Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity

[Ouroboros]

You don't understand that commands by God to kill are inherently righteous based on God's holy character. And such commands for specific violence were given by direct revelation from God, and were righteous acts of His judgment against rampant sin & wickedness.

How do you know if someone kills someone based on God's righteous command or not? By their own words, and their own testimony of their own revelations.

 

How do you know that the murderers in the Bible got the righteous commands from God to do those acts and not just their excuse?

 

And just because someone 'claims' that God told them something has never been sufficient grounds for anyone to justify anything. The OT believers were instructed to prove the prophets by observing whether their prophecies were fulfilled - if not, they were false prophets speaking from their own imaginations who brought their execution upon themselves. The prophetic office is a place of reverence - and to misuse or abuse that office brings punishmne tcommensurate with the crime. False prophets, who often encouraged Jewish kings to go to war against God's will, were condemned throughout the OT.

What made David, Moses, or any other ruler real prophets?

 

It was only by their own words.

 

If a ruler who supposedly is led by God gets the command from God to kill a whole culture, we're supposed to accept it as a righteous act of God?

 

Even in the NT, Luke & Paul commended people who searched the Scripture to test Christian teaching;

Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

The same for the Apostle John;

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So again, if one of today's prophets gets a command--supposedly--from God to kill another human being, then it is righteous according to you?

 

And don't forget that God spared Nineveh from judgment - though Assyria was a brutal & cruel people. See the book of Jonah. So again, this thought that someone claims that God told him something - and we all sit around and just blithely accept it - that is just not true of God's people.

That has nothing to do with the issue. It's a sidetrack.

 

It is still morally wrong to use God as an excuse. We can't know if God gave the instructions to any of the rulers in the Old Testament. It's only based on your say-so. You're justifying genocide and murder based solely on your belief. That is morally corrupt.

 

Again, it's SICK!

[Deva]

No. You'll die just like the rest of us.

 

You are correct - I most certainly will die like every other sinner. That is the fate of all sinners.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

But then, Jesus will bring me to Himself in heaven, forever.

 

 

So, essentially your death will not be the same as "every other sinner" because you will be in heaven immediately and the rest of us will be in hell. This is what I really hate. Christians that don't just come out and honestly say what they think. Its got to be a bunch of hedging, verse-quoting weaseling and waffling around to make it palatable. No matter how you try to serve it up, it still indigestible.

 

So you say "yes, I will die like every other sinner" when you know damn well Christians don't believe that. The whole rest of your Bible quoting post is to illustrate that.

 

The truth is death is death, and being born is the beginning of it. We are all dying at this moment, no exceptions. "Sinning" doesn't enter into it.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

You don't understand that commands by God to kill are inherently righteous based on God's holy character. And such commands for specific violence were given by direct revelation from God, and were righteous acts of His judgment against rampant sin & wickedness.

 

 

 

And you don't understand that the Christian religion is just a pathetic mind virus bent on perpetuating itself no matter what atrocities have to be committed upon innocent men women and children. All over the world atrocities and genocide are committed based on the "rampant sin & wickedness" of people who are deposed and whose lands and resources are coveted. In many cases such acts are portrayed as bing in line with "God's holy character."

 

I think anyone who finds killing people "inherently righteous" has very corrupt and vile values.

[centauri]

The problem is that you have earlier described that actions are good if God commands them. Even genocide is okay, only if God commands you to. Killing is okay, if God told you to. You don't see it, do you? Morality based on a book which gives you the right to act evil, only if you claim it is from God, is an immoral book. And your religion is morally corrupt.

 

If I had a Holy Book which told me it was okay to kill Christians, you would scream from the top of your lungs how evil and deprived that book would be. And yet you defend such a book when it is your own Holy Book. It's SICK.

 

You don't understand that commands by God to kill are inherently righteous based on God's holy character. And such commands for specific violence were given by direct revelation from God, and were righteous acts of His judgment against rampant sin & wickedness.

There isn't a single claim in here that you can actually validate.

It's all assertion, based on self-serving theological whims.

Whatever this god does is automatically holy by default.

Any believer in any "God" can make the same claims.

You have a lot in common with many new age gurus I've encountered, who claim that there is really no such thing as malfunction, disease, or suffering.

It's all unrecognized perfection created by the divine Oneself.

In your case, the perfection resides in a male tribal entity rather than a universal Oneself.

 

And just because someone 'claims' that God told them something has never been sufficient grounds for anyone to justify anything.

Except in the Bible, then it's perfectly justified because whatever it claims is automatically true.

If it's recorded in the magic book, then it must be valid.

 

Even in the NT, Luke & Paul commended people who searched the Scripture to test Christian teaching;

Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

The same for the Apostle John;

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

One Christian believers idea of false can be completely different than anothers.

Given the schisms in Christianity, there is no universal consensus on what a false teaching is regarding many key elements of the faith.

