Faith Like Potatoes

[florduh]

It doesn't make it necessarily true, but it doesn't make it untrue either. Our opinion, emotion, and stance makes it true on an individual level, not the events itself. Same with any other 'true' events.

 

Thanks for the link florduh.

 

A thing either happened or it didn't. Reality like that isn't up for debate. If you want to take a fictional event and pretend it's real, that's up to you. You can be inspired by the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" but the story and events depicted never really happened. Don't draw the wrong conclusion next time you hear a bell ring.

 

You're welcome for the "Communion - A True Story" link. I enjoyed reading it. It's not a true story either, but fun nevertheless. The aliens aren't real and you are in no danger of being abducted.

[Vigile]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

 

Would it make a difference? If the cameras were rolling? Then I feel it would just be either discredited as some type of film magic, or trick of magic in and of itself in content. It would be scrutinized in any attempt.

 

Yeah, it's surprising how anyone would want to test extraordinary claims like that. They should just believe them because someone said so like you apparently do. It would make things so much easier on the ones making the claims.

 

Here's logic 101 YoYo: An extraordinary claim demands extraordinary evidence. Dead coming back to life is an extraordinary claim.

 

If you tell me you went shopping today, I will just go ahead and believe you. Why? Because people go shopping every day. We have to go shopping to get food to survive. The claim is very ordinary.

 

If you tell me while shopping you were abducted by aliens and got an anal probe, then at that point I will demand much more evidence before I accept your claim since this does not fit into my realm of experience and understanding of reality. It may be true, but you have a very large burden of proof to be met before it can be accepted by reasonable people. If people swallow your claim without demanding this, then they are quite gullible.

[Dagan]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

Dammit you beat me to it

[Vixentrox]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

 

Oh they happen other places too! So YoYo...to you believe in these "miracles"? Don't you risk offending other gods if you don't buy into thier miracles?

 

 

http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/index.shtml

 

http://www.share-international.org/backgro...other.htm#Light

[Trike]

And ZOMG, don't you know that my pastor's mentor went to Africa during an outbreak of Bubonic plague and when he held some saliva in his hand from a person with the plague the plague died in his hands. Of course, there weren't any doctors or scientists to confirm that it died in his hands and my pastor never gave any details as to the time or place of this outbreak and similar stories have been trafficed around evangelical circles for the last 200 years or so. But, omg, it must be true!

 

Anyone who believes these stories is dumb. No corroborating evidence, always conveniently taking place in deep, dark jungles or poor slums where there are no methods of documentation (even in the 21st century, when there are cameras everywhere), and told by people who have everything to gain from such a tale (the pastor's church will grow, which means more money for him, a stint on the 700 Club, etc).

 

So, no, I haven't seen the movie b/c it follows the exact same story-line as every other "just so" story I heard growing up in the church. I was suspicious then and now.

[Antlerman]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

 

Oh they happen other places too! So YoYo...to you believe in these "miracles"? Don't you risk offending other gods if you don't buy into thier miracles?

 

 

http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/index.shtml

 

http://www.share-international.org/backgro...other.htm#Light

I was just thinking this question. That people can take these fictional stories as fantasy triggers to inspire faith is one thing, but to argue them as factual events is another. And to those who take them as evidence of the real the question is, when you hear about milk on a spoon disappearing into the mouth of the statues of Hindu deities, is your first response skepticism, or faith? Quick don't think about it, what's the first response? Therein lies the key to understanding the nature of these stories and the reality they are actually evidence of.

[florduh]

Anyone who believes these stories is dumb.

 

Ouch.

 

Phanta

 

He is definitely not dumb. Sometimes what we think is "open" and "receptive" is really gullibility and lack of critical thought.

 

Hell, we all want to believe in magic. In order to achieve that belief, a certain amount of denial is needed. I just can't kid myself anymore.

[Trike]

Anyone who believes these stories is dumb.

 

Ouch.

 

Phanta

 

Ok, maybe a bit harsh. But they do lack the capability for critical thought when it comes to their religious biases. Better?

[Abiyoyo]

When people here post how witches are being burned alive in Kenya, everyone is , 'Whooo, wow, man that is sick, etc, etc' But, now, when a Christian posts a movie based upon a true story, already journaled as a book, then the Christian is absurd, and believes in 'anything' he sees.

