Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity

[Ouroboros]

You still haven't answered my question - how would you deal with these men?

Put them in prison, because they were/are causing social instability.

 

Why would you send them for eternal punishment in Hell? Or send them to Heaven because they turned Christian in the last seconds of their life?

 

Again, I repeat, that many dictators have killed multiplied millions of people - all to preserve 'the common good' - so by what basis could you disagree with or condemn these men? After all, they thought that what they were doing was right.

Because their "common good" wasn't a common good at all. They used rhetoric to further their own political agenda, rather than working for a greater good of society. It's one thing what someone says, and one thing what someone does.

 

What child abuse are you referring to?

The New Testament recommends using the rod. Don't spare the rod, etc. The Old Testament have a law that unruly and disobedient kids should be stoned to death. And so on.

 

We obtain salvation by (1) ackowledging that we have sinned against a holy God AND we repent of that sin (guilt, remorse, regret, & turning from sin); (2) placing our faith (trust) in Jesus the Messiah, God Incarnate, who died in my place on the cross to pay the debt of my sin - acknowledging that I bring nothing to the table, but I only cry out to God for mercy; (3) God is faithful to His promise, and He grants salvation to any & all who humbly seek pardon from Him; (4) God gives us a new heart, make us a new creation in Christ - this changes our goals, motives, disposition, it makes basic changes in our worldview; (5) God's Holy spirit takes up residence within us to begin the work of conforming us the Christlikeness. This involves changing our character into likeness with His - so that we are characterized by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, forgiveness, mercy, grace, generosity, good works, etc. This is a process of spiritual growth - but there is a definite direction toward becoming more like Christ in His trust of the Father and treatment of mankind.

So how much must a person believe and/or change to go to Heaven? Is there a measurement?

 

Okay, so sin is not only rebellion against God, but also to not believe in Jesus. So it's far more than just believing in God. The problem is, if you don't believe Jesus was God's son, you're doomed.

 

The issue is that God Himself, in the second Person of the Trinity, became Man. Lived a sinless life and suffered & died in our place for our sin - and we receive forgiveness by acknowledging what God has done for us to save us from the consequences of our willful sin. To not believe in Jesus the Messiah as being LORD & Savior - as was declared by God as His plan to redeeem sinners - is a HUGE SLAP IN THE FACE OF GOD. It is to shake our fist in God's face and declare that there can be some other way in which we can achieve salavtion. But there is no other way, no other name by which we can receive God's gracious salvation.

So sin is also slapping God in the face? The concept of "sin" seems to expand rather quickly and contain many simultaneous concepts. It's acts done against God's and our own standards, it's disobedience, it's unbelief, it's slapping God in the face by not accepting his salvation, it's breaking one of the commandments, it's being separated from God, it's ... Gosh... does the list ever end for this "simple" concept?

 

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

So Jesus got authority in Heaven and on Earth? What kind of authority? In heaven he is God, so how can it be given to him, since he is the one giving it? And on Earth, how, what, where? I don't see it. Jesus are not commanding anything here.

 

Oh, so people have to be baptized too to be cleansed, not only believe, act, ask for forgiveness, change, but also be baptized, to get this "free" gift (which is a slap in God's face if you don't accept).

 

Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Luk 24:46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,

Luk 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Repentance of being disobedient to a imaginary being with vague rules. Have you repented yet for killing any philistine? No, wait, that's not a sin. Have you repented yet for raping a woman? Oh, sorry, no, that only requires a fine to the parents and then marrying the victim. Have you repented being disobedient to any other of God's laws? Which ones? Have you thought about which crimes you were committing before becoming a Christian?

 

 

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Sure. No one comes to Odin, except through Thor.

 

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well.

Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

You really think that the Bible verses have some effect? I look at them, and I don't find them compelling at all. It's like if I started to quote Lord of the Rings or Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

 

"Saved", "Sin", "Belief"... all symbols for different meanings. We all have different views on what they really mean. I believe being "saved" is when you realize that religion is not the answer, but to mature and grow up in spirit is to release yourself from the bondage of the religious doctrines.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

"Saved", "Sin", "Belief"... all symbols for different meanings. We all have different views on what they really mean. I believe being "saved" is when you realize that religion is not the answer, but to mature and grow up in spirit is to release yourself from the bondage of the religious doctrines.

