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Goodbye Jesus

Help, I've Lost All Idea Of Spirituality!


Autonomous

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I wonder if anyone else has dealt with anything like this. I was a Christian for 22 years, from age 11. During that time I did some some seemingly convincing experiences and times I thought God had spoken to me. But over time evidence built up that those things weren't real.

 

I lost my faith 3 years ago (V long story cut v short!) and after a year became a Pagan. I always had a mystical side and I loved, loved, loved it. It brought me so much joy. But after 2 years I had to admit I didn't really believe in that either.

 

Now basically I am an agnostic atheist- I don't know and I don't think I can know but basically I see no reason to think there's a God or anything out there beyond what we can see and so live as if there isn't.

 

The problem- I want my joy back! It seems like everyone I know follows a belief system that makes them happy, whether Christian, new age, pagan, atheist, not bothered etc. But for me, that is not my experience at all. I don't want to be an atheist! Well, I do, because I think it's the truth, but I don't want it to be the truth because it makes me unhappy. I sometimes have feelings of connectedness or transcendence but I believe that's jjst neurotransmitters and so on, I don't believe it means there's anything out there.

 

Having believed in my Christian experiences and then lost my faith, and then had just as convincing experiences as a Pagan, which contradict each other (eg meeting Jesus in a personal way, meeting some kind of earth goddess in an also convincing way, can't both be real entities) I now don't see how I could ever trust an experience. I don't believe they can be trusted.

 

I think we evolved to be spiritual because it was to our advantage in some way. I feel like I have the capacity, begging to be used, but no way of expressing it. I want the joy that Paganism brought me to come back. I want to be able to express my "mystical" side, which made me love things like sacred sites and King Arthur as a child. I am a scientist and I like to see myself as a rational, thinking person. But I liked having this extra dimension too. Things feel really flat.

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I admit it was fun believing in magic, but the more I looked into it (Christianity, Paganism, related woo-woo) the more it became evident to me that there was in fact no basis for these beliefs. Once you've seen the man behind the curtain, there's no going back.

 

Our universe is amazing, and having one lifetime to experience and learn about it makes it that much more special.

 

Reality doesn't have to be a bitter pill.

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Dunno, perhaps spirituality isn't the only path to happiness? Maybe just finding your passion will do it. I can't tell you what your passion is/will be, but it could be anything from a career/business goal, a hobby, travel, a new love, whatever yanks your chain. :shrug:

 

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about though. I don't feel I really have a spiritual side. The closest thing to spiritual for me is reading a great book, watching a great film, or contemplating the enormity of the universe.

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Help, I've Lost All Idea Of Spirituality!

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

I know others disagree, but for me, believing in/worrying about anything supernatural/spiritual seems like a waste of the few precious years we do have to enjoy life and one another.

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Guest PhucWadGawd
I wonder if anyone else has dealt with anything like this. I was a Christian for 22 years, from age 11. During that time I did some some seemingly convincing experiences and times I thought God had spoken to me. But over time evidence built up that those things weren't real.

 

I lost my faith 3 years ago (V long story cut v short!) and after a year became a Pagan. I always had a mystical side and I loved, loved, loved it. It brought me so much joy. But after 2 years I had to admit I didn't really believe in that either.

 

Now basically I am an agnostic atheist- I don't know and I don't think I can know but basically I see no reason to think there's a God or anything out there beyond what we can see and so live as if there isn't.

 

The problem- I want my joy back! It seems like everyone I know follows a belief system that makes them happy, whether Christian, new age, pagan, atheist, not bothered etc. But for me, that is not my experience at all. I don't want to be an atheist! Well, I do, because I think it's the truth, but I don't want it to be the truth because it makes me unhappy. I sometimes have feelings of connectedness or transcendence but I believe that's jjst neurotransmitters and so on, I don't believe it means there's anything out there.

 

Having believed in my Christian experiences and then lost my faith, and then had just as convincing experiences as a Pagan, which contradict each other (eg meeting Jesus in a personal way, meeting some kind of earth goddess in an also convincing way, can't both be real entities) I now don't see how I could ever trust an experience. I don't believe they can be trusted.

 

I think we evolved to be spiritual because it was to our advantage in some way. I feel like I have the capacity, begging to be used, but no way of expressing it. I want the joy that Paganism brought me to come back. I want to be able to express my "mystical" side, which made me love things like sacred sites and King Arthur as a child. I am a scientist and I like to see myself as a rational, thinking person. But I liked having this extra dimension too. Things feel really flat.