 

So again, this thought that someone claims that God told him something - and we all sit around and just blithely accept it - that is just not true of God's people.

Yet "God's people" having no trouble announcing that God speaks to them all the time.

There are plenty of preachers that claim God speaks to them about all sorts of issues and guides their words.

[rayskidude]

the Christian religion is just a pathetic mind virus bent on perpetuating itself no matter what atrocities have to be committed upon innocent men women and children.

 

What innocent men & women suffering atrocities from Christians are you referring to? Where & when was this, and what were the specific atrocities commited by the Christians?

[rayskidude]

Whatever this god does is automatically holy by default.

 

Yes, God is infinitely holy, as are His commands, statutues, ordinances, etc.

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!"

 

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

 

You have a lot in common with many new age gurus I've encountered, who claim that there is really no such thing as malfunction, disease, or suffering. It's all unrecognized perfection created by the divine Oneself. In your case, the perfection resides in a male tribal entity rather than a universal Oneself.

 

If you think this - then you certainly don't understand Biblical Christianity (and you certainly do not understand the Bible nor Biblical religion, nor the Biblical God) - and you haven't even been paying attention to what I've posted.

 

I have stated that disease, death, suffering, sorrow, etc are real and are the result of SIN. And I have repeatedly said that God is separate and exalted over His Creation - there is no divine Person except the objective, Triune God of the universe, Creator & Sustainer of all, Redeemer to all who call on Him for salvation. All other beings are created beings, unable to attain divine status.

 

Are you haivng reading comprehension issues?

 

Except in the Bible, then it's perfectly justified because whatever it claims is automatically true. If it's recorded in the magic book, then it must be valid.

 

Wow, God's word is vindicated, true, and valid? Who'da thunk it?

 

One Christian believers idea of false can be completely different than anothers. Given the schisms in Christianity, there is no universal consensus on what a false teaching is regarding many key elements of the faith.

 

Are you serious? Christians argue about the deity of Christ? about God as Creator & Sustainer & Redeemer? about the Bible as God's word? about the Trinity? about the doctrine of salavtion by God's grace alone thru faith alone in Jesus Christ alone as taught in the Bible alone?

 

The only people arguing about these are cultists. Apparently, you lack the discernment to distinguish between cults and Christians. I'm not surprised.

 

Yet "God's people" having no trouble announcing that God speaks to them all the time. There are plenty of preachers that claim God speaks to them about all sorts of issues and guides their words.

 

Really? Who are these nutjob preachers that you listen to? And how does God 'speak' to them?

[rayskidude]

So, essentially your death will not be the same as "every other sinner" because you will be in heaven immediately and the rest of us will be in hell. This is what I really hate. Christians that don't just come out and honestly say what they think. Its got to be a bunch of hedging, verse-quoting weaseling and waffling around to make it palatable. No matter how you try to serve it up, it still indigestible. So you say "yes, I will die like every other sinner" when you know damn well Christians don't believe that. The whole rest of your Bible quoting post is to illustrate that.

 

The truth is death is death, and being born is the beginning of it. We are all dying at this moment, no exceptions. "Sinning" doesn't enter into it.

 

Actually, my death, or that of any other believer or unbeliever - are all the same. All deaths are due directly to our sin. Sin is the cause of death, before the existence of sin there was no death. But sin brought death upon mankind and all Creation.

 

Ecc 2:14 The wise person has his eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I perceived that the same event happens to all of them.

Ecc 2:15 Then I said in my heart, "What happens to the fool will happen to me also. Why then have I been so very wise?" And I said in my heart that this also is vanity.

Ecc 2:16 For of the wise as of the fool there is no enduring remembrance, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How the wise dies just like the fool!

 

Ecc 8:9 All this I observed while applying my heart to all that is done under the sun, when man had power over man to his hurt.

Ecc 8:10 Then I saw the wicked buried. They used to go in and out of the holy place and were praised in the city where they had done such things. This also is vanity.

Ecc 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil.

Ecc 8:12 Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him.

Ecc 8:13 But it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God.

 

The difference you mention is regarding our eternal destiny after death. Those who have humbly acknowledged their sin before God, who have asked God for mercy & forgiveness, and who repent of sin and then place their faith in Jesus the Messiah as their LORD & Savior - to these believers, Jesus has promised to take them into heaven to places that He prepared for them.

 

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

Joh 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

[rayskidude]

How do you know if someone kills someone based on God's righteous command or not? By their own words, and their own testimony of their own revelations. How do you know that the murderers in the Bible got the righteous commands from God to do those acts and not just their excuse?

 

In the OT, commands to kill anyone were pronounced by recognized leaders, and the commands were generally given in righteousness, and as a response to a heinous crime. There were some evil kings in Israel who murdered unjustly (and King David did once, as well) - but these occasions were always condemned. Do you have some proof of unrighteous killing that went uncondemned and unpunished by God?

