy production? And you better don't take any meds either, as they require animal testing.

 

 

So, let me get this straight. If a million people don't eat meat, they are going to kill and abuse the same amount of animals? Do you know how stupid that sounds? It's like saying if I stop driving my car but still use plastic, the same amount of oil will be used and the same amount of pollution will go into the air. No one has to stop doing EVERYthing to have an impact. Your statement is completely irrational.

 

 

 

AKR, consider this a mod warning. This site is set up to encourage and support ex-Christians. You are not encouraging and supporting anyone by your behavior in this thread.

 

Let's all please lay off the ad homs.

 

 

Noted, but this thread wasn't exactly positive before I got here, or was it positive when I was told to shut up and I was called a douche. This thread has nothing to do with supporting or encouraging anyone. In fact, this thread is rather discouraging in nature. I have no problem watching my language and behavior, but I certainly hope this isn't another one of those forums that are horribly lop-sided in their moderation.

[AKR]

Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do?

 

I'm going to risk getting cussed at, but the point is that while it's good not to be those things, that doesn't automatically make you a good person. Abstaining from doing those things means that you're not a monster, so while your social status is upgraded from "monster" to "human being", it's not at "good person". It's kind of the same with abstaining from smoking, drinking, sex, etc. as a teen. Those things don't automatically make someone a good person, it just makes them someone who doesn't do those things. Someone who doesn't do those things could also be a total jerk who kicks puppies and steal lollipops from little kids. In short, it's what you do that makes you a good person, not what you don't do.

 

 

I could use your same argument and say that you could also kick puppies and steal lollipops all while doing good things. You could still do good things and be a horrible person as well. It's a combination of both, and there's no reason someone shouldn't be just as proud of abstaining from things as someone is of doing things. Neither abstaining from things or doing things makes someone good, but either one of those things is certainly better than the alternative.

[AKR]

I think you guys missed the point of what Ven is saying: She knows its a good thing to care for the planet...but the problem is that it's become a bandwagon and tons of people are following it not because they care about the environment, but because they are lemmings who think they can get something for themselves out of the whole ordeal if they follow suit.

 

What started out as a few people doing what was right because they felt it was right ( fighting pollution and negative ecological impacts ) has slowly but steadily grown into a pop culture phenomenon. Based on her posts, I think it's the hivemind effect that she is annoyed by and not what it is they are actually doing.

 

Take companies for instance...for years no one gave a shit abut going green and now all of the sudden now that its the in-thing corporations are lining up left and right to see who can be the greenest. Is this a bad thing ? Of course not. Its great! The problem is their reasons. Are they really doing it for the environment? Do these people really give a shit? I know many of us do, but lets not forget that the evidence of this planets decline due to environmental destruction has been around for decades. Only now that the idea of being environmentally safe has become popular appeal does business give a shit. Suddenly, the same companies that were laughing the people who were suggesting that the company consider that they adopt more eco-friendly policies out the door...are now going green when the public eye changes? The side of me that wants to have faith in humanity tells me that some of these fat cats really did turn over a new leaf; however, the realistic side of me tells me that these twits are mostly doing it for the PR. They don't give a shit about economic disaster, they just want to "go green" in order to win people over in hopes that they will buy their products. It's a new gimmick for them to exploit, that's what they really see this as. While it's nice to see people finally paying some more attention to the environment, its absolutely disgusting that they are only doing it when it's gotten bad enough to the point where it is in their best interest.

 

This problem of using the environmentally friendly fad to boost social status isn't just limited to big business. I see people bragging about how green they are around downtown San Francisco. Instead of "Holier than thou" it is "Greener than thou". It's like "going green" has become the new yardstick for dick-measuring contests. This is bad. People should do it because they actually understand why it should be done, not just because it makes them look good.

 

 

 

It's quite presumptuous to state why anyone is doing (or not doing) these things. Ok, for the most part, when it comes to corporations, especially ones with horrible histories, we know exactly why, but I don't believe the OP was talking about them. I believe she was speaking of individuals, and you can't just make generalistic statements and claim to know why people are behaving this way. Sure, there are always going to be sheep, but I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging sheep to do things that help others or to just let them feel good about doing good things and not doing bad things. I really don't know why people get so worked up over something that has such a positive effect. Oh, wait, I do. Because they love eating meat and they hate it when they are reminded that animals have feelings and deserve respect too.

[Amethyst]

I didn't mean to say to shut up about your lifestyle completely. I'm sorry you took it that way, really. It's cool to be a vegetarian, and to be open about why you're doing something like that. It's just that cramming it down people's throats is when snobs are born. That's what I meant by "just shut up!"

