Is College Really Worth It?

[OpheliaGinger]

There is a new book out called Meritocracy (I haven't read it, just saw it on the Daily Show), where the author exposes how you are not getting any better of an education from a place like Harvard then you would from a community college; the reason why ivy league schools are so expensive is not for the education but for the grounds upkeep.

[Ramen666]

There is a new book out called Meritocracy (I haven't read it, just saw it on the Daily Show), where the author exposes how you are not getting any better of an education from a place like Harvard then you would from a community college; the reason why ivy league schools are so expensive is not for the education but for the grounds upkeep.

 

Thank you for confirming this it is indeed an interesting subject that people don't really talk about.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe, that's because you're old!!

Oh, tell me about it!

 

My recent experience with American high schools has been they push college to all kids. "This is the path to a good job" is the mantra.

Exactly. I think it's a modern mantra, because if we go back to when the Universities started, with Aristotle and those guys, it wasn't about money, fame, or good job, but about knowledge and insight.

 

Back in the 19th century, it was a little bit about getting a philosophical, or perhaps medical, degree, but no one went to a four year college for a degree in agriculture. School has evolved into this machine to create people "fit" for work, and of course it isn't necessary. But... for some people like me, going back to College is a great experience, and have the purpose for more than just money or work.

 

Why vocational training isn't pushed more is beyond me.

 

College is expensive and not everyone who starts will not finish. Those who cannot finish end up in debt and a bad taste in their mouths over the experience.

 

I have no problem with learning (no matter how old you are) but people need to be more realistic about who needs and can finish a college program.

Very true. I think College has become a product and industry by itself. It's money now, more than education.

[Ouroboros]

There is a new book out called Meritocracy (I haven't read it, just saw it on the Daily Show), where the author exposes how you are not getting any better of an education from a place like Harvard then you would from a community college; the reason why ivy league schools are so expensive is not for the education but for the grounds upkeep.

Several of the professors I talked to agree.

[gypsy79]

There is a new book out called Meritocracy (I haven't read it, just saw it on the Daily Show), where the author exposes how you are not getting any better of an education from a place like Harvard then you would from a community college; the reason why ivy league schools are so expensive is not for the education but for the grounds upkeep.

 

This is very interesting. I haven't read the book or looked into this subject very far, but these types of thoughts were fluttering around in my head when I chose schools. I chose the cheapest community college in my area for the first half and the cheapest state school in my area for the last half. Yes, I had the test scores to get in somewhere else, but I didn't see the point in spending the extra money. All in all, I think I paid about 25k for school including books, so was easily able to pay cash over 5 years as I went. Didn't even feel the need to waste time and effort trying to get scholarships or grants.

 

*Edited to clarify that I just graduated last year, so this was not back in the 50s. Haha.*

[white_raven23]

I know if it weren't for college and my anthropology class, I would still be a fundamentalist Christian.

 

 

Hear hear,

 

For me, the "spark" was an Eastern Philosophy class. One lecture got the ball rolling. It was about stories repeating in the bible.

 

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife-sister_n...ives_in_Genesis

 

And the professor discussed the absence of "logic" for the SAME guy to do the SAME "my wife is my sister" shit TWICE once in Egypt, and again in Gerar.

 

That lecture, along with later on going and attending a service at a local mosque and "feeling" god as much there as in church (was still a christian then), it was the beginning of the end.

 

If not for college, I might still be a square peg trying to force myself to "fit" in a round hole and convince myself that the things that made the people around me happy and content were justifyably the same things that were supposed to make ME happy when they really didn't.

 

College gave me the chance to grow into myself, and the time to come to accept that I really couldn't be like everyone else. It also exposed me to others who were square pegs in their own way too, and that it was okay.

 

I also worked during school here and there. I was taking between 12 to 15 credit hours at a time, and working full time. The years I did that, I think I was a shell of a human being. It was better for me to work full time all summer, then quit and go to school in the fall and winter.

 

 

As for whether or not college is "worth it" I'd say it depends on what you hold as worthwhile. My job has nothing to do with my degree (neither was a degree required for it), and I get paid well. Notice I did not say "career". I don't have a "career". When asked what I want to do with the rest of my life (god what a depressing question!) the answer still is, and as always been "I don't know". The job supports my lifestyle, and that's all I want from it. So from a work perspective, my degree got me jack shit. But from a quality of life perspective, I think college is one of the best things I've ever done.