 

What made David, Moses, or any other ruler real prophets? It was only by their own words. If a ruler who supposedly is led by God gets the command from God to kill a whole culture, we're supposed to accept it as a righteous act of God?

 

God's choice of rulers and prophets was proven by their message and their miracles. Moses performed miracles by the power of God, and this was recognized by all - even the Egyptians. David was anointed king by Samuel the Judge of the kingdom. Someone simply claiming a prophetic office was not accepted. Have you actually read the OT? Your questions and comments show a real ignorance about what the Bible teaches and records.

 

So again, if one of today's prophets gets a command--supposedly--from God to kill another human being, then it is righteous according to you?

 

As I have said before - there are no prophets today!!!

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

 

Do you see? The church was built on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone, and a foundation of Apostles and prophets IN THE PAST. Jesus, nor Apostles, nor prophets are on Earth today. This is not difficult to understand.

 

And don't forget that God spared Nineveh from judgment - though Assyria was a brutal & cruel people. See the book of Jonah. So again, this thought that someone claims that God told him something - and we all sit around and just blithely accept it - that is just not true of God's people.

 

That has nothing to do with the issue. It's a sidetrack.

 

This has everything to do with the issue - you just don't want to admit that your point is just pointless. Where did God command an unrighteous execution or killing of anyone? What murder did He not condemn?

 

It is still morally wrong to use God as an excuse. We can't know if God gave the instructions to any of the rulers in the Old Testament. It's only based on your say-so. You're justifying genocide and murder based solely on your belief. That is morally corrupt. Again, it's SICK!

 

Nobody is using God as an excuse to kill indiscriminately; God never calls on His people to punish others without sufficient cause. The fact that you are woefully ignorant of the Biblical record does not justify your 'drive-by' accusations.

[centauri]

Whatever this god does is automatically holy by default.

 

Yes, God is infinitely holy, as are His commands, statutues, ordinances, etc.

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!"

 

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

You practice reality by assertion, which doesn’t actually establish anything.

Quoting scripture doesn’t make something real or holy.

You simply assume that which you need to establish, somehow believing your assertions are binding on all others.

Your version of God is not validated as being real or holy simply because you quote scripture from the advertising brochure.

 

centauri:

You have a lot in common with many new age gurus I've encountered, who claim that there is really no such thing as malfunction, disease, or suffering. It's all unrecognized perfection created by the divine Oneself. In your case, the perfection resides in a male tribal entity rather than a universal Oneself.

 

If you think this - then you certainly don't understand Biblical Christianity (and you certainly do not understand the Bible nor Biblical religion, nor the Biblical God) - and you haven't even been paying attention to what I've posted.

Oh my goodness, such a certain lack of understanding on my part.

Oh great one, I need to bow to your vast knowledge and superior wisdom, when it’s nothing more than a bunch of theological assertions that you can’t even establish as being real.

I’m keeping in mind that according to the Catholic Church you’re a heretic, so don’t preach to me about not understanding that which you can’t even validate as being correct.

I understand this---that you’ll rationalize anything as long as your version of God comes out pristine and appealing to your theological preferences.

 

I have stated that disease, death, suffering, sorrow, etc are real and are the result of SIN. And I have repeatedly said that God is separate and exalted over His Creation - there is no divine Person except the objective, Triune God of the universe, Creator & Sustainer of all, Redeemer to all who call on Him for salvation. All other beings are created beings, unable to attain divine status.

 

Are you haivng reading comprehension issues?

Are you a professional inane drone or is it a part time job for you?

You state all sorts of things, none of which are actually backed up with anything more than selected lines of scripture and your desire for them to be true.

New Age gurus do the same thing and claim that everything is proceeding according to the divine plan of the Oneself.

Your theology is quite similar.

Sin is part of God’s plan.

Without sin there would be no need for salvation as everything would already be in order.

Now, if you don’t think your God is sovereign and in control, just say so.

 

centauri:

Except in the Bible, then it's perfectly justified because whatever it claims is automatically true. If it's recorded in the magic book, then it must be valid.

 

Wow, God's word is vindicated, true, and valid? Who'da thunk it?

You not only think it, you want everyone else to think it as well.

You want to create reality for everyone else by spewing theological assertions mixed with bits of scripture from a book that you assume is divine.

Naturally, you don’t actually establish that it is divine, but prefer to sit on your throne, wave your wand and make it all real by decree.

[centauri]

One Christian believers idea of false can be completely different than anothers. Given the schisms in Christianity, there is no universal consensus on what a false teaching is regarding many key elements of the faith.

 

Are you serious? Christians argue about the deity of Christ? about God as Creator & Sustainer & Redeemer? about the Bible as God's word? about the Trinity? about the doctrine of salavtion by God's grace alone thru faith alone in Jesus Christ alone as taught in the Bible alone?

 

The only people arguing about these are cultists. Apparently, you lack the discernment to distinguish between cults and Christians. I'm not surprised.

You assume that you hold the high ground on Christian truth and can judge other Christians as cultists.