 

There's some sort of squishy, slimy toy the kids used to play with. It was in novelty and specialty shops for a while. You would get a grip on it and it would just slip out of your hands. The more you tried to hold on to it, the harder and faster it would fly away from you. One time, when I was in a shop in the "Learning Store" or maybe the PBS store at the mall, I squeezed too hard and it shot half-way across the store and knocked over a display.

 

That's the way it is with these religious interactions. The definitions, conditions, exceptions, nuances and diversions just keep shifting and changing. That's part of the viral nature of the self-contained delusion of an effective religion. If you cannot isolate it, you cannot neutralize it.

 

As far as the "Slap in the face" concept goes: like I've said before, if it turns out I'm wrong and the christian god really does exist, I'll say, "You did a piss poor job of making yourself known and you never showed up when I needed you. What are you so pissed off about?"

 

If he wants to toss me into hell, that's his business.

[Ouroboros]

That's the way it is with these religious interactions. The definitions, conditions, exceptions, nuances and diversions just keep shifting and changing. That's part of the viral nature of the self-contained delusion of an effective religion. If you cannot isolate it, you cannot neutralize it.

I just have to say, that was very well put.

[agnosticator]

There's some sort of squishy, slimy toy the kids used to play with. It was in novelty and specialty shops for a while. You would get a grip on it and it would just slip out of your hands. The more you tried to hold on to it, the harder and faster it would fly away from you. One time, when I was in a shop in the "Learning Store" or maybe the PBS store at the mall, I squeezed too hard and it shot half-way across the store and knocked over a display.

 

That's the way it is with these religious interactions. The definitions, conditions, exceptions, nuances and diversions just keep shifting and changing. That's part of the viral nature of the self-contained delusion of an effective religion. If you cannot isolate it, you cannot neutralize it.

 

Excellent assessment Oddbird! I agree with Hans...

[Dagan]

Christ eating corndogs, is this bullshit still going on?

 

To the original topic, I have decided that any Christian doctrine that requires revisionist history, hiding certain uncomfortable facts, advanced expositions of linguistics, acrobatic feats of contortion and, as Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, looking at things from a "certain point of view" to explain a foundational Christian belief, is likely to be bullshit.

 

If God thinks it's so important, he can get off his fucking cloud and tell us in plain language.

 

Please excuse the profanity. Or fuck off.

 

Have a nice day.

[NotBlinded]

You really think that hearts are only changed within the context of Christianity?

 

If we're speaking of lasting, life-long change for the good - YES.

 

I'm usually not one to spare words but, ray, I was thinking of how I would respond to your questions as I read them and then I came to this and I thought, why bother? The life-long change for the good happened for me after I rejected Christianity. Go figure...

[NotBlinded]

"Saved", "Sin", "Belief"... all symbols for different meanings. We all have different views on what they really mean. I believe being "saved" is when you realize that religion is not the answer, but to mature and grow up in spirit is to release yourself from the bondage of the religious doctrines.

Well said Hans. Ironically, that is the whole purpose of religion. It's supposed to help you grow until you can put away the doctrines. Something went terribly wrong somewhere and religion turned into idolatry in the form of doctrine worship. As Alan Watts said, "I think the bible should be ceremoniously burned every Easter."

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' date='14 August 2009 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1250307409' post='476548']

many dictators have killed multiplied millions of people - all to preserve 'the common good' - so by what basis could you disagree with or condemn these men? After all, they thought that what they were doing was right.

 

Because their "common good" wasn't a common good at all. They used rhetoric to further their own political agenda, rather than working for a greater good of society. It's one thing what someone says, and one thing what someone does.

 

But its only your opinion that they were not accomplishing the "common good" - they and their followers were convinced otherwise. So I ask again, what is your basis for either condemning or even disagreeing with such dictators? Is it just your opinion, along with those who are like-minded with you?

 

The New Testament recommends using the rod. Don't spare the rod, etc.

 

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

 

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

Note that all discipline is for instruction in righteous living, and is designed to be conducted in love by those who love the children and desire for them righteousness, restoration, redemption, etc.

 

The Old Testament have a law that unruly and disobedient kids should be stoned to death.

 

Exo 21:14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

Exo 21:15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exo 21:16 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Exo 21:17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

 

Lev 20:7 Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:8 Keep my statutes and do them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Lev 20:9 For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Lev 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

 

Apparently God considers these matters in a much more serious light than many people do - and it's clearly more than just being unruly and disobedient when we see the context. Is God wrong to have a high standard of conduct for His people?