 

There is another side of the coin I find annoying too... when you *do* abstain from something that's generally socially acceptable, people who don't abstain turn into huge dicks too. *le sigh*

 

I think there's nothing wrong with being vegetarian or vegan, so long as people don't start acting like religious fundamentalists do about it. But there are meat eaters who act that way, too. You have no idea how many people think you absolutely must have meat protein, as if meat protein is somehow more magically good for you than vegetable protein. Actually, the science says otherwise.

 

I myself have been pescatarian...not as strict a diet, because pescatarians eat fish, but I still got crap from it from my religious relatives who think god put animals on the earth for everyone to abuse as they please. I'm personally against factory farms for that reason; they do not treat animals humanely. Traditional family farms, OTOH, I don't have a problem with. I'm not entirely sold on the idea of making young children eat a vegetarian/vegan diet, because their bodies are still growing. But for adults, whatever you choose is fine IMO.

[Guest Marty]

Even then, to be honest (and this probably sounds awful) that's not even going to work. There would have to be wayyyy more vegans for the demand for meat to go down. I can get behind the idea of veganism/vegetarianism, it's just that I like to eat meat. you can be a vegan... it's not going to stop meat production.

 

This is very true, but I try to remind myself of what Ghandi said..."You must be the change you wish to see in the world." That is the only way to live. Don't preach it, live it. I don't care if how I live changes anything. I disagree with the way things are and so I decided to live differently. It is only to calm my own conscious. I would like others to join in, but I could really care less. People are selfish, greedy and ignorant of how their lives harm the environment, and they are happy in their ignorance. Once I discovered how much waste and garbage I produce, however, I couldn't continue. It bothers me, but not as much as I would be bothered if I never changed anything about my lifestyle. I can only change me.

 

I didn't quit smoking with the hope of closing tobacco plants down.

 

I didn't quit caffeine in the hopes of shutting down Starbucks.

 

I didn't stop eating fast food with the hope of closing those restaurants down.

 

I didn't stop eating refined foods and start eating more local foods in the hope of shutting down national food producers and distrubitors.

 

I did all these things because they are good for me, and society as a whole. But the bottom line is it improved my life.

[Guest Marty]

Noted, but this thread wasn't exactly positive before I got here, or was it positive when I was told to shut up and I was called a douche. This thread has nothing to do with supporting or encouraging anyone. In fact, this thread is rather discouraging in nature. I have no problem watching my language and behavior, but I certainly hope this isn't another one of those forums that are horribly lop-sided in their moderation.

 

I agree here. I see no reason this thread was started except to flame people...

[Amethyst]

Ex-C has had a long-standing policy of free speech, however if a thread gets out of control, it can and will be closed.

[Vendredie]

Even then, to be honest (and this probably sounds awful) that's not even going to work. There would have to be wayyyy more vegans for the demand for meat to go down. I can get behind the idea of veganism/vegetarianism, it's just that I like to eat meat. you can be a vegan... it's not going to stop meat production.

 

This is very true, but I try to remind myself of what Ghandi said..."You must be the change you wish to see in the world." That is the only way to live. Don't preach it, live it. I don't care if how I live changes anything. I disagree with the way things are and so I decided to live differently. It is only to calm my own conscious. I would like others to join in, but I could really care less. People are selfish, greedy and ignorant of how their lives harm the environment, and they are happy in their ignorance. Once I discovered how much waste and garbage I produce, however, I couldn't continue. It bothers me, but not as much as I would be bothered if I never changed anything about my lifestyle. I can only change me.

 

I didn't quit smoking with the hope of closing tobacco plants down.

 

I didn't quit caffeine in the hopes of shutting down Starbucks.

 

I didn't stop eating fast food with the hope of closing those restaurants down.

 

I didn't stop eating refined foods and start eating more local foods in the hope of shutting down national food producers and distrubitors.

 

I did all these things because they are good for me, and society as a whole. But the bottom line is it improved my life.

Yeah. All the "one person can change the world" crap they give us at school annoys me. One person can't change the world entirely on their own. Ghandi did not overthrow the British government in India on his own; it took many other people to do that too. In order to change the world, you need to convince a LOT of people to do whatever you're doing. Often it's more people than one person can possibly talk to at one time, so other people need to do the convincing. that and you really do have to be the change you want to see in this world. I'm trying to make myself healthier too, which includes less caffeine. I'm not going to give my parents an earful over their morning coffee. I'm also trying to be a lot more environmentally friendly. However, I'm not trying to be "green", just because of the preachy-ness it now entails. Going green is a fad, and it pisses me off because people just want to buy shit, and it's a bonus that it looks good/looks "green"/protects the environment/wipes your nose/etc. Then when they walk out of the store they get into their giant SUVs, realize they need gas, and fill up the tank. Yeah, way to protect the environment, jackass. *facepalm*

[Guest Marty]

But just because one person can not do it alone is no reason to continue living as if nothing was wrong. That is just laziness and shortsightedness.

