Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity

December 24, 2009

Merry Christmas, Ray!

Phanta

Thnx much - and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year back atcha. As they say Merr y christmas in Hawaii; "Mele kalika maka."

Or Happy New Year" in Iraqi Kurdistan; "Sale Nuaytan" >> actually it's iterally "Congrats on the New Year"

I hope everyone has a great time with family & friends & acquaintances, etc and truly enjoys the merriment of this Christmas season.

Or God Jul as we say here in Sweden (yes, I'm overseas for now and very limited internet access).

"Jul" comes from the Old Norse word "jól," which was a pagan 12-day holiday. Later on, the name was taken into use by the church and public to represent the Christian holiday instead.

It would be interesting to put "jól" back into Jul here.

January 3, 2010

Please, define "cult." And tell me what cultish beliefs and behaviors my Christian circle is guity of.

January 3, 2010

#1 - Marin Luther wasn'r right about everything - and he debated them hotly and condemned them roundly. Why else was the RCC intent on doing him harm? And because Luther recognized the historicity of the RCC does not mean that he acknowledged the legitimacy of their doctrines, the papacy (which he condemned), etc. I mean , what were the 95 theses about - if not a thorough condemnation of RCC abuses and practices. Was he commenting on their recipes for pizza?

Good works are the evidence of an eternal God-given salvation that is already possessed. Scripture is very clear that our salvation is not gained by faith + works, but rather that true faith in Jesus the Messiah as our Savior and LORD will result in good works. Ergo, one who claims to be a Christian will give evidence of that transformation by exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit and good works.

How do you not understand this?

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,

Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Notice here that good works are God's plan for the already saved to perform.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

SO where are the works upon which your salvation is predicated?

Yet in his letter to Titus, Paul admonishes those who are already believers to conduct good works.

Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Tit 3:14 And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

SO RCC & you are completely wong about the place of good works in salvation.

RCC says; faith + works = salvation

Bible says; faith = salvation + good works

January 3, 2010

Well, the RCC admits flawss - how nice. How about admitting gross sexual immorality practiced by the priests? Such that some areas of Europe required priests to have concubines to keep them away from their wives & daughters! Not to mention the recent pedophilia practiced in USA, Canada, and Ireland. How much of God's $$ has the RCC paid out the last 20 years to the victims of sexual abuse? How many billions? Tell me - as you're the expert in RCCism.

And how about RCC heavy-handedness in outlawing Scripture in the vernacular? Or in prohibiting ecomomic activity prior to the Reformation for anyone who crossed them? (Read how the anti-Christ will do similar things re: business in Revelation.) Or how about the Inquisitions in Spain and the Netherlands?

whenever problems had arisen, the Church, guided by the Holy Ghost, always called together General Councils and corrected the problems. If there were problems in the Church before the Reformation, it was not up to unknown men like Luther and Calvin to try and correct them on their own without any authority when it was well known that the Church had always used General Councils to correct problems for the 1500 years prior.

Wow - how self-serving! It's not for unknown men like Luther & Calvin? They were educated in RCC schools - and saw the truth of Scripture - and rightfully abandoned the cultish RCC. And RCC councils? Just look at Trent! Nothing more than a heavy-handed political powerplay!

When do you think the RCC started? And please don't say with Peter (or even any time before around 400AD) because that would just be ignorant. You know there's no data to indicate that Peter was never in Rome, doncha?

you've done nothing to establish your theological preferences regarding salvation to be any more correct or proper doctrine than the Catholics.

Then you're not reading the many Biblical passages I quote.

But I do give kudos to the RCC for being a champion for the unborn. And in this, the evangelicals could have and should hve been more vocal. Hopefully, with the Manhattan Declaration; we will be more vocal and hold officials accountable.

January 4, 2010

Please, define "cult." And tell me what cultish beliefs and behaviors my Christian circle is guity of.

Attributes include:

religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false

idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity: a cult hero

cultural anthropology system of supernatural beliefs: a body of organized practices and beliefs supposed to involve interaction with and control over supernatural powers

The icon of Christianity is an authoritarian god-man and cult leader called “Jesus of Nazareth”, who is supposed to be the center of attention and “lord” over the lives of his subjects, despite being dead for almost 2,000 years, assuming he existed in the first place.

Regardless of sect, the attributes of a cult are present.

January 4, 2010

#1 - Marin Luther wasn'r right about everything - and he debated them hotly and condemned them roundly. Why else was the RCC intent on doing him harm? And because Luther recognized the historicity of the RCC does not mean that he acknowledged the legitimacy of their doctrines, the papacy (which he condemned), etc. I mean , what were the 95 theses about - if not a thorough condemnation of RCC abuses and practices. Was he commenting on their recipes for pizza?

Luther recognized the institution of the Catholic Church as being the true church.

That was the point.

He condemned various things about the Church and was designated a heretic.

If Luther wasn’t right about everything, you’re back to square one, unable to prove that Protestants are any better informed about what true Christianity is than Catholics are.

Good works are the evidence of an eternal God-given salvation that is already possessed. Scripture is very clear that our salvation is not gained by faith + works, but rather that true faith in Jesus the Messiah as our Savior and LORD will result in good works. Ergo, one who claims to be a Christian will give evidence of that transformation by exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit and good works.

What’s true faith? Define exactly what true faith is.

Works are required before salvation is assured.

Works are required because salvation is achieved by doing them.

Repenting is required, belief is required, confession is required, maintaining belief is required, baptism is required, and some good works are required.

These are all works because it requires the convert to take affirmative actions.

Some good works are required for salvation(Matt 25), they don’t automatically happen just because someone has faith and believes Jesus is lord.

How do you not understand this?

<SNIP>

SO RCC & you are completely wong about the place of good works in salvation.

RCC says; faith + works = salvation

Bible says; faith = salvation + good works

The New Testament says that salvation requires repenting, believing, confession of belief, maintaining belief, baptism, and performing some good works.

Faith + works = salvation

Even the Old Testament affirms that repenting and keeping the law provided salvation.

Keeping the law is a work, so you’re inconsistent with both the Old and New Testaments.

You haven’t established anything as being completely wrong.

All you did was cut out every Catholic scriptural citation and commentary I provided earlier, declared them completely wrong, and replaced them with scripture that you like better.

So we’ll do it all over again:

Catholic commentary-

"Consider the verse, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36. Are these not examples of good works?

Why would Our Lord give them so much emphasis if only faith was of importance?

Consider the verses, "And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me." Matt 19:16-21.

Are the above verses not filled with good works? How much more proof from Scripture do we need to show that Our Lord commanded us to do good works for our salvation?

Consider the verse, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. Again here we have more proof that good works are required of us.

Consider the verse, "And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor." 1 Corinthians 3:8.

Again this clearly does NOT refer to faith alone, but to labor, which is works.

