It's Not That I'm Afraid Of God Not Existing, It's That I'm Afraid He Does.

[Rashshunal]

Since I'm an atheist, I thankfully don't have to worry about this, but theoretically speaking, what IF god does exist? It is a terrifying thought that a being who is so powerful and self-centered, conditional, malicious, and destructive exists. I'm sure many of us have been hit by Christian's using the "god saved the life of me, or someone I knew", or "god turned my life around when I was at my worst" argument, so you'll agree with me when I say my head wants to explode whenever I hear it.

 

Really? Is that so? Perhaps you can explain why god doesn't lend a hand to people like the ones in Africa, who cry themselves to sleep because they haven't had clean water or food for days. Or perhaps closer to home, the people who were in the tower on 911. We're so glad that god plays favorites enough that he couldn't muster a miracle to save the lives of hundreds of people, yet he cared enough for you to save YOU from a situation YOU dug yourself into.

 

A good example of this is the articles wrote by fundies who tried to justify the actions of their god in the tragedy.

As you might know, the head of one company survived 9/11 because he took his son to kindergarten.

Another fellow is alive because it was his turn to bring donuts.

Another lady was late because her alarm clock didn't go off on time.

One was late as a result of being stuck on the NJ Turnpike because of an auto accident.

One more survivor missed his bus.

One spilled food on her clothes and had to take time to change.

One's car wouldn’t start.

One went back to answer the telephone.

One had a child that dawdled and didn't get ready as soon as he should have.

One couldn't get a taxi.

The one that, struck me was the man who put on a new pair of shoes that morning,

went to work by his usual way but before he got there, he developed a blister on his foot.

So he stopped at a drugstore to buy a Band-Aid. That is why he is alive today.

 

If you're like me, you probably got a considerable amount of bile in the back of your throat from reading this straw-man argument.

I'm glad that god had the ability to stop a handful of people from dying in a tragedy that killed hundreds of people, you claim god was in many places, how come he didn't cause engine trouble with the planes that were hijacked but he was able to cause engine trouble to one person's car? How come he didn't give the passengers on board the plane the strength to fight back the terrorists that flew into the towers? Christians are more than happy to credit god to the good thing that happens, and the bad things "just happened because they happened"

 

Or perhaps you can explain the situations of people who attend Church every week like my mother who has to come back to the abusive nature of my father? How come you allow people like my father to come to church and act like a perfect Christian, and when he gets home calls my mother "bitch", and says, "I'm sick of this shit, you suck, I hate you". How many people come home to this, all the while being forced to put up with it because their religion demands it?

 

Like I said in the title, what I'm afraid of is not that god doesn't exist, and that there is no one in the world to save us from ourselves. It is that there is a god perfectly capable of ending the problems, yet does nothing except for those select few. It is like a government where the officials gets the food and treatment, while the rest are left to fend for themselves, still paying their tithes and attending church weekly.

 

The list of the crimes that the all powerful, all loving, all knowing, god of the universe who has existed forever is guilty of makes the most hardened criminal look like a perfect citizen. So, whenever a Christian tries to use this argument, laugh, or perhaps cry, at their foolishness and point out the flaws of their god who wasn't there, for they surely don't deserve the blind fold that religion has forced onto them. Peace.

[Ouroboros]

Since I'm an atheist, I thankfully don't have to worry about this, but theoretically speaking, what IF god does exist? It is a terrifying thought that a being who is so powerful and self-centered, conditional, malicious, and destructive exists. I'm sure many of us have been hit by Christian's using the "god saved the life of me, or someone I knew", or "god turned my life around when I was at my worst" argument, so you'll agree with me when I say my head wants to explode whenever I hear it.

If God exists, and he is evil, and he made sure you didn't get enough convincing evidence for his existence, then his purpose is for you to suffer the unbelief and get punished for it. So perhaps you just have to accept your role in life?

 

Religion does work as a framework for re-socialization of people, and as such it is just a workable too, but not necessarily that it therefore is true. It's just a semi-coherent system with which people can change behavior. Similar to therapy, except that it contains extra baggage.

[Skeptic]

Your signature is awesome.