[Ramen666]

I have to say for me..what I learned did not really start to make sense until about 10 years after I graduated. I was a Speech Comm Major. I studied all kinds of human communication. I went into sales and marketing out of college. I learned a most valuable lesson. I FUCKING HATED WORKING IN CORPORATE AMERICA! College, regardless of the major you have, trains your mind to relate in an organized way to the world around you. You learn that things fit together in society in ways you never imagine. The degree...ahh...it is a piece of paper. I will say however, there are certain fields and types of jobs you cannot get without the piece of paper, or promotions you have to have one to get. As for me, I have myown small business and my time in college did give me at least a cursory background into what I am doing now. I do business on college campuses all over the southeastern USA.

 

Of course but none of those fields I am even interested in so it is very possible to get by without the paper...which is not that useful in the real world only in select fields.

 

EDIT: I see that this thread is moved, I was going to suggest it because this was becoming more personal issues the other users and I have with this than with the news story, thanks nivek (if you are the one that moved it). Lets carry on here folks.

[Ramen666]

When I thought it couldn't get worse.

 

 

So apparently I failed the writing test to graduate :wtf:, I passed the class however that counts for that requirement in my 2nd year but we need to pass it our 3rd year. I got a B on it and passed all the tests that is basically that exam. I wasted 25.00 for that shit! Right now I emailed one of the graders (who I had his class the 2nd year disputing the results).

 

And everyone now is pissed off at me....(my parents). Now I have to pass that class that I am hanging on by a thread and I am stressed or more hell will break loose. I told my parents I was done with college, I don't want to go back, they insist that I get that degree..... I fucking hate college life and I don't know how people put up with this shit as we speak I am also studying for finals. (sigh)

 

 

end rant.

 

I will update but I am going all out to dispute my score and show I have passed this stuff before way before I was a Junior. So far I emailed him this morning and no response.

 

 

UPDATE: 1 He emailed me just now and he is going to "investigate" why my essay did not pass, he went on and overlooked where I said I took the essay in his class three times and said that is not the core reason I passed his class..........(sigh). More updates Monday.

[PaulQ]

My own experience was that, without College, jobs that paid more than minimum wage were few and far between. Sure, there were people without a post-secondary education who did manage to make more than the minimum wage, but they tended to be the exception rather than the rule. If you didn't know someone, it was like playing the lottery Even skilled trades today require a certain amount of post-secondary "Classroom" time.

 

I had plenty of "Skills," and I would approach potential employers telling them I had the necessary skills to perform a job. The response from them was always the same: I needed to prove this to them by obtaining the relevant credentials via post-secondary education; whether this be with certification or a diploma. Without this, they wouldn't waste their time giving me an interview.

 

After receiving my diploma, many new doors did open for me, and my new minimum wage was double the actual minimum wage.

 

That said, many post-secondary institutions are really businesses that are more interested in filling seats than they are in enlightening the masses. What I had done, and what needs to be done, is to find a need that matches your aptitude and desire, then obtain whatever is generally recognized in that field as proof of your skills and knowledge.

[Amethyst]

I have a friend who has not been able to get good paying jobs because all she has is a 2-year degree. She is now going back for a 4-year degree. If you want to find out if college is a scam, skip your 4-year and try to find jobs that pay more than $10-$12 an hour. She is also going to a local community college to get her 4-year so the price tag will not be colossal.

 

Are you implying it is not possible to get good paying jobs without college? My friend who ended up going to college would of been able to make $25+ an hour without any college degree in drafting for a company. He refused but those places are possible.

 

Not if you want to work in a corporation in most of the country - at least Minnesota, for sure. Most corporations here will not even hire beyond secretary level without 4-year degrees. My friend has worked help desk jobs her whole life, hates it even though she's good at it, and wants to advance her career to the next level, but not having a 4-year degree is costing her that opportunity because companies keep telling her "not without a degree."

 

Drafting or factory jobs are not for everyone. It's wonderful that your friend could have made a job getting $25 an hour as a drafter, but that is a highly specialized skill set and you have to be good at math for it.

[Amethyst]

What I wonder is why isn't anyone also thinking of entrepreneurship? It depends on the person of course, but I felt like a wage slave working for others. I was truly never happy as a salaried employee. I was happy during my college years. I was unhappy again when I reentered the workforce after school. I have been perfectly happy and satisfied since 2003 when I started my own business and didn't have to answer to anyone.

 

The problem with entrepreneurship is that most small companies actually fail. It is one of those things in American life that sounds good, but isn't for everyone.

[Vigile]

What I wonder is why isn't anyone also thinking of entrepreneurship? It depends on the person of course, but I felt like a wage slave working for others. I was truly never happy as a salaried employee. I was happy during my college years. I was unhappy again when I reentered the workforce after school. I have been perfectly happy and satisfied since 2003 when I started my own business and didn't have to answer to anyone.

