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Goodbye Jesus

Abortion


Arctic

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hello, as many know I left xianty a little while ago and I have to make some changes on many different subjects,

but one issue am confused about is abortion am not sure whether to be pro life or pro choice,

when I was a xian I was strongly pro life for the reason that I felt life started at conception and that abortion was still terminating life, although be it future life,

my moral compass is still not well founded yet on many issues but this issue am not sure about, and I do not understand how this is a purely women's rights issue when where talking about a developing human,

am exactly sure how to word this thread but I just wanted to listen to what many people here believe so I may be able to formulate a better opinion on the subject and my own beliefs, about why you are pro choice or pro life,

 

I know this is a sensitive issue and I apologize if I offend anyone, but asking and listening to other's beliefs is vital to building a better and richer perspective for myself, and I appreciate anyone's input,

thank you.

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I am pro-choice up to the point of viability unless the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has a life-threatening disease and would die in utero or shortly after birth anyway.

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My opinion on this matter is fairly unpopular with both sides, I think. I completely disagree with the idea that it's solely the woman's body until the moment of birth, but I also disagree that conception = life. Also, I don't think that abortions should be used as an alternative birth control method. Therefore I muddle around in this gray area where everyone around me thinks I'm wrong and gets angry. :shrug:

 

Basically, in order for me to be completely okay with abortion, two things would have to happen.

1. Somebody clearly define when it stops being a fetus, and becomes a baby. Some babies have been born insanely pre-mature and are still able to survive via modern medicine, so the "viable life" option is still a little confusing to me. So I want someone to a definite point in development that makes sense on a scientific scale, and not just the "i don't want this baby" scale.

2. Let them only be allowed in cases of rape/incest, or endangerment to the mother's/baby's life. Again, I don't think they should be used as an alternative form of birth control, so if you don't want a baby, use a condom!! But of course, people who have gone through horrible trauma like rape shouldn't have to experience the aftermath if they don't wish to.

 

 

I wish there was a third option for bumper stickers and the like. "Pro-life," "Pro-choice," and "Abortion is a complex issue involving morally gray factors."

It would have to be a pretty big sticker.

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1. Somebody clearly define when it stops being a fetus, and becomes a baby. Some babies have been born insanely pre-mature and are still able to survive via modern medicine, so the "viable life" option is still a little confusing to me. So I want someone to a definite point in development that makes sense on a scientific scale, and not just the "i don't want this baby" scale.

 

Until the point of viability, if a fetus was separated from its mother, even if it was put on life support, chances are, it would die very quickly. There are very few micropreemies that do survive, but they have lots of health problems throughout their lives just from being born so early. Here's a Wikipedia article on viability.

 

2. Let them only be allowed in cases of rape/incest, or endangerment to the mother's/baby's life. Again, I don't think they should be used as an alternative form of birth control, so if you don't want a baby, use a condom!! But of course, people who have gone through horrible trauma like rape shouldn't have to experience the aftermath if they don't wish to.

 

There are lots of problems with this, though, one of them being that protection doesn't always work, even when it's used correctly. I've heard of people getting pregnant even when they've used two forms of contraception. It can happen. Another problem is that if you do what you proposed, then women who are in extremely desperate situations might try to take matters into their own hands and get seriously injured. Another "option" is having the baby and either giving it away or putting it in a dumpster, and even if the woman gives the baby to a legitimate person to raise, that child is probably going to be poorly nourished because the woman in question might not be able to afford prenatal care, and then that child has to grow up never knowing his parents, maybe becoming emotionally disturbed because of that, having trouble in school, maybe getting abused by the foster parents, etc. Of course, this last scenario is a hypothetical one, but it does happen, and it's very unfortunate. I don't support the idea of women getting multiple abortions because they don't know how to use birth control correctly, don't get me wrong. I think both men and women should be given education in that area. But one abortion that's done because birth control didn't work and the parents aren't financially ready to take care of a child? I have no problem with that. It's much better than the woman trying to induce an abortion herself or the child that's born having a hellish life that he never deserved in the first place. That's just my opinion, though, and you are certainly entitled to yours, as well. I'm not trying to invalidate your view on the matter.