 

If you google “burning witches in Kenya,” you can find articles from MSNBC.com and BBC.com about the incident. If you check this site:<snip>

you will see that some Christians do not believe the story and the author himself does not claim that the person “raised from the dead” was dead, perhaps just unconscious. What proof is there of the raising, about as much proof as Bible raisings?

 

Although MSNBC and the BBC may not always be one hundred percent reliable, even fifty percent is infinitely greater reliability than zero percent for the Bible.

 

These stories were in some news, yet maybe not directly. I was actually waiting to see if anyone would mention the 'account' of the woman being raised from the dead, as I pondered myself, if she was really dead. So, good job. I personally don't think she was dead, just in some type of shock by the lightning.

[Abiyoyo]

However, there is no evidence, anywhere, of anyone regrowing a limb. No respected news reporting agency is talking about this as if it is truth. The AP wire is not carrying this story as if it were a truth, etc.

 

So there are vast differences between the stories. A little common sense and a little research ... it does not take much.

 

Nobody was arguing that someone grew back a limb L4A. Where you using the limb story as an example?

[Abiyoyo]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

 

Would it make a difference? If the cameras were rolling? Then I feel it would just be either discredited as some type of film magic, or trick of magic in and of itself in content. It would be scrutinized in any attempt.

 

Yeah, it's surprising how anyone would want to test extraordinary claims like that. They should just believe them because someone said so like you apparently do. It would make things so much easier on the ones making the claims.

 

Here's logic 101 YoYo: An extraordinary claim demands extraordinary evidence. Dead coming back to life is an extraordinary claim.

 

If you tell me you went shopping today, I will just go ahead and believe you. Why? Because people go shopping every day. We have to go shopping to get food to survive. The claim is very ordinary.

 

If you tell me while shopping you were abducted by aliens and got an anal probe, then at that point I will demand much more evidence before I accept your claim since this does not fit into my realm of experience and understanding of reality. It may be true, but you have a very large burden of proof to be met before it can be accepted by reasonable people. If people swallow your claim without demanding this, then they are quite gullible.

 

I understand your point virgile, but also have to contend with you here. Lets say someone was pronounced dead, and a man came in and raised this dead person to life again; no cameras, no creditable witnesses other than the doictors that pronounced him dead. Would that be viable? What if it was on camera? I ask again, viable?

 

My point is that even if it was recorded, documented, witnessed, video taped, explained, there will always be some type of criticism in that corner of life. It's just natural. It's not about God or faith, or Jesus; it's just about common human logic. I, a believer in Jesus and the power of God, was skeptical of the 'raising of the dead', yet I see that whether she was dead or not, these people were influenced, and other great things happened in this small commune in the aftermath, which inspired me.

[Abiyoyo]

Miracles always occur in Africa and New Guinea where cameras aren't rolling and no one is available to be interviewed. It's a miracle!

 

Oh they happen other places too! So YoYo...to you believe in these "miracles"? Don't you risk offending other gods if you don't buy into thier miracles?

 

 

http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/index.shtml

 

http://www.share-international.org/backgro...other.htm#Light

I was just thinking this question. That people can take these fictional stories as fantasy triggers to inspire faith is one thing, but to argue them as factual events is another. And to those who take them as evidence of the real the question is, when you hear about milk on a spoon disappearing into the mouth of the statues of Hindu deities, is your first response skepticism, or faith? Quick don't think about it, what's the first response? Therein lies the key to understanding the nature of these stories and the reality they are actually evidence of.

 

I never argued the factualness of it, just wrote that it was a true story. Regardless, it seems even the author isn't sure that the girl was dead. But, me living in a drought stricken state, with many farm land abound; it inspired me just the part about the rain coming when the fire erupt, and his potato crop.

 

I don't doubt that their may be some type of twist, such as their may have been reports of a few showers in the area, or enough rain for the potatoes to grow; but it was implied in the movie that there were no reports of rain, when the fire broke free, and the area was severely in drought at the time of the potato crop, and before they planted. So, dunno. Just thought it was a good inspirational movie. :wink:

[Vigile]

Lets say someone was pronounced dead, and a man came in and raised this dead person to life again; no cameras, no creditable witnesses other than the doictors that pronounced him dead. Would that be viable? What if it was on camera? I ask again, viable?

 

This is a good question. The issue here remains that a dead man coming back to life is quite extraordinary. If it were just for a minute or so, not so much, but if he had been pronounced dead and came back a few days later this would certainly demand more than just testimony of even just one or two qualified medical professionals. Why? Because people can make mistakes and people can lie; even qualified ones.