 

The problem with entrepreneurship is that most small companies actually fail. It is one of those things in American life that sounds good, but isn't for everyone.

 

There are more ways to work for yourself than to start a small business. Consulting, freelance, online services, etc...

 

If you start off with the attitude that risk is intolerable then it probably isn't for you. Personally for me, working for someone else is intolerable. Also, failure or success isn't a craps shoot. If you make wise choices about what you choose to do and do it well you can control a great deal of your own fate.

[Ramen666]

I just am in a crummy position aren't I? I realized that posting it on here, basically I don't want to waste any more time than I have to and basically I have to finish (because I am so close). I can't change my major because I am too far in the business one. Now top it off with a test I should of passed, no issues.

[RankStranger]

Ramen- if you're fairly close to completing college, then I really think you should stick with it. Better to waste 1 more year working toward that magic piece of paper than to find yourself having to pay for student loans WITHOUT the benefits (however debatable) of a degree.

 

I agree with Vomit, Vigile, and Hans about college being MUCH more than a vocational degree. I deal with uneducated boobs every day who haven't even the most basic grasp of science, the legal system, communication skills, the world outside Kansas... you name it. Several of these guys are genuinely intelligent, but their world-view and knowledge base stops at the boundaries of whatever their own home state, profession, religion, etc. happens to be. It doesn't take much imagination to see how easily these people can be (and often are) manipulated and taken advantage of politically, financially, spiritually, etc.

 

For fuck's sake... I caused a small revolution in the shop one time when I used pi to calculate the number of revolutions that a particular axle will make in a mile (this is one parameter that gets entered into the engine control module). My co-workers had never heard of c=2(pi)r... didn't believe me at first.

 

I think a lot of what you get out of college depends on your social network, location, and what school you attend. For poor white trash living in nowhere, USA (like myself), this means that a degree in something like communications or liberal arts will do very little for you. In my situation, I think it's important to pursue a degree with guaranteed applicability to real-world employment. My wife has a degree in communications, and never was able to do much with it. It didn't directly qualify her for much. Had she had a network of people in a location with some economic opportunity, things might have been different. But she was basically turned loose at age 22 with a communications degree from a relatively unknown state university. After a few years with no luck at landing a 'real job', she went back to school and got a master's degree in psychology- and that has worked out really well so far. The degree directly and immediately qualifies her for several jobs. The pay is nothing spectacular, but it beats the hell out of waiting tables.

 

I'm working on a similar strategery with my engineering degree. I want that magic piece of paper that will get me a desk job at (eventually) twice my current income. If I learn something along the way, that's great (and I have)... but that isn't the main goal here. I just want the degree: society's stamp of approval that tells potential employers that I'm a pretty smart guy who can put up with bullshit and play the game as structured. Not exactly a high-minded outlook, but it's all too easy to remain grounded when you go to a job every day that requires manual work in 100-degree heat, dealing with damn near illiterate bosses, and making conversation with truck drivers.

[Ramen666]

I am going for a Business degree which can be basically used in anything at least....I just have to put up with it a little more but I have to pass one of these classes in order to do it and it is a pass/fail situation right now.

[Mriana]

I'm late as usual, but if you want my opinion, I say it is worth it. During the years, (I'm a professional student I have one degree in Psychology and almost finished with a second one ) I've been in college I've pretty much got to do my own thing and sometimes my own research. You can do independent studies in your field of study and when you do that, it is a lot of fun. I forget how many independent study courses I've done- at least 2 and then I have had a couple of swing courses. I've pretty much gone to school the whole time my sons were growing up, so I have yet to see if all that education actually pays off. It better, because I went through the first time with grants and this time, I have a crap load of loans.

[Ramen666]

I'm late as usual, but if you want my opinion, I say it is worth it. During the years, (I'm a professional student I have one degree in Psychology and almost finished with a second one ) I've been in college I've pretty much got to do my own thing and sometimes my own research. You can do independent studies in your field of study and when you do that, it is a lot of fun. I forget how many independent study courses I've done- at least 2 and then I have had a couple of swing courses. I've pretty much gone to school the whole time my sons were growing up, so I have yet to see if all that education actually pays off. It better, because I went through the first time with grants and this time, I have a crap load of loans.

 

It looks like you are taking a gamble the way you describe it because you rely on hoping it will pay off...throughout this thread I have learned the following it is not exactly worth it all the time, some fields require but others don't, the college industry is more of a business and the whole point of college is just to get money, or a paper (now in today's society it is not about learning knowledge), the only reason I should continue I am so close but it still doesn't mean it will be worth it.