 

We obtain salvation by (1) ackowledging that we have sinned against a holy God AND we repent of that sin (guilt, remorse, regret, & turning from sin); (2) placing our faith (trust) in Jesus the Messiah, God Incarnate, who died in my place on the cross to pay the debt of my sin - acknowledging that I bring nothing to the table, but I only cry out to God for mercy; (3) God is faithful to His promise, and He grants salvation to any & all who humbly seek pardon from Him; (4) God gives us a new heart, make us a new creation in Christ - this changes our goals, motives, disposition, it makes basic changes in our worldview; (5) God's Holy spirit takes up residence within us to begin the work of conforming us the Christlikeness. This involves changing our character into likeness with His - so that we are characterized by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, forgiveness, mercy, grace, generosity, good works, etc. This is a process of spiritual growth - but there is a definite direction toward becoming more like Christ in His trust of the Father and treatment of mankind.

 

So how much must a person believe and/or change to go to Heaven? Is there a measurement?

 

As we often say - "it's direction, not perfection." Is there consistent evidence of the fruit of the Spirit as a lifestyle? Looks good from our perspective, but only God knows the heart.

[Shyone]

<snip>

Apparently God considers these matters in a much more serious light than many people do - and it's clearly more than just being unruly and disobedient when we see the context. Is God wrong to have a high standard of conduct for His people?

<snip>

That is just fascinating. Perhaps you could find the passages from the Koran or the Vedas to support your position.

 

In the meantime, don't let God babysit your children - if you love them.

[Ouroboros]

But its only your opinion that they were not accomplishing the "common good" - they and their followers were convinced otherwise. So I ask again, what is your basis for either condemning or even disagreeing with such dictators? Is it just your opinion, along with those who are like-minded with you?

Did they succeed? No. Why? Because it didn't work. So they were doing something wrong. In other words, history proves they took an non-working approach to social structure. Look at what benefits everyone, not what benefits the individual in power.

 

You mistakenly think that without God, Bible, and Christianity, automatically the non-believers think that "good" equals what benefits the rulers. That's not how it works. If people get killed in masses on false basis, then it's wrong, because a society where we allow this will not work, it will eventually collapse. So society can only live on if we establish a rational equilibrium of rights and duties. Dictators do not always do that. However, not saying that some might.

 

The overall good is what is good. The sum of all outcomes of all parts is the foundation for what is acceptable and standard. It's natural. It's obvious. And it's common sense.

 

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

And many today consider this to be child abuse and immoral. Are they wrong?

 

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Physcial discipline harms the body temporarily, but have a long term psychological harm. It is immoral and against the law.

 

Note that all discipline is for instruction in righteous living, and is designed to be conducted in love by those who love the children and desire for them righteousness, restoration, redemption, etc.

So hurting someone for the reason of love is okay? Then killing someone for love is also acceptable and moral? Interesting.

 

Then is torture of criminals a justified act as well?

 

Exo 21:14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

Exo 21:15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exo 21:16 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Exo 21:17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Cursing is enough to get killed. Is that a justified penalty? I don't think so. I think that's a sign of a morally corrupt system.

 

Lev 20:7 Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:8 Keep my statutes and do them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Lev 20:9 For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Lev 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

For cursing your father and mother, you should be killed. Isn't that lovely. What a nice moral system.

 

Apparently God considers these matters in a much more serious light than many people do - and it's clearly more than just being unruly and disobedient when we see the context. Is God wrong to have a high standard of conduct for His people?

 

Look in De 21:18-21.

 

So yeah, God has a high standard, you're so absolutely correct. The standard is that he kills everyone for small infractions, and send them to Hell for eternal torture. You find that moral; I don't.

 

If anyone of us today would do what God is supposedly demanding to be law, then we would be crazy, or more accurately, we would be like the countries under Sharia law. It's immoral and cruel.

 

As we often say - "it's direction, not perfection." Is there consistent evidence of the fruit of the Spirit as a lifestyle? Looks good from our perspective, but only God knows the heart.

So it's kind of wishy-washy, since it's just a direction rather than perfection which takes you to heaven. Then perhaps we all go there. Consider this: I have never killed a person. I have never cheated on my wife (because it would hurt her, and I love her, so it would hurt me to see her hurt). I have tried to take care of my family and teach my kids to respect other people and behave according to societies mores. But still... I'm going to Hell because I'm suppsedly a "sinner". A man-made concept to put the feeling of guilt and condemnation on people, for the single purpose to fill up the church seats.

