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Goodbye Jesus

Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity


Reverend AtheiStar

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I'm so frustrated to be in this world with these people. I am so sick of these people who always look outward at everyone else. I'm tired of compromising my integrity so as not to feel totally alone. I am tired of broad-brush judgemental jerks, and I am tired of careless, free-for-all behavior.

 

I'm ranting.

 

 

Good rant!

 

I think I understand your frustration with those who easily give in and take the low road in order to remain in the company of backbiters, liars, the two-faced, and the hypocrites. I'm not as sensitive as you, and maybe you have more integrity than me. But maybe you are being too harsh and judgmental towards yourself. I don't know if you pursue perfection, but I get the impression your fear of punishment may be driving you in that direction. Or maybe I'm way off...

 

I have learned one think over the years: good friends are hard to find, so I don't worry about the numbers, but go for quality people with flaws I can handle. Thanks for sharing your rant. It made me think.

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Believe it or not - Christianity is not simply a black & white religion re: conduct. The Scripture teaches that some stronger Christians can eat whatever they want, drink EtOH in moderation, consider all days the same, etc. >> while other 'weaker' Christians do not recognize that all things are from God and are therefore clean. So there is Chritian liberty re: some practices.

 

Where does it teach this? I'm interested in seeing these scriptures.

 

Phanta

 

In Romans 14:1-23

 

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

 

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

 

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

 

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

 

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

 

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

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Where does it teach this? I'm interested in seeing these scriptures.Phanta

 

First - my thnx to agnosticator for pointing you to Rom 14:1-23 >> excellent text on both Christian liberty and adjusting our 'free' conduct so as not to offend a weaker brother.

 

But re: Christian liberty I would also point out Colossians 2:16-23;

 

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations--

Col 2:21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"

Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings?

Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

 

And I would further refer to I Timothy 4:1-7

 

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

1Ti 4:3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

1Ti 4:5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

1Ti 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;

 

Note that in both these passages - false teachers are the ones who are forbidding the enjoyment of things which God has designed and given to us - for our pleasure and His glory. God glories in our joy - God has no interest in any meaningless or arbitrary suffering.

 

And as Paul teaces in Colossians - there is an appearance of wisdom on this man-made religion of self-denial, asceticism, and severity >> but there is no real change of our character into Christ-likeness by these legalistic means. ANd as he says in Timothy >> everything created by God is good and is cleansed and made holy thru prayers of thanksgiving.

 

Teaching to the contrary is demonic and involves silly myths. Enjoy all that God has given us to enjoy - in the way that He has given it to us all. This is encouraged. But if your conscience bothers you - don't do it, do not offend your conscience. But if you do not see a prohibition in Scripture for marriage/food/days/drink/whatever >> then thru prayer and Bible study, ask God to cause you to grow spiritually, so that you may freely enjoy all that He has given. And so train yourself for true godliness.

 

This is mature Christian living - so says Rom 14, Col 2, and I Tim 4. Jesus also cleansed all foods, and encouraged Biblical marriage.

I hope this helps to clear up some misconceptions.

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'rayskidude' date='18 September 2009 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1253316175' post='486462']

...under duress or in a position where we could profit without 'getting caught', I would not trust human conscience alone.

 

You have a very low view of us non-Christians, don't you? That we would only act with integrity out of fear of not getting caught. I can tell you that is not my motivation.

 

My comments are not restricted to non-Christians. Christians are just as tempted to commit sin, act selfishly, etc. I simply stated that morals must go beyond human reason, logic, rationality, etc. because of our inherent sin nature. So, I would trust no one's conscience ALONE (exclusively, apart from outside accountability) and certainly not without instruction from God's word about right vs wrong.

 

I believe we all have a conscience, and most function well most of the time - but again, under conditions of duress or in a position to profit (in any number of ways) where there is no accountability outside of ourselves, I wouldn't trust anyone's conscience as the single sufficient means for doing the right thing. And I do believe that knowing that a course of action/thought/word/attitude would grieve and disappoint our heavenly Father, and would offend His holy character & standards, this would add sufficient strength to fully resist the temptation.

 

Do you not think that there is ample evidence from human history to substantiate this position?

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And I do believe that knowing that a course of action/thought/word/attitude would grieve and disappoint our heavenly Father, and would offend His holy character & standards, this would add sufficient strength to fully resist the temptation.

 

Do you not think that there is ample evidence from human history to substantiate this position?

Is this a joke? People with the "realization" that bad actions would offend "our heavenly Father" would have "sufficient strength to fully resist the temptation"?

 

That is laughable! Absolutely ridiculous!

 

Holy smoke, don't you read the papers? Have you no knowledge of catholic priests, the laughingstock of humanity? I am having a problem even thinking of an evangelist that hasn't screwed up in one major way or another. AND these are the ICONS of what you claim should be representatives of Christianity. And you think the Lay people are better than atheists?