[Vendredie]

Noted, but this thread wasn't exactly positive before I got here, or was it positive when I was told to shut up and I was called a douche. This thread has nothing to do with supporting or encouraging anyone. In fact, this thread is rather discouraging in nature. I have no problem watching my language and behavior, but I certainly hope this isn't another one of those forums that are horribly lop-sided in their moderation.

 

I agree here. I see no reason this thread was started except to flame people...

Are any of the threads in this board- RANTS AND REPLIES- very positive to begin with? I got sick of people turning self-betterment into fads. It pissed me off. I didn't start the thread to flame people. I have no problem with people trying to make themselves better- I have a problem with people who turn it into some some sort of crusade. It's a problem most posters in the Rants & Replies section have with Christians trying to force their ways on them.

[Vendredie]

But just because one person can not do it alone is no reason to continue living as if nothing was wrong. That is just laziness and shortsightedness.

That's true too.

[AKR]

I think there's nothing wrong with being vegetarian or vegan, so long as people don't start acting like religious fundamentalists do about it. But there are meat eaters who act that way, too. You have no idea how many people think you absolutely must have meat protein, as if meat protein is somehow more magically good for you than vegetable protein. Actually, the science says otherwise.

 

I myself have been pescatarian...not as strict a diet, because pescatarians eat fish, but I still got crap from it from my religious relatives who think god put animals on the earth for everyone to abuse as they please. I'm personally against factory farms for that reason; they do not treat animals humanely. Traditional family farms, OTOH, I don't have a problem with. I'm not entirely sold on the idea of making young children eat a vegetarian/vegan diet, because their bodies are still growing. But for adults, whatever you choose is fine IMO.

 

 

I wouldn't really put it on the same level as religion until you're not basing it on science. The science is behind vegetarianism and using less fossil fuel. We don't have to rely on faith that it is just as healthy or healthier for us; we don't have to rely on faith that it hurts animals to farm them the way many do or that it pollutes the environment, affect ourselves along with other species; we aren't all doing it because someone else told us we should, and if we encourage others to do it, it isn't for some mindless reason.

 

 

 

 

Ex-C has had a long-standing policy of free speech, however if a thread gets out of control, it can and will be closed.

 

 

Understood, but don't pretend I'm Mr. negative here, trashing a positive, uplifting thread. According to your reasoning for scolding me, you should be scolding the OP as well, but instead, you singled me out, as if I'm being negative in a positive thread. This thread was a negativing thread before I ever showed up. It is a thread meant to attack and discourage people like myself and some of the others here, so it seems a little strange to single me out and scold me for responding negatively to a negative thread.

[Skeptic]

Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do?

 

I'm going to risk getting cussed at, but the point is that while it's good not to be those things, that doesn't automatically make you a good person. Abstaining from doing those things means that you're not a monster, so while your social status is upgraded from "monster" to "human being", it's not at "good person". It's kind of the same with abstaining from smoking, drinking, sex, etc. as a teen. Those things don't automatically make someone a good person, it just makes them someone who doesn't do those things. Someone who doesn't do those things could also be a total jerk who kicks puppies and steal lollipops from little kids. In short, it's what you do that makes you a good person, not what you don't do.

 

 

I could use your same argument and say that you could also kick puppies and steal lollipops all while doing good things. You could still do good things and be a horrible person as well. It's a combination of both, and there's no reason someone shouldn't be just as proud of abstaining from things as someone is of doing things. Neither abstaining from things or doing things makes someone good, but either one of those things is certainly better than the alternative.

 

That is true, but the one point that I have a problem with is being proud that you don't do horrible things, like being a serial killer. I have never once thought that I was proud to not be a serial killer. I mean, the horrible things that you mentioned are things that one should abstain from, but that, for me, is a given. I'm not sure that we see people in the same way. I start out assuming that someone is a relatively good person (it's actually more neutral than good) and then, based on what I see of that person and how they come across to me, and also how others see them, I make a judgment either way as to whether that person is a person who I would want to associate with or not. For me, it goes deeper than just abstaining from smoking or whatever. There were kids who I went to school with who were considered the "bad kids" because they acted tough, they drank and smoke and all of that, but if you actually got to know them, they were a lot more genuine and honest than the "good kids" who didn't do those things. So yeah, if someone kicks puppies but is still a relatively good person, I wouldn't judge them as harshly. However, if someone is trying to act like a goody two shoes but picks on kids with disabilities or kicks people when they're down, it really strikes a nerve with me and I will judge them harshly.