 

It is so obvious to me that the concept of "sin" is a sales-trick. It's an invented "illness" with a imaginary "medicine" to heal it, and the only way to get it, is to sign up for the Club of Delusion.

 

---edit---

 

So now it is your turn. Why is the examples you gave, cruel, murderous dictators wrong in the Christian perspective? What makes it immoral from the view you have? Can you please explain?

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' date='28 August 2009 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1251474380' post='480147']

But its only your opinion that they were not accomplishing the "common good" - they and their followers were convinced otherwise. So I ask again, what is your basis for either condemning or even disagreeing with such dictators? Is it just your opinion?

 

Han >> Did they succeed? No. Why? Because it didn't work. So they were doing something wrong. In other words, history proves they took an non-working approach to social structure. Look at what benefits everyone, not what benefits the individual in power. If people get killed in masses on false basis, then it's wrong, because a society where we allow this will not work, it will eventually collapse. So society can only live on if we establish a rational equilibrium of rights and duties. The overall good is what is good. The sum of all outcomes of all parts is the foundation for what is acceptable and standard. It's natural. It's obvious. And it's common sense.

 

First, let me say that your philosophy is pure "Pragmatism." If it works - do it. That is exactly what drove Hitler & the Nazi's - how to make society work more efficiently - breed better people (Aryans); kill the feeble & infirm & elderly & religious that drain resources and don't work >> and make them the scapegoat for all societal ills!!! That is what drove Genghis Khan - what worked was preserved; and the weak and inefficient were to be eliminated for the good of the Mongol Kingdom. Pragmatism drives Red China today - which they learned from Mao Tse-tung - so they kill prisoners to harvest their healthy organs to sell & transplant into rich customers. Pragmatism drove the Bolsheviks (hey, let's form communal farms to grow our foodstuff). BUt you only know what doesn't work a posteriori.

 

Big time congrats, baby >> You're in good company.

 

In the Biblical worldview; God has established objective morality >> the morality of actions are established a priori by God's laws. The main laws are;

Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.

Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

 

But as a means of holding to these 2 Great Commandments, God has listed a variety of laws that illustrate how to love God & neighbor (and your neighbor includes ethnic groups that we have historically hated - thus the Jew & Good Samaritan). The laws include do not murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, do not covet what belongs ot another, etc.

 

So rather than waiting to see whether or not Hitler's (et al) philosophy worked >> many Christian pastors were condemning Nazi-ism & the insipid socialism that were being promulgated (Dietrich Bonhoffer was martyred by the Nazis). Why? Because the Christians knew that what Hitler (et al) were doing was immoral.

 

And what would I advise re: such men? Execution for heinous & capital crimes.

 

 

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

 

And many today consider this to be child abuse and immoral. Are they wrong?

 

Yes, they are wrong

 

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

Physcial discipline harms the body temporarily, but have a long term psychological harm. It is immoral and against the law. So hurting someone for the reason of love is okay? Then killing someone for love is also acceptable and moral? Then is torture of criminals a justified act as well?

 

Physical discipline done Biblically does not have long-term psychological effects, it immediately teaches the consequences for sinful behavior. It is not immoral, and not against the law for parents (Thankfully). But, do you know this long-term psych harm from personal experience?

 

If anyone of us today would do what God is supposedly demanding to be law, then we would be crazy...

 

Call me CRAZY.

 

Rayskidude >> As we often say - "it's direction, not perfection." Is there consistent evidence of the fruit of the Spirit as a lifestyle? Looks good from our perspective, but only God knows the heart.

 

Han >> So it's kind of wishy-washy, since it's just a direction rather than perfection which takes you to heaven. Then perhaps we all go there. Consider this: I have never killed a person. I have never cheated on my wife (because it would hurt her, and I love her, so it would hurt me to see her hurt). I have tried to take care of my family and teach my kids to respect other people and behave according to societies mores. But still... I'm going to Hell because I'm suppsedly a "sinner". A man-made concept to put the feeling of guilt and condemnation on people, for the single purpose to fill up the church seats.

 

Have you ever lusted after another woman? Have you ever been angry without sufficient cause? Have you ever coveted in your heart anything that belonged to another? Have you ever had a conflict or quarrel with another person? Did you ever cheat in any way in school? Have you ever said a caustic, derogatory comment - or just though it? What would you do - if no one was watching and you knew you wouldn't get caught?

 

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mat 5:34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

Mat 5:35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.

Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'

Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

Mat 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Mat 5:47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

[Deva]

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

 

The only question is Ray, do YOU live by your own standards (which you have listed). I dislike your holier than thou attitude.

 

I also disagree that Hitler and Co. were driven by pragmatism. It obviously didn't work, did it? After all, was it practical to fight a war with the Russians and the U.S. and England while at the same time as having to build all these concentration camps? Is that pragmatism?

[Ouroboros]

First, let me say that your philosophy is pure "Pragmatism." If it works - do it. That is exactly what drove Hitler & the Nazi's - how to make society work more efficiently - breed better people (Aryans); kill the feeble & infirm & elderly & religious that drain resources and don't work >> and make them the scapegoat for all societal ills!!! That is what drove Genghis Khan - what worked was preserved; and the weak and inefficient were to be eliminated for the good of the Mongol Kingdom. Pragmatism drives Red China today - which they learned from Mao Tse-tung - so they kill prisoners to harvest their healthy organs to sell & transplant into rich customers. Pragmatism drove the Bolsheviks (hey, let's form communal farms to grow our foodstuff). BUt you only know what doesn't work a posteriori.

But, but... IT DIDN'T WORK!!! The LOST! The social experiment they conducted didn't work, and in every society you will have some people who can see through the crazy policies and deduce they won't work, but the egomaniacal leaders who won't listen they don't care, and run their own show. So no, it didn't work. And Hitler did NOT do his war because it was pragmatic, he did it because it was his ideology. He was driven to create his own Heaven. His own dream. Not what was practical. A war is NOT practical. Genocide is NOT practical. It takes effort, money, time, and then in the end, the result is just dead bodies. He died, killed himself. Is that a social success? That's weird. I thought the ones who quit are the ones who do NOT win.

 

We kill people in America today, because of social protection. That's why we do it. That's why we execute people. Because they a deviant to the mores, laws, and regulations. Not because they were disobedient to God or Jesus. Why? Why do we punish people for breaking the law? Why not punish them for being atheists or non-Christians instead?

 

Now the question is back at YOU. The examples you gave, why are they immoral? Why were these leaders immoral according to the Christian perspective?

 

Big time congrats, baby >> You're in good company.

Well so are you, since the Catholic Church doesn't provide any better track record. Neither does the Jewish religion in the Old Testament. Running around and killing people in God's name, that's moral? Israel commited genocide in the OT as well. And you think that is good?

 

In the Biblical worldview; God has established objective morality >> the morality of actions are established a priori by God's laws. The main laws are;

Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.

Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

So executing serial killers is then wrong?

 

Btw, the argument there doesn't include God, so why is that rule (which you can find in other philosophical writings) necessarily tied to God? I don't see God in that quote. It only refers to the OT law.

 

And do you know that there are law books, older than the Torah, which have similar laws? Given by other gods? Then which god is the real god, if they all agree to the same thing as the atheists do? I believe in treating my neighbor good also, but that's because I understand the fabric of social order. I understand why. I don't do it just because I'm commanded by Jesus or God, but I do it because it makes sense.

 

You have two kids on the playground. One takes a toy from the other. The mom shouts, "give it back Tom." And Tom gives it back. But as soon as mom turn her head he takes it again. He only obeys because it is commanded.

 

Two other kids on the playground. Neither of them takes any toys, because they know how to ask for them, and know that if they ask and share, they can play peacefully together. They are truly moral, because they know the reasons to why it is necessary, and don't just obey laws they can't understand.

 

Religion creates people of the first kind.

 

But as a means of holding to these 2 Great Commandments, God has listed a variety of laws that illustrate how to love God & neighbor (and your neighbor includes ethnic groups that we have historically hated - thus the Jew & Good Samaritan). The laws include do not murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, do not covet what belongs ot another, etc.

The same laws can be found in other cultures, other religions, other times, other societies, because some laws make sense to create a stable society, and only people smart enough can understand this and create these laws. But common people are usually too stupid to understand the underlying reasons, so they have to have a myth to keep the morals alive, which is religion. Religion is the shortcut to instill the morals in people, because the common man is just too stupid.

 

So rather than waiting to see whether or not Hitler's (et al) philosophy worked >> many Christian pastors were condemning Nazi-ism & the insipid socialism that were being promulgated (Dietrich Bonhoffer was martyred by the Nazis). Why? Because the Christians knew that what Hitler (et al) were doing was immoral.

Eh. Okay. Hitler worked with the Catholic Church, they didn't do anything about it, and they did not excommunicate him.