Consider the verse, "And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2 (St Paul). What is charity other than helping the needy? Charity is clearly considered among good works. And in the same Chapter we also see the verse, "And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).

This clearly puts charity BEFORE faith, so to say "faith alone" is all that is required of us is clearly contrary to Scripture.

Consider the verse, "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24.

How much more plain can it be said that faith alone is not enough for our salvation?

Consider the verse, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14.

And we see several verses later that the answer to this question is NO.

Consider the verse, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17.

No explanation is needed for this verse!

Consider the verse, "But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith." James 2:18.

Another extremely obvious verse that proves our point on the subject.

Consider the verses, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:20-21. No explanation is needed for these verses.

Consider the verse, "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26.

How can the Protestant reformers claim faith is sufficient when we read a verse like this with such obvious meaning?

And finally consider the verse, "Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election." 2 Peter 1:10

In summary, justification by faith alone has overwhelming opposition in Scripture. Some Protestants have been known to reference other verses from Scripture in an attempt to show that works are NOT required for our salvation. However if one looks at verses that appear to speak negatively about works, they are clearly referring to works that glorify men and not God. Here we agree; works done to please men do not help with attaining our salvation."

January 4, 2010

Well, the RCC admits flawss - how nice. How about admitting gross sexual immorality practiced by the priests? Such that some areas of Europe required priests to have concubines to keep them away from their wives & daughters! Not to mention the recent pedophilia practiced in USA, Canada, and Ireland. How much of God's $$ has the RCC paid out the last 20 years to the victims of sexual abuse? How many billions? Tell me - as you're the expert in RCCism.

When did I declare myself an expert on the Catholic Church?

I'm simply countering some of your anti-Catholic preaching, as there aren't any Catholics here to defend their theology.

The Catholic Church is a very Christian institution, and admits to having flaws.

You’ve also declared several Protestant preachers to be merely wolves and cranks.

It seems the Christian religion is riddled with disunity, fakes, and subjective theology.

You still haven’t established that Protestant theology is in fact superior, which was the actual point I made long ago.

And how about RCC heavy-handedness in outlawing Scripture in the vernacular? Or in prohibiting ecomomic activity prior to the Reformation for anyone who crossed them? (Read how the anti-Christ will do similar things re: business in Revelation.) Or how about the Inquisitions in Spain and the Netherlands?

So are you implying that the Catholic Church is not serving Christ today?

You still haven’t established that Protestant theology is in fact superior, which was the baseline point I made long ago.

centauri:
..."whenever problems had arisen, the Church, guided by the Holy Ghost, always called together General Councils and corrected the problems. If there were problems in the Church before the Reformation, it was not up to unknown men like Luther and Calvin to try and correct them on their own without any authority when it was well known that the Church had always used General Councils to correct problems for the 1500 years prior."

Rayskidude:

Wow - how self-serving! It's not for unknown men like Luther & Calvin? They were educated in RCC schools - and saw the truth of Scripture - and rightfully abandoned the cultish RCC. And RCC councils? Just look at Trent! Nothing more than a heavy-handed political powerplay!

Speaking of self-serving, your disdain and contempt for the authority of the Catholic Church is nothing more than your opinion.

For every wailing critic of Catholic theology, there is a Catholic rebuttal that is just as strident.

I’ll remind you again that according to the Catholic Church, which lays claim to being the true Church, you are a heretic, someone that has fallen away from the faith and taken it upon themselves to create “proper Christianity” according to their own theological whims.

You still haven’t established that Protestant theology is in fact superior, which was the point I made long ago.

When do you think the RCC started? And please don't say with Peter (or even any time before around 400AD) because that would just be ignorant. You know there's no data to indicate that Peter was never in Rome, doncha?

Don’t you mean "ever" instead of never in Rome?

There is no data to indicate Peter was ever in Rome?

According to the Catholics, it’s factual history.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter. Evidence presented here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm

The Catholic Church maintains that Peter was the temporal leader of the true church, which is the Catholic Church, which existed from the time of Jesus.

E-mail the Vatican and tell them they're ignorant.

Then post a copy of it on this forum.

Catholic commentary-

...If one of the churches must be true, it is the Catholic Church since it is clearly the only perpetually existing Christian Church since the time of Christ. The new Protestant churches therefore cannot be called true, but can only be called heretical.

Looking at history one can gather a list of all heresies the Catholic Church has ever fought and condemned, and noting where these heresies were born and died, the Catholic Church still endures perpetually. To those Protestants who would claim the Catholic Church did not exist for a time since the time of Christ, we ask you to name the years in which She didn't exist. In addition we ask, where were all of the Protestant churches even a few hundred years before the Reformation? Please do not attempt to say they were invisible as this cannot be proven. Our answer is, the Protestant churches clearly did not exist before the Reformation and therefore none can be the true Church of Christ.

So once again, it’s merely your anti-Catholic opinions on display.

You still haven’t established your theology as superior to that of the Catholic Church.

centauri:
you've done nothing to establish your theological preferences regarding salvation to be any more correct or proper doctrine than the Catholics.

Rayskidude:

Then you're not reading the many Biblical passages I quote.

Nor are you reading the many passages that Catholics use to defend their faith.

So you’re back to square one, you haven’t established anything in the way of theological certainty.

All you’ve done is state your subjective opinions and provided evidence that Christianity is a subjective theology that can't even come to a unified doctrine on how salvation is accomplished.

January 23, 2010

[quote name='centauri' date='03 January 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1262569667' post='519959'

rayskidude = Good works are the evidence of an eternal God-given salvation that is already possessed. Scripture is very clear that our salvation is not gained by faith + works, but rather that true faith in Jesus the Messiah as our Savior and LORD will result in good works. Ergo, one who claims to be a Christian will give evidence of that transformation by exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit and good works.

What’s true faith? Define exactly what true faith is.
Works are required before salvation is assured.

Works are required because salvation is achieved by doing them.

Repenting is required, belief is required, confession is required, maintaining belief is required, baptism is required, and some good works are required.

These are all works because it requires the convert to take affirmative actions.

Some good works are required for salvation(Matt 25), they don’t automatically happen just because someone has faith and believes Jesus is lord.

True faith recognizes God the Father sent God the Son to die in my place to pay the debt of my sin, thus satisfying God's righteous wrath against sin and removing my guilt and punishment. Upon recognizing this truth - I repent (Greek = metanoia, change of mind) about my status before God, my sinful state, my personal sin - and as I turn from sin I turn to God by faith. The result is that believers are indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, empowered to repent of actual sin and engage in good works from a heart of thanxgiving - not trying to earn salvation.

No works or baptism are requisite to receive God's free gift of salvation. The things you mention are subsequent to salvation - and are the evidence and test of the presence of true salvation. Ergo, if the works are not present, then that shows neither is the salvation present.

Faith + works = salvation

Even the Old Testament affirms that repenting and keeping the law provided salvation.

