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Goodbye Jesus

Brains --------what Are They Good For.


child like faith

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QUOTE (today @ May 11 2009, 07:36 AM)

It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

The bible also says our faith must be like that of a child. Matthew 18:2-4

Don't you think the author(s) of the bible knew that no one is easier to manipulate than a trusting child?

The churches and religious leaders continue the tradition.

 

Provers 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Translation: Brainwash 'em while they're young.

 

Ah, but I can cherry-pick with the best of 'em, so I choose this contradiction:

1Cor13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I no longer used childish ways.

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

And this doesn't strike you as perhaps a cop out to cover up the fact that biblical claims are nonsensical? It's pretty convenient don't you think?

I really don't see where the cop out or cover up is, it seems this that it is a statment,

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

And this doesn't strike you as perhaps a cop out to cover up the fact that biblical claims are nonsensical? It's pretty convenient don't you think?

I really don't see where the cop out or cover up is, it seems this that it is a statment,

You see there it is. God has confounded you.

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

So, you're saying that everyone who expresses himself ignorantly has a chance a being the true voice of God? Then I would suggest your best bet in finding God would be to go a circus and see which clown makes the most sense. No wait, making sense is bad! Find the most foolish, the most idiotic one you can... then follow him for your salvation.

 

That is what that verse means, isn't it? Or does it mean something other than what you're suggesting, which would be the above?

Antlerman

No i am not saying everyone who expresses himself ignorantly has a chance of being the true voice of God, but being ignorant does mean that one can still learn. making sense is not bad and to follow some one you just descibed will not bring you to salvation.

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

That seems rather contradictory with the verse that says God is not the author of confusion.

i don't see the confusion

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this n00b's brains aren't even fit for that. A zombie would see the brains, and run away. As fast as it could...

 

which isn't very fast, admittedly.

 

I wasn't necessarily referring to his brains. They wouldn't be too filling. Not enough grey matter.

 

By the way, that was pretty damn funny. I'm still laughing.

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

That seems rather contradictory with the verse that says God is not the author of confusion.

And that the unbeliever is said to be a fool. So what is it? The God who is not the author of confusion, confuses the wise people, and call them fools, while he say that the believer should be ignorant as a child...

I don't think unbelievers are fools, and the wise are not confused and they sure are not fools and yes children are ignorant but they are learning every day and every believer starts out ignorant and the only cure for that is to learn.

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

And this doesn't strike you as perhaps a cop out to cover up the fact that biblical claims are nonsensical? It's pretty convenient don't you think?

I really don't see where the cop out or cover up is, it seems this that it is a statment,

You see there it is. God has confounded you.

I get confounded every day with many things including the written word. i am always searching, looking, and praying for answers and some times when the answer comes i reason it away or anilize it to death.

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QUOTE (today @ May 11 2009, 07:36 AM)

It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

The bible also says our faith must be like that of a child. Matthew 18:2-4

Don't you think the author(s) of the bible knew that no one is easier to manipulate than a trusting child?

The churches and religious leaders continue the tradition.

 

Provers 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Translation: Brainwash 'em while they're young.

 

Ah, but I can cherry-pick with the best of 'em, so I choose this contradiction:

1Cor13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I no longer used childish ways.

I think that many men did exactly that, the word of God has been twisted around so many times, and yes that tradition continues, and i bet you that many religious communities use that same translation you just stated.

as for the cherry picking and the contradiction. it looks to me like learning and growing up is what it says

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I get confounded every day with many things including the written word. i am always searching, looking, and praying for answers and some times when the answer comes i reason it away or anilize it to death.

 

That works for you, does it? That's never worked for me. Ever. At least you got an answer to reason away or analyze to death. I got nothing. No matter how hard I prayed, even if I fell to my knees, which I did many times when I was still a xian, I got absolutely no answer. Everyone around me was telling me how they could literally hear the voice of god and I heard nothing. But hey, I guess he does actually answer someone. Isn't that special.

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I get confounded every day with many things including the written word. i am always searching, looking, and praying for answers and some times when the answer comes i reason it away or anilize it to death.

 

What I hear you saying here is that you need an answer, you pray, you get a feeling that you assume is some sort of an answer, then your rational brain balks and you then push those nagging rational thoughts aside because they feel something like doubt and you are afraid to doubt.