 

The real reason why the west world stood up against Hitler was that he was a threat to the social, economical, and political order. Religion wasn't really part of it.

 

And what would I advise re: such men? Execution for heinous & capital crimes.

Sure. Agree.

 

Do you see the terms you are using? "Heinous and Captial Crimes" Where does it say that in the Bible? You are basically referring back to social order and justice.

 

 

And many today consider this to be child abuse and immoral. Are they wrong?

 

Yes, they are wrong

Ooookay. We have a person here who thinks that smacking their kid around is good. Well, good for you, child abuser. You just lost 10 points on my scale.

 

Physical discipline done Biblically does not have long-term psychological effects, it immediately teaches the consequences for sinful behavior. It is not immoral, and not against the law for parents (Thankfully). But, do you know this long-term psych harm from personal experience?

Scientific studies. My parents never hurt me. They were very loving and caring people, and they never laid a hand in anger on me. The I went to this crazy church and learned that I was supposed to hit my kids to teach them correct behavior, and it did not turn out well. But we correct ourselves when we realized this was wrong.

 

Studies show that lower class tend to correct their children with physical contact, while upper class tend to correct their children through discussion and removing privileges.

 

I saw the title of some science article once that claimed evidence that sparing the rod does not spoiling the child. But it's rather when you don't punish at all that spoils the child. There are many other ways of correcting a child besides using violence. I raised my children by non-violent sanctions for inappropriate behavior.

 

I assume you smack your kid around every time he's disobedient. Well, good for you, you big and strong man who want to show the kids who is boss. But just remember, one day, children services will get to know about it, and you'll lose your kids.

[Ouroboros]

If anyone of us today would do what God is supposedly demanding to be law, then we would be crazy...

 

Call me CRAZY.

Yes. Then you are crazy. Have you even read the OT law? That's the law you want.

 

You seriously want a theocracy in this country? Which version of Christians should run the country? Which denomination?

 

Have you ever lusted after another woman? Have you ever been angry without sufficient cause? Have you ever coveted in your heart anything that belonged to another? Have you ever had a conflict or quarrel with another person? Did you ever cheat in any way in school? Have you ever said a caustic, derogatory comment - or just though it? What would you do - if no one was watching and you knew you wouldn't get caught?

Sure. I have also thought about doing good to people, wanting world peace, wanting the hungry to be fed, the sick to be healed, and I have many times thought about making sure everyone had a good life.

 

(bible verses)

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

Well, "sinner" is a word defined by your religion, and you can keep it. Sure, I'm a sinner according to your principles. But I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, or immoral at all, because your "moral" is flawed.

 

Why is it flawed? Because no one can live up to it. So what use is it?

 

Lets invent a new super-strict moral, and invent a new word for when you can fulfill it: You have to stand on one foot and sing Twinkle Little Star, one million times, without sleeping or eating. If you don't do that, then you are a Crooxer. To Croox is the worst thing you can do, because if you Croox you will never see Never-Never Land after you die. But you can be saved from the punishment of going to the Dark Place if you just believe in our savior, Bob, who paid the Master using a trillion plastic cards, and he suffered intense tickling for a whole two days. So if you believe in Bob, then it doesn't matter if you Crooxer anymore.

 

Hmm... Is sinning is okay if you believe in Jesus?

[Ouroboros]

I also disagree that Hitler and Co. were driven by pragmatism. It obviously didn't work, did it? After all, was it practical to fight a war with the Russians and the U.S. and England while at the same time as having to build all these concentration camps? Is that pragmatism?

Exactly. It is not.

 

What they committed was a "sin" against social order and decency. Decency is that there must exist a certain level of fairness in society, and rational thought supporting policies. But these dictators were in the politics to work their own agenda, not the common good of the people. It's not common good to kill 6 million citizens. I'm sorry, but I can't see how a Christian believes that is a common good of any kind.

[Deva]

It is really outrageous to claim that Hitler and the Nazis were pragmatists. They were NOT interested in the common good of their society. Hitler was only interested in satisfying his insane hatred of the Jews at tremendous cost to the world and the German people.

[Shyone]

It is really outrageous to claim that Hitler and the Nazis were pragmatists. They were NOT interested in the common good of their society. Hitler was only interested in satisfying his insane hatred of the Jews at tremendous cost to the world and the German people.

They committed Genocide - which is a crime best known through the Old Testament.