 

Since I'm an atheist, I thankfully don't have to worry about this, but theoretically speaking, what IF god does exist? It is a terrifying thought that a being who is so powerful and self-centered, conditional, malicious, and destructive exists. I'm sure many of us have been hit by Christian's using the "god saved the life of me, or someone I knew", or "god turned my life around when I was at my worst" argument, so you'll agree with me when I say my head wants to explode whenever I hear it.

 

Agreed. I frequently say that I'm glad that the xian god doesn't exist, because if he did, I'd have a hell of a lot more to worry about than I already do. The reason why I think your signature is awesome is because I really identify with it. I questioned god's existence at an early age, starting when I was around four years old. I tried to buy into the delusion. I really did. I tried to read and understand the bible, pray, hear god's voice, all of that, and I "got saved" at least two or three times that I remember, but no matter how hard I tried, it just didn't stick for me. I grew up in a family full of fundies and they were constantly trying to make me into one of them but it just wasn't working. I was also physically and emotionally abused by my parents, bullied by peers on a regular basis, and I was being taught that demons were real by my parents and could and would fuck with me, and, for some reason, god chose to ignore that any of that shit was going on. If you pray for a new job or a sunny day, your prayer will most likely be answered, but try praying for god to get you out of an abusive situation, especially when the people abusing you are xians, and see what happens. I'll give you the Cliff's note version: nothing happens. You stay in the situation until you can legally get the fuck out of there, and then you're the one to do it, not some dumbass god. But yeah, if god actually did exist, I'd most likely be going to hell, not because I consciously chose to doubt god's existence, but because I just couldn't buy into it. I've also denied the holy spirit, so my ass is doomed. My parents, on the other hand, would be going to heaven because they can buy into the bullshit.

 

Really? Is that so? Perhaps you can explain why god doesn't lend a hand to people like the ones in Africa, who cry themselves to sleep because they haven't had clean water or food for days. Or perhaps closer to home, the people who were in the tower on 911. We're so glad that god plays favorites enough that he couldn't muster a miracle to save the lives of hundreds of people, yet he cared enough for you to save YOU from a situation YOU dug yourself into.

 

Precisely. Even if this god existed and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he existed, I still could not bring myself to worship the rat bastard because of this very reason. I'd rather burn in hell for eternity. I'd probably find more understanding among the people in hell anyway; I'd be a total social outcast in heaven. Heaven would be hell for me, which is ironic, I know, but it's true.

 

If you're like me, you probably got a considerable amount of bile in the back of your throat from reading this straw-man argument.

I'm glad that god had the ability to stop a handful of people from dying in a tragedy that killed hundreds of people, you claim god was in many places, how come he didn't cause engine trouble with the planes that were hijacked but he was able to cause engine trouble to one person's car? How come he didn't give the passengers on board the plane the strength to fight back the terrorists that flew into the towers? Christians are more than happy to credit god to the good thing that happens, and the bad things "just happened because they happened"

 

Or the bad things happened because of Satan, or because the people who died weren't close enough to god for him to save them. It's always someone else's fault, never god's. I say that if god exists, then it's all his fucking fault because he's omnipotent and he could change the situation without even breaking a sweat. He just chooses not to.

 

Or perhaps you can explain the situations of people who attend Church every week like my mother who has to come back to the abusive nature of my father? How come you allow people like my father to come to church and act like a perfect Christian, and when he gets home calls my mother "bitch", and says, "I'm sick of this shit, you suck, I hate you". How many people come home to this, all the while being forced to put up with it because their religion demands it?

 

I'm really sorry about the situation you and your mother had to put up with. My mom was also verbally abused by my dad. When I was a kid, I wished that they would get divorced, but I knew that since they were both fundies, that would never happen. They were both miserable people who ganged up on each other, and when that got boring, they ganged up on me. That is really stupid, though, that fundies criticize couples that get divorced. They focus on "making it work", and as long as you're "making it work", you'll get all the support you need. When you decide that it's not working, though, then they start criticizing you and you get the door slammed in your face. In situations like this, there's only one thing that I can say:

 

Like I said in the title, what I'm afraid of is not that god doesn't exist, and that there is no one in the world to save us from ourselves. It is that there is a god perfectly capable of ending the problems, yet does nothing except for those select few. It is like a government where the officials gets the food and treatment, while the rest are left to fend for themselves, still paying their tithes and attending church weekly.