You’re quite full of yourself, puffed up would be a good Biblical description.

Anyone that has the nerve to point out the obvious flaws in Christian unity lacks discernment, which you think you possess in abundance.

But I’m not surprised, I’ve seen it in many God-soaked zealots.

You haven’t established which Christians are cultists nor have you proven that they aren’t just as Christian as you think you are.

But you’re stuck with the very real lack of Christian unity that has been going on for hundreds of years.

All you’ve done so far is to employ a form of the No True Scotsman fallacy to cover up the divine mess.

 

centauri:

Yet "God's people" having no trouble announcing that God speaks to them all the time. There are plenty of preachers that claim God speaks to them about all sorts of issues and guides their words.

 

Really? Who are these nutjob preachers that you listen to? And how does God 'speak' to them?

It might be through Holy Spirit magic, kind of like hearing voices.

Pat Roberston, Doyle Davidson, John Hagee, Ronnie Floyd, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Oral Roberts have been and are just a few of them.

[Ouroboros]

In the OT, commands to kill anyone were pronounced by recognized leaders, and the commands were generally given in righteousness, and as a response to a heinous crime. There were some evil kings in Israel who murdered unjustly (and King David did once, as well) - but these occasions were always condemned. Do you have some proof of unrighteous killing that went uncondemned and unpunished by God?

Killing in the name of God is always immoral in my book. Killing in the name of Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, or Bob, are all the same. It is always wrong.

 

The reason is you can NEVER know if it was ordered by God or not.

 

God's choice of rulers and prophets was proven by their message and their miracles. Moses performed miracles by the power of God, and this was recognized by all - even the Egyptians. David was anointed king by Samuel the Judge of the kingdom. Someone simply claiming a prophetic office was not accepted. Have you actually read the OT? Your questions and comments show a real ignorance about what the Bible teaches and records.

I believe those stories are just that, stories. No miracles happened. The stories were just made up to make the killings seem righteous to the followers. The use of religion to cover political power and oppression has been used so many times.

 

As I have said before - there are no prophets today!!!

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

 

Do you see? The church was built on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone, and a foundation of Apostles and prophets IN THE PAST. Jesus, nor Apostles, nor prophets are on Earth today. This is not difficult to understand.

So prophets can kill and it's still moral?

 

And the verses you're quoting does not say that there are no prophets today. They're bad choices for supporting your statement.

 

This has everything to do with the issue - you just don't want to admit that your point is just pointless. Where did God command an unrighteous execution or killing of anyone? What murder did He not condemn?

A couple of million of them. Someone made a headcount on how many people in the Bible were supposedly killed by the command of God, or directly by him.

 

Nobody is using God as an excuse to kill indiscriminately; God never calls on His people to punish others without sufficient cause. The fact that you are woefully ignorant of the Biblical record does not justify your 'drive-by' accusations.

You haven't read your Bible then.

[bdp]

woefully ignorant

 

You have no idea who you're calling 'woefully ignorant' of the 'bible.' You're an arrogant ass.

[hereticzero]

the Christian religion is just a pathetic mind virus bent on perpetuating itself no matter what atrocities have to be committed upon innocent men women and children.

 

What innocent men & women suffering atrocities from Christians are you referring to? Where & when was this, and what were the specific atrocities commited by the Christians?

The decimation and genocide of native Indians beginning with Chris Columbus and lasting to present by Christian Europeans in North America comes to mind quickly. The genocide of the Jew in WWII was performed by Nazis who also claimed to be Catholic are another that come to mind.

[hereticzero]

Spanish inquisition and the Salem witch trials are other atrocities perpetrated by Christians against the innocent. Not to forget the crusades invading the mid east and slaughtering muslims.

[hereticzero]

The murder of Indians in Utah at the hands of good Christian Mormons also come to mind.

 

The framing and murder of Indian Ned Christie also comes to mind. He was proven to have been framed by good Christian settlers who decided they wanted his land also. He was framed for a murder he did not commit and was then hunted down and murdered by the good boys that do the Christians dirty work, law enforcement.

 

The wars between England and Scotland and England and Ireland are known for their Christian savagery.

 

The drug war is supported by good Christians who are responsible for the murder of innocent people whose doors are kicked in at the wrong address during no-knock raids.

 

Do a search on Christian atrocities and see what you get.

 

Need more examples of Christian atrocities, let me know.

[rayskidude]

You assume that you hold the high ground on Christian truth and can judge other Christians as cultists.

You’re quite full of yourself, puffed up would be a good Biblical description.

Anyone that has the nerve to point out the obvious flaws in Christian unity lacks discernment, which you think you possess in abundance.

But I’m not surprised, I’ve seen it in many God-soaked zealots.

You haven’t established which Christians are cultists nor have you proven that they aren’t just as Christian as you think you are.