I've been struggling with this as well. Sounds like you want to be plugged back into The Matrix. Once I deduced that God most likely does not exist, I thought my very foundation had been ripped out from under me. So there's no "grand plan" for my life, after all. Sometimes I miss the delusion of magical thinking. Sounds like you do, too.

 

You know what, though? Out of chaos and randomness, order emerges. Somehow, this Universe came together and formed. We, like everything else, are a part of that process. Our Universe is really vast and beautiful, mysterious and wonderful. The particles that existed at the beginning of time exist in us. I find that awe inspiring. After the human race is gone from this earth -- destroyed by holy wars, devolution, or whatever -- the Universe will continue, and processes will give rise to other life forms. I think this is incredible, that we, as tiny specks of existence, get to be a part of this, and to experience consciousness. I don't know the meaning of life, but doesn't any of that give you a sense of wonder and meaning? Even in the randomness, chaos, and disorder of life, order, cycles, and patterns will emerge. Maybe there is no "grand plan", but everything works just so: The physical laws that gave rise to formation of the Universe and its continuing evolution shaped us, too. Somehow, our cells "know" to divide, our hearts "know" how to beat, our blood "knows" how to course through our veins, our synapses "know" to fire so that we can have thoughts and actions.

 

You don't need to believe in magic again. Faith is a slippery slope. It will tie your brain into knots of cognitive dissonance, confusing you so much that you will need more faith, then more cognitive dissonance comes from sustaining the lies you tell yourself, then you need more faith yet again. It's a vicious cycle. Why trade reality for a fantasy? You already know this. So trash the temptations of magic and faith; get yourself a telescope or something! Explore, wonder, ponder the Universe.

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I struggle with this too. Only one experence I had could have been supernatural, but it was just when I got out of the mental hospital and could have been a complex hallucination. Basically i got text messages on my cell phone that was the name of my favorite video game character followed by gibberish, freaked me out so I didn't save them. I did speak in tounges before in an AoG church, but I probably was just going along with the flow.

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Perhaps a new hobby or group to join and hang with? Beliving in Santa and the Easter Bunny was fun as a kid but I wouldn't want to go back to trying to convince myself fairytales are real. There is plenty of wonder and amzing things that are real without having to invent it.

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I believe having a sense of spirituality is satisfying and normal. Any time I want to get 'connected', I go to the desert or to the woods or to the lake. There are certain moments in certain places that elevate my feelings of being alive. To me this is a spiritual connection with the earth. I don't believe a spiritual moment involves visions or supernatural occurrences. Spirituality is what you make of it, not what you may expect of it because of religious beliefs. Be open-minded and have imagination. Maybe that wren begging worms while I'm fishing is a messenger for me, at that moment? Maybe it's just hungry? I don't restrict what feelings I have based on what I have been taught in the past. I write down these odd events and think about them now and then.

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I think Heretic put it in a more useful way than I did.

 

What some may label as 'spiritual', thus invoking the idea of something supernatural, is to me just being open to experiencing the awe and wonder of the reality we live in and are a part of. I don't think about the release of certain chemicals in my brain when I feel good - I just enjoy the feeling.

 

Glory!

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Yeah, it took a while for me to separate some of this stuff after I got off the magic bus.

 

 

First I began using the term, "psycho-spiritual", and then "psycho-emotional". I even toyed around with the term "Hypnogogic transcendental experience", then I settled upon just saying...

 

 

"Cool..."

 

 

The true liberation was realizing that everything is generated within my mind interacting with reality. There are no elements being injected from "out there". A beautiful starry night, processed through my own conciousness, lifting my spirits/feelings/ sense of "being", where I am now in fact "God".

 

 

ooooohhhhhhh.................................dare to glory in the fulfillment of the self. What religion seems to fear the most.

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what i do now is I view God in a different way...i believe He is there when we need Him, but He doesn't want us to "spread the good news", worship Him 24/7, etc. I just ask for help when I need it and it helps me to deal with OCD, but i only think about it when I want and I'm not feeling guilty for not thinking about God more. So its also easier to be de-converted when feelings of "am I wrong?" come up, as I tell myself..."See, you're still with God"

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am a pagan atheist. I love the rituals and the symbolism in paganism. I love the stories. I love being called a witch. I don't worship gods and I don't believe in supernatural. Everything is natural, doesn't mean it isn't wonderful or amazing or beautiful. It doesn't have to be mundane and empty. I believe in the sun, the moon, the earth, the elements of earth air fire and water. I mean, who doesn't - they exist! Finding meaning in them doesn't require worship or belief in anything supernatural.