Keeping the law is a work, so you’re inconsistent with both the Old and New Testaments.

Please go back and read Gen 15:6 and then Romans 4:1-25.

"Consider the verse, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36. Are these not examples of good works? Why would Our Lord give them so much emphasis if only faith was of importance?

Because it is important for Christians to conduct themselves as Christians - and they will. If they do not - then they're not Christians.

Consider the verses, "And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me." Matt 19:16-21.

Are the above verses not filled with good works? How much more proof from Scripture do we need to show that Our Lord commanded us to do good works for our salvation?

Consider the verse, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. Again here we have more proof that good works are required of us.

These are all post-conversion works which prove the validity of faith.

Consider the verse, "And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor." 1 Corinthians 3:8.
Again this clearly does NOT refer to faith alone, but to labor, which is works.

This refers to rewards in heaven received for faithful works as a Christian. Read the context.

Consider the verse, "And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2 (St Paul). What is charity other than helping the needy? Charity is clearly considered among good works. And in the same Chapter we also see the verse, "And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).
This clearly puts charity BEFORE faith, so to say "faith alone" is all that is required of us is clearly contrary to Scripture.

Where do u c here pre-conversion?

Consider the verse, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17.

Yes, for someone to have the same faith as demons - simply knowing facts - is not salvation. Salvation changes the heart to love & serve others. This same principle applies to all that JAMES SAYS RE: GOOD WORKS. Good works are the evidence of true faith - you cannot claim faith if there are not works which accompany. You cannot claim US citizenship in Russia without your passport to prove it.

I appreciate what you're saying. It is paramount that Christians conduct themselves as God has called them to do - but they are able to obey God, because God has saved them by His grace, channeled thru their faith, to live holy lives.

January 23, 2010

Rayskidude-from Jan 23,2010

centauri:

What’s true faith? Define exactly what true faith is.

Works are required before salvation is assured.

Works are required because salvation is achieved by doing them.

Repenting is required, belief is required, confession is required, maintaining belief is required, baptism is required, and some good works are required.

These are all works because it requires the convert to take affirmative actions.

Some good works are required for salvation(Matt 25), they don’t automatically happen just because someone has faith and believes Jesus is lord.

Rayskidude:

True faith recognizes God the Father sent God the Son to die in my place to pay the debt of my sin, thus satisfying God's righteous wrath against sin and removing my guilt and punishment.

The problem is that your version of true faith isn’t completely consistent with the entire Bible, it’s consistent with your preferred doctrine.

It may be your truth, but it’s also just your opinion.

That’s why all the preaching in the world doesn’t ever establish anything.

No works or baptism are requisite to receive God's free gift of salvation.

This is inconsistent with scripture and misuses the word “free”.

Scripture declares that some works are needed for salvation, and that includes water baptism.

Repenting is a work, confessing is a work, water baptism is a work.

None of these things happen automatically and if they aren’t done, there is no salvation imputed.

Nothing is received for free.

Free means without charge.

Even your version of salvation isn’t free because it still requires something in return for the gift.

Christian salvation is conditional and based on an ultimatum, where salvation is exchanged for worship.

The things you mention are subsequent to salvation - and are the evidence and test of the presence of true salvation. Ergo, if the works are not present, then that shows neither is the salvation present.

According to scripture they’re required in order to provide salvation.

Works are required before salvation is assured.

Works are required because salvation is achieved by doing them.

If you don’t perform them, then your salvation isn’t binding in the first place.

Salvation has a procedure and is a process.

Believing and repenting are done right from the start, these are not actions “subsequent to salvation”.

Confessing is done at the beginning of the salvation process along with water baptism.

Maintaining belief is an on-going work.

Works of charity are also done later, but all of these are needed to ensure salvation.

centauri:

Faith + works = salvation

Even the Old Testament affirms that repenting and keeping the law provided salvation.

Keeping the law is a work, so you’re inconsistent with both the Old and New Testaments.

Rayskidude:

Please go back and read Gen 15:6 and then Romans 4:1-25.

I’ve read them many times and it doesn’t solve the dilemma you’ve created for yourself.

Salvation is achieved through repenting and obedience to the law(Ezek 18:20-27).

These are works and each person can do this for themselves.

In Romans 4, Paul wants to promote his new religion, which revolves around faith in a human sacrifice, as being superior to the existing “faulty” religion.

He conveniently neglects to point out that it was a combination of faith + works on the part of Abraham that resulted in God blessing him and recognizing him as righteous.

Gen 26: 4-5

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It’s faith and works that provide salvation, not faith alone.

January 23, 2010

Rayskidude-from Jan 23,2010

centauri:

"Consider the verse, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36. Are these not examples of good works? Why would Our Lord give them so much emphasis if only faith was of importance?

Rayskidude:

Because it is important for Christians to conduct themselves as Christians - and they will. If they do not - then they're not Christians.

And if they fail to perform the required tasks, their potential salvation is nullified.

They must perform certain works, such as charity, in order for their salvation to be valid.

centauri:

Consider the verses, "And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me." Matt 19:16-21.

Are the above verses not filled with good works? How much more proof from Scripture do we need to show that Our Lord commanded us to do good works for our salvation?

Consider the verse, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. Again here we have more proof that good works are required of us.

Rayskidude:

These are all post-conversion works which prove the validity of faith.

Matt 16:27 may be “post-conversion” but Matt 19:16-21 isn’t because everlasting life is predicated on performance.

The validity of the faith and the presence of salvation is established by works, which include repenting, confessing, water baptism, acts of charity, and maintaining belief.

Incomplete faith doesn’t save anyone.

centauri:

Consider the verse, "And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2 (St Paul).

What is charity other than helping the needy? Charity is clearly considered among good works. And in the same Chapter we also see the verse, "And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).

This clearly puts charity BEFORE faith, so to say "faith alone" is all that is required of us is clearly contrary to Scripture.

Rayskidude:

Where do u c here pre-conversion?

There is no “pre-conversion” involved, Paul was already converted as were the Corinthians.

Conversion is meaningless if it’s incomplete and lacking in the required elements, which include charity, which is declared to be of supreme importance.

centauri:

Consider the verse, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17.

Rayskidude:

Yes, for someone to have the same faith as demons - simply knowing facts - is not salvation. Salvation changes the heart to love & serve others. This same principle applies to all that JAMES SAYS RE: GOOD WORKS. Good works are the evidence of true faith - you cannot claim faith if there are not works which accompany. You cannot claim US citizenship in Russia without your passport to prove it.

Works are more than evidence of a claim, they’re required for the claim to be activated and valid as a vehicle for salvation.

If true faith cannot be claimed without good works, neither can salvation be claimed.

"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26.

It is paramount that Christians conduct themselves as God has called them to do - but they are able to obey God, because God has saved them by His grace, channeled thru their faith, to live holy lives.