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Basically, in order for me to be completely okay with abortion, two things would have to happen.

1. Somebody clearly define when it stops being a fetus, and becomes a baby. Some babies have been born insanely pre-mature and are still able to survive via modern medicine, so the "viable life" option is still a little confusing to me. So I want someone to a definite point in development that makes sense on a scientific scale, and not just the "i don't want this baby" scale.

2. Let them only be allowed in cases of rape/incest, or endangerment to the mother's/baby's life. Again, I don't think they should be used as an alternative form of birth control, so if you don't want a baby, use a condom!! But of course, people who have gone through horrible trauma like rape shouldn't have to experience the aftermath if they don't wish to.

 

Pretty much what I think too. That said, yes it's a tough topic, whether you're atheist, reasonable believer, or morontheist.

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Don't apologize. We seem to get an annual discussion on abortion around here.

I am strongly pro-choice now, and quite active with some abortion rights organizations. However I was raised catholic, in a catholic country in central america (El Salvador). I was prolife during that time, though hesistant on some points such as rape or incest. Abortion was illegal in the country, for ANY reason.

What mainly caused my shift in beliefs was when I decided to study the subject more in depth.

One of the things that got to me were the number of women that died from illegal abortion each year. 80,000 roughly per year. In countries where abortion is illegal the rates are just as high. Wealthy women can travel abroad for the procedure while those who have no means suffer have no choice but back alley abortions.

 

Since I started work with pro choice groups I've gained personal insight into why choices are made and heard a lot of stories that pretty much have convinced me.

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I wish there was a third option for bumper stickers and the like. "Pro-life," "Pro-choice," and "Abortion is a complex issue involving morally gray factors."

It would have to be a pretty big sticker.

 

Seconded!

 

For me there is what I would personally feel comfortable with and then what I feel is still probably moral overall. Somewhere around the beginning of the second trimester when it starts looking more like a tiny person and less like a blob. It starts moving and such. I think that would be the point of no return for me. However, I don't really think that has to apply to others. My line there is viability. If a fetus could reasonably (with some help) be able to survive outside the womb then you have NO business killing it.

 

As for using it as birth control. Well that's just bullshit. What's the use in even arguing about that? Unless you are gonna stop every woman going into an abortion clinic and force her to tell you her story to make sure that it fits your own standards then just forget it. Idiots who would actually have abortions on a regular basis instead of properly using birth control do NOT need to be parents anyway.

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Guest Davka

Viability can be tricky, since medical science is constantly moving the bar. I prefer brainwave activity. This is the standard we use for death, why not also for life?

 

Brainwave activity begins somewhere around 6 weeks after conception. It's a narrow window, I know. But this seems to me to be one of those "err on the side of caution" issues.

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1. Somebody clearly define when it stops being a fetus, and becomes a baby. Some babies have been born insanely pre-mature and are still able to survive via modern medicine, so the "viable life" option is still a little confusing to me. So I want someone to a definite point in development that makes sense on a scientific scale, and not just the "i don't want this baby" scale.

 

Until the point of viability, if a fetus was separated from its mother, even if it was put on life support, chances are, it would die very quickly. There are very few micropreemies that do survive, but they have lots of health problems throughout their lives just from being born so early. Here's a Wikipedia article on viability.

 

That article was helpful, thanks. I live with a bunch of religious folks, so hearing facts get twisted around and nitpicked to death can make it a little hard to think clearly about an issue. The point of viability makes more sense to me now, but is there a specific month/week mark that people typically go by?

 

2. Let them only be allowed in cases of rape/incest, or endangerment to the mother's/baby's life. Again, I don't think they should be used as an alternative form of birth control, so if you don't want a baby, use a condom!! But of course, people who have gone through horrible trauma like rape shouldn't have to experience the aftermath if they don't wish to.