 

Have I quoted any Scripture out of context? If so, please let me now - I am sincerely open to being instructed. But as far as I know, I have only presented historic orthodox Christianity. Those who are cultists are not usualy difficult to discern - they are generally wrong about the Nature of God, the Nature of Jesus the Messiah, or the doctrine of salvation - just look at those three areas in their teachings.

 

But you’re stuck with the very real lack of Christian unity that has been going on for hundreds of years. All you’ve done so far is to employ a form of the No True Scotsman fallacy to cover up the divine mess.

 

Acually, all I've done is relate what Jesus and His Apostles said would happen in human history.

 

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray.

Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

Mat 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.

Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

 

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.

 

And I know that you're aware of many other passages that speak of false prophets and teachers - the Pastoral Epistles, Jude, and II Peter are choked full of warnings.

 

rayskidude asked - Really? Who are these nutjob preachers that you listen to? And how does God 'speak' to them?

 

It might be through Holy Spirit magic, kind of like hearing voices.

Pat Roberston, Doyle Davidson, John Hagee, Ronnie Floyd, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Oral Roberts have been and are just a few of them.

 

These men are clearly false prophets, false teachers, despicable men - and my heart goes out to anyone who has been deceived and trapped by these wolves in sheep's clothing. The Epistle of Jude rightly characterizes these men you've listed. Judge these men by their fruit in their own lives, they're charismatic cranks.

 

Please - and this goes out to everyone - remember the words of Jesus the Messiah;

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.

Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Mat 7:24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

 

Pastoral men to listen to would be RC Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper, Albert Mohler, CJ Mahaney, James Kennedy (deceased), Timothy Keller, Mark Dever, Mark Driscoll (though he can be crude at times, his theology is Biblical)

 

SO, the guys you mentioned - as Scripture says, "Avoid such men as these!"

[rayskidude]

The murder of Indians in Utah at the hands of good Christian Mormons also come to mind. The wars between England and Scotland and England and Ireland are known for their Christian savagery. The drug war is supported by good Christians who are responsible for the murder of innocent people whose doors are kicked in at the wrong address during no-knock raids.

 

Need more examples of Christian atrocities, let me know.

Ya see - this is a prime example of the ignorance that you display. Have you spoken to a knowledgable Mormon lately They will tell you that they're NOT CHRISTIAN, but in fact they're MORMON.

 

The RCC has not been orthodox Christian since about 500AD, when they 'Christianized' many pagan gods as saints (by their own admission), and they placed rank political power over the calling to preach the Gospel. So, Northern Ireland & England have indeed been plagued by "intra-necine" atrocities only by the broadest definition of Christianity.

 

And Hitler? puh-leeze! He was driven by Hegel and Nietzche - a well known and attested to truth. By this reasoning - would you also say Saddam Hussein was a devout Sunni Muslim?

 

And just to let you all know - I reject your positing of the "no true Scotsman" idea. The Bible is very clear on how to determine who is a Christian and who is not. Read John's first epistle - it's very clear. And the Bible is replete with warnings and evidences for discerning false teachers and false prophets and false messiahs. Not to mention the prediction that these despicable men will infiltrate the Church for their own devices - but God protects His own.

[centauri]

You assume that you hold the high ground on Christian truth and can judge other Christians as cultists.

You’re quite full of yourself, puffed up would be a good Biblical description.

Anyone that has the nerve to point out the obvious flaws in Christian unity lacks discernment, which you think you possess in abundance.

But I’m not surprised, I’ve seen it in many God-soaked zealots.

You haven’t established which Christians are cultists nor have you proven that they aren’t just as Christian as you think you are.

 

Have I quoted any Scripture out of context? If so, please let me now - I am sincerely open to being instructed. But as far as I know, I have only presented historic orthodox Christianity. Those who are cultists are not usualy difficult to discern - they are generally wrong about the Nature of God, the Nature of Jesus the Messiah, or the doctrine of salvation - just look at those three areas in their teachings.

You’ve repeatedly called the Roman Catholic Church cultists.

Your judgments about other Christian sects are simply speculative subjective assertions.

You haven’t established that the Catholic Church is wrong or that the authority of the Church can be disregarded.

After all these months, you still haven’t established that your musings about the nature of God and salvation are in fact correct.

You’ve repeatedly proclaimed Jesus as being “the Messiah”, without proving it.

Quoting scripture from a self-serving testament isn’t validation.

[centauri]

But you’re stuck with the very real lack of Christian unity that has been going on for hundreds of years. All you’ve done so far is to employ a form of the No True Scotsman fallacy to cover up the divine mess.

 

Acually, all I've done is relate what Jesus and His Apostles said would happen in human history.

 

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray.

Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

Mat 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.

Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

 

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.

 

And I know that you're aware of many other passages that speak of false prophets and teachers - the Pastoral Epistles, Jude, and II Peter are choked full of warnings.

You relate all these verses and what they mean through your subjective perspective.

Catholics can do exactly what you do, proclaim that Protestants are the false teachers Jesus warned about.

