Vomit Comet Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, I'm going to be a college professor one day, so I'm a little biased. But it always bugs me when someone says that making money is not just the #1 goal, but the sole goal of their going to college. It raises my hackles when they complain about courses that have nothing to do with that specific goal. I once knew this girl who, when she was about 14, was in England with her parents visiting her grandmother. She begged and begged them to take her down to Paris, which was just a quick train ride. So they finally caved. But when they got there, they refused to leave the train station. They ate at McDonald's and then took the next train back. It's not an exact parallel, but I was reminded of that story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, I'm going to be a college professor one day, so I'm a little biased. But it always bugs me when someone says that making money is not just the #1 goal, but the sole goal of their going to college. It raises my hackles when they complain about courses that have nothing to do with that specific goal. I once knew this girl who, when she was about 14, was in England with her parents visiting her grandmother. She begged and begged them to take her down to Paris, which was just a quick train ride. So they finally caved. But when they got there, they refused to leave the train station. They ate at McDonald's and then took the next train back. It's not an exact parallel, but I was reminded of that story. I agree. Maybe I have an elitist attitude about the university, but I don't believe the purpose it serves is to churn out future workers of the world. Getting a better paying job is a valuable side effect but the purpose of the university is to translate the knowledge accumulated over millenia to the next group of people. It's called progress and the knowlege provided was hard fought for. For those who just want a job and don't want this larger responsibility (or better, privledge) then you should go to vo tech school or somewhere else. Liberal arts universities have a purpose which is to provide their students with a well rounded understanding of the world around them and this in turn benefits society as a more enlightened society is more apt to contribute something of value to the world around them. If this sounds high minded, just compare educated societies with those who have less access to good education. The differences are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, I'm going to be a college professor one day, so I'm a little biased. But it always bugs me when someone says that making money is not just the #1 goal, but the sole goal of their going to college. It raises my hackles when they complain about courses that have nothing to do with that specific goal. Agree. To learn and study can be a goal in itself. And to have a wide range of knowledge can be very useful. And Vigile, well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Ramen, I'd suggest one thing at this point in this thread... "Listen to George Carlin" Catch a whiff of what it means to not_give_a_fuck and still be happy and somewhat successful. kL I love that guy, thanks to ExChristian.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, I'm going to be a college professor one day, so I'm a little biased. But it always bugs me when someone says that making money is not just the #1 goal, but the sole goal of their going to college. It raises my hackles when they complain about courses that have nothing to do with that specific goal. I once knew this girl who, when she was about 14, was in England with her parents visiting her grandmother. She begged and begged them to take her down to Paris, which was just a quick train ride. So they finally caved. But when they got there, they refused to leave the train station. They ate at McDonald's and then took the next train back. It's not an exact parallel, but I was reminded of that story. I agree. Maybe I have an elitist attitude about the university, but I don't believe the purpose it serves is to churn out future workers of the world. Getting a better paying job is a valuable side effect but the purpose of the university is to translate the knowledge accumulated over millenia to the next group of people. It's called progress and the knowlege provided was hard fought for. For those who just want a job and don't want this larger responsibility (or better, privledge) then you should go to vo tech school or somewhere else. Liberal arts universities have a purpose which is to provide their students with a well rounded understanding of the world around them and this in turn benefits society as a more enlightened society is more apt to contribute something of value to the world around them. If this sounds high minded, just compare educated societies with those who have less access to good education. The differences are great. And this is what I truly love about college, I'm just not sure that academic experience is worth the colossal price tag and all the unnecessary minutia attached to it these days. If college cost proportionately what it did when the Social Contract was first created and I wouldn't be bogged down with a pointless homework assignment each night for every class, I'd go back in a heartbeat - hell, even at current costs I'd probably do it if I just didn't have to worry about all the busywork. Unfortunately, those stupid, arbitrary practices have become institutionalized as part of the college experience. Though I actually have to say, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say the primary reason to go to college is to expand one's horizons. I agree that certainly should be the case, but as you well know what should be and what is all too often diverge in our giant, backward fuck-up of a country. Getting much of anywhere professionally in the U.S. all but requires a college degree anymore, whether an individual should really need one for that job or not. Gypsy's anecdote was a perfect example. Working a job which required no special education, doing the exact same thing as the woman in the next cubicle, yet she was making less simply because she didn't have a fancy piece of university paper to put on her resumè. As with virtually every other basic human service in our nation, "higher education" has become Big Business, and we the insignificant plebes get to suffer for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weetie Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Welcome to the forums I notice you are a new member, yeah changing majors at this point would be a shot in the foot. I am pretty much stuck basically in what I need to do. Thanks for the welcome. Happy to be here. Sorry that you're having such a sucky time. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, I'm going to be a college professor one day, so I'm a little biased. But it always bugs me when someone says that making money is not just the #1 goal, but the sole goal of their going to college. It raises my hackles when they complain about courses that have nothing to do with that specific goal. I once knew this girl who, when she was about 14, was in England with her parents visiting her grandmother. She begged and begged them to take her down to Paris, which was just a quick train ride. So they finally caved. But when they got there, they refused to leave the train station. They ate at McDonald's and then took the next train back. It's not an exact parallel, but I was reminded of that story. Hmmmm this is the way I see it we have the Major classes and then we have the General Education classes/remedial. The Gen Ed classes can be road hazards or the best thing since sliced bread (for your GPA) however the sole purpose for their existence and creating them as requirements is = $$$$$$$$$$$$$. All it adds is more hoops for the students to jump through, right now I am taking a class that has nothing to do with my major but the reason they are there is to milk the students more. This goes in the same line of failing a class, the school/department/whatever they don't care if you fail for a reason, it is because the school gets money. The higher education system is a business if you can't see that by your second year your missing something. In the end the sole reason for college and why people do it is to hope they get good money and good job, there really is no other reason for college but then we have people spending tens and thousands to make that money that they will then have to pay back, it is backwards to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In the end the sole reason for college and why people do it is to hope they get good money and good job, there really is no other reason for college but then we have people spending tens and thousands to make that money that they will then have to pay back, it is backwards to me. I disagree. I think there are more reasons. The propaganda that college is the "only" path to affluence and fame is fairly new in society, and I don't remember that being the message when I grew up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Yes college is worth it and there is no such thing as useless information. But there is such a thing as, "Is this bit of information really worth $1000+ and untold hours of my time to learn when it won't likely ever be used and doesn't interest me?" Hey Vigile, I know something you don't know. I can gaurnatee it. Pay me $10,000 and I'll enlighten you with this pearl of knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Yes college is worth it and there is no such thing as useless information. But there is such a thing as, "Is this bit of information really worth $1000+ and untold hours of my time to learn when it won't likely ever be used and doesn't interest me?" Hey Vigile, I know something you don't know. I can gaurnatee it. Pay me $10,000 and I'll enlighten you with this pearl of knowledge. Kind of like Scientology... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy79 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 This is just for anyone in general considering going to or staying in college, not just the OP: Getting my diploma was one of the best things I ever did. I was always a self-teacher/learner, so started on the college journey just to get that paper and make more money. About halfway through I started to realize I was being forced to learn about things I never would have, making me more well-rounded. Additionally, I was required to take a speech class which I dreaded and thought I didn't need but honestly, looking back, it was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me. Most importantly and above all, college taught me to think critically. It is the reason I am here and not in church raising my hands for Jeebus. I don't think there is anything wrong with going to college to make more money as long as you realize that it may turn out that way and it may not, and that the most important reason to go is your individual education and fulfillment. Sure, you can educate yourself, but why not get a piece of paper for all your work? If student loans are the bother, don't do them! Work your way through and take your time. Frankly, a lot of folks may think they are well-rounded, critical thinkers before going in (and maybe they are!) but I bet a lot of those very same people realize halfway through that they weren't as well-rounded and critical as they thought. I'm not saying a college degree is necessary to learn how to think that way; it most certainly is not. I'm just saying that I came out a lot better than I went in and bet a lot of others are surprised that they do too. I'm not sure whether this hits home with folks as much when they go to college straight out of high school, though. Yes, there are problems with the system in the U.S. We seem to enjoy trying to destroy the love of learning in students. I mean, writing papers helps you to become a more skillful writer and think about your subject more critically, sure, but after the ten thousandth one, you start to never want to touch another freaking book or learn another new thing in your life. Luckily, that passes eventually, but it would be nice if we could change our system so there's a little less busy work and little more TRUE learning, whatever that means. And we shouldn't have to treat everyone the same! (Like how I started that sentence with "And"? Learned in college that clarity in writing is more important than perfect grammer...ooo! Love it!) It is disturbing when the top student in a class who routinely knocks the professor's socks off still has to do the busy work one-pager that is designed for the other students who haven't quite yet grasped a certain concept. How about letting that A student do something a little more fun, challenging, and/or of their own choosing? Or, how about rewarding them for being so quick to catch on by letting them off the hook for once? Gawd forbid we allow any individuality or "different treatment" in our higher education. We might get sued....OH NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 There's much to be said about autodidacts (self-teachers). But in one well-spent year, formal education can systemically and holistically endow the learner with knowledge that would take the autodidact many years to haphazardly and incompletely piece together. I agree with everything Vigile wrote. I know that textbooks are a racket (hence the underground trade in used books), and I know it sucks balls that in this country you have to pay through the nose for what most other civilized countries provide their citizens with, but still... ...I'd rather chop off both my legs (and possibly even my dick) than to have my years of formal study and research be scrubbed out of my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have a friend who has not been able to