 

My point is that even if it was recorded, documented, witnessed, video taped, explained, there will always be some type of criticism in that corner of life.

 

But there wouldn't be if even just one time the burden of proof were met in a reasonable way. What type of proof would need be provided for the claim that a dead man was regenerated, I don't know, but as I said, the claims of a one or two medical professionals wouldn't be enough since they could lie. The proof would have to supersede alternative, more reasonable explanations in order to be verified.

 

yet I see that whether she was dead or not, these people were influenced, and other great things happened in this small commune in the aftermath, which inspired me.

 

Antlerman would probably tell you that that is the most important point. Me, I'm probably more neutral. Nothing wrong with inspiration I guess as long as it doesn't lead you to foolish conclusions that lead to foolish actions.

[Abiyoyo]

Ok, maybe a bit harsh. But they do lack the capability for critical thought when it comes to their religious biases. Better?

 

Trike, your all good. I have thick skin. I have been called anything from dumb to delusional because of my 'biases' ways as you seem to put it. I ask though, Is it religious biases all the way, or some non religious biases? Am I the only biases person here?

 

I have been hurt as well by the church in many ways trike, we are not that much different. If it was Buddha, or Mohammad, Would your comment have been the same?

[Abiyoyo]

This is a good question. The issue here remains that a dead man coming back to life is quite extraordinary. If it were just for a minute or so, not so much, but if he had been pronounced dead and came back a few days later this would certainly demand more than just testimony of even just one or two qualified medical professionals. Why? Because people can make mistakes and people can lie; even qualified ones.

 

I agree. Today is a different world. Generations ago, a simple no breath to breath would be considered solid, but we have to much technology this day and time. Like I said earlier in the thread, she probably was in shock from the lightning. I'm sure some research would unravel the 'What happens' or testimony of lightning struck victims, maybe a state of 'like death' is normal for someone that got struck. Dunno. I'll look into it.

 

Antlerman would probably tell you that that is the most important point. Me, I'm probably more neutral. Nothing wrong with inspiration I guess as long as it doesn't lead you to foolish conclusions that lead to foolish actions.

 

I'm not going postal, or a Jesus spree virgile. If anything, it just reminded me that faith is important in my belief.

[florduh]

I never argued the factualness of it, just wrote that it was a true story.

See, statements like this confuse people. It is only a true story if it is factual. I could only conclude that you believed a person was really raised from the dead since you said it was a true story. Now you say you think she wasn't dead. So you shouldn't put it out there as a true story since there is no proof and even you don't believe it happened.

 

Now, given that nobody was actually raised from the dead, what value is the lie that they were? And if that most important part of the story was made up, what about the rest?

[buffettphan]

"I never argued the factualness of it, just wrote that it was a true story"

 

Then why did you ask if anyone has seen this true story?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited at 12:26 to say,

 

Sorry, florduh, I guess your reply posted when I was writing mine.

[florduh]

Well, Buffettphan, it just demonstrates that great minds think alike!

[Abiyoyo]

I never argued the factualness of it, just wrote that it was a true story.

See, statements like this confuse people. It is only a true story if it is factual. I could only conclude that you believed a person was really raised from the dead since you said it was a true story. Now you say you think she wasn't dead. So you shouldn't put it out there as a true story since there is no proof and even you don't believe it happened.

 

Now, given that nobody was actually raised from the dead, what value is the lie that they were? And if that most important part of the story was made up, what about the rest?

 

 

"I never argued the factualness of it, just wrote that it was a true story"

 

Then why did you ask if anyone has seen this true story?

 

 

That is how it is marketing and packaged, a true story. The headline for the movie is, a true story. I did not write it guys, just wanted to get your thoughts about it. Like I said, I am not arguing the factualness of it, I just wrote in the OP that it was a true story, and a man raised the dead; this all according to the flick.

 

Anyway, I don't see it as a lie nevertheless, because who am I or anyone else to accuse a farmer in Africa of being apart of the 2000year conspiracy of promoting Jesus/God of a miracle worker I will stick to, 'it is possible that the woman was in shock, and he didn't know that and thought God raised her from the dead' . I will give him credit though, at least he admits that he doesn't know if she was dead or alive at the time.

[florduh]

I officially give up.

 

YoYo, you're a good guy, and certainly not dumb, but I get headaches reading your posts.

[Trike]

Ok, maybe a bit harsh. But they do lack the capability for critical thought when it comes to their religious biases. Better?