The No True Scotsman analogy is alive and well, as you consider yourself to be a True Christian and others are fakers.

They're fakers because they don't conform to your particular views and opinions and that disqualifies them as proper Christians.

[centauri]

It might be through Holy Spirit magic, kind of like hearing voices.

Pat Roberston, Doyle Davidson, John Hagee, Ronnie Floyd, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Oral Roberts have been and are just a few of them.

 

These men are clearly false prophets, false teachers, despicable men - and my heart goes out to anyone who has been deceived and trapped by these wolves in sheep's clothing. The Epistle of Jude rightly characterizes these men you've listed. Judge these men by their fruit in their own lives, they're charismatic cranks.

This is more of the same, it’s your subjective opinion about these men.

Oral Roberts just died.

The Christian radio stations in Tulsa and elsewhere in the U.S. are praising him as a great man of God, and a great spiritual leader that helped make America a God blessed country.

As many of the Christian commentators said, “God was surely working through Oral Roberts”.

If you’re so certain these men are false teachers and cranks, why are you here rather than taking missionary trips to Houston, Plano, Tulsa, and Arkansas warning Christians not to be taken in by these fakers?

If you want to experience Christian love in the heartland of America, I suggest you go to Tulsa and declare Oral Roberts a wolf and a crank.

You'd better have your escape route planned in advance.

 

I snipped the rest of your warning and scripture quoting until you do something more than quote scripture and declare that your version of it is the only correct interpretation.

The men you just judged as fakers and wolves do exactly the same thing you’ve done here.

John Hagee and Kenneth Copeland quote scripture just as much as you do and warn against false teachers.

The Catholic Church has a whole stable of trained Holy Spirit filled clerics that define you as a heretic that has no salvation.

You’re right back to square one.

Nothing has been proven, validated or established regarding your theological speculations being superior to those of other Christian sects or individuals.

Christian disunity is rampant and does nothing to validate the religion as being superior to other belief systems.

[rayskidude]

Merry Christmas, Ray!

 

Phanta

 

Thnx much - and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year back atcha. As they say Merr y christmas in Hawaii; "Mele kalika maka."

 

Or Happy New Year" in Iraqi Kurdistan; "Sale Nuaytan" >> actually it's iterally "Congrats on the New Year"

 

I hope everyone has a great time with family & friends & acquaintances, etc and truly enjoys the merriment of this Christmas season.

[rayskidude]

rayskidude says >> Have I quoted any Scripture out of context? If so, please let me now - I am sincerely open to being instructed. But as far as I know, I have only presented historic orthodox Christianity. Those who are cultists are not usualy difficult to discern - they are generally wrong about the Nature of God, the Nature of Jesus the Messiah, or the doctrine of salvation - just look at those three areas in their teachings.

 

You’ve repeatedly called the Roman Catholic Church cultists.

Your judgments about other Christian sects are simply speculative subjective assertions.

You haven’t established that the Catholic Church is wrong or that the authority of the Church can be disregarded.

After all these months, you still haven’t established that your musings about the nature of God and salvation are in fact correct.

You’ve repeatedly proclaimed Jesus as being “the Messiah”, without proving it.

Quoting scripture from a self-serving testament isn’t validation.

 

Listen, I don't want to be 'Pollyannish' about all this. I recognize that many Christians for the past 2,000 yrs have done terrible things. I have friends - guys that used to be on church staff with me - that impregnated their girlfiend, that had affairs with males and females, church members that essentially ripped me off in business dealings, etc. David, "a man after God's own heart" was guilty of adultery, murder, excessive pride that resulted in many deaths, he was "a man of bloodshed" - so God did not allow him to build the temple, etc.

 

And Jerry Falwell was guilty of rank hypocrisy when he called for commutation of the death sentence of a cold-blooded murderer who made a "jailhouse" conversion. I heard this woman speak - and she said lots of things to indicate she had really become a Christian. But all the more reason to acknowledge that Scripture teaches that civil government has the responsibility for law & order; to include capital punishment. Christians are not, and should not be, exempt from any just punishment according to the law.

 

The Salem witch trials - definitely promulgated by professing Christians (though I would want to study this further). The Inquisition - RCC is a cult, period. Slavery - no doubt many Dutch Reformed church members were guilty of this heinous crime. But also, unchurched businessmen piggy-backed onto Christian endeavors. Witness the German princes who "used & abused" Lutheranism to justify their warfare to get independence from the RCC.

 

My only point is that evangelical Christians haven't been guilty of many atrocities attributed to "Christianity." Example - Dietrich Bonhoffer martyred by the Nazis. In fact, things like the Holocaust, and even the later Crusades to a high degree, were motivated by economic interests. So also our own Civil War. Lincoln was motivated by his desire to preserve the Union, and the North wanted slavery abolished because they thought the South had an economic advantage to be able to use slaves year-round. There were only a few abolitionists motivated by love for their fellow man.