get good paying jobs because all she has is a 2-year degree. She is now going back for a 4-year degree. If you want to find out if college is a scam, skip your 4-year and try to find jobs that pay more than $10-$12 an hour. She is also going to a local community college to get her 4-year so the price tag will not be colossal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 There's much to be said about autodidacts (self-teachers). But in one well-spent year, formal education can systemically and holistically endow the learner with knowledge that would take the autodidact many years to haphazardly and incompletely piece together. I agree with everything Vigile wrote. I know that textbooks are a racket (hence the underground trade in used books), and I know it sucks balls that in this country you have to pay through the nose for what most other civilized countries provide their citizens with, but still... Some colleges support re-selling the books, and I know one where the campus bookstore buy back and sell them discounted. I think you can find the books on ebay too many times. It's the publishers who try to avoid the re-selling. That's why they keep on coming out with new editions, where just very little has been changed. But teachers usually can deal with two (maybe three) different editions. ...I'd rather chop off both my legs (and possibly even my dick) than to have my years of formal study and research be scrubbed out of my mind. Oh, that's harsh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have a friend who has not been able to get good paying jobs because all she has is a 2-year degree. She is now going back for a 4-year degree. If you want to find out if college is a scam, skip your 4-year and try to find jobs that pay more than $10-$12 an hour. She is also going to a local community college to get her 4-year so the price tag will not be colossal. Are you implying it is not possible to get good paying jobs without college? My friend who ended up going to college would of been able to make $25+ an hour without any college degree in drafting for a company. He refused but those places are possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy79 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Hey Ramen, I know that last question wasn't directed to me, but I just wanted to mention that I was making about 50k per year with no college at all (not even a single class) so yes, it is possible. My problem arose when I realized I was stuck there and I would probably be making about 50k with only small raises for the rest of my life. Granted, I made more than my college friends for many years, but one day in my mid-twenties I looked around, and they had started to surpass me. These people were going on to make 100k per year doing the same thing I was doing. So, I went back to school and the playing field is even again. I daresay my "plan" (okay, accident) of delaying school worked out better for me. I appreciated it more, understood its non-monetary benefits more, was able to pay for it as I went along since I already had a great job, and probably have a higher net worth than I would have...because I have 4 more years of work experience and retirement contributions than my colleagues. So, for some folks, it is a useful exercise to delay college until you feel the burn. I guess it just depends on the individual. And then we have those special people who will be millionaires whether they go to school or not. That takes the right mix of a lot of different qualities that most people either don't have or don't tap into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Yes, there are problems with the system in the U.S. We seem to enjoy trying to destroy the love of learning in students. I mean, writing papers helps you to become a more skillful writer and think about your subject more critically, sure, but after the ten thousandth one, you start to never want to touch another freaking book or learn another new thing in your life. Luckily, that passes eventually, but it would be nice if we could change our system so there's a little less busy work and little more TRUE learning, whatever that means. And we shouldn't have to treat everyone the same! (Like how I started that sentence with "And"? Learned in college that clarity in writing is more important than perfect grammer...ooo! Love it!) It is disturbing when the top student in a class who routinely knocks the professor's socks off still has to do the busy work one-pager that is designed for the other students who haven't quite yet grasped a certain concept. How about letting that A student do something a little more fun, challenging, and/or of their own choosing? Or, how about rewarding them for being so quick to catch on by letting them off the hook for once? Gawd forbid we allow any individuality or "different treatment" in our higher education. We might get sued....OH NO! This. This is all I want. I know I said earlier the cost is an issue as well, but it's really not. My parents made a serious point of teaching me the value of education. As much as I hate being in debt, I will gladly pay through the nose for the next 30 years to go to school and get a bachelor's. Just give me an out WRT the endless streams of pointless busywork. Better yet, make it an option, but not necessary. There's absolutely no reason I shouldn't be able to pass just about any class with a B if I perform well on all the tests and projects, even if I never turn in a single daily assignment. I'm not looking for an easy ride to a 4.0 here, just less suck from the system. Design the education system to actually work for people and I'll be the happiest damn student you'll ever see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have to admit I find your points on busywork a bit puzzling Woodie. I had a lot of papers in school and a lot of research but I never thought of any of it as busywork. In fact the papers taught me to write and I ended up making a lot of money in my short writing career (until I grew bored of course and went another direction) and the research gave me a practical understanding of the subjects I was learning. You're a pretty smart cat and the fact that you don't have a degree and can think at the levels you are able always impresses me. Perhaps you are just one of those exceptional people who needs even more of a challenge than basic university courses can give you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Net Eng Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 The propaganda that college is the "only" path to affluence and fame is fairly new in society, and I don't remember that being the message when I grew up. Maybe, that's because you're old!! My recent experience with American high schools has been they push college to all kids. "This is the path to a good job" is the mantra. Why vocational training isn't pushed more is beyond me. College is expensive and not everyone