 

I get what you mean though. I started out in Wicca approaching it like I was replacing my God with new ones. It doesn't make any more sense, but does a lot less damage (at least for me emotionally and such). But eventually I realized that trying to reach out to new gods and spiritual guides was just as useless. So I just celebrate the seasons, life stages, life in general. I use Italian and Celtic based traditions to connect to my heritage. We are all connected physically, and if you can find comfort in that paganism can be very rewarding without the need to worship anything or believe in supernatural.

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I don’t feel very spiritual at the moment. But there are times when I do. And it has nothing to with the supernatural. There just seems to be moments when all worry and fear pass from me. And I am enthralled with the pulsing connectedness of everything. The beauty of all things shines forth. Awe and gratitude flow into me for the opportunity to bear witness.

 

And then I have to get back to work, or some other mundane thing.

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I think I can understand that. I also think of myself as spiritual kind of. I've been out of christianity for half a year, so that's not much but anyway, I've found out that I'm as capable of feeling spiritual as when I was a christian. And that without any supernatural beliefs. Whenever I'm feeling down I use it to encourage myself. When I'm telling myself not to give up an and that there still is hope it makes me feel spiritual. It really helps me when I'm deppresed. It sort of helps me transcend the entire situation. I don't need any Gods any superstition to make myself feel spiritual.

 

Certain thoughts or ideas or types of music also makes me feel spiritual. Some thoughts which really makes me feel spiritual is to think about humanity or the human civilization or the mere existense of life. It seems for me nearly miraculous. I mean it's far from certain that any of it should exist at all. The entire scenario seem so weird, but I find it really inspiring. Also the last 200 years makes me feel awe. I mean the developement which have occured the last 200 is unheard of. Nobody could possibly have predicted the industrial revolution, world wars, rise and fall of communism. For me it seems like the unfolding of fantastic story. It makes me feel spiritual to think about it.

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You're doing just fine. The next step is to understand that, while you have been searching for something, you should be searching for nothing. Or, put another way, the next step is to understand that you have been searching for nothing all along.

 

"...disillusionment belongs to what in various spiritual traditions is known as the via negativa or negative path wherein salvation or enlightenment is achieved less by direct discovery and affirmation of the truth than by seeing through the veil of Maya, the pseudo-truths that we mistake for it; less through knowledge (gnosis) of the one true faith than by transcending the counterfeit creeds that stand in the way of any genuine salvation by faith and by grace; and less by direct discovery of the true self than by fighting free of the false selves that are its masquerades.

 

The sort of "knowing" and "belief" that must be therapeutically surpassed refers to what may otherwise be described as dogma, ideology or reification, or as an alienated or undialectical consciousness (characteristic of what Klein called the paranoid-schizoid position.) It concerns the human proclivity to take one's stories and oneself entirely seriously, thus succumbing to what Nietzsche called the spirit of solemnity characteristic of those whom Jean-Paul Sartre called les salauds (a difficult term to translate, although perhaps "the bastards" or "stuffed shirts" will suffice)."

 

Even the rabid dogmatist and anti-Semite, Martin Luther, spoke of this "dark night of the soul", this period of disillusionment, through which we all must pass.

 

"God works by contraries so that a man feels himself to be lost in the very

moment when he is on the point of being saved. When God is about to

justify a man, he damns him. Whom he would make alive he must first kill.

God's favor is so communicated in the form of wrath that it seems furthest

when it is at hand. Man must first cry out that there is no health in him. He

must be consumed with horror. This is the pain of purgatory . . . In this

disturbance salvation begins. When a man believes himself to be utterly

lost, light breaks."

 

- Martin Luther

 

We are all Jesus nailed to the cross, spirits trapped in matter, crying out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" But God never left us. We left God for religion and other man made pursuits.

 

"Because we are not capable of knowing what God is but only what He is not, we cannot contemplate how God is but only how He is not."

 

"This is the ultimate in human knowledge of God: to know that we do not know Him."

 

- St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

 

"Meister Eckhart...the greatest of the European intellectual mystics, a man who deeply influenced Hegel and Fichte, in our own day worked upon Heidegger and who appeals to Japanese Zen-Buddhists as a kindred spirit. In his mystical theology, his speculative thinking, his pastoral advice and his preaching he abolishes Holy Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Church no less sublimely than Dante.