 

Yep. Disgusting, isn't it?

 

I promised myself that I wouldn't get pissed off today, so I need to stop here, but this was a very good post. I hope to hear more from you.

[Guest Davka]

If God exists and is the self-absorbed sadist we see in the Bible, then you really, really don't want to spend eternity anyplace with him anyways. In fact, anyone that psychotic is probably lying about hell being a place of torment. It's more likely the other way around: heaven is the place where evil god gets to torment his sycophantic puppets for eternity, and hell is a big party where all the people who refused to play along are eating BBQ and partying down.

 

So don't sweat it. If there's no God, you're fine. If there is a God and God is truly good, you're fine. And if there is a God who is a total control freak into sadism, you're better off in hell with the rest of us. No matter how it turns out, you're fine.

 

It's the Christians who should be afraid.

[Thegodthatfailed]

I agree with what Davka said. IF the Xian god were real you would not want to be around him.

How could you ever trust an evil psychotic tyrant, much less spend eternity with him.

 

This just about sums it up here - http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/archive.html then click on "Scream for your God!"

[white_raven23]

Ah yes....the fortuitous "Near Miss" anecdotes christians like to trot out as "proof" of god.....

 

Well, WE HAVE ONE TOO!!!

 

http://news.aol.com/article/woman-missed-d...d-in-car/524138

 

What does THAT say about god, eh? It indicates, if he's real, then he's a fucking ASS and we are obligated by a superior evolved morality to defy and resist oppression by such beings wherever they may lurk.

[Pandora Moon]

If God exists and is the self-absorbed sadist we see in the Bible, then you really, really don't want to spend eternity anyplace with him anyways. In fact, anyone that psychotic is probably lying about hell being a place of torment. It's more likely the other way around: heaven is the place where evil god gets to torment his sycophantic puppets for eternity, and hell is a big party where all the people who refused to play along are eating BBQ and partying down.

 

So don't sweat it. If there's no God, you're fine. If there is a God and God is truly good, you're fine. And if there is a God who is a total control freak into sadism, you're better off in hell with the rest of us. No matter how it turns out, you're fine.

 

It's the Christians who should be afraid.

 

I have wondered myself whether hell is as bad as people make out it reminds of how Brave New World by Aldous Huxley ends

 

However if any of you want to get a place in both heaven & hell then go to these sites

Reserve a spot in Heaven

Reserve a spot in hell

[Vomit Comet]

One of my biggest fears is that all that shit will turn out to be true after all. And I would go to hell for having fallen away.

 

Yeah, some of you say that you'd be too proud to be willing to spend eternity in the presence of that asshole. That's awfully big talk if you ask me, because if hell is indeed real, those flames will melt that pride of yours right quick. You'll be begging to be let out of hell within mere minutes if not seconds, but the motherfucker will just laugh in your howling face. Therefore, if this shit turned out to be real, I'd take an eternity of kowtowing to the biggest asshole in the cosmos if it meant I wouldn't experience an eternal torment that not even the Marquis de Sade could wrap his mind around. Hell, I'll spend centuries sucking his cock and taking his almighty wads in the back of my throat if it means I won't have to experience such unfathomable pain and horror neverending. I mean, Jesus, isn't this economics 101 at work here?

 

I feel like I've taken one hell of a gamble, choosing agnosticism over fundamentalist bat-shit Christianity. God damn you, Pascal....

[Lola Getz]

That's awfully big talk if you ask me, because if hell is indeed real, those flames will melt that pride of yours right quick. You'll be begging to be let out of hell within mere minutes if not seconds, but the motherfucker will just laugh in your howling face.

How could you burn in hell if your body is rotting in a grave somewhere on earth? What exactly would there be to burn? Just sayin'.

[par4dcourse]

If there is a gawd I bet he wonders why we put .9 after our gas prices to make them seem smaller yet swallow a debt of trillions just like we knew what that number meant. Just sayin"......