who starts will not finish. Those who cannot finish end up in debt and a bad taste in their mouths over the experience. I have no problem with learning (no matter how old you are) but people need to be more realistic about who needs and can finish a college program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Are you implying it is not possible to get good paying jobs without college? My friend who ended up going to college would of been able to make $25+ an hour without any college degree in drafting for a company. He refused but those places are possible. You get paid based on skills. There are many professions that pay equal or more than many jobs that require degrees to those who have valuable skills. What I wonder is why isn't anyone also thinking of entrepreneurship? It depends on the person of course, but I felt like a wage slave working for others. I was truly never happy as a salaried employee. I was happy during my college years. I was unhappy again when I reentered the workforce after school. I have been perfectly happy and satisfied since 2003 when I started my own business and didn't have to answer to anyone. I'm still running my own business on my own. I'm now embarking with a new company, but this time I'm a partner, not a wage earner. It makes a world of difference for people like me who value freedom to a high degree. Again, I know I can't speak for everyone. But I do think a lot of you guys are selling yourselves short thinking about how you can make yourselves more valuable to the higher bidder instead of figuring out how you can create value on your own. It's not like this site is populated with everymen. And Gypsy, I totally empathize with your points on going to school later in life. It really does make a huge difference in how much you appreciate the education. I went to school thinking I knew everything and in short order learned that I knew nothing but damn was I hungry to learn. I still am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have to admit I find your points on busywork a bit puzzling Woodie. I had a lot of papers in school and a lot of research but I never thought of any of it as busywork. In fact the papers taught me to write and I ended up making a lot of money in my short writing career (until I grew bored of course and went another direction) and the research gave me a practical understanding of the subjects I was learning. Oh, I have no problem with research papers and big projects. Well, no more than anyone else, at any rate. My problem is with the stupid, one-page daily homework assignments which serve no purpose beyond showing the professor you read the material - a purpose which is served just as well by my participating in the subsequent class discussion of the material the next day. The point of contention for me is a student who's not so inclined toward discussion can simply complete the homework assignment and receive full credit, whereas I can't do the reverse. You're a pretty smart cat and the fact that you don't have a degree and can think at the levels you are able always impresses me. Perhaps you are just one of those exceptional people who needs even more of a challenge than basic university courses can give you. Possibly. Now I just need to convince the academic advisers of that and get out of taking the boring-ass core classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have a friend who has not been able to get good paying jobs because all she has is a 2-year degree. She is now going back for a 4-year degree. If you want to find out if college is a scam, skip your 4-year and try to find jobs that pay more than $10-$12 an hour. She is also going to a local community college to get her 4-year so the price tag will not be colossal. Are you implying it is not possible to get good paying jobs without college? My friend who ended up going to college would of been able to make $25+ an hour without any college degree in drafting for a company. He refused but those places are possible. Lot of decent job will pay far more than 10-12/hour with no college. I make more than that with no college (and more than the college grad people I work with mind you). You only have 1 year to go so it's probably worth finishing even though it is robbery but it's absurd to think you have to have a college degree to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have a friend who has not been able to get good paying jobs because all she has is a 2-year degree. She is now going back for a 4-year degree. If you want to find out if college is a scam, skip your 4-year and try to find jobs that pay more than $10-$12 an hour. She is also going to a local community college to get her 4-year so the price tag will not be colossal. Are you implying it is not possible to get good paying jobs without college? My friend who ended up going to college would of been able to make $25+ an hour without any college degree in drafting for a company. He refused but those places are possible. Lot of decent job will pay far more than 10-12/hour with no college. I make more than that with no college (and more than the college grad people I work with mind you). You only have 1 year to go so it's probably worth finishing even though it is robbery but it's absurd to think you have to have a college degree to be successful. I just want to get this shit behind me every day I just feel like I am out of place there, feel like I am wasting time, wasting money on the books, tuition, and just paying a business who does a crappy job just to get a paper which may or may not be worth it.......but so close might as well suffer a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Assuming I stayed the same rank (I'm sure I would have been promoted) in the military I was when I was medically retired, living in the location I am (you get housing money, rate varies by location) I would be pulling in $53,246 a year with about 20K of that tax free income and not including the other benifits like free medical and discounted food. No college degree required. This is just another example of how you don't need a degree to make a living wage. My Dad works for Proctor & Gamble. No degree. Started there a couple years ago and he's making around $17/hour even though he has so little seniority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Here is an article on this topic: (for anyone who is following this thread) http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...llege_scam.html This article brings up many points I agree with it, then the question asks what is the point of high ranking universities, in the end isn't all degrees considered equal? A BA in a no name university should have the same ground as one of the top schools, a BA is a BA?? It seems more like a pride issue, vanity and show off attitude that we as a nation have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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