 

You have GOT to take off those rose colored glasses or have your eyes (and the rest of your head) examined.

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It all depends on how and who define what "consistent with Christian belief or religious conduct" is. The no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't work.

 

Barna asked about church attendance, Bible reading, prayer, seeking God for guidance on decisions, $$ giving, involvement in ministry works, etc. So when people don't conduct themsleves as Bible believers - then it's farily easy to assess that they're not really Christians.

 

Where does it say that in the Bible? When did God reveal that exception to moral code to you?

 

1Sa 21:10 And David rose and fled that day from Saul and went to Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:11 And the servants of Achish said to him, "Is not this David the king of the land? Did they not sing to one another of him in dances, 'Saul has struck down his thousands, and David his ten thousands'?"

1Sa 21:12 And David took these words to heart and was much afraid of Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:13 So he changed his behavior before them and pretended to be insane in their hands and made marks on the doors of the gate and let his spittle run down his beard.

1Sa 21:14 Then Achish said to his servants, "Behold, you see the man is mad. Why then have you brought him to me?

1Sa 21:15 Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to behave as a madman in my presence? Shall this fellow come into my house?"

 

Well, if it's not black and white, then you must agree that reason, logic, common sense, etc, are the only reasonable ways of knowing if something is from God or not?

 

Please see my post above on Christian liberty. God provides commands and guidance in His word - then we apply ourselves to act with Biblical wisdom in the variety of situations that we find ourselves in.

 

I would do it because I'm a good person without God, but the person above would only know what to do and how to do good if God command them to. So who has a pure heart, and who has to be commanded to do good?

 

Who has to be commanded to do right? Generally, Christians want to please God and others - but may lack the wisdom re: the best course of action. But sometimes, under duress, or strong temptations, or strong testing - there may be an inclination to succumb. Under these conditions, the commands of God (but also the indwelling Spirit of God) provide the strength to resist temptation.

 

If God tells a person to kill another human being, just like Joshua, Moses, and many more in the old testament, how do you know it was God then, but not God now if he tells Bob across the street to do the same thing? If God told the president to invade a country, would it be right? How would you know if it was right or not?

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. The men you mentioned were recognized as prophets of God; and there are no Apostles or prophets today. God has provided everything we need for life and godliness thru Jesus Christ, the Bible, the indwelling Spirit, and our brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.

Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

Note - the foundation & cornerstone are laid down just once - and that happened about 2,000 years ago.

 

2Pe 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

2Pe 1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

2Pe 1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

 

After all, you want to go Heaven, isn't it so? It's basic self-preservation, right?

 

I also want to eat, drink, sleep, have realtionships, work, serve, etc. Does that make me selfish? Can I not do these things for the glory of God and the benefit of others? And if I desire to have eternal life - does that shut somebody else out?

 

But isn't it true that I have eternal life - and I desire that others would have it, too?

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But isn't it true that I have eternal life - and I desire that others would have it, too?

 

No. You'll die just like the rest of us.

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Within moments, I confessed and apologized. I was told it was "OK", that she had done the same. But I knew better, and have not "peeked" since.

 

I attempted to repent of things that no one would ever possibly know; I hated being told the harm I had done didn't matter AT ALL when I knew that was not true. I hold myself accountable to myself. I hold myself accountable to other people (ACoA group, carefully selected nonChristian friends, certified nonChristian counselor) who strive for honesty and integrity for when I fail on my own. I strive to be aware of my transgressions, and then to face them and to change the behavior. I have always been terrified of punishment, but understand that certain consequences drive me to growth and increased honesty and integrity, help hold me accountable. And so I accept them.

 

I always hated it when someone told me that what I had done wrong was "ok".

 

But hear this: for ME, that is, for someone with my level of sensitivity and disposition, the language used in the gospel is heavy-handed. Rather than driving me to be a better person, it drives me to want to slash my wrists. Do you get that? I don't lack whatever vacancy of self-accountability drives some people to Jesus. One of the biggest reasons I hate Christianity is because it is too heavy-handed FOR ME and yet it is touted by followers as the answer FOR ME and then feeds into the anxiety I have (partially disposition and partially the result of emotional abuse as a child) and makes me very nearly non-functional. In light of this, what, Ray, does Christianity offer me?

 

Until I found people I could hold myself accountable, I sturggled. And then it wasn't Jesus, and it wasn't Christians--those finger-pointing holier-than-thou hypocrates. I'm so frustrated to be in this world with these people. I am so sick of these people who always look outward at everyone else. I'm tired of compromising my integrity so as not to feel totally alone. I am tired of broad-brush judgemental jerks, and I am tired of careless, free-for-all behavior.