 

There are lots of problems with this, though, one of them being that protection doesn't always work, even when it's used correctly. I've heard of people getting pregnant even when they've used two forms of contraception. It can happen. Another problem is that if you do what you proposed, then women who are in extremely desperate situations might try to take matters into their own hands and get seriously injured. Another "option" is having the baby and either giving it away or putting it in a dumpster, and even if the woman gives the baby to a legitimate person to raise, that child is probably going to be poorly nourished because the woman in question might not be able to afford prenatal care, and then that child has to grow up never knowing his parents, maybe becoming emotionally disturbed because of that, having trouble in school, maybe getting abused by the foster parents, etc. Of course, this last scenario is a hypothetical one, but it does happen, and it's very unfortunate. I don't support the idea of women getting multiple abortions because they don't know how to use birth control correctly, don't get me wrong. I think both men and women should be given education in that area. But one abortion that's done because birth control didn't work and the parents aren't financially ready to take care of a child? I have no problem with that. It's much better than the woman trying to induce an abortion herself or the child that's born having a hellish life that he never deserved in the first place.

 

lol, right on. Like I said, both sides usually disagree with me on this. All of those things you mentioned seem like they're on the extreme end of possibilities though, and I know several people who have had very positive experiences with adoption. I consider that a great option for people who aren't ready for children yet, but still have found themselves in that position. Ironically, when medical insurance companies reject those extremely desperate women, religious organizations offer great support and assistance with providing prenatal care, medical costs, and access to reputable adoption companies.

 

I guess the main reason I balk at looser definitions and restrictions is that it feels like doing so would make it seem like no big deal to get an abortion. "You'd rather save up for a car than a baby? Abort!" I understand that there are some people who honestly can't afford to raise a child, but it would be extremely difficult to legislate the difference. To me, it's a heavy issue that flirts rather subjectively with the line between a medical procedure and ending a human life. That line makes me squeamish, and I see adoption as a much safer alternative (as long as no one's life or mental health is endangered by the pregnancy, of course).

 

That's just my opinion, though, and you are certainly entitled to yours, as well. I'm not trying to invalidate your view on the matter.

 

Ditto. :)

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I understand many put a high value on the mother, which is perfectly reasonable but what value do you assign the fetus? Because sometimes it bothers me when some talk as if it has almost little value and can just be aborted if one feels its to hard to go through or deal with,

 

also I know a rather direct question but would you be content if your mother decided to abort you? even if your upbringing was going to be hell?

 

for example, my father's mother got pregnant at 15, in her time she could not get a abortion but would have, but instead had my father, who in turn married my mother and had me and my brother, and am very grateful to be alive but if abortion was allowed back in her day, my father would not be here and I would not be here,

 

so sometimes when I think about supporting abortion, I feel like am in someway supporting me not existing.

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I'm so pro-choice that I'll sometimes accept the label "pro-abortion", depending on the circumstances. Thoughts I've had on the matter, listed in no particular order, and not particularly organized:

 

By accident of biology, pregnancy (and thus, abortion) take place in the ground of a woman's body. There just isn't any getting around that, until we figure out how to transplant fetuses into men's bodies. This is why it's a woman's issue and a woman's choice.

 

As a woman I never want to find myself in a position where I am compelled to bear someone's child against my will. Compulsory pregnancy would reduce women to the status of incubators.

 

As a woman I have a pretty good idea what the impact of pregnancy would be on myself and my life. If I were willing to become a mother, that would be one thing; I'd take the impact and any risks involved by my own choice. But I'm not willing to be a mother. Not now, not ever. I'm not willing to undergo the physical burden of pregnancy, nor take on its risks. Thus I want abortion to be available as a line of final defense, so to speak.

 

Abortion is a form of birth control by definition, as it prevents a live birth from happening. Thus I don't actually get the common criticism of women who "use abortion as a form of birth control". Well, a woman who gets an abortion is exercising a birth control option by default. I frankly don't care how many times she decides to use that particular one...