 

I'd be willing to bet that this Christian is wishing there was no Old Testament - it gets in the way of his touchy feely religion - but it is unfortunately true that the New depends on the Old, and Jesus didn't change one fucking Jot or one fucking Tiddle.

 

And Jesus didn't eat pork.

[Deva]

Ray said:

 

rather than waiting to see whether or not Hitler's (et al) philosophyworked >> many Christian pastors were condemning Nazi-ism &the insipid socialism that were being promulgated (Dietrich Bonhofferwas martyred by the Nazis). Why? Because the Christians knew that whatHitler (et al) were doing was immoral.

 

Many Christian pastors? Hell no, I think the record shows otherwise. The entire Lutheran Church caved, the pope caved, a bunch of cowards caved into Hitler. You have historical evidence to the contrary, PRODUCE IT!

 

I say cowards - I might amend that - they just didn't want to die for the Christian standards of morality.

 

Yes, Bonhoffer was an exception, there were some who protested and were killed, but not MANY.

[NotBlinded]

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

 

The only question is Ray, do YOU live by your own standards (which you have listed). I dislike your holier than thou attitude.

You're not alone Deva. The egoism of fundamentalists makes me sick even though many times they are not aware of it themselves. Ignorant egoism? That sounds about right.

[dagnarus]

Ray said:

 

rather than waiting to see whether or not Hitler's (et al) philosophyworked >> many Christian pastors were condemning Nazi-ism &the insipid socialism that were being promulgated (Dietrich Bonhofferwas martyred by the Nazis). Why? Because the Christians knew that whatHitler (et al) were doing was immoral.

 

Many Christian pastors? Hell no, I think the record shows otherwise. The entire Lutheran Church caved, the pope caved, a bunch of cowards caved into Hitler. You have historical evidence to the contrary, PRODUCE IT!

 

I say cowards - I might amend that - they just didn't want to die for the Christian standards of morality.

 

Yes, Bonhoffer was an exception, there were some who protested and were killed, but not MANY.

 

Not to mention the fact that the Nazi's were using Martin Luther's "The Jews and their Lies" to promote their anti-semitic views. Amongst other colorful things "We are at fault in not slaying them".

[agnosticator]

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

 

What kind of moral standard is this? Emotion, insults, and name calling are deserving of hellfire...those of old had it right: ACTIONS should be judged in the here-and-now...NOT emotion and words alone.

 

 

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

Desires are to be counted as actions that have taken place! Sexual thought crimes...hmmm.

 

 

Mat 5:34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

Mat 5:35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.

 

Nor an oath in court with your hand on the bible....

 

 

Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'

Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

Mat 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

 

Oh how many christians want to be masochistic like this? What kind of society would this foster? Let's invite all the robbers into our homes and offer ourselves to all sadists.

 

 

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,...

 

Actually, Confucius said it best: Repay hatred with justice, and kindness with kindness.

We can be benevolent towards an enemy, but not love them.

 

 

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

 

These standards are not worth living by, or up to. "Sin" is a religious term; not a moral term. No religion, no "sin".

[centauri]

In the Biblical worldview; God has established objective morality >> the morality of actions are established a priori by God's laws. The main laws are;

Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.

Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

However, the objective morality is subjective and changed with the introduction of a replacement theology called Christianity.

The law was deemed obsolete by Paul.

If loving God was taken seriously, the entire law would be obeyed and not cherry-picked as Christianity does with it.

 

So rather than waiting to see whether or not Hitler's (et al) philosophy worked >> many Christian pastors were condemning Nazi-ism & the insipid socialism that were being promulgated (Dietrich Bonhoffer was martyred by the Nazis). Why? Because the Christians knew that what Hitler (et al) were doing was immoral.

The early Christians were communists, which involves socialism as a principle.

If Hitler's attitude toward Jews was immoral then Martin Luther's was as well.

 

...Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

That's not the standard God held people to, nor is it the standard Jesus kept.

Jesus violated the law by undermining part of it and disobeyed God by adding parts to it.

There is no requirement to be perfect as the law itself provides regulations on how to atone for transgressions.

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' date='29 August 2009 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1251588383' post='480735']

Can anybody honestly say that they're living up to this standard? If not, then we are sinners by choice.

 

The only question is Ray, do YOU live by your own standards (which you have listed). I dislike your holier than thou attitude.