 

I could be completely off base here. :shrug:

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I get confounded every day with many things including the written word. i am always searching, looking, and praying for answers and some times when the answer comes i reason it away or anilize it to death.

 

That works for you, does it? That's never worked for me. Ever. At least you got an answer to reason away or analyze to death. I got nothing. No matter how hard I prayed, even if I fell to my knees, which I did many times when I was still a xian, I got absolutely no answer. Everyone around me was telling me how they could literally hear the voice of god and I heard nothing. But hey, I guess he does actually answer someone. Isn't that special.

 

Just look at it this way. At least you don't have the mental illness baggage of "hearing voices" to ditch, like some of us still do.

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I get confounded every day with many things including the written word. i am always searching, looking, and praying for answers and some times when the answer comes i reason it away or anilize it to death.

 

That works for you, does it? That's never worked for me. Ever. At least you got an answer to reason away or analyze to death. I got nothing. No matter how hard I prayed, even if I fell to my knees, which I did many times when I was still a xian, I got absolutely no answer. Everyone around me was telling me how they could literally hear the voice of god and I heard nothing. But hey, I guess he does actually answer someone. Isn't that special.

Skeptic

Yes it does work for me, it took me so long to be able to hear the voice of God and let me tell you, i had been hearing from God all my life i just wasn't listening, when every one was telling me that they had literaly heard from God i thought they were hearing the audible voice of God, i have not met anyone who has heard the audible voice of God and when i hear of someone who says they have I go and ask them to explain to me what and how.

I don't think anyone can tell you or show you how to hear from God or hear his voice.

I do think he is talking to everyone he created, every day, I don't know why some can hear him and some can't, i pray a lot about that and all i keep hearing at this time is you don't have to be special to hear me you just have to be able to hear. i know that the more i put the cares of the world away the more i hear God.

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QUOTE (today @ May 11 2009, 07:36 AM)

It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

The bible also says our faith must be like that of a child. Matthew 18:2-4

Don't you think the author(s) of the bible knew that no one is easier to manipulate than a trusting child?

The churches and religious leaders continue the tradition.

 

Proverbs 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Translation: Brainwash 'em while they're young.

 

Ah, but I can cherry-pick with the best of 'em, so I choose this contradiction:

1Cor13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I no longer used childish ways.

I think that many men did exactly that, the word of God has been twisted around so many times, and yes that tradition continues, and i bet you that many religious communities use that same translation you just stated.

as for the cherry picking and the contradiction. it looks to me like learning and growing up is what it says.

 

Which for me, growing up included shedding the brainwashing of christianity.

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Skeptic

Yes it does work for me, it took me so long to be able to hear the voice of God and let me tell you, i had been hearing from God all my life i just wasn't listening, when every one was telling me that they had literaly heard from God i thought they were hearing the audible voice of God, i have not met anyone who has heard the audible voice of God and when i hear of someone who says they have I go and ask them to explain to me what and how.

I don't think anyone can tell you or show you how to hear from God or hear his voice.

I do think he is talking to everyone he created, every day, I don't know why some can hear him and some can't, i pray a lot about that and all i keep hearing at this time is you don't have to be special to hear me you just have to be able to hear. i know that the more i put the cares of the world away the more i hear God.

"Hearing the voice of God" is an interesting concept. Since I believe "God" to be a symbolic word people use to express a wide variety of things, mostly abstractions, here's my take on what people means when using that phrase "hearing the voice of God."

 

It's a matter of learning to hear a certain "intuitive" "inner voice" (again using abstract symbols to express that). The "voice of God", is our own voice. It's a matter of taking impressions, "feelings", "leanings", etc derived from a certain collective subconsious pool of thoughts gained through experiences and letting them surface and have a voice, a voice that we "trust", or learn to trust as our part of our own. People call it "intuition", whereas it's really more a collective voice of our own experience "speaking" to us. People will symbolize this as "the voice of God", in that it seems to come from "nowhere" inside us. But it really is coming from us.

 

Additionally they use this term to distinguish it from rational thought, where we take this "impression", this "gut intuition", this "voice", and learn to utilize it without applying direct conscious rational though to dissect it, thus "second guessing ourselves", or "questioning the voice of God". To listen to it, is to act more with a certain "instinct". But again, it's not. Not rationally understood that is. It is rational thought, in that it emerges from a pool of experiences and knowledge all contained in our brains. It's just a matter of learning to "trust" it, or rather trust our abilities to know what "makes sense", what's a reasonable thing to choose, even if we can't necessarily rationally explain it - at the moment.