[Vigile]

My problem is with the stupid, one-page daily homework assignments which serve no purpose beyond showing the professor you read the material - a purpose which is served just as well by my participating in the subsequent class discussion of the material the next day

 

Hmm... I don't recall having to do anything like this.

 

I did fail Acct 201 once because I only showed up for class on test days. I aced the tests and failed based on attendance. That pissed me off. Some profs don't care about attendance and reading as long as you prove you understand the material during test time or write a good paper, others do.

[Vigile]

There is a new book out called Meritocracy (I haven't read it, just saw it on the Daily Show), where the author exposes how you are not getting any better of an education from a place like Harvard then you would from a community college; the reason why ivy league schools are so expensive is not for the education but for the grounds upkeep.

 

This is very interesting. I haven't read the book or looked into this subject very far, but these types of thoughts were fluttering around in my head when I chose schools. I chose the cheapest community college in my area for the first half and the cheapest state school in my area for the last half. Yes, I had the test scores to get in somewhere else, but I didn't see the point in spending the extra money. All in all, I think I paid about 25k for school including books, so was easily able to pay cash over 5 years as I went. Didn't even feel the need to waste time and effort trying to get scholarships or grants.

 

*Edited to clarify that I just graduated last year, so this was not back in the 50s. Haha.*

 

I went to a state college but had an ajunct prof from Yale. He told us we were held to the same standards and studied the same material as Yale students. In DC I worked with Yale, Harvard, Georgetown, and Brown grads and I think I was pretty much able to hold my own in conversations with them. Maybe I was just kidding myself

[Vigile]

Several of these guys are genuinely intelligent, but their world-view and knowledge base stops at the boundaries of whatever their own home state, profession, religion, etc. happens to be. It doesn't take much imagination to see how easily these people can be (and often are) manipulated and taken advantage of politically, financially, spiritually, etc.

 

That's been pretty much my experience as well. I know that the post grad me is a very different person than the pre college me. My father and my brother are both very intelligent but they are still very religious and still fall into thinking traps that an education would keep them out of.

 

My grandfather, OTH, was an autodidact and while he wasn't able to attend university like he wanted, he taught himself quantum mechanics, physics, and was an engineer by trade. Because of his super high level of intelligence he was able to avoid poor thinking patterns and could probably put most college grads to shame in a debate of ideas. He was also the only one in my family who was a life long atheist.

 

Bottom line, most of us will benefit from a broader exposure to education, but there are some who are just exceptional. There are a few on this board like that I think.

[Vomit Comet]

I don't know about undergrad, but at the grad level...

 

...the best students at elite schools aren't much different from the best students at nowhere schools.

 

Well, at a grad program at a nowhere school, there will be more of a drop-off. The top 5 graduate students in psychology at Nowhere State will be about as good as the top 20 psychology grad students at Yale. Well, except the ones at Yale will: 1) tend to have better math scores on the GRE; 2) and much more importantly, they will have gone somewhere fancy for undergrad. Merit alone does not determine where you end up. Name counts for a lot, even among academics pretending to be all egalitarian and socialist.

[Ouroboros]

Name counts for a lot, even among academics pretending to be all egalitarian and socialist.

Yup. The reference groups will take the name of the school into account.

[Mriana]

I'm late as usual, but if you want my opinion, I say it is worth it. During the years, (I'm a professional student I have one degree in Psychology and almost finished with a second one ) I've been in college I've pretty much got to do my own thing and sometimes my own research. You can do independent studies in your field of study and when you do that, it is a lot of fun. I forget how many independent study courses I've done- at least 2 and then I have had a couple of swing courses. I've pretty much gone to school the whole time my sons were growing up, so I have yet to see if all that education actually pays off. It better, because I went through the first time with grants and this time, I have a crap load of loans.

 

It looks like you are taking a gamble the way you describe it because you rely on hoping it will pay off...throughout this thread I have learned the following it is not exactly worth it all the time, some fields require but others don't, the college industry is more of a business and the whole point of college is just to get money, or a paper (now in today's society it is not about learning knowledge), the only reason I should continue I am so close but it still doesn't mean it will be worth it.