 

I'm ranting.

 

Let me start by saying that you certainly have a sensitive conscience - and more sensitive than most. And from what I can glean - seems as though you've got high standards for your conduct and that of others. There is a cliche' that I believe to be true - your greatest strength is also you're greatest weakness. Ex. - a person of strong convictions who will not waver from a position (commendable) can also be very stubborn - even when proven to be wrong (definite weakness).

 

Just from what I've read here - and this is an opinion based on limited data, I realize - people with a very sensitive conscience and high standards can be perfectionists. This is not healthy for them, or others around them. But these characteristics also make you more aware of personal flaws in yourself and others - making you more cognizant of the need for forgiveness & reconciliation (which is commendable).

 

What does the Gospel hold for you? Jesus said >>

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

 

Do we sometimes fear that we may be separated from God's love?

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Do we think that our sins are too many, too severe, too damaging?

Rom 5:20 ... but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Do we think that we're good & righteous?

Luk 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:

Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

Bottom line: God is holy, we are not. Jesus died & rose to take that penalty we deserved, and by simple faith in Him, we can appropriate that for ourselves >> resulting in a personal relationship with God, forgiveness of sins, being reconciled to God & others, receiving eternal life >> secure in the knowledge that God is our heavenly Father, who is committed to our welfare for all eternity.

 

Where is the heavy-handedness you felt?

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Barna asked about church attendance, Bible reading, prayer, seeking God for guidance on decisions, $$ giving, involvement in ministry works, etc. So when people don't conduct themsleves as Bible believers - then it's farily easy to assess that they're not really Christians.

 

So your only a Christian if you do Christian works. It's not enough just to believe in Christ. Very well then.

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It all depends on how and who define what "consistent with Christian belief or religious conduct" is. The no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't work.

 

Barna asked about church attendance, Bible reading, prayer, seeking God for guidance on decisions, $$ giving, involvement in ministry works, etc. So when people don't conduct themsleves as Bible believers - then it's farily easy to assess that they're not really Christians.

Hmm... okay. So these are the signs of the true Christian? These are the things I used to do as a Christian, so it must mean I was a true Christian. It's good to know.

 

Anyway, the original statement by me was, "America is #5 of the top Christianized countries in the world, and yet have more crime, more prisoners than any other country, and do less for the poor, sick, and weak."

 

8% of American's are really, really True Christians, while 70-80% more are just half-baked Christians.

 

If we compare that to the rest of the world when most countries have less than 70% of half-baked Christians. Do you believe they also have 8% Christians or more? Or is it more likely they have even less? I think it still stands that America is more influenced by Christianity than most any other country.

 

So my argument is still, America is an example of a country where Christianity has a much larger influence than any other country, and it does not show any better attitude towards the poor or sick.

 

Sweden, Germany, France, etc, all have much, much lower number of confessing Christians, and most likely much less True Christians, and yet they have social welfare and care for the sick on a state level.

 

Can you mention one country where they are really caring for the sick, poor, and helpless on a state level, and they do so because it is a Christian country?

 

I know some Churches do reach out, but coming from an organization that did so myself, I can see how it's part of the plan of indoctrinating people with the Gospel and convert them, so the "help" tends to (most of the time, but not necessarily always) with a hidden agenda.

 

But I also know agnostics and atheists in Sweden (relatives to my wife) who were giving time and money to help poor, sick, and homeless. How can that be? They're supposed to be evil and selfish, but they're not.

 

Where does it say that in the Bible? When did God reveal that exception to moral code to you?

 

1Sa 21:10 And David rose and fled that day from Saul and went to Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:11 And the servants of Achish said to him, "Is not this David the king of the land? Did they not sing to one another of him in dances, 'Saul has struck down his thousands, and David his ten thousands'?"

1Sa 21:12 And David took these words to heart and was much afraid of Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:13 So he changed his behavior before them and pretended to be insane in their hands and made marks on the doors of the gate and let his spittle run down his beard.

1Sa 21:14 Then Achish said to his servants, "Behold, you see the man is mad. Why then have you brought him to me?

1Sa 21:15 Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to behave as a madman in my presence? Shall this fellow come into my house?"

So that's the revelation from your God that there's exception to the moral code of lying? David's actions is your confirmation to escape God's 10 commandments? It doesn't really work, I'm afraid. Would Salomon's harem justify you to have many wives too? Sounds like you're fishing for Bible verses to justify your immorality, but only when it fits you. That's why Christianity is a broken moral system.

 

Well, if it's not black and white, then you must agree that reason, logic, common sense, etc, are the only reasonable ways of knowing if something is from God or not?

 

Please see my post above on Christian liberty. God provides commands and guidance in His word - then we apply ourselves to act with Biblical wisdom in the variety of situations that we find ourselves in.