In a predestination scenario that would be true, but I'm assuming you're a "free will" advocate.

And if that's the case, then obedience begins before they are saved.

The act of believing is obedience, and that takes place prior to God bestowing grace on someone.

The command is to believe and be saved, not be saved so that you'll be able to believe.

In any case, the phrases "obey God" and "live holy lives" are subjective, and are defined by the believer, not by an outside entity.

January 26, 2010

centauri:
And if they fail to perform the required tasks, their potential salvation is nullified.

They must perform certain works, such as charity, in order for their salvation to be valid.

No - if they don't give evidence of the fruit of the Spirit, then they have not been born of the Spirit. And then, yes, their faith is shown to be invalid, not a saving faith - but rather a faith akin to that of the demons, in which factual doctrines are acknowledged, but there's no commitment from the heart.

The NT likens salvation to marriage - for good reason. I can say I love a woman with all my heart and say I want to live with her, provide for her, protect her, raise a family with her, be forever enthralled by her love; and I can even date her seriously& exclusively and lavish gifts upon her; but not until I promise to love, cherish, nourish etc in a wedding ceremony before many witnesses - and then follow that up with living out my vows for all the years God gives us - that shows the genuineness of my love. Then actions flow from the love.

This same principle holds true re: salvation. We can say all we want, but the life lived in faithful worship, service, love, etc shows the actuality of the faith. The actions flow from the love & faith.

Conversion is meaningless if it’s incomplete and lacking in the required elements, which include charity, which is declared to be of supreme importance.

Yes, because real conversion would be proven by the reality of the charity.

In a predestination scenario that would be true, but I'm assuming you're a "free will" advocate. And if that's the case, then obedience begins before they are saved.

Actually, I believe very strongly in predestination - because that is what Scripture teaches.

The act of believing is obedience, and that takes place prior to God bestowing grace on someone.

Please read Ephesians chap 2 :1-10 - and record the sequence of events. Tell me what you fins.

Believing in Jesus as Messiah, LORD, & Savior is called by Paul - "the obedience of faith" >> it is obeying God, in that God has called us to have faith in His Son, and thereby to receive our free salvation - which cost God His Son. And when faith is real - so are the fruits of that faith. If there are no fruits - that shows there is no faith.

January 26, 2010

centauri:
In a predestination scenario that would be true, but I'm assuming you're a "free will" advocate. And if that's the case, then obedience begins before they are saved.

Actually, I believe very strongly in predestination - because that is what Scripture teaches.

Ok, that changes things quite a bit.

Most Christians I've encountered reject predestination.

I assume your position is that people are pre-programmed to perform the required works that ensure proper faith and salvation.

centauri:

The act of believing is obedience, and that takes place prior to God bestowing grace on someone.

Please read Ephesians chap 2 :1-10 - and record the sequence of events. Tell me what you fins.

Believing in Jesus as Messiah, LORD, & Savior is called by Paul - "the obedience of faith" >> it is obeying God, in that God has called us to have faith in His Son, and thereby to receive our free salvation - which cost God His Son. And when faith is real - so are the fruits of that faith. If there are no fruits - that shows there is no faith.

The statement in Eph 2:8-9 only holds if everything regarding salvation is predestined, which is what Eph 1 confirms.

People are already programmed to either accept it or reject it and proper faith is already pre-programmed into those that are supposed to have it.

However, if everything pertaining to salvation is predestined, then there is no point in preaching the Gospel.

January 28, 2010

Most Christians I've encountered reject predestination. I assume your position is that people are pre-programmed to perform the required works that ensure proper faith and salvation.

well, somewhat. God has in eternity past chosen some to believe - however, this does not absolve man of his responsibility. The facts of God's sovreignty in all things, while also acknowledging Man's responsibility seems like mutually exclusive to us. JI Packer has stated that these truths constitute an "antinomy" - two truths which seem contradictory, but are both actually true. Example from science - light is a wave and a particle.

So though we in our finiteness cannot understand how these can be compatible truths - yet God with His infinite understanding, can have both these truths cooperate. SO, each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel, and to the general revelation of Creation.

Christians are also responsible for whether they obey or disobey God - God has prepared good works for believers to accomplish (as did Jesus the Messiah - see John 17:4), but the believers must apply themselves to do the things God has called them to do.

Please read Ephesians chap 2 :1-10 - and record the sequence of events. Tell me what you fins.

The statement in Eph 2:8-9 only holds if everything regarding salvation is predestined, which is what Eph 1 confirms. People are already programmed to either accept it or reject it and proper faith is already pre-programmed into those that are supposed to have it.

There is a reason I asked you to look at Eph 2:1-10 >> so please go thru that passage and see the flow of conversion, list out the sequence you see and tell me what Scripture teaches re: salvation.

However, if everything pertaining to salvation is predestined, then there is no point in preaching the Gospel.

Not really. As God has predestined salvation - He has also predestined the means of salvation. Apart from the Person & ministry of Jesus our LORD & Savior - there is no possibility of salvation. And apart from the hearing and believing the Gospel - there is no possibility for salvation. Read Paul's flow of doctrine in Romans chaps 1-10. Why was Paul so eager and insistent on the need to preach the Gospel - if preaching isn't necessary?

January 28, 2010

Most Christians I've encountered reject predestination. I assume your position is that people are pre-programmed to perform the required works that ensure proper faith and salvation.

well, somewhat. God has in eternity past chosen some to believe - however, this does not absolve man of his responsibility. The facts of God's sovreignty in all things, while also acknowledging Man's responsibility seems like mutually exclusive to us. JI Packer has stated that these truths constitute an "antinomy" - two truths which seem contradictory, but are both actually true. Example from science - light is a wave and a particle.

So though we in our finiteness cannot understand how these can be compatible truths - yet God with His infinite understanding, can have both these truths cooperate. SO, each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel, and to the general revelation of Creation.

You've created a hybrid system where both personal responsibility and a sovereign will are in effect at the same time.

You go on to assert that although this cannot be understood by the human mind, it represents reality.

Then you assert that each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel.

If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

Christians are also responsible for whether they obey or disobey God - God has prepared good works for believers to accomplish (as did Jesus the Messiah - see John 17:4), but the believers must apply themselves to do the things God has called them to do.

If they are predestined to believe, then they aren’t responsible for having that belief.

That was determined in advance by God, it’s not their responsibility, nor a result of their actions.

Your version of predestination waters it down to create a system of partial predestination, with full personal responsibility at the same time.

The script for Jesus was already written, just as it was for someone to play the part of Pharaoh and Judas.

The will of Pharaoh was at least partially manipulated to ensure certain actions on his part.

The mandate to fulfill scripture drives the actions of the actors on the stage.

centauri:
However, if everything pertaining to salvation is predestined, then there is no point in preaching the Gospel.

Not really. As God has predestined salvation - He has also predestined the means of salvation.