 

Re; the RCC

they are worng about the doctrine of salvation >. Eph 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; Rom chaps 3:20-11:36; and their doctrine of the Lord's Supper is in opposition to Hebrews chaps 9 & 10. They are wrong to insist that good works are a requirement that makes us eligible far salvation. During the debates with Luther, the Catholic theologian John Eck admitted that he could not defeat Luther in debate about salvation - IF Eck had to limit himself to the Bible!!!!

 

Only RCC tradition could support their false doctrine. Not until the Reformation did the RCC incorporate the Apocrypha into their Bible to support indulgences and purgatory. Are you ignoranrt of these facts in church history???

 

Do you actually think indulgences - buying salvation for people in purgatroy - is true Christian doctrine??? How many and what kind of good works do you need to merit salavtion?? Can you tell me??? The RCC cannot.

 

Are you unaware of the centuries of sexual abuses committed by priests? And then these grievous sins were hidden and coverd up by the RCC as they re-assigned these priests to other diocese to abuse other children?? Or that there was once three Popes >> and they all ex-communicated each other? Please let me know the level of your ignorance so I don't waste everybody's time with what you actually know.

 

But as to whether the RCC is a cult?? It's a slam dunk! Unless one chooses to be willfully ignorant.

[centauri]

rayskidude says >> Have I quoted any Scripture out of context? If so, please let me now - I am sincerely open to being instructed. But as far as I know, I have only presented historic orthodox Christianity. Those who are cultists are not usualy difficult to discern - they are generally wrong about the Nature of God, the Nature of Jesus the Messiah, or the doctrine of salvation - just look at those three areas in their teachings.

 

You’ve repeatedly called the Roman Catholic Church cultists.

Your judgments about other Christian sects are simply speculative subjective assertions.

You haven’t established that the Catholic Church is wrong or that the authority of the Church can be disregarded.

After all these months, you still haven’t established that your musings about the nature of God and salvation are in fact correct.

You’ve repeatedly proclaimed Jesus as being “the Messiah”, without proving it.

Quoting scripture from a self-serving testament isn’t validation.

 

Listen, I don't want to be 'Pollyannish' about all this. I recognize that many Christians for the past 2,000 yrs have done terrible things. I have friends - guys that used to be on church staff with me - that impregnated their girlfiend, that had affairs with males and females, church members that essentially ripped me off in business dealings, etc. David, "a man after God's own heart" was guilty of adultery, murder, excessive pride that resulted in many deaths, he was "a man of bloodshed" - so God did not allow him to build the temple, etc.

 

And Jerry Falwell was guilty of rank hypocrisy when he called for commutation of the death sentence of a cold-blooded murderer who made a "jailhouse" conversion. I heard this woman speak - and she said lots of things to indicate she had really become a Christian. But all the more reason to acknowledge that Scripture teaches that civil government has the responsibility for law & order; to include capital punishment. Christians are not, and should not be, exempt from any just punishment according to the law.

 

The Salem witch trials - definitely promulgated by professing Christians (though I would want to study this further). The Inquisition - RCC is a cult, period. Slavery - no doubt many Dutch Reformed church members were guilty of this heinous crime. But also, unchurched businessmen piggy-backed onto Christian endeavors. Witness the German princes who "used & abused" Lutheranism to justify their warfare to get independence from the RCC.

 

My only point is that evangelical Christians haven't been guilty of many atrocities attributed to "Christianity." Example - Dietrich Bonhoffer martyred by the Nazis. In fact, things like the Holocaust, and even the later Crusades to a high degree, were motivated by economic interests. So also our own Civil War. Lincoln was motivated by his desire to preserve the Union, and the North wanted slavery abolished because they thought the South had an economic advantage to be able to use slaves year-round. There were only a few abolitionists motivated by love for their fellow man.

None of this validates your beliefs as being superior to those of other Christian sects that you don’t like.

Any form of Christianity, not simply the Catholics, can be called cults because they all display some of the characteristics found in cults.

You seem to be relying on validation by associating yourself with groups that are “less guilty” than others of committing sins.

[centauri]

Re; the RCC

they are worng about the doctrine of salvation >. Eph 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; Rom chaps 3:20-11:36; and their doctrine of the Lord's Supper is in opposition to Hebrews chaps 9 & 10. They are wrong to insist that good works are a requirement that makes us eligible far salvation. During the debates with Luther, the Catholic theologian John Eck admitted that he could not defeat Luther in debate about salvation - IF Eck had to limit himself to the Bible!!!!

According to Christ and the Bible, salvation does require some good works, so your definition of what’s wrong and right is once again simply your opinion based on your subjective preferences.

Luther did acknowledge the validity of the Catholic Church as an institution.

 

"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."

Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon) A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil, 1522. [This sermon is taken from volume III:254-271 of The Sermons of Martin Luther]

http://www.protestanterrors.com/truechurch.htm

 

Only RCC tradition could support their false doctrine. Not until the Reformation did the RCC incorporate the Apocrypha into their Bible to support indulgences and purgatory. Are you ignoranrt of these facts in church history???