So you're okay with killing in the name of God, genocide, even killing babies, have a harem, lying, etc. Perhaps there's a verse about stealing you can use when you want something from your neighbor. But of course you still love him, and this makes it right to steal if the Bible gives you an example of someone doing it in there. What about the prophet who left his wife and family to live with a harlot? That's good too? Why not? Why one thing but not the other?

 

I would do it because I'm a good person without God, but the person above would only know what to do and how to do good if God command them to. So who has a pure heart, and who has to be commanded to do good?

 

Who has to be commanded to do right? Generally, Christians want to please God and others - but may lack the wisdom re: the best course of action. But sometimes, under duress, or strong temptations, or strong testing - there may be an inclination to succumb. Under these conditions, the commands of God (but also the indwelling Spirit of God) provide the strength to resist temptation.

Well, obviously, based on your argument above, it's okay to lie and murder, since some holy people did so in the Bible. So if the pressure comes on, then you have a perfect excuse and still maintain your dignity as holy person. Isn't that neat? Do whatever you want, and feel good about it. It is corrupt.

 

If God tells a person to kill another human being, just like Joshua, Moses, and many more in the old testament, how do you know it was God then, but not God now if he tells Bob across the street to do the same thing? If God told the president to invade a country, would it be right? How would you know if it was right or not?

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. The men you mentioned were recognized as prophets of God; and there are no Apostles or prophets today. God has provided everything we need for life and godliness thru Jesus Christ, the Bible, the indwelling Spirit, and our brothers & sisters in Christ.

So if Billy Graham would kill someone and said, "God told me to," then it is okay? It's morally right if a so called holy person does it, but not if an unholy does it? Righteous people have the right to sin, but people who are not righteous does not have the right to sin? Is that how it goes? A "get out of jail for free" card because you have a connection to God. I think that is immoral and unjust.

 

 

(cont)

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After all, you want to go Heaven, isn't it so? It's basic self-preservation, right?

 

I also want to eat, drink, sleep, have realtionships, work, serve, etc. Does that make me selfish? Can I not do these things for the glory of God and the benefit of others? And if I desire to have eternal life - does that shut somebody else out?

Of course it doesn't shut someone out, but I believe the basic drive and desire you have to be a Christian is to preserve your ego, not because you love God. Loving God is more of the "excuse" you give to make it sound righteous, but the real reason is that you're afraid to die.

 

But isn't it true that I have eternal life - and I desire that others would have it, too?

Unfortunately, I don't think you have an eternal life, but you will die just as me. Disappear and be gone. Sad, but that's what I believe.

 

I think the desire you have for other people to join your religion is based on the fear of being wrong. The more people you can convert, the more you can feel secure about your belief.

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Where does it say that in the Bible? When did God reveal that exception to moral code to you?

 

1Sa 21:10 And David rose and fled that day from Saul and went to Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:11 And the servants of Achish said to him, "Is not this David the king of the land? Did they not sing to one another of him in dances, 'Saul has struck down his thousands, and David his ten thousands'?"

1Sa 21:12 And David took these words to heart and was much afraid of Achish the king of Gath.

1Sa 21:13 So he changed his behavior before them and pretended to be insane in their hands and made marks on the doors of the gate and let his spittle run down his beard.

1Sa 21:14 Then Achish said to his servants, "Behold, you see the man is mad. Why then have you brought him to me?

1Sa 21:15 Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to behave as a madman in my presence? Shall this fellow come into my house?"

Is that how it works? Find a verse where someone "important" did something contravening a commandment or law and use that as your example?

 

Hey, how about this?

 

Gen. 19:20-26

30. And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him. For he feared to dwell in Zoar. And he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31. And the first-born said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.

32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33. And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father. And he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also. And go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35. And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose, and lay with him. And he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

 

The ends justify the means? And so, "It's all relative." Not for me. I have better standards, and so do my children.

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My comments are not restricted to non-Christians. Christians are just as tempted to commit sin, act selfishly, etc. I simply stated that morals must go beyond human reason, logic, rationality, etc. because of our inherent sin nature. So, I would trust no one's conscience ALONE(exclusively, apart from outside accountability) and certainly not without instruction from God's word about right vs wrong.

 

 

Even if that were true, I would pick a different text than "God's word" for my moral guidelines. I much prefer the "The Way of the Bodhisattva" by Shantideva, for one.

 

I also do not believe in "our inherent sin nature". On the contrary, to the opposite I think our original nature is pure and stainless.

 

 

I believe we all have aconscience, and most function well most of the time - but again, underconditions of duress or in a position to profit (in any number of ways)where there is no accountability outside of ourselves, I wouldn't trust anyone's conscience as the single sufficient means for doing the rightthing. And I do believe that knowing that a course of action/thought/word/attitude would grieve and disappoint our heavenlyFather, and would offend His holy character & standards, this wouldadd sufficient strength to fully resist the temptation.