Claiming that God predestined an overall means or plan for salvation isn’t the same as claiming individual people are predestined to believe.

The original problem remains.

If people are personally responsible for performing all of the actions needed for salvation, and are not predestined and programmed by God to carry them out, then those actions are works and are required along with faith.

Apart from the Person & ministry of Jesus our LORD & Savior - there is no possibility of salvation.

And apart from the hearing and believing the Gospel - there is no possibility for salvation.

Not true according to the Bible.

May 30, 2010

'rayskidude' date='28 January 2010 - 07:41 AM' timestamp='1264682504' post='526287']

well, somewhat. God has in eternity past chosen some to believe - however, this does not absolve man of his responsibility. The facts of God's sovreignty in all things, while also acknowledging Man's responsibility seems like mutually exclusive to us. JI Packer has stated that these truths constitute an "antinomy" - two truths which seem contradictory, but are both actually true. Example from science - light is a wave and a particle.

You've created a hybrid system where both personal responsibility and a sovereign will are in effect at the same time.
You go on to assert that although this cannot be understood by the human mind, it represents reality.

Then you assert that each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel.

If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

No -what I have told you is Bible doctrine. God is sovereign and man is responsible. This is a mystery, and though these seem mutually exclusive to the finite human mind - that is not the case with the Author of Scripture, the God of the universe.

We just need to follow that which God has revealed about Himself, His Creation, our human nature, etc.

If they are predestined to believe, then they aren’t responsible for having that belief.
That was determined in advance by God, it’s not their responsibility, nor a result of their actions.

Your version of predestination waters it down to create a system of partial predestination, with full personal responsibility at the same time.

The script for Jesus was already written, just as it was for someone to play the part of Pharaoh and Judas.

The will of Pharaoh was at least partially manipulated to ensure certain actions on his part.

The mandate to fulfill scripture drives the actions of the actors on the stage.

Yes, but the actors fulfill the Scriptures willingly - without coercion. Do you willfully not believe - or are you constrained by an alien force? My guess is you believe that you have free will to choose to believe and act in a manner you see as best.

That is true for just about everyone (Muslims are fatalistic - "insha allah" = if the god wills). We all act this 'free' way, but God has also ordained many things to occur. SO God's sovereignty and man's responsibility work in conjunction to accomplish God's purposes. And this is a profound Christian mystery.

centauri:
However, if everything pertaining to salvation is predestined, then there is no point in preaching the Gospel.

rayskidude >> Not really. As God has predestined salvation - He has also predestined the means of salvation.

Claiming that God predestined an overall means or plan for salvation isn’t the same as claiming individual people are predestined to believe. The original problem remains. If people are personally responsible for performing all of the actions needed for salvation, and are not predestined and programmed by God to carry them out, then those actions are works and are required along with faith

Faith is required - yes. But salvation that is acquired thru faith is granted by grace. A humble prayer to receive mercy is not a meritorious work of the Law.

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector >> Luke 18

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 18:9–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did the tax-collector do to become justified?

Luke 23 >>

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Death of Jesus

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 23:39–44). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did this criminal do to deserve Paradise?

Apart from the Person & ministry of Jesus the Messiah, our LORD & Savior - there is no possibility of salvation.

And apart from the hearing and believing the Gospel of Christ - there is no possibility for salvation.

Not true according to the Bible.

What Bible are you reading? See Acts 4:13 and Romans 10:9-18.

May 30, 2010

'rayskidude' date='28 January 2010 - 07:41 AM' timestamp='1264682504' post='526287']

well, somewhat. God has in eternity past chosen some to believe - however, this does not absolve man of his responsibility. The facts of God's sovreignty in all things, while also acknowledging Man's responsibility seems like mutually exclusive to us. JI Packer has stated that these truths constitute an "antinomy" - two truths which seem contradictory, but are both actually true. Example from science - light is a wave and a particle.

You've created a hybrid system where both personal responsibility and a sovereign will are in effect at the same time.
You go on to assert that although this cannot be understood by the human mind, it represents reality.

Then you assert that each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel.

If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

No -what I have told you is Bible doctrine. God is sovereign and man is responsible. This is a mystery, and though these seem mutually exclusive to the finite human mind - that is not the case with the Author of Scripture, the God of the universe.

You’re engaging in double talk here, ignoring what scripture states about God working out all things according to his will.

You then invoke the word “mystery” and “doctrine” to obscure the conundrum you’ve created for yourself.

The fact is you cannot explain your way out of the following:

If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

Since you cannot rationally reconcile the problem, you call it a mystery.

Naturally, you think you understand the mystery even though you cannot validate it as actually being correct or even existing.

centauri:
If they are predestined to believe, then they aren’t responsible for having that belief.

That was determined in advance by God, it’s not their responsibility, nor a result of their actions.

Your version of predestination waters it down to create a system of partial predestination, with full personal responsibility at the same time.

The script for Jesus was already written, just as it was for someone to play the part of Pharaoh and Judas.

The will of Pharaoh was at least partially manipulated to ensure certain actions on his part.

The mandate to fulfill scripture drives the actions of the actors on the stage.

Yes, but the actors fulfill the Scriptures willingly - without coercion. Do you willfully not believe - or are you constrained by an alien force? My guess is you believe that you have free will to choose to believe and act in a manner you see as best.

How do you know the actors on the stage always fulfill the scriptures willingly and without coercion?

If the King of Heshbon and Pharaoh were willingly going to do what God wanted done, there wouldn’t have been any need to manipulate them in the first place.

There would be no need for God to send strong delusion to people to ensure that they did what he wanted.

Manipulation is coercion.

I have no certainty that I have free will.

All of life could be scripted, there’s no way for me to know that at this time.

That is true for just about everyone (Muslims are fatalistic - "insha allah" = if the god wills). We all act this 'free' way, but God has also ordained many things to occur. SO God's sovereignty and man's responsibility work in conjunction to accomplish God's purposes. And this is a profound Christian mystery.

And you have no idea how many of your (or anyone’s) actions are predestined and how many depend on so-called “free will”.

You’re simply labeling it a profound mystery and hoping for the best, speculating that you possess a proper understanding of it.

May 30, 2010

centauri:
However, if everything pertaining to salvation is predestined, then there is no point in preaching the Gospel.

rayskidude >> Not really. As God has predestined salvation - He has also predestined the means of salvation.

centauri:
Claiming that God predestined an overall means or plan for salvation isn’t the same as claiming individual people are predestined to believe. The original problem remains. If people are personally responsible for performing all of the actions needed for salvation, and are not predestined and programmed by God to carry them out, then those actions are works and are required along with faith

Faith is required - yes. But salvation that is acquired thru faith is granted by grace. A humble prayer to receive mercy is not a meritorious work of the Law.

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector >> Luke 18

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 18:9–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did the tax-collector do to become justified?

If the tax-collector didn’t do at least some good works, such as charity, then he isn’t saved and ends up in the eternal fire.