Eckhart grew up in 'the terrible time without an emperor', the Great Interregnum following the death of Frederick II.

Peace, says Eckhart, is to be found nowhere but in the soul, in the empire within, from which all that is hampering must be expelled. This explains why the soul 'should eject from itself all holy things'. But even this was not enough. The soul must also eject all images of God: then, and only then, will the cleansed and liberated soul, wholly immersed in the pure Godhead which is nothingness, beyond all concepts, attain tranquility. 'Every empire has its distinctive coat of arms. The Roman Empire has the golden eagle, the Franks have their lillies on a sky-blue ground. The sign of the kingdom of heaven and of the Christian is the cross, which stands on no colored ground but in light itself.' The soul must bear the cross and itself become the 'Son'. The soul itself must become God, must absorb into itself the fullness of the trinity."

 

- The Holy Roman Empire

by Friedrich Heer (p. 106-7)

 

"The ultimate leap you take is the leaving of god, the folk god. Break through that veil of conditioning and you get to the elementary idea."

 

- Meister Eckhart

 

"...let's say that our starting point

is that we forget what we know, or think we know, and

that we suspend judgment about practically everything,

returning to what we were when we were babies when we had

not yet learned the names or the language."

 

- Taoism by Alan Watts

 

"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

Matthew 18:3

 

"Unless you can live, love and work without a why, you haven't learned to live and love, or work and why. If a person's work is to live, it must come from the depths of him or her -- not from alien sources outside oneself -- but from within."

 

- Meister Eckhart

 

"I have occasionally spoken of a light in the soul which is uncreated and uncreatable. . . . This light is not satisfied with the simple, still and divine being which neither gives nor takes, but rather it desires to know from where this being comes. It wants to penetrate to the simple ground, to the still desert, into which distinction never peeped, neither Father, Son nor Holy Spirit. There, in that most inward place, where everyone is a stranger, the light is satisfied, and there it is more inward than it is in itself, for this ground is a simple stillness which is immovable in itself. But all things are moved by this immovability and all the forms of life are conceived by it..."

 

- Meister Eckhart

 

"The kingdom is like a certain woman who was carrying a jar full of meal.

While she was walking on the road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke.

The meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realise it; she had noticed no accident.

When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty."

 

- Jesus of Nazareth

Gospel of Thomas 97

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When I left xtianity, I felt disconnected from life because everyone I knew at the time were still going to church. I gained some self-respect by reading 'Farewell To God' by Charles Templeton. I had known my whole life that he had left xtianity, particularly the Billy Graham ministry, before it was such, and from reading that book I began to understand that it was ok not to be a Christian and it was ok not to believe in the xtian version of God. This left a spiritual void until i also began to find ways to replace that feeling with myself--I began to have confidence in myself, I relied more upon my own judgment than by waiting for God to 'tell' me what to do. Waiting upon the Lord leaves one hungry, unemployed, and severely depressed.

 

I spent a few years wandering from one religion to the next thinking I would find the right connection if only I could find the right god, The True God®. What I found were more mewlings from self-appointed disciples and priests. Some religions can be filling. I have a leaning towards paganism. It is not paganism by instruction or in opposition towards xtianity, such as Satanism, but a naturalistic appreciation for life that does not include xtian doctrine or pagan taught. Naturalism can take the place of spirituality and it can be a source of spiritual growth.

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Having been raised in fundamentalist Baptist Christianity, making my way out of that and disentangling my longing for spirituality from my wanting the approval of my parents (the fundys) has been the task of a lifetime for me.

 

It took many years, but I think the breakthrough for me was reading Spinoza's Ethics in the early 90s and then gradually going towards Buddhism and the teachings of Advaita Vedanta Hinduism. There is something about these teachings that appeals to my deepest feelings.

 

I still have enormous problems with commitment to anything and with organized religion, but I know more what it is I am wanting and what I am doing now as opposed to what other people want me to do and believe.

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I often turn to good literature for my spiritual connection. Be it in the beauty of the prose--currently, Atlas Shrugged has eaten up much of my life-- or the subtle thoughts behind the work, like Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, that open my mind to bigger things. I get elevated to a level of appreciation and thought that I usually pass by.

 

Once my mind opens like that, the sheer awe and wonder of this world and life itself rushes in, and I get to bask in that strange gift. It's not necessarily a spiritual experience, but it shakes me to the core. And that's worth the cost of admission.