 

Do you not think that there is ample evidence from human history to substantiate this position?

 

I think its possible that some people have been deterred by a fear of hell and social stigma, but "grieve and disapointing God" normally isn't a strong motivation for discontinuing a so-called sin.

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I hated being told the harm I had done didn't matter AT ALL when I knew that was not true. I hold myself accountable to myself. I hold myself accountable to other people (ACoA group, carefully selected nonChristian friends, certified nonChristian counselor) who strive for honesty and integrity for when I fail on my own. I strive to be aware of my transgressions, and then to face them and to change the behavior. I have always been terrified of punishment, but understand that certain consequences drive me to growth and increased honesty and integrity, help hold me accountable. And so I accept them.

 

 

But hear this: for ME, that is, for someone with my level of sensitivity and disposition, the language used in the gospel is heavy-handed. Rather than driving me to be a better person, it drives me to want to slash my wrists. Do you get that?

 

 

What does the Gospel hold for you? Jesus said >>

<SNIP>

Bottom line: God is holy, we are not. Jesus died & rose to take that penalty we deserved, and by simple faith in Him, we can appropriate that for ourselves >> resulting in a personal relationship with God, forgiveness of sins, being reconciled to God & others, receiving eternal life >> secure in the knowledge that God is our heavenly Father, who is committed to our welfare for all eternity.

 

Where is the heavy-handedness you felt?

 

You don't get what Phanta was conveying to you. Faith allows one to NOT be accountable. She changes her behavior for the better without faith. The reason she has fear is because other people instilled it within her. No magic will erase this for her.

 

The new testament exacerbates her (our) weaknesses, creating artificial guilt in addition to real guilt already there due to bad experiences. Believing god forgives doesn't erase wrongdoing, but excuses it. Being sorrowful doesn't erase the wrongs either.

 

Sure she is sensitive and maybe a perfectionist, but she is right in that we are responsible for our behavior. Salvation excuses poor behavior while making thoughts and feelings, crimes. The murderer who becomes a christian is no longer resonsible for the crimes he committed. But the person who felt lust has committed adultery and will burn without belief.

 

Believe or be punished by god, no matter how empathetic and kind we are. Without belief, we are evil. We are born pieces of shit, so we are being set up to believe we ARE turds. Then god drops his golden turd on us and magically stops our shit from stinking. This is the pessimism of the new testament as to human nature.

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But I would maintain that Christians are capable of greater levels of love than unbelievers. Not because of who we are; but because of God's work in our hearts.

 

Here is my response to your comment.

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This is a reasonable retelling of the message I offered.

 

Phanta

 

 

:phew: I almost didn't post that because I wasn't sure if I was overstepping my bounds by answering what was said to you. Thanks Phanta.

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If God tells a person to kill another human being, just like Joshua, Moses, and many more in the old testament, how do you know it was God then, but not God now if he tells Bob across the street to do the same thing? If God told the president to invade a country, would it be right? How would you know if it was right or not?

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. The men you mentioned were recognized as prophets of God; and there are no Apostles or prophets today. God has provided everything we need for life and godliness thru Jesus Christ, the Bible, the indwelling Spirit, and our brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

I've worked out what I find so infuriating about this argument. It's this kind of implicitly saying "Yea, all that slaughtering of infants carried out in the name of God, by Moses or what have you, Was a supremely good act" Out of one side of your mouth then out of the other saying "oh but I would never do such a terrible thing".

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have strong convictions, but the evidence of my life's journey does not point, in general, to one who sticks to a position when proven wrong. Indeed, when I am presented with sufficient evidence, I have made very painful transformations which included some hard looks at the damage I had done to loved ones doing what I thought at the time was best, even though it was actually the opposite. These transformations took time, but my observation is that this is the norm when one builds up a certain frame of understanding and practices it for many years. Ultimately, I would truly rather do what is best rather than live the illusion and continue actually causing harm.

 

I'm sorry for not being more specific - the example I stated was just an example - I did not mean for you to apply that to yourself - I did not detect any stubborness in you.

 

What does the Gospel hold for you? Jesus said >>

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

 

I'm not sure how that is supposed to work.

 

We labor to follow all the rules/commandments as well as expectations others have for us >> and when we don't live up to all these things, we may lay upon ourselees a 'false guilt' >> as Agnosticator pointed out, our own sin causes real, true guilt - and that is sufficient. We manufacture false guilt when we lay too much on ourselves. We may often blame ourselves for things that are completely out of our control.