 

I most certainly do not live up to Biblical standards of thought, word, or actions. I don't know that I have ever claimed to do anything beyond making a 'good faith effort' to follow Scripture, but I candidly admit that the moral standards in the Bible are beyond my abilities. I simply take the example of the tax-collector in the synagogue - "God, be merciful to me - the sinner."

 

Luk 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:

Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

God's mercy is the only hope that any one of us can depend on for our salvation.

 

I also disagree that Hitler and Co. were driven by pragmatism. It obviously didn't work, did it? After all, was it practical to fight a war with the Russians and the U.S. and England while at the same time as having to build all these concentration camps? Is that pragmatism?

 

They were, in fact, driven by pragmatism - but they were wrong about what 'works.' Don't you think they were surprised when the whole thing fell down around them? They were convinced their ideas and implementation would achieve great things - but anything contrary to Scripture is doomed to fail, despite temporary successes.

[Deva]

I most certainly do not live up to Biblical standards of thought, word, or actions. I don't know that I have ever claimed to do anything beyond making a 'good faith effort' to follow Scripture, but I candidly admit that the moral standards in the Bible are beyond my abilities. I simply take the example of the tax-collector in the synagogue - "God, be merciful to me - the sinner."

 

Thank you for your honest answer Ray. Its just that sometimes you come off differently, maybe because the internet is a hard way to communicate.

 

I must say that they way you continually quote scriptures at us makes me believe you can't think much for yourself.

 

God's mercy is the only hope that any one of us can depend on for our salvation.

 

I don't believe that we need to be saved from "sin".

 

They were, in fact, driven by pragmatism - but they were wrong about what 'works.' Don't you think they were surprised when the whole thing fell down around them? They were convinced their ideas and implementation would achieve great things - but anything contrary to Scripture is doomed to fail, despite temporary successes.

 

There is no question that Hitler and the Nazis thought they were doing the "right thing" according to their own twisted views. I still would not call it "pragmatism". I would rather say the Nazi's applied an efficiency not previously seen in mass killing.

 

I say hatred and actions that destroy other people are bound to fail in the long run, because I hold a non-dualistic view of the world. You hurt others, you are hurting yourself. It comes back on you eventually.

[rayskidude]

But, but... IT DIDN'T WORK!!! The LOST! The social experiment they conducted didn't work, and in every society you will have some people who can see through the crazy policies and deduce they won't work, but the egomaniacal leaders who won't listen they don't care, and run their own show. So no, it didn't work. And Hitler did NOT do his war because it was pragmatic, he did it because it was his ideology. He was driven to create his own Heaven. His own dream. Not what was practical. A war is NOT practical. Genocide is NOT practical. It takes effort, money, time, and then in the end, the result is just dead bodies. He died, killed himself. Is that a social success?

 

Please, go back to my post, I said that you cannot determine the success of worldly leaqders until after the fact; a posteriori. And so, YES, they were pragmatic. They thought their ideology would work and succeed - and they were stunned that they failed, which drove Hitler to despair and so he killed himself.

 

So executing serial killers is then wrong?

 

How did you draw that conclusion to ask this question? Loving God and neighbor includes the execution of those people who are evil & depraved to the point of expressing their hatred of God & Man by commiting capital crimes.

 

Religion creates people of the first kind.

 

A false religion of legalism might, but that would not be Christianity.

Luk 14:10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you.

Luk 14:11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Luk 14:12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid.

Luk 14:13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Luk 14:14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

 

But common people are usually too stupid to understand the underlying reasons, so they have to have a myth to keep the morals alive, which is religion. Religion is the shortcut to instill the morals in people, because the common man is just too stupid.

 

I assume you do not consider yourself to be part of the 'common people.' How did you become uncommon?

 

Ooookay. We have a person here who thinks that smacking their kid around is good. Well, good for you, child abuser. You just lost 10 points on my scale.

 

How do you jump to such conclusions? Biblical punishment is not 'smacking your kid around.' My children, who are all grown - are all doing well in their spiritual lives, marriages, work environments, etc. Biblical discipline is not driven by anger - it's driven by love and seeks to instill in people a healthy fear of sinful actions and their consequences.

 

And I agree that there are various means of punishment - both corporal and with-holding various priveleges. Parents are to use wisdom in determining which form of punishment would be both appropriate and effective to teach the lesson required.

 

Studies show that lower class tend to correct their children with physical contact, while upper class tend to correct their children through discussion and removing privileges.

 

I assume you consider yourself as part of the 'upper class.' Was this always the case, or did you work your way up? If you worked your way up, how so?