 

...even though I certainly think an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure, and thus am a staunch advocate of birth control, comprehensive sex ed, and easy access to abortion where women and our health care providers deem necessary.

 

I find family planning as a whole to be one piece of a larger feminist puzzle. Without the ability to plan how large our families are, when and where and why we wish to have children (if ever), women's health, education, ability to work, and economic status is at the mercy of her biology (and her partner's).

 

I don't go for the idea that the way to prevent abortions is for women to stop having sex. Nor do I believe that consent to sex equates to consent to pregnancy. It does not. One leads from the other, but the two are not the same thing.

 

A woman outranks a fetus.

 

None of this covers every possible issue or thought. There's always more.

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also I know a rather direct question but would you be content if your mother decided to abort you? even if your upbringing was going to be hell?

 

Well if anyone's mother had aborted them, how would they know? It's kind of a moot question: I never would have existed to form a consciousness aware enough to decide whether or not I cared in the first place.

 

But if you're asking would I be content now to go back in time or something like that: yes, I would be content with it.

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Just curious Gwenmead....if a prospective mother changes her mind as she starts labor...is it OK to kill the fetus? What about 1 week before the due date? What about if the head is already out of the vaginal canal? Do you think if someone beats an expectant mother that wants the child a week before she is due and causes the death of the baby that they should be responsible for the death of the baby or just be guilty for roughing up the mom, a likely misdemeanor?

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Guest QuidEstCaritas?
Just curious Gwenmead....if a prospective mother changes her mind as she starts labor...is it OK to kill the fetus? What about 1 week before the due date? What about if the head is already out of the vaginal canal? Do you think if someone beats an expectant mother that wants the child a week before she is due and causes the death of the baby that they should be responsible for the death of the baby or just be guilty for roughing up the mom, a likely misdemeanor?

 

I know you didn't ask me, but I think that if a prospective mother changes her mind as she starts labor then the abortionist should grab the fetus and toss it over his shoulder into the nearby ice-chest for an eeevil barbecue later that night. With beer and pringles on the side of course.

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Just curious Gwenmead....if a prospective mother changes her mind as she starts labor...is it OK to kill the fetus? What about 1 week before the due date? What about if the head is already out of the vaginal canal? Do you think if someone beats an expectant mother that wants the child a week before she is due and causes the death of the baby that they should be responsible for the death of the baby or just be guilty for roughing up the mom, a likely misdemeanor?

 

I know you didn't ask me, but I think that if a prospective mother changes her mind as she starts labor then the abortionist should grab the fetus and toss it over his shoulder into the nearby ice-chest for an eeevil barbecue later that night. With beer and pringles on the side of course.

That's some sense of humor you've got there..

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But if you're asking would I be content now to go back in time or something like that: yes, I would be content with it.

 

There is no afterlife. Or beforelife. This is the only life. ...I'm at a loss for what to say to convince you that your life is more valuable than you currently think. As it is, I think your living in an... intense cognitive dissonance.

 

(rant)

Fuck no I would not be content with my mother having aborted me, are you kidding? Its MY LIFE and no one has the right to take it from me. FUCK that. It gives me the fucking chills when I think about how vulnerable I was in the womb. Honestly, if I found out that I had been born ONLY because Tiller's clinic had been shut down due to his MURDER, do you honestly think I would be anything but utterly relived/thankful/JOYFUL for my luck?! I might even have sent a letter to the jailed killer condemning him for the murder but thanking him for my life! I would even be OK with someone having compelled my mother to carry me to term. Relations would have been a wee bit strained when I found out the circumstances of my worldly arrival, but hey, I'd be ALIVE to experience it.

 

Now, alright, if my birth meant my mother's death I wouldn't blame her for doing what she had to do -- although I do believe an experience like that would have wrecked her utterly. Fine. Other than that, fuckno. Had I been a mutant fetus whose ability was to project my future self to affect present reality and my mother was attempting to abort me, well, lol, you can imagine what havoc my little fetus self would wreak in that clinic. Think 'Cable' from Xmen meets 'Jack' from The Incredibles.