Jesus declared that in Matt 25:41-46.

Baptism is also a work.

Was the tax-collector baptized as instructed in the New Testament?

If not, then his salvation is not assured.

Luke 23 >>

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Death of Jesus

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 23:39–44). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did this criminal do to deserve Paradise?

Unless Jesus has multiple standards for salvation, where he plays favorites and allows some people to slide through the system without doing anything, the criminal wasn’t saved.

But God isn’t supposed to play favorites and his standards are supposed to be absolute, not based on situation.

The system you’re promoting would be based on fluctuating standards where the rules are not uniform but are instead relative, driven by situation.

Apart from the Person & ministry of Jesus the Messiah, our LORD & Savior - there is no possibility of salvation.

And apart from the hearing and believing the Gospel of Christ - there is no possibility for salvation.

centauri:
Not true according to the Bible.

What Bible are you reading? See Acts 4:13 and Romans 10:9-18.

I’m reading the parts of the Bible you ignore or toss out as irrelevant, specifically Ezek 18:20-28.

Each person dies for their own sins and saves themselves by repenting and obeying God.

There is no need whatsoever for Jesus.

This recipe for salvation was given long before Christianity came along and claimed the rules had been changed.

May 31, 2010

[quote name='centauri' date='30 May 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1275262324' post='568186'

You've created a hybrid system where both personal responsibility and a sovereign will are in effect at the same time.

You go on to assert that although this cannot be understood by the human mind, it represents reality.

It is not a hybrid system - it simply acknowledges two truths exist together that seem to be mutually exclusive. Such as light is both a wave and a particle. This fact of light cannot be understood - so I guess that in your system - the nature of light is not reality. Wow - what a cogent system; if my finite mind cannot comprehend a truth, that truth is not truth.

Then you assert that each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel.
If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

God is sovereign and HE is the great playwright of the universe - and every person in the play acts out their part willingly. And you say that you cannot understand this simple truth?

The predestination of God works through willing participants; and thus they are responsible for how they conduct themselves.

And because I admit that there is mystery in this Bible doctrine - you possess the enormous wisdom and insight to pronounce that it is not reality.

Do you fully comprehend all the actions of those around you? Does that make those actions less real? Or do you admit that many things people do (esp how they drive) is a mystery to you - and also reality, nonetheless?

What you state is simply incorrect. I never said that we're 'completely' responsible; I have stated that we are responsible to the extent we are accountable for what we believe and do. Only God is completely responsible for only God is completely free and independent of any and all influence outside of Himself (this is the aseity of God).

However, we are bounded by our sin nature. We are free moral agents with the ability to choose various actions - but those actions are constrained by our nature. Therefore, we cannot breath underwater - because we have lungs, not gills. And as a fish can swim anywhere in the aquarium - being bound by its borders - so we can choose any path - but we're bound in our choices by our sin nature.

Spiritually, we are dead in sin, being separated from God. As such, we are unable to move toward God without Him initiating that desire in us. And God does many things; He chooses us, and He draw us to Himself; some respond to God as He draws them, while others do not. Are we completely responsible for exercising faith in God - NO. We responded to all the work that God was doing to convict us of our unbelief and to draw us graciously to Himself.

When we reject God; are we completely responsible - NO. We have been influenced by others or by circumstances; and by our desire to live as we see fit. But we have sufficient responsibility to be held accountable for our unbelief.

Since you cannot rationally reconcile the problem, you call it a mystery.
Naturally, you think you understand the mystery even though you cannot validate it as actually being correct or even existing.

As I said - I have reconciled this issue - you're the one who cannot understand. Because something is a mystery, you think it doesn't exist, it isn't real?

And - I reject that God manipulates; He doesn't need to. How do you know what God does & does not need to do to accomplish His purposes - are you more wise than God? Are you sure that God does not use indirect means such as a delusion or strong influence by an angel to move them to act willingly?

I have no certainty that I have free will.
All of life could be scripted, there’s no way for me to know that at this time.

Do you absolve yourself of responsibility when you sin? After all; it's not your fault - it's God's fault. Or it's the fault of your personal biochemistry.

May 31, 2010

rayskidude says >>

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector >> Luke 18

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 18:9–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did the tax-collector do to become justified?

centauri says >> If the tax-collector didn’t do at least some good works, such as charity, then he isn’t saved and ends up in the eternal fire.

Jesus declared that in Matt 25:41-46.

Baptism is also a work.

Was the tax-collector baptized as instructed in the New Testament?

If not, then his salvation is not assured.

Then you disagree with Jesus the Messiah - who pronounced this tax collector as justified. You are following Catholic heresy of faith + works = salvation.

Luke 23 >>
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Death of Jesus

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 23:39–44). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did this criminal do to deserve Paradise?

centauri says; Unless Jesus has multiple standards for salvation, where he plays favorites and allows some people to slide through the system without doing anything, the criminal wasn’t saved.

But God isn’t supposed to play favorites and his standards are supposed to be absolute, not based on situation.

The system you’re promoting would be based on fluctuating standards where the rules are not uniform but are instead relative, driven by situation.

Wow - so you think that Jesus has multiple standards for salvation - yet I've shown two clear instances of salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone as taught in the Bible alone. Please read the Gospel of John, as see what Jesus says about faith and works re: salvation.

I’m reading the parts of the Bible you ignore or toss out as irrelevant, specifically Ezek 18:20-28.

Each person dies for their own sins and saves themselves by repenting and obeying God.

There is no need whatsoever for Jesus.

This recipe for salvation was given long before Christianity came along and claimed the rules had been changed.

You are welcome to pursue salvation by any means you choose - and you have chosen the same as Jews, Catholics, mainline Protestants, Muslims, etc - to achieve salvation thru your good works. But you have ignored the clear teaching of God from Gen 3:15 - the protoevangelum - all thru John, Romans, Galatians, etc.to Revelation.

The Compassion of the LORD

55 “Come, everyone who thirsts,

come to the waters;

and he who has no money,

come, buy and eat!

Come, buy wine and milk

without money and without price.

2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,

and your labor for that which does not satisfy?

Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good,

and delight yourselves in rich food.

3 Incline your ear, and come to me;

hear, that your soul may live;

and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,

my steadfast, sure love for David.

4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples,

a leader and commander for the peoples.

5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know,

and a nation that did not know you shall run to you,

because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel,

for he has glorified you.

6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;

call upon him while he is near;

7 let the wicked forsake his way,

and the unrighteous man his thoughts;

let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,

and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Is 55:1–9). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Revelation chap 22

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Re 22:16–19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

The Bible is consistent - we receive God's salvation without cost to us - by grace thru faith in Jesus the Christ.

May 31, 2010

So the question as I understand it is: do you have three imaginary friends or three imaginary friends wrapped into one imaginary friend. Am I missing anything?