 

I am, because technically, I don't need the second degree. My first degree I got in '98 was in Psychology (emphasis on neuro-psy) and hearing impairments (BS). I spent some time working with the chronically mentally ill (the merry-go-round type mentally ill). Some of them I empathized with greatly, so much so that I think I became enmeshed with them, which is a big no-no in the field. One has to be able to keep a certain emotional distance from the patients and some I was unable to do that with for some reason- I think the worst was the young (early 20 y.o.) neo-natal ICU nurse who had depression. I thought she was doing well, which I knew from my studies that is the time to watch those who are depressed more, because when they start to get better, that is when they attempt suicide. She was a very nice, even compassionate young woman- which showed in her feelings towards the babies in the ICU neo-natal unit. One day, I had to do a group, had to gather up my group of patients, but she was no where to be found. I asked the charge nurse if she knew where said patient was. She said, "She's probably seeing the psychiatrist. Go ahead and do your group." I finished the group and they were pulling her out of the day bathroom. She had used a plastic spoon to cut her wrist and elbow joints. It wasn't the blood that bothered me, but rather I was sadden that she attempted such a thing in the hospital. She was sent to the ER and returned looking like a football. I realize it was not all my fault that that happened, but it still hurt and she is one of many stories that still plague me greatly. I can tell many.

 

I decided I went into the field for all the wrong reasons and chose to go back for another degree in English (emphasis on creative writing) with an easy minor (since I had so many courses in it before and made A's, thus need to take few courses in that area) in Religion. I don't actually need a degree to write, not even non-fiction, but I polished my writing communication skills by doing so. I also love to learn and have always loved being in school. The thing is, when this economy breaks and more jobs are available, I may have to go back to the psychology field just to pay all the loans from my second degree which is yet unfinished (I have 3 more courses to go, IF I can get the uni to accept my sign language for the foreign language requirement for the BA). However, I need to work now because things are so bad, so it would be difficult to finish at this time, but I'm underemployed currently- I'd say working at Taco Bell is so underemployed that I'm getting brain rot. Even when we are busy, I'm bored due to no mental stimulation.

 

Even IF the only thing I write and get published in my life is my story concerning Evangelicals and alike, I probably will still have to go back to the psych field just to pay all those loans from the second degree that is yet unfinished, whether I want to or not, BUT maybe I don't have to work with the chronically mentally ill. I don't know if I can find something in that field that isn't with the chronically mentally ill though with a BS degree in Psychology though. I can try though. I do know this though, given what I have written so far and the interest there of, my story will probably sell- I have found there is an interest in my story and it probably won't be a worthless endeavour after all. I had thought before sharing some of it here, that there would be no interest, because it is only one story, but it seems I maybe wrong. IF it helps people and/or makes a difference, it will be well worth it, even if I don't make much money off it. I really don't care about the money, I just want people to know just how bad religious extremism can be and the affects it can have on others.

[woodsmoke]

Here is an article on this topic: (for anyone who is following this thread)

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...llege_scam.html

 

Very true. I think College has become a product and industry by itself. It's money now, more than education.

 

That said, many post-secondary institutions are really businesses that are more interested in filling seats than they are in enlightening the masses.

 

As with virtually every other basic human service in our nation, "higher education" has become Big Business, and we the insignificant plebes get to suffer for it.

I'm glad to see you all agree with me.

 

Hmm... I don't recall having to do anything like this.

 

I did fail Acct 201 once because I only showed up for class on test days. I aced the tests and failed based on attendance. That pissed me off. Some profs don't care about attendance and reading as long as you prove you understand the material during test time or write a good paper, others do.

This wasn't the case for all of my classes. In fact, those I enjoyed most were blessedly devoid of busywork. The real offenders on that count are the core classes - especially English. English 1010 is the bane of my collegiate existence. I'm actually very good with the subject, despite what my grades from about 7th grade on would tell you. I've never had a teacher/professor who didn't immediately recognize my writing talent. The problem is I'm fundamentally opposed on an atomic level to daily writing assignments. They're just about the only thing in the universe could drive me to violence. Unfortunately, I've yet to meet an English class in which daily writing bullshit didn't feature as a significant part of the final grade.

 

In a way, I actually kind of envy you folks who had big, life-changing experiences at college. I'm sure you all got fed up with things at times just as I did, but I would think a significant experience like that could provide the motivation to keep going even when you want for nothing more than to shove each and every text book diagonally up each and every professor's tightened sphincter, then steal president's/dean's cars and park them on their roofs. By the time I got to college I'd long since been awoken to the rackets of religion, school, politics, etc. and fully embraced my cynicism. I still enjoyed parts of college, obviously, but it didn't take long at all for the shine to wear off and discontent to steadily settle in once again.

[Mriana]

I love doing research and writing papers. So the busy work, if it pertain to writing a paper, didn't really bother me. Sometimes, the way I made the grades I did, was due to the research papers and alike. If it had not been for the papers, I would not have done very well. Sometimes that paper is what saved me, because I can't take tests very well (test anxiety). I see such things as lifesavers. That, and I wouldn't mind going to college to get a Ph. D., because that doctoral paper (actually it's a book) could be fun.