 

Trike, your all good. I have thick skin. I have been called anything from dumb to delusional because of my 'biases' ways as you seem to put it. I ask though, Is it religious biases all the way, or some non religious biases? Am I the only biases person here?

 

I have been hurt as well by the church in many ways trike, we are not that much different. If it was Buddha, or Mohammad, Would your comment have been the same?

 

I have biases in favor of evidence and facts, not in favor of mythical sky men. And I do apologize for the comment, but when I saw you compare this story with a news article I blew my top. Nobody could in all honesty compare the two.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman would probably tell you that that is the most important point. Me, I'm probably more neutral. Nothing wrong with inspiration I guess as long as it doesn't lead you to foolish conclusions that lead to foolish actions.

 

I'm not going postal, or a Jesus spree virgile. If anything, it just reminded me that faith is important in my belief.

Nothing wrong with an inspirational story, and wrapping a message of hope or faith in a fictional account, like a child having a visit from the Kindly Easter Bunny on their death bed to grant their final wish, is merely a vehicle for the "truth" of hope that lives in us and wants a way to for us to experience it, so to speak. That's why I don't see a problem with seeing a "story" about some guy who prays and "God" causes it to rain, renewing his belief in hope.

 

But to be honest, I still wrangle with why people have to try to convince themselves and others that their "faith" has to be based on reality. To me that exhibits that they in fact do not have faith. They are weak in it, needing to have some proof in order to have hope. The Bible myths are stories. If those stories inspire faith, great. If someone needs to prove the stories as fact in order to "believe", then not so great. I equate faith, belief, hope, and inspiration as a human thing that does not require a God object to manifest in people. It can, but it's not required.

 

So how they should bill this film is "An inspiration tale of a man's faith". Great. Whatever. But no, they must sensationalize it, to market to those whose mentality of religious belief is lost in this notion of God in the real world offering scientific proofs to his weak followers.

[Abiyoyo]

But to be honest, I still wrangle with why people have to try to convince themselves and others that their "faith" has to be based on reality.

 

I don't think it was intentional AM. Experiences are apart of human evolution, Right? We as people live based around experiences. This man had an experience, intertwined with his new found faith in God, and in sheer faith and innocence, prayed and received. Now, we are the critics, just as a movie is criticized, and picked apart. That is the MO here, is underlining the truth of something, or better yet, what we perceive to be the truth. To anyone of us here, it may be merely inspirational, and maybe to some, just bogus movie magic, religious propaganda, conspiracy, etc; but to this man, it was as real as day and night. He did no wrong, and neither did the people that gathered the label, A true story; because according to him, it is true. Reality is that faith is true to the people that believe in faith, and it is factual that those people exist because we share the experiences of those 'faithful' moments to the rest of the world; whether that be your mom, brother, work, church, pastor, community, country, or the world.

[florduh]

Faith Like Potatoes, Anyone seen this true story? He raised the dead.

 

That's the problem. It didn't say, "This was an inspirational allegory" or, "The movie is a symbolic portrayal" or, "I don't think this actually happened, but it was an inspiring tale nonetheless." No, it was presented as a true story and it stated that he raised the dead. Of course rational people will challenge that.

 

It was an intentionally misleading title and post that started this non-debate. The poster apparently never thought it was a true story either, as was revealed several posts into the thread.

 

Let's discuss apples (but I really mean oranges).

[Abiyoyo]

Faith Like Potatoes, Anyone seen this true story? He raised the dead.

 

That's the problem. It didn't say, "This was an inspirational allegory" or, "The movie is a symbolic portrayal" or, "I don't think this actually happened, but it was an inspiring tale nonetheless." No, it was presented as a true story and it stated that he raised the dead. Of course rational people will challenge that.

 

It was an intentionally misleading title and post that started this non-debate. The poster apparently never thought it was a true story either, as was revealed several posts into the thread.

 

Let's discuss apples (but I really mean oranges).

 

I guess I will say it again. It was marketed a true story, the man wrote it as a true story, and I am sure to him, it felt all real. If I meant it to be a news report, I would've put it in the news thread. I put it here because I was sure it would raise some conversation. But, yes I did say that I was inspired by the movies, and yes I suggested that it may be possible that the woman was actually dead. The storyline of the movie and the book is that the man raised the dead. So, again, sorry for any confusion of what everybody thought I thought before I posted my thoughts, I think