 

Jesus instructs us to come to Him in prayer - lay out these burdens before Him. As Peter instructs us;

1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

1Pe 5:7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

 

And Hebrews, as well;

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

We are to bring all our anxieties to God - He will answer our prayer for our good and His glory. Now comes a difficult part - we must be patient to wait for God's answer, and we must stop worrying and feeling guilty about the issue. And we may need to 'train' oursleves in this. If we sinned and confessed our sin to God, He promises to forgive. Now - we may need to ask another person for forgiveness and make restitution - and there is no guarantee that this person will grant forgiveness or accept restitution - but we must humble oursleves and make that effort. They may even lash out at us - but God calls us to seek reconcilation in all our relationships, even to love and pray for our enemies.

 

Do we sometimes fear that we may be separated from God's love?

Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this is saying. Do I fear that I am separated from Gods love? No. Sometimes, because of my childhood, I am afraid that there is a God who will flay my skin from my body and roast me on a spit when I die if I don't do whatever it is I am supposed to do just the right way. That's about it

 

I would say that if you fear God will flay you for things done in your childhood - then you do fear you're separated from God's love. Again, Jesus the Messiah died in our place, took upon Himself the penalty for our sin; so that now

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

 

Do we think that our sins are too many, too severe, too damaging?

Rom 5:20 ... but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Again, I'm not sure what this is saying.

 

This means that our sin can not be greater than God's grace. We cannot 'out-sin' the grace of God. Whatever sin(s) is sincerely confessed with genuine remorse & repentance >> God will forgive. Jesus, because of His love & mercy & grace, paid for that sin by His death on the cross.

 

God is holy, we are not. Jesus died & rose to take that penalty we deserved, and by simple faith in Him, we can appropriate that for ourselves >> resulting in a personal relationship with God, forgiveness of sins, being reconciled to God & others, receiving eternal life >> secure in the knowledge that God is our heavenly Father, who is committed to our welfare for all eternity. Where is the heavy-handedness you felt?

 

In its delivery by its followers, with their blustery challenges at street corners and festivals. Edit: To clarify, I feel the heavy-handedness in its fruit.

 

Yes, I understand that. Some Christians in their zeal for serving God and preaching His Gospel have sometimes used methods of intimidation and have resorted to harshness. But God is a God of justice & love, righteousness & mercy, judgment & salvation - we must underatsnd all these things and teach them as God reveals Himslef in Scripture. So sometimes Christians preach/teach one aspect and ignore the other. This is unfortunate.

 

I don't understand faith, I am told I have no faith, I am reliant on my ways (which, by the way, have helped me survive terrible times when prayer and Christians--for the most part-- brought me insufficient comfort or support), and so I am told I will be eternally punished. Heavy handed. Where is the mercy for me, Ray? Where? Where is God's evidence to me of His goodness, or even his existence, in some form that will reach me?

 

My faith is a confident trust that God is who He says He is in the Bible - with a myriad of attributes, all of which He possesses in perfection. A firm conviction that God sent His Son for me (and for all beleivers) to deliver me from a plight I could not extricate myself from - that is >> myself. It is my will, my desires, my selfishness, my looking to myself and not being humble before my Creator & Redeemer God >> this forms the basis for my true guilt. And I cannot change my heart.

 

But God can - and He will heal me and forgive me (and any who ask) from my sin and myself. God can & does change human hearts. I have seen God change me and many others.

 

I'm not willing to brainwash myself into belief. If I do that, my faith will always be false. Do you see that?

 

Absolutely, and I concur.

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You don't get what Phanta was conveying to you. Faith allows one to NOT be accountable. She changes her behavior for the better without faith. The reason she has fear is because other people instilled it within her. No magic will erase this for her.

 

Faith does not remove accountability - faith trusts that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, remove the guilt of sin through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. God calls us to seek forgiveness from others, pay restitution when appropriate, pray for and love our enemies, etc. All Scripture instructs believers to live holy lives. Where do you see a lack of accountablility?

 

The new testament exacerbates her (our) weaknesses, creating artificial guilt in addition to real guilt already there due to bad experiences. Believing god forgives doesn't erase wrongdoing, but excuses it. Being sorrowful doesn't erase the wrongs either.

 

Our real & true guilt rises from our thots, words, actions, conduct, etc that are wrong, harmful, hateful, selfish, etc. >> not bad experiences. Yes, belief in God does not erase wrongdoing >> but it provides assurance of forgiveness (second chance) and is granted upon sincere expressions of remorse, repentance (turning from that sin), and confession - mainly to God, but also to others. God's grace & mercy cannot be mocked and abused; cannot be used as a license to sin. Anyone doing that would prove that they do not know God; and they are therefore >> unbeleivers.

 

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

 

Christ's death & resurrection sets us free from sin's penalty & power in our lives >> we now walk in newness of life.