 

The metaphor I like to use is that of a dance. You feel the movement of your environment and respond to it physically, through a sort of "intuitive" choice in actions. The moment one starts analyzing, "left foot out, right foot back, and left, and left, now forward..." you aren't dancing.

 

God is such a versatile word. :)

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I don't know why some can hear him and some can't.

 

I do. There are two possible answers. The first is that if god exists, then there are people who he abandons to let them burn in hell, seemingly for no reason whatsoever. The bible even admits this in several places. Here's one: Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Your god abandoned me. He does not deserve my time, my prayers, my adoration, anything of me. The other answer would be that you just haven't realized yet that those thoughts that you think come from god really come from yourself. That's the one I'm banking on, because if your god really exists, which is highly doubtful, then all of us are screwed, including you. I understand the bible much better as an atheist than I ever did as a xian, and what I understand of it is that your god is immeasurably malicious, calloused, sadomasochistic, and mentally unstable. This is a god who watches children get abused day after day and sits there doing nothing, not to mention all of the other horrible things that happen to people that are very easily prevented, especially if the one trying to prevent them is omnipotent.

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No i am not saying everyone who expresses himself ignorantly has a chance of being the true voice of God, but being ignorant does mean that one can still learn.

But then you wouldn't be ignorant any more.

 

So does the Bible say: "be ignorant at first, then learn a lot, and then you're not ignorant anymore, but you're supersmart, so you outsmart the wise in the word?"

 

Or does it command you to be ignorant, now and in the future?

 

making sense is not bad and to follow some one you just descibed will not bring you to salvation.

Making "sense" requires reason, reason is a form of natural and rational wisdom, natural and rational wisdom is rejected by Biblical faith.

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And that the unbeliever is said to be a fool. So what is it? The God who is not the author of confusion, confuses the wise people, and call them fools, while he say that the believer should be ignorant as a child...

I don't think unbelievers are fools, and the wise are not confused and they sure are not fools and yes children are ignorant but they are learning every day and every believer starts out ignorant and the only cure for that is to learn.

The Bible say the "fool says in his heart, there is no God."

 

From when, until when, are you supposed to be ignorant according to the Bible?

 

Doesn't Paul say the salvation is foolishness to the world? And it makes the wise stand in shame? Doesn't this mean that God intentionally wanted the salvation to be a ludicrous concept, just because it would confound the smart people?

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It does say in the bible that, God will use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

That seems rather contradictory with the verse that says God is not the author of confusion.

i don't see the confusion

 

Well you see "to confound" means to cause confusion. When God confounds the wise, he is the author of confusion. So you see the statements are in contradi...

 

Oh never mind, you aren't smart enough to get it.

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Well to add to the confusion, God, if the bible is its word, gave several plans of salvation all of which were supposed to be "good forever". I wouldn't trust that Paul's methods are any better than the others, or even trust that it is the last. Mohamed's (PBUH) method is newer than Paul's so it could well be God's latest fad in soteriology. You can't say that Mohamed is wrong because he contradicts Paul, because then you'd have to say that Paul is wrong because he contradicts Ezekiel and Matthew's Jesus and so on into the darkness.

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Skeptic

Yes it does work for me, it took me so long to be able to hear the voice of God and let me tell you, i had been hearing from God all my life i just wasn't listening, when every one was telling me that they had literaly heard from God i thought they were hearing the audible voice of God, i have not met anyone who has heard the audible voice of God and when i hear of someone who says they have I go and ask them to explain to me what and how.

I don't think anyone can tell you or show you how to hear from God or hear his voice.

I do think he is talking to everyone he created, every day, I don't know why some can hear him and some can't, i pray a lot about that and all i keep hearing at this time is you don't have to be special to hear me you just have to be able to hear. i know that the more i put the cares of the world away the more i hear God.

"Hearing the voice of God" is an interesting concept. Since I believe "God" to be a symbolic word people use to express a wide variety of things, mostly abstractions, here's my take on what people means when using that phrase "hearing the voice of God."