(/rant)

 

In a slightly different tone...

 

"Thermo-dynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible, like oxygen spontaneously becoming gold. I long to observe such a thing.

 

And yet, in each human coupling, a thousand million sperm vie for a single egg. Multiply those odds by countless generations, against the odds of your ancestors being alive; meeting; siring this precise son; that exact daughter... Until your mother loves a man she has every reason to hate, and of that union, of the thousand million children competing for fertilization, it was you, only you, that emerged. To distill so specific a form from that chaos of improbability, like turning air to gold... that is the crowning unlikelihood. The thermo-dynamic miracle.

 

But the world is so full of people, so crowded with these miracles that they become commonplace and we forget... We gaze continually at the world and it grows dull in our perceptions. Yet seen from another's vantage point, as if new, it may still take the breath away.

 

Come... dry your eyes, for you are life, rarer than a quark and unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints most clearly"

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also I know a rather direct question but would you be content if your mother decided to abort you? even if your upbringing was going to be hell?

 

I wouldn't exist to be content. :grin:

 

Seriously, I wouldn't mind at all. I am pro choice for all of the reasons previously listed, but I also consider the fact that we have too many people alive right now anyway. The planet can not handle the population doubling in size every 50 years. Adoption is a nice thought, but it does nothing for the overpopulation problem. While I do not advocate abortion as a birth or population control, we do have to consider this fact.

 

I, personally, will favor the rights of someone who is already here over an unborn fetus. If there were only 1.5 billion people on the planet, I may feel differently. But at some point we have to consider the quality of life for people already living. Now, changing euthanasia laws could help alleviate some of this, but only for the extremely sick and dying anyway...

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I think that it helps to research the issue thoroughly before making up one's mind.

 

I personally would not want to have an abortion, but I don't think the government should legislate what happens with women's bodies. Especially if their lives are at risk if they don't have one, or they were raped. IMO governments that don't take those 2 issues into account and want to ban all abortion are not being fair-minded.

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Pro-choice, with reluctance. I don't think I could do it myself, but its not up to me to sit in judgment upon the circumstances that compel others to get an abortion. If not done in a clinic it will be done elsewhere under dangerous conditions.

 

I recently did some genealogical research and traced my family back to the 16th century. When you look at it on paper, its quite impressive the number of people who had to come together to produce this body. It was hundreds. If I were able to trace it further back, no doubt it would be thousands. It gave me a different perspective. Life is such an amazing process and continuity.

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One of the things that got to me were the number of women that died from illegal abortion each year. 80,000 roughly per year. In countries where abortion is illegal the rates are just as high. Wealthy women can travel abroad for the procedure while those who have no means suffer have no choice but back alley abortions.
I've also heard that countries where abortion is legal everywhere have less pregnancy rates than those that do because the nations where abortion is legal also have comprehensive sex ed instead of teaching abstinence only.

 

By accident of biology, pregnancy (and thus, abortion) take place in the ground of a woman's body. There just isn't any getting around that, until we figure out how to transplant fetuses into men's bodies. This is why it's a woman's issue and a woman's choice.
While I agree that it's ultimately the decision of women, I don't think that men should have no say on the matter. If a couple engaged in sex and a woman got pregnant as a result, then was not the man just as responsible for helping to create the fetus? It also seems like a double standard to me that men should be expected to not have a say in the matter, but if the woman decides to go through with the pregnancy, the man is expected to raise the same fetus he's also not allowed to voice an opinion about. Is the fetus a product of both the woman and man or not? Is the father going to be part of any possible child's life or not? If a man suggested women should not have a say in the matter, they would be accused of being sexist, but for women to do the opposite is feminism? I'm not trying to say that you're being sexist or anything like that, so I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying I don't understand this argument that some people make that men should not have a say about a fetus they helped to make as it seems like a double standard to me.