 

Sure she is sensitive and maybe a perfectionist, but she is right in that we are responsible for our behavior. Salvation excuses poor behavior while making thoughts and feelings, crimes. The murderer who becomes a christian is no longer resonsible for the crimes he committed. But the person who felt lust has committed adultery and will burn without belief.

 

How would this lustful person obtain or receive forgiveness? Would they speak out and give voice to their lust so everyone would know what's in their heart? Or would they keep this secret, ashamed of what is in their heart? Can they eliminate this lust from their heart, or do they walk about plagued by its recurrent presence within? How do they live with themselves? Do they just excuse their lust as 'normal, natural' and maybe live it out and practice adultery?

 

We cannot remove the sin from our hearts, though we try. But we can humbly admit our sinful condition; ask God to forgive us, thank Him for Jesus who died and rose for us - and pledge & commit by God's grace to repent of all sin. Will we then be perfect or excused? No, we're forgiven, and always exhorted to repent and confess and seek God's work in our lives to change our hearts. And even a murderer will be forgiven, because God's grace is greater than all sin. But once saved & forgiven, he will seek to live the righteous life God has called His children to live.

 

Where's the lack of accountability?

 

Believe or be punished by god, no matter how empathetic and kind we are. Without belief, we are evil. We are born pieces of shit, so we are being set up to believe we ARE turds. Then god drops his golden turd on us and magically stops our shit from stinking. This is the pessimism of the new testament as to human nature.

 

As you look at your life and heart, and human history - are you unconvinced that Man is a sinner by nature? Where does evil come from? And are there not times when each of us has done something evil - in thot, attitude, word, action, conduct, etc? How do we rectify that and make it right?

 

Mat 15:18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

Mat 15:20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."

 

You cannot change yourself or save yourself from who you are - but God can and will. And this is His love for us, His grace for us, His mercy towards us - anyone who calls on God >> God will save them and change them.

 

The Bible paints a realistic and true picture of Man - and of God's love for Man, whom He created in His own image & likeness. God loves Man so much that He - as the Second Person of the Trinity - took on human nature, and died & rose for us; that we might be in heaven with God for all eternity. This is pessimism?

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Ray, those aren't my quote. Ag was paraphrasing me, and you have it as a direct quote.

 

Phanta

 

Yes, I understand, but I thot that in #145 you said he gave a reasonable retelling of your message. If I misunderstood, please accept my apologies.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So your only a Christian if you do Christian works. It's not enough just to believe in Christ. Very well then.

 

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates salvation is based on our simply acknowledging truth about Jesus the Messiah. If that were the case, then demons would be considered believers.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,

Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

 

Jesus promises salvation to those who believe in Him - meaning those who follow Jesus.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

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I know some Churches do reach out, but coming from an organization that did so myself, I can see how it's part of the plan of indoctrinating people with the Gospel and convert them, so the "help" tends to (most of the time, but not necessarily always) with a hidden agenda.

 

Why would your desire to reach out with the Gospel and seek to bring people into reconciliation with God be a hidden agenda. We do lots for our community - and we do it for the Gospel and for the community's good. Those are not mutually exclusive priorities.

 

So that's the revelation from your God that there's exception to the moral code of lying? David's actions is your confirmation to escape God's 10 commandments? It doesn't really work, I'm afraid. Would Salomon's harem justify you to have many wives too? Sounds like you're fishing for Bible verses to justify your immorality, but only when it fits you. That's why Christianity is a broken moral system.

 

The question was whether deception is always wrong - I said the Bible presented some deception as being acceptable. This is not a fault in Biblical morality. And the comparison to Solomon's harem - which was specifically condemned in God's Law - is just nonsense.

 

So you're okay with killing in the name of God, genocide, even killing babies, have a harem, lying, etc. Perhaps there's a verse about stealing you can use when you want something from your neighbor. But of course you still love him, and this makes it right to steal if the Bible gives you an example of someone doing it in there. What about the prophet who left his wife and family to live with a harlot? That's good too? Why not? Why one thing but not the other?

 

Where in the world are you getting all this nonsense?

 

Well, obviously, based on your argument above, it's okay to lie and murder, since some holy people did so in the Bible. So if the pressure comes on, then you have a perfect excuse and still maintain your dignity as holy person. Isn't that neat? Do whatever you want, and feel good about it. It is corrupt.

 

Again, where do you get this nonsense? All I have ever said is that all people - even some of God's people whom He has used to accomplish His will -are sinners. And they show they're sinners on a fairly regular basis. And their sin is noted and punished by God. You say you've read the Bible - what happened to Jacob, Samson, David, Solomon, Ananias & Sapphira, etc when they sinned? Why do Jesus & Paul give instructions regarding church discipline?