 

It's a matter of learning to hear a certain "intuitive" "inner voice" (again using abstract symbols to express that). The "voice of God", is our own voice. It's a matter of taking impressions, "feelings", "leanings", etc derived from a certain collective subconsious pool of thoughts gained through experiences and letting them surface and have a voice, a voice that we "trust", or learn to trust as our part of our own. People call it "intuition", whereas it's really more a collective voice of our own experience "speaking" to us. People will symbolize this as "the voice of God", in that it seems to come from "nowhere" inside us. But it really is coming from us.

 

Additionally they use this term to distinguish it from rational thought, where we take this "impression", this "gut intuition", this "voice", and learn to utilize it without applying direct conscious rational though to dissect it, thus "second guessing ourselves", or "questioning the voice of God". To listen to it, is to act more with a certain "instinct". But again, it's not. Not rationally understood that is. It is rational thought, in that it emerges from a pool of experiences and knowledge all contained in our brains. It's just a matter of learning to "trust" it, or rather trust our abilities to know what "makes sense", what's a reasonable thing to choose, even if we can't necessarily rationally explain it - at the moment.

 

The metaphor I like to use is that of a dance. You feel the movement of your environment and respond to it physically, through a sort of "intuitive" choice in actions. The moment one starts analyzing, "left foot out, right foot back, and left, and left, now forward..." you aren't dancing.

 

God is such a versatile word. :)

Antlerman

please hear me when i make this next statment , i am not trying to be funny or make fun of you or make you mad but you have just nailed the whole hearing Gods voice in the two middle statements of your reply, God is in us, he is the one to put the tree in the Garden that would make us like him, (Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil) pleasant to the eye, good for food, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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Skeptic

Yes it does work for me, it took me so long to be able to hear the voice of God and let me tell you, i had been hearing from God all my life i just wasn't listening, when every one was telling me that they had literaly heard from God i thought they were hearing the audible voice of God, i have not met anyone who has heard the audible voice of God and when i hear of someone who says they have I go and ask them to explain to me what and how.

I don't think anyone can tell you or show you how to hear from God or hear his voice.

I do think he is talking to everyone he created, every day, I don't know why some can hear him and some can't, i pray a lot about that and all i keep hearing at this time is you don't have to be special to hear me you just have to be able to hear. i know that the more i put the cares of the world away the more i hear God.

"Hearing the voice of God" is an interesting concept. Since I believe "God" to be a symbolic word people use to express a wide variety of things, mostly abstractions, here's my take on what people means when using that phrase "hearing the voice of God."

 

It's a matter of learning to hear a certain "intuitive" "inner voice" (again using abstract symbols to express that). The "voice of God", is our own voice. It's a matter of taking impressions, "feelings", "leanings", etc derived from a certain collective subconsious pool of thoughts gained through experiences and letting them surface and have a voice, a voice that we "trust", or learn to trust as our part of our own. People call it "intuition", whereas it's really more a collective voice of our own experience "speaking" to us. People will symbolize this as "the voice of God", in that it seems to come from "nowhere" inside us. But it really is coming from us.

 

Additionally they use this term to distinguish it from rational thought, where we take this "impression", this "gut intuition", this "voice", and learn to utilize it without applying direct conscious rational though to dissect it, thus "second guessing ourselves", or "questioning the voice of God". To listen to it, is to act more with a certain "instinct". But again, it's not. Not rationally understood that is. It is rational thought, in that it emerges from a pool of experiences and knowledge all contained in our brains. It's just a matter of learning to "trust" it, or rather trust our abilities to know what "makes sense", what's a reasonable thing to choose, even if we can't necessarily rationally explain it - at the moment.

 

The metaphor I like to use is that of a dance. You feel the movement of your environment and respond to it physically, through a sort of "intuitive" choice in actions. The moment one starts analyzing, "left foot out, right foot back, and left, and left, now forward..." you aren't dancing.

 

God is such a versatile word. :)

Antlerman

please hear me when i make this next statment , i am not trying to be funny or make fun of you or make you mad but you have just nailed the whole hearing Gods voice in the two middle statements of your reply, God is in us, he is the one to put the tree in the Garden that would make us like him, (Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil) pleasant to the eye, good for food, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

No I don't take this as insulting. In fact I agree. In a particular sense. Of course God is in us. We create him in our image. He comes from us. We take this view of ourselves and embody it symbolically in the word God, give him shape and substance through our expressions like this, and in turn understand something about ourselves through this agency of language we created.