May 31, 2010

centauri:

You've created a hybrid system where both personal responsibility and a sovereign will are in effect at the same time.

You go on to assert that although this cannot be understood by the human mind, it represents reality.

It is not a hybrid system - it simply acknowledges two truths exist together that seem to be mutually exclusive. Such as light is both a wave and a particle. This fact of light cannot be understood - so I guess that in your system - the nature of light is not reality. Wow - what a cogent system; if my finite mind cannot comprehend a truth, that truth is not truth.

It is a hybrid system because you mix two systems and cannot reconcile them without defining them as a mystery.

You still haven’t done a thing to establish that your version of reality, which includes your version of “God", is valid.

centauri:
Then you assert that each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel.

If a person is predestined by God to believe and perform certain works, then they are not responsible for those particular actions.

Their script was written before they were born.

Even if they were predestined to perform only one of the tasks required for salvation, and not necessarily all of them, it cannot be claimed that they are completely responsible for their decisions.

God is sovereign and HE is the great playwright of the universe - and every person in the play acts out their part willingly. And you say that you cannot understand this simple truth?

The predestination of God works through willing participants; and thus they are responsible for how they conduct themselves.

And because I admit that there is mystery in this Bible doctrine - you possess the enormous wisdom and insight to pronounce that it is not reality.

My wisdom pales in light of your enormous insights into everything having to do with “God”.

However, I’m not the one constantly claiming that my version of reality is binding on all others.

That’s your agenda, not mine.

You’re the one that pronounces and insists that everyone needs to play in your theological sandbox if they want to be saved.

You simply assume that your theological whims are valid and then label them as simple “truth”.

Do you fully comprehend all the actions of those around you? Does that make those actions less real? Or do you admit that many things people do (esp how they drive) is a mystery to you - and also reality, nonetheless?

So when a child turns on a night light when they sleep because they say a monster is hiding under their bed, do you admit that the monster is real?

What you state is simply incorrect. I never said that we're 'completely' responsible; I have stated that we are responsible to the extent we are accountable for what we believe and do.

A sovereign God that works all things according to his will leaves you little wiggle room to be in any position to determine how much responsibility anyone has regarding what they believe or do.

Your quote:

each person is completely responsible for how they respond to the Gospel, and to the general revelation of Creation.

You can’t prove how much a person is accountable because your sacred scripture states that God works all things to conform to his will, even to the point of predestining some people to be believers.

It has nothing to do with their own responsibility because their script was written for them.

May 31, 2010

...Only God is completely responsible for only God is completely free and independent of any and all influence outside of Himself (this is the aseity of God).

However, we are bounded by our sin nature. We are free moral agents with the ability to choose various actions - but those actions are constrained by our nature. Therefore, we cannot breath underwater - because we have lungs, not gills. And as a fish can swim anywhere in the aquarium - being bound by its borders - so we can choose any path - but we're bound in our choices by our sin nature.

If you take the Bible seriously, you cannot make any such proclamation about everyone being free moral agents.

According to the Bible, God not only manipulates human behavior to make people engage in certain actions, he predestines some people to a particular path.

When we reject God; are we completely responsible - NO. We have been influenced by others or by circumstances; and by our desire to live as we see fit. But we have sufficient responsibility to be held accountable for our unbelief.

This is a theological scenario based on wishful thinking and a vague application of the phrase "sufficient responsibility".

Since it’s a scriptural fact that God predestines some people to be saved, he can just as easily predestine others to damnation.

Predestine means to determine or fix things in advance, and as scripture confirms, God predestines all things according to his will and purpose, not having to conform to anyone else’s desires.

centauri:
Since you cannot rationally reconcile the problem, you call it a mystery.

Naturally, you think you understand the mystery even though you cannot validate it as actually being correct or even existing.

As I said - I have reconciled this issue - you're the one who cannot understand. Because something is a mystery, you think it doesn't exist, it isn't real?

If it’s a real mystery, then you’re in no position to make any sweeping assertions about it.

You’ve reconciled the issue by saying it’s a mystery, but that doesn’t stop you from claiming your understandings of this mystery are correct.

It's not really a mystery to you because you assign characteristics to the mystery that conform to your whims and wishful thinking.

The rationalization process makes it all work out in your mind.

Like so many aspiring preachers, you deem yourself to have superior understanding of all things related to “God”.

Then you proceed to tell me I cannot understand what is so obvious for your enlightened mind to comprehend.

And - I reject that God manipulates; He doesn't need to. How do you know what God does & does not need to do to accomplish His purposes - are you more wise than God?

The Bible tells me so.

Predestination is a form of manipulation, as is deliberately interceding with a person’s thoughts and emotions in order to make them respond and take a particular action.

If God didn’t need to engage in manipulation, then the Bible wouldn’t clearly show that he does.

Just because you reject the scripture that says he does manipulate people doesn’t make the manipulation go away.

Are you sure that God does not use indirect means such as a delusion or strong influence by an angel to move them to act willingly?

If that's true then you've just undermined your earlier claim that people are responsible for their choices concerning God.

Manipulation is coercion regardless of the motive for doing it.

centauri:
I have no certainty that I have free will.

All of life could be scripted, there’s no way for me to know that at this time.

Do you absolve yourself of responsibility when you sin? After all; it's not your fault - it's God's fault. Or it's the fault of your personal biochemistry.

That depends on how much of life is scripted.

I already stated I don’t know how much might be scripted.

Your scriptures give ample evidence that “God” predestines some behavior and interferes with human behavior when it suits his needs.

You can't determine how much might be programmed in advance by God or to what degree.

You're drawing imaginary lines in the sand, thinking that "God" won't cross over the lines that you establish as proper.

May 31, 2010

rayskidude says >>

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector >> Luke 18

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 18:9–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did the tax-collector do to become justified?

centauri says >>

If the tax-collector didn’t do at least some good works, such as charity, then he isn’t saved and ends up in the eternal fire.

Jesus declared that in Matt 25:41-46.

Baptism is also a work.

Was the tax-collector baptized as instructed in the New Testament?

If not, then his salvation is not assured.

Then you disagree with Jesus the Messiah - who pronounced this tax collector as justified. You are following Catholic heresy of faith + works = salvation.

First of all, Jesus wasn’t a king messiah, that’s simply another preaching point that you enjoy repeating ad nauseam in these forums.

It’s not my problem that Jesus and his apostles gave conflicting messages about salvation.

Your claims about Catholic heresy are vapid and empty.

If Christianity cannot even agree on the nature of salvation after 2,000 years, that’s also not my problem.

We went through that exercise over 4 months ago, complete with numerous Catholic citations to back up their doctrine on salvation, which you waved away as irrelevant.

However, you haven’t established that the Catholics are wrong, you can only assert that you have a superior understanding that authorizes you to call them heretics.