 

also I know a rather direct question but would you be content if your mother decided to abort you? even if your upbringing was going to be hell?
I would be content with it in the same sense that I would be content if my mother had a naturally caused miscarriage that was beyond her control. I'm glad to be alive but I also try to be understanding that sometimes life doesn't work out the way we expect it to.
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I am pro-choice up to the point of viability unless the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has a life-threatening disease and would die in utero or shortly after birth anyway.

Almost exactly my position too.

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Some folks here have commented on what a terrible thing it would have been had they or one of their parents been aborted. Frankly, this makes no sense to me. I love life, but had I never been born, so what? One doesn't miss what one never had, what one was never aware of. If you never existed as an autonomous human being, you simply wouldn't know anything about it. Do you miss not having been alive 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10,000, etc? This has no meaning.

 

This seems to be tied up with the "sanctity" of life idea. I don't believe in gods so I don't see life as sacred or sanctified. Life is just life. It's nice to have, if you have it, but you can't miss something you never had. Paraphrasing Mark Twain, I was dead for billions of years before I was born, but I don't recall it being any inconvenience. I guess I'm saying that if my mother had aborted me for some reason. I would never be aware of that fact so it certainly could never matter to me. It's like, ummm, so what?

-WizenedSage

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I'm so pro-choice that I'll sometimes accept the label "pro-abortion", depending on the circumstances. <snip> A woman outranks a fetus.

Gwen, have I told you lately how much I heart you? :wub:

 

Seriously, what she said. On an issue so riddled with hysterical rhetoric and emotional pit-traps, I'm not only willing but happy to play the part of ruthlessly pragmatic bastard. An embryo, a fetus, an unborn baby =/= a person, period. That it may become one in time is irrelevant. The will of a living, breathing woman trumps the vicariously-granted "rights" of an almost-a-person any day, but nothing. I don't care what the contributing factors may be or what her reasons are, and the timeline makes no difference. Whether it's five days, five weeks or five months after the pregnancy began, if a woman doesn't want to carry a pregnancy to term, it's her right to terminate it.

 

Pro-choice, with reluctance. I don't think I could do it myself, but its not up to me to sit in judgment upon the circumstances that compel others to get an abortion. If not done in a clinic it will be done elsewhere under dangerous conditions.

Of course I'd be remiss if I didn't state here how much I heart you too, Deva. :wub:

 

If only more people understood the issue as you do. You don't have to like abortion. Nobody likes abortion. It's an unpleasant situation regardless of how you look at it. The idea there exist women who are on a first-name basis with the clinic staff who have a regular appointment scheduled for every Friday and Saturday night is absolutely false. It's a vile, pernicious deception created by the likes of Rush Limbaugh in order to manipulate the emotions of the sheeple and misdirect their carefully-stirred anger toward the non-issue in their left hand while their right continues to rob them blind.

 

One needn't necessarily approve of a woman's decision to have an abortion so long as one understands it's her decision to make.

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I used to be strongly pro life up until the late 80's and then changed my mind.

 

The reason being, is because there are so many children who are born to parents, who either don't love them, don't raise them right, neglect them, abuse them, or all of the above.

 

My current position is that I support abortion rights, though partial birth abortions bother me.(Though I hear they're usually fairly rare, and if it would save the mother's life I have less of a problem with it.)

 

This has been touched on before, but what I strongly advocate is prevention. While it's true that two or more birth control methods can be used, and pregnancy still occurs, condoms, diaphrams, cervical caps, sponges, birth control pills etc, definitely reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies and thereby the need for abortions.

 

I know that I dont' want any children, so I've given some thought to getting a vasectomy, but , I think I'll wait until I get serious about pursuing a relationship with someone. If I get lucky before then, I'm using TWO condoms, can't be too safe you know.