 

It begins with an experience, a sense of the aesthetic, a sense of mystery, or wonder, or awe, and from there we give it a name. God. God is in us. God is us. We are God.

 

Make sense?

 

BTW, yes I know I nailed it on the head. This is what you meant by "hearing the voice of God". It's your voice. You are God.

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Skeptic

Yes it does work for me, it took me so long to be able to hear the voice of God and let me tell you, i had been hearing from God all my life i just wasn't listening, when every one was telling me that they had literaly heard from God i thought they were hearing the audible voice of God, i have not met anyone who has heard the audible voice of God and when i hear of someone who says they have I go and ask them to explain to me what and how.

I don't think anyone can tell you or show you how to hear from God or hear his voice.

I do think he is talking to everyone he created, every day, I don't know why some can hear him and some can't, i pray a lot about that and all i keep hearing at this time is you don't have to be special to hear me you just have to be able to hear. i know that the more i put the cares of the world away the more i hear God.

"Hearing the voice of God" is an interesting concept. Since I believe "God" to be a symbolic word people use to express a wide variety of things, mostly abstractions, here's my take on what people means when using that phrase "hearing the voice of God."

 

It's a matter of learning to hear a certain "intuitive" "inner voice" (again using abstract symbols to express that). The "voice of God", is our own voice. It's a matter of taking impressions, "feelings", "leanings", etc derived from a certain collective subconsious pool of thoughts gained through experiences and letting them surface and have a voice, a voice that we "trust", or learn to trust as our part of our own. People call it "intuition", whereas it's really more a collective voice of our own experience "speaking" to us. People will symbolize this as "the voice of God", in that it seems to come from "nowhere" inside us. But it really is coming from us.

 

Additionally they use this term to distinguish it from rational thought, where we take this "impression", this "gut intuition", this "voice", and learn to utilize it without applying direct conscious rational though to dissect it, thus "second guessing ourselves", or "questioning the voice of God". To listen to it, is to act more with a certain "instinct". But again, it's not. Not rationally understood that is. It is rational thought, in that it emerges from a pool of experiences and knowledge all contained in our brains. It's just a matter of learning to "trust" it, or rather trust our abilities to know what "makes sense", what's a reasonable thing to choose, even if we can't necessarily rationally explain it - at the moment.

 

The metaphor I like to use is that of a dance. You feel the movement of your environment and respond to it physically, through a sort of "intuitive" choice in actions. The moment one starts analyzing, "left foot out, right foot back, and left, and left, now forward..." you aren't dancing.

 

God is such a versatile word. :)

Antlerman

please hear me when i make this next statment , i am not trying to be funny or make fun of you or make you mad but you have just nailed the whole hearing Gods voice in the two middle statements of your reply, God is in us, he is the one to put the tree in the Garden that would make us like him, (Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil) pleasant to the eye, good for food, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

No I don't take this as insulting. In fact I agree. In a particular sense. Of course God is in us. We create him in our image. He comes from us. We take this view of ourselves and embody it symbolically in the word God, give him shape and substance through our expressions like this, and in turn understand something about ourselves through this agency of language we created.

 

It begins with an experience, a sense of the aesthetic, a sense of mystery, or wonder, or awe, and from there we give it a name. God. God is in us. God is us. We are God.

 

Make sense?

 

BTW, yes I know I nailed it on the head. This is what you meant by "hearing the voice of God". It's your voice. You are God.

It does stand to reason doesn't it, back in the 70's i read a book called the sandpiper experiment that has always stuck with me, there is a huge part of our brain that is not even used for anything that can be accounted for, and for God to give us something that is not used completely just does not line up with the word, every thing has a purpose. look at me i started getting high at a very early age of 5 huffing gas, then at 7 paint then at 9 shooting meth, then at 15 LSD, you do the math, i stayed high on something from the age of 5 to 35, every day, i know you guys are going to jump all over this, but you know i really should not even be able to type words or spell them or even talk with any under standing. God gave each one of us a "conscience" , our brain, our reasoning ability, our ability to analize, to decern, even the medical profession uses the term brain dead to unhook people from machines that keep the body alive even when our brain is dead.

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