Let’s stick to the issue of salvation and the Catholic Church.

Are you ignorant of the Biblical justification for works being part of salvation???

Catholic commentary:

"Nowhere in the bible does it state faith "alone" justifies, and this new doctrine was not heard of before the 16th century. Why did the Protestant reformers propose it and what authority gave it to them?

Consider the verse, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36.

Are these not examples of good works? Why would Our Lord give them so much emphasis if only faith was of importance?

Consider the verse, "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24.

How much more plain can it be said that faith alone is not enough for our salvation? Consider the verse, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14. And we see several verses later that the answer to this question is NO. Consider the verse, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17. No explanation is needed for this verse!

Consider the verse, "But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith." James 2:18. Another extremely obvious verse that proves our point on the subject.

In summary, justification by faith alone has overwhelming opposition in Scripture. Some Protestants have been known to reference other verses from Scripture in an attempt to show that works are NOT required for our salvation. However if one looks at verses that appear to speak negatively about works, they are clearly referring to works that glorify men and not God. Here we agree;

works done to please men do not help with attaining our salvation.

http://www.protestanterrors.com/#10

Do you actually think indulgences - buying salvation for people in purgatroy - is true Christian doctrine??? How many and what kind of good works do you need to merit salavtion?? Can you tell me??? The RCC cannot.

The issue was if good works were needed at all, not how many were needed.

Works of charity are among the good works as the Catholic commentary showed.

You’ve denied that any good works are required.

[centauri]

Are you unaware of the centuries of sexual abuses committed by priests? And then these grievous sins were hidden and coverd up by the RCC as they re-assigned these priests to other diocese to abuse other children?? Or that there was once three Popes >> and they all ex-communicated each other? Please let me know the level of your ignorance so I don't waste everybody's time with what you actually know.

No, you sure don't want to "waste" anyone's time except when it comes to you making speeches, quoting scripture, and delivering sermons.

You can call others ignorant because you're equipped with a level of puffed-up, self assured, pious certainty that enables you to declare various Christian sects as flatly wrong about certain issues.

You already stated that Christianity on the whole has displayed errors and sins resulting in abusive behavior, it isn’t limited to Catholics.

You still haven't established your preferences as being superior to others.

 

But as to whether the RCC is a cult?? It's a slam dunk! Unless one chooses to be willfully ignorant.

Your definition of ignorance is self-serving.

So many of your “slam dunks” are simply your subjective, personal whims dressed up as absolute certainties.

As I wrote previously, virtually every Christian denomination displays cult characteristics.

The Catholic Church acknowledges flaws:

 

"And lastly, there is no doubt there were problems in the Church before the Reformation. The Church has always had problems in every century and has always been persecuted, as Our Lord told us would be the case. We also see in Scripture that Our Lord said He would be with His Church forever and that it would never fail. Looking at the history of the Church, whenever problems had arisen, the Church, guided by the Holy Ghost, always called together General Councils and corrected the problems. If there were problems in the Church before the Reformation, it was not up to unknown men like Luther and Calvin to try and correct them on their own without any authority when it was well known that the Church had always used General Councils to correct problems for the 1500 years prior.

 

...It must be made clear here that when we refer to the Church not erring, we are referring to the Church not misguiding the faithful with respect to faith and morals, which we are required to hear and know for our salvation. The Church at the same time is also a human society because it consists of human members. This is why scandals, heresies, schisms and sins among its members also arise. These sins are expected with human beings and do not indicate a failure of a divinely founded Church that Our Lord promised would never fail! Did the mission of all the Apostles fail or cease to be because Judas turned to betrayal? Of course not. Christ Himself foretold of these type of problems in Scripture when He spoke parables in Matthew 13 regarding the cockle growing together with the wheat and the net containing good fish and bad fish. Consider the verses, "Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, and gathering together of all kind of fishes. Which, when it was filled, they drew out, and sitting by the shore, they chose out the good into vessels, but the bad they cast forth. So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels shall go out, and shall separate the wicked from among the just." Matthew 13:47-49. In summary, Our Lord said His Church would never fail, yet we clearly see members of His Church making mistakes due to their human natures. These mistakes clearly do not indicate failure of the Church. Again, the Church is equivalent to an army with good and bad soldiers, many of which stray or are killed, but this does not affect the army as a whole. The same applies to the true Church of Christ; it continues unscathed over the gates of hell despite the downfalls of its members."

http://www.protestanterrors.com/#5

 

The Catholics are just as sure of themselves as you are about what salvation is.

That's the crux of the issue and you've done nothing to establish your theological preferences regarding salvation to be any more correct or proper doctrine than the Catholics.

Until you've actually established your opinions as being universal facts, binding on everyone else, you're just another zealot that deems themselves to be an authority on right and wrong belief.