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hello, as many know I left xianty a little while ago and I have to make some changes on many different subjects, but one issue am confused about is abortion am not sure whether to be pro life or pro choice, when I was a xian I was strongly pro life for the reason that I felt life started at conception and that abortion was still terminating life, although be it future life, my moral compass is still not well founded yet on many issues but this issue am not sure about, and I do not understand how this is a purely women's rights issue when where talking about a developing human, am exactly sure how to word this thread but I just wanted to listen to what many people here believe so I may be able to formulate a better opinion on the subject and my own beliefs, about why you are pro choice or pro life, I know this is a sensitive issue and I apologize if I offend anyone, but asking and listening to other's beliefs is vital to building a better and richer perspective for myself, and I appreciate anyone's input, thank you.

 

It would probably be best to pretend as if you've never heard of 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice' and then attempt to make up your mind about the different parts of the issue separately. Politics contaminate everything, but especially thoughts about abortion.

 

Your question, 'would you be OK with your mother aborting you?,' really struck a chord with me. It is an excellent way of demonstrating the personal connection we all have to our earliest existence. My answer is, of course, NO-get-the-fuck-away-from-that-knife-before-I-RIP-OUT-YOUR-HEART. I have a slightly less strong reaction toward other theoretical abortions, like a fox backed into a corner versus a fox watching a fox being backed into a corner, but it is still there. And that's because I, a human being, recognize that human beings (like myself) begin as embryos and end as elderly. Therefore I reject every halfass attempt (rounded up below) to rationalize the taking of a human life like mine without an incredible, extraordinary reason.

 

Misery

This one goes like this - oh, its ok (abortion) because the kid would have been miserable anyway. Well. In the words of House, living in misery sucks marginally less than dying in it.

 

Viability

'Viability' is a worthless concept, I suggest forgetting about that too. Its already been pointed out that technology determines the point of viability, so we can just assume that eventually humans will become able to survive outside the womb from their earliest developmental stage. And, just as strong, one human's dependence on another lessens the humanity of neither.

 

Population

Someone above posted that they're OK with not existing because the planet has too many people anyway. Oh, right? Ok then, go cut your throat this moment for the benefit of 'the planet.' We're all waiting. *taps foot* Go on! No? Not going to do it? Maybe you read that the planet can feed 65 billion people? Or maybe your life is actually worth more to you than you would have us believe? Perhaps both. I hope you'll forgive me for my forceful way of making this point.

 

Non-existence

As I was writing this, Wizened Sage responded indirectly to my wanting to live:

 

"Some folks here have commented on what a terrible thing it would have been had they or one of their parents been aborted. Frankly, this makes no sense to me. I love life, but had I never been born, so what? One doesn't miss what one never had, what one was never aware of. If you never existed as an autonomous human being, you simply wouldn't know anything about it. Do you miss not having been alive 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10,000, etc? This has no meaning.I guess I'm saying that if my mother had aborted me for some reason. I would never be aware of that fact so it certainly could never matter to me. It's like, ummm, so what?"

 

Wizened and others are treating your question disengenuously. The fact is that you, Wizened, are aware of the life you love NOW, and in lieu of that fact, would you be OK with never having lived? Saying that 'Oh, I would never have existed to notice the difference' is playing the fool and it won't hold the field. In fact, you did exist as a very small human, perhaps in a test tube, more likely in your mother's womb - too small to notice your life, but there is no doubt that it was in fact YOU.

 

Rank

"A woman outranks a fetus." We're ranking humans now? Does that turn the stomach of anyone else? 'Straights outrank Faggots,' 'Whites outrank blacks,' 'Christians outrank Jews,' 'Arabs outrank non-Arabs,' 'Brits outrank Non-Brits,' 'Men outrank Women,' -- turn the fucking monkey off for one second and think about what you're saying. You've got no right to rank anyone and you know it.

 

 

Can you see, Arctic, the religious flavor of these answers? Its called ideology, and it works like this: believe something on faith, then rationalize it by any means necessary. Some examples: opposition to gay marriage, Hell doctrine, belief in God.

I fully expect to be mocked for posting this, but someone had to.

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