 

So if Billy Graham would kill someone and said, "God told me to," then it is okay? It's morally right if a so called holy person does it, but not if an unholy does it? Righteous people have the right to sin, but people who are not righteous does not have the right to sin? Is that how it goes? A "get out of jail for free" card because you have a connection to God. I think that is immoral and unjust.

 

I cannot see - for the life of me - where you have derived such a conclusion? Is Billy Graham a prophet? NO! The Church is not the nation of Israel functioning in a theocracy for gov't responsibilities - and surrounded by enemies bent on her destruction. The Church no longer has Apostles or prophets who receive direct revelation from God. God communicates to us through the Bible. No one claiming God told them to murder would be accepted.

 

In the NT, the Church is now in the New Covenant. All executions are to be done by the secular gov't - see Rom 13; and we teach the execution for capital offenses be conducted by the civil gov't. We condemn abortion, killing of the innocent - and we encourage adoption.

 

Are you just having a bad day?

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So you're okay with killing in the name of God, genocide, even killing babies, have a harem, lying, etc. Perhaps there's a verse about stealing you can use when you want something from your neighbor. But of course you still love him, and this makes it right to steal if the Bible gives you an example of someone doing it in there. What about the prophet who left his wife and family to live with a harlot? That's good too? Why not? Why one thing but not the other?

 

Where in the world are you getting all this nonsense?

The Bible.

 

Well, obviously, based on your argument above, it's okay to lie and murder, since some holy people did so in the Bible. So if the pressure comes on, then you have a perfect excuse and still maintain your dignity as holy person. Isn't that neat? Do whatever you want, and feel good about it. It is corrupt.

 

Again, where do you get this nonsense? All I have ever said is that all people - even some of God's people whom He has used to accomplish His will -are sinners. And they show they're sinners on a fairly regular basis. And their sin is noted and punished by God. You say you've read the Bible - what happened to Jacob, Samson, David, Solomon, Ananias & Sapphira, etc when they sinned? Why do Jesus & Paul give instructions regarding church discipline?

Again, I'm getting it from the Bible.

 

Are you just having a bad day?

Eh, no. My questions were regarding your view on morality based on the atrocities performed in the Bible, which were, no less, blessed by God.

 

The problem is that you have earlier described that actions are good if God commands them. Even genocide is okay, only if God commands you to. Killing is okay, if God told you to.

 

You don't see it, do you? Morality based on a book which gives you the right to act evil, only if you claim it is from God, is an immoral book. And your religion is morally corrupt.

 

If I had a Holy Book which told me it was okay to kill Christians, you would scream from the top of your lungs how evil and deprived that book would be. And yet you defend such a book when it is your own Holy Book.

 

It's SICK.

 

And do you know how to think about rhetorical questions? Do you know how to think about possible situations? If you read this: If X kills Y and claims God told him to. That doesn't mean that X did kill Y in real life, it's a hypothetical question. Lets say, as a thought experiment, that X did say God told him to kill Y. Then according to your apologetic method of the Bible, it would make perfect sense to say X was justified and morally right to kill Y, because if God tell him to do it, then it is good.

 

And that's the point.

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No. You'll die just like the rest of us.

 

You are correct - I most certainly will die like every other sinner. That is the fate of all sinners.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

But then, Jesus will bring me to Himself in heaven, forever.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

 

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

 

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,

2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

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The problem is that you have earlier described that actions are good if God commands them. Even genocide is okay, only if God commands you to. Killing is okay, if God told you to. You don't see it, do you? Morality based on a book which gives you the right to act evil, only if you claim it is from God, is an immoral book. And your religion is morally corrupt.

 

If I had a Holy Book which told me it was okay to kill Christians, you would scream from the top of your lungs how evil and deprived that book would be. And yet you defend such a book when it is your own Holy Book. It's SICK.

 

You don't understand that commands by God to kill are inherently righteous based on God's holy character. And such commands for specific violence were given by direct revelation from God, and were righteous acts of His judgment against rampant sin & wickedness.

 

And just because someone 'claims' that God told them something has never been sufficient grounds for anyone to justify anything. The OT believers were instructed to prove the prophets by observing whether their prophecies were fulfilled - if not, they were false prophets speaking from their own imaginations who brought their execution upon themselves. The prophetic office is a place of reverence - and to misuse or abuse that office brings punishmne tcommensurate with the crime. False prophets, who often encouraged Jewish kings to go to war against God's will, were condemned throughout the OT.

 

Even in the NT, Luke & Paul commended people who searched the Scripture to test Christian teaching;

Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

The same for the Apostle John;

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

And don't forget that God spared Nineveh from judgment - though Assyria was a brutal & cruel people. See the book of Jonah. So again, this thought that someone claims that God told him something - and we all sit around and just blithely accept it - that is just not true of God's people.

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