Naturally, you ignore the fact that they have designated you to be the heretic and you have no salvation when you disrespect and disparage the Catholic Church.

When Christian lunatics get their act together instead of contradicting each other, then you’ll be in a much better position to preach to people on an ex-Christian forum.

Luke 23 >>
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Death of Jesus

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 23:39–44). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What good works did this criminal do to deserve Paradise?

centauri says; Unless Jesus has multiple standards for salvation, where he plays favorites and allows some people to slide through the system without doing anything, the criminal wasn’t saved.

But God isn’t supposed to play favorites and his standards are supposed to be absolute, not based on situation.

The system you’re promoting would be based on fluctuating standards where the rules are not uniform but are instead relative, driven by situation.

Wow - so you think that Jesus has multiple standards for salvation - yet I've shown two clear instances of salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone as taught in the Bible alone. Please read the Gospel of John, as see what Jesus says about faith and works re: salvation.

The Bible indicates Jesus has multiple systems for salvation and Christianity confirms it.

This thread gave evidence for that many months ago.

Christian sects cannot agree on something as basic as salvation.

And just like you did 4 months ago, you’ve completely ignored the instructions that Jesus gave in Matt 25:41-46, completely ignored the instructions for baptism, dismissed James as irrelevant, and smeared the Catholics by calling them heretics.

Your superior truth is little more than personal speculation and wishful thinking all dressed up as holy, enlightened understanding.

centauri:

I’m reading the parts of the Bible you ignore or toss out as irrelevant, specifically Ezek 18:20-28.

Each person dies for their own sins and saves themselves by repenting and obeying God.

There is no need whatsoever for Jesus.

This recipe for salvation was given long before Christianity came along and claimed the rules had been changed.

You are welcome to pursue salvation by any means you choose - and you have chosen the same as Jews, Catholics, mainline Protestants, Muslims, etc - to achieve salvation thru your good works. But you have ignored the clear teaching of God from Gen 3:15 - the protoevangelum - all thru John, Romans, Galatians, etc.to Revelation.

I’m agnostic and do not align myself with any of these established religious groups.

I have chosen to point out the obvious.

You deem yourself to have a superior understanding, which is exactly what every Christian sect claims to possess.

However, you haven’t done anything to validate your theological musings and preaching as valid or binding on anyone.

The Bible is consistent - we receive God's salvation without cost to us - by grace thru faith in Jesus the Christ.

It’s consistently inconsistent, which is evidenced by the manifestation of Christianity and the completely different recipes for salvation between Jews and Christians.

Pumping your favorite talking points over and over doesn’t make them true.

Imagining that you have some sort of superior truth is not the same as proving that you actually have it.

You’ve also managed to yet again ignore that there is a system of salvation defined in the Bible that has nothing to do with faith in a dead and risen god-man.

Jesus is nowhere in that equation.

You can sit there and deny it until you’re blue in the face, but that doesn’t make the scripture vanish.

You can also repeat ad nauseam that Jesus was "the Christ", but he didn't perform the function of a king messiah according to the guidelines that were set down long before Christianity came along and usurped the role and gave it to Jesus.

May 31, 2010

So the question as I understand it is: do you have three imaginary friends or three imaginary friends wrapped into one imaginary friend. Am I missing anything?

Pop quiz: You have two imaginary friends. One of them gives you another, new imaginary friend who was secretly there the whole time as a ghost.

How many imaginary friends do you have?

June 2, 2010

...But you have ignored the clear teaching of God from Gen 3:15 - the protoevangelum - all thru John, Romans, Galatians, etc.to Revelation.

Gen 3:15, which you are implying was the first gospel, says nothing about salvation being acquired through grace, which is spawned by belief in a human sin sacrifice.

Such a sacrifice wasn’t even valid under the law that God later set down for his people to follow.

Nor does it say anything about faith in a human sacrifice being required to save people from damnation and hell.

The Compassion of the LORD

55 “Come, everyone who thirsts,

come to the waters;

and he who has no money,

come, buy and eat!

Come, buy wine and milk

without money and without price.

2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,

and your labor for that which does not satisfy?

Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good,

and delight yourselves in rich food.

3 Incline your ear, and come to me;

hear, that your soul may live;

and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,

my steadfast, sure love for David.

4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples,

a leader and commander for the peoples.

5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know,

and a nation that did not know you shall run to you,

because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel,

for he has glorified you.

6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;

call upon him while he is near;

7 let the wicked forsake his way,

and the unrighteous man his thoughts;

let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,

and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Is 55:1–9). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

What does this have to do with faith in Jesus?

Why are you attempting to use this as proof for a new system centered on a dying god-man?

Why don’t you quote the very next chapter which is Isa 56, where God tell Gentiles how they can be accepted by God?

What does God say in Isa 56 about being accepted into his fold? What does he tell people to do?

Salvation is obtained by seeking the law, not by wishing for a get out of jail free card to be handed out by a messianic impostor.

Psa 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

This does not say anything about having to seek “Jesus” in order to obtain salvation.

Revelation chap 22

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Re 22:16–19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

This passage doesn’t line up with the Gospel of either Matthew or Luke, contradicting the claim that Jesus was sired without male human flesh being involved.

Jesus is not the root of David, nor his descendant.

Jesus has no paternal biological father, the virgin birth eliminated that connection.

Long before this was penned, God warned his people not to add or subtract from his law, which is a violation of God’s rules that Christians have gleefully championed and engaged in, justifying their sin by appealing to the revelations and visions of a Jewish apostate called “Paul”.

The Bible is consistent - we receive God's salvation without cost to us - by grace thru faith in Jesus the Christ.

Your claim here s a mirage based on wishful thinking.

Even according to the New Testament, salvation requires the following:

Belief, maintaining belief, repenting, confessing before men, water baptism, and works of charity.

According to scripture they’re required in order to ensure salvation.

Works are required before salvation is assured.

Works are required because salvation is achieved by doing them.

If you don’t perform them, then your salvation isn’t binding in the first place.

Salvation is a procedure and a process.

Believing and repenting are done right from the start, these are not actions “subsequent to salvation”.

Confessing is done at the beginning of the salvation procedure along with water baptism.

Maintaining belief is an on-going work.

Works of charity are done later, but all of these are needed to ensure salvation.

If none of these are needed, as you assert, then several of the New Testament writers were liars, including James who said that faith without works is dead, as in useless.

As I noted earlier, there is no universal consistency in this, as evidenced by Christianity not being able to agree on even the basic and vital doctrine of salvation.

The so-called consistency only exists in your mind, where you mentally modify the Bible so that always conforms with what you want it to say.

Christianity has had almost 2,000 years to get it straight and they can’t manage to do it, despite all the help they’re supposed to be getting from the Holy Spirit.

That unpleasant reality throws cold holy water all over the prayer that Jesus made in John 17, where he prayed that believers would display perfect unity as proof to the world that he was sent by God.

Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity

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