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Try Zen. It doesn't require a god.

 

One thing it will tell you is that if you try to grasp joy it will leave.

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I still struggle with having no sprituality. It gets to the point where a lot of my family tells me without their God I am nothing. Maybe it isn't sprituality your looking for, but peace of mind. I wish I could bottle it and give it to you, but I can't. I hope you can find it though, and the forums may help you with that. Welcome.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Join the club, I've had the same thing happen to me and I'm sick to death of searching for something. I'm beginning to feel hopeless, alone, and depressed. I want to believe in gods. I left christianity after a 25 year run just 2 months ago, and I went to my Paganism. I used to be Wiccan, but I am having just as much problem believing in this as I do with christianity.

 

"Once you've lost everything you have the freedom to do anything." (Fight Club)

 

Perhaps.

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Oh wow, I'd forgotten I'd even posted this until I came here looking for something else! Thankyou so much for all your replies, so much interesting and helpful to think about.

 

I took a breather during my spiritual crisis and packed away all my pagan stuff into the loft, took a break from my druidry course etc. Let it all go, the striving to find "something", the trying to work out what sort of person I really am, the seeking for truth and to know what is genuine.

 

I feel much more steady now, I am not doing anything or wishing to believe anything I don't. I have found some pleasure in bringing some aspects of paganism into my life without trying to buy into a package of beliefs. I even reinstated my altar, just setting out things that have meaning to me personally, and represent different aspects of the natural world which I love and which feels like parent or home to me. Maybe in time I will come to believe in some kind of supernatural element to life, if I do I do, but if I don't I don't, and I am no longer seeking it or striving after it. I can celebrate the seasons and the beauty of the world around me.

 

And I realised that I don't have to struggle to work out what sort of person I am. I can choose! This is new to an ex-Christian, yes?! My trying to work out what was right for me had replaced my trying to work out what God wanted (which paralysed me for years and caused me to make some really bad life choices). Now I am going with the flow more and being bolder and able to experiment and learn.

 

It is fun! I don't have to worry whether it's okay to cherry pick what I like from druidry and discard what doesn't work for me or I don't believe in, I can add to that a twist of buddhism and a hefty dose of yoga (love, love, love) and so on (and it doesn't matter if I don't believe in Kundalini energy, if the yoga makes me feel good and uplifts and energises me) and even shamanic journeying (cos I don't have to believe I'm really in the Shamanic Lowerworld, I believe I'm travelling inside my own psyche) and so on......

 

Another step forward.... plod, plod, plod.... on the long and winding road to learning how to live without religion.

 

Now if only my sister hadn't lent me that bloody book "The Shack". And I didn't have to suffer the daily pain of seeing my husband devoting himself to a false God. Etc etc.

 

Onwards.......

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I don't have to worry whether it's okay to cherry pick what I like from druidry and discard what doesn't work for me or I don't believe in, I can add to that a twist of buddhism and a hefty dose of yoga (love, love, love) and so on (and it doesn't matter if I don't believe in Kundalini energy, if the yoga makes me feel good and uplifts and energises me) and even shamanic journeying (cos I don't have to believe I'm really in the Shamanic Lowerworld, I believe I'm travelling inside my own psyche) and so on......

I totally know what you mean, Autonomous. I crossed over to the "atheist" side of the Dawkins Scale not too long ago, but I still get a tremendous kick out of pagan ritual. Anything that makes you feel good... Makes you feel good. Shaman journeys are a spectacular workout for the imagination, and a great way to concentrate one's attention, too.

 

Using ritual to focus is also an excellent way to determine how you really feel about something. Things that are vitally important to you will create a more intense experience, and walking through a situation in your imagination does help bring things to a head and "mature" them.

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And I realised that I don't have to struggle to work out what sort of person I am. I can choose! This is new to an ex-Christian, yes?! My trying to work out what was right for me had replaced my trying to work out what God wanted (which paralysed me for years and caused me to make some really bad life choices). Now I am going with the flow more and being bolder and able to experiment and learn.

 

A really good insight to have reached... having been an Ex-C for a year or so, it's a daily task to remember this. Thanks for pointing it out!

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  • 1 month later...

On rare occasions, I experience something like "spirituality." Awe and wonder, something larger than my life.

 

Sometimes it's from ancient history, or thinking about the chain of life (some of your relatives existed prior to the K-T event 65 million years ago). We are the beneficiaries of a long history of life; a fortunate happenstance.

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