[Thackerie]

If God exists and is the self-absorbed sadist we see in the Bible, then you really, really don't want to spend eternity anyplace with him anyways. In fact, anyone that psychotic is probably lying about hell being a place of torment. It's more likely the other way around: heaven is the place where evil god gets to torment his sycophantic puppets for eternity, and hell is a big party where all the people who refused to play along are eating BBQ and partying down.

 

So don't sweat it. If there's no God, you're fine. If there is a God and God is truly good, you're fine. And if there is a God who is a total control freak into sadism, you're better off in hell with the rest of us. No matter how it turns out, you're fine.

 

It's the Christians who should be afraid.

 

 

We need an "I like this" button on these forums, same as on the Main Blog threads (or a thumbs-up smilely). Because I like this and thoroughly agree.

[pitchu]

Ah yes....the fortuitous "Near Miss" anecdotes christians like to trot out as "proof" of god.....

 

Well, WE HAVE ONE TOO!!!

 

http://news.aol.com/article/woman-missed-d...d-in-car/524138

 

What does THAT say about god, eh? It indicates, if he's real, then he's a fucking ASS and we are obligated by a superior evolved morality to defy and resist oppression by such beings wherever they may lurk.

 

From the link:

 

In an unfortunate twist [of] fate, a woman who missed the Air France flight that crashed into the Atlantic last week has been killed in a car accident.

 

It was actually that woman god wanted dead, which was why he killed everyone on the flight, to be sure he got her, because god values thoroughness even more than miracles. But he forgot to check the passenger manifest first, even though he values meticulousness more than miracles. So he caused the auto accident which finally did her in, because god values stick-to-it-iveness even more than miracles.

 

He'll go far in his line of work.

 

[RationalOkie]

Ah yes....the fortuitous "Near Miss" anecdotes christians like to trot out as "proof" of god.....

 

Well, WE HAVE ONE TOO!!!

 

http://news.aol.com/article/woman-missed-d...d-in-car/524138

 

What does THAT say about god, eh? It indicates, if he's real, then he's a fucking ASS and we are obligated by a superior evolved morality to defy and resist oppression by such beings wherever they may lurk.

 

From the link:

 

In an unfortunate twist [of] fate, a woman who missed the Air France flight that crashed into the Atlantic last week has been killed in a car accident.

 

It was actually that woman god wanted dead, which was why he killed everyone on the flight, to be sure he got her, because god values thoroughness even more than miracles. But he forgot to check the passenger manifest first, even though he values meticulousness more than miracles. So he caused the auto accident which finally did her in, because god values stick-to-it-iveness even more than miracles.

 

He'll go far in his line of work.

 

 

It's a Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiracle that her husband survived the crash!

[Vomit Comet]

I feel compelled to repeat myself.

 

If the fundies are right after all (and the possibility that they are right remains my lingering nightmare), and at the Judgement you get tossed right into H-E-doublehockeysticks after bravely telling the Lard to his almighty face that he can fuck himself...

 

...virtually all of you would be begging for that nasty old tyrant's mercy by the two minute mark. Why the two minute mark? Because that's about how long it would take to get over the initial shock of being cast into a lake of fire so that the necessary cognition could come back on-line. (Were I a gambling man.) When someone says "I'd rather burn in hell than...", it's nothing but talk as far as I'm concerned. Just like those right wing radio talk show hosts who claim that waterboarding is no big deal. It isn't? Then put your money where your mouth is and try it.

 

Maybe you can withstand a car battery to your balls, or your fingernails being pried off with pliers. But flames, where the fifty-trillionth minute hurts just as bad as the fifth minute and so on and so forth? I don't think so. Ever seen a living thing get burned alive? Why don't you light your dog on fire and listen to the horrible sounds it makes before it dies. Now imagine that it never dies, that it suffers like that for all eterni-fucking-ty. The next time I hear someone say "I'd rather burn in hell than..." with such earnesty, I'm going to post a big row of snarky emoticons in response. Example: :weirdo:

 

That is, unless you post a video of of you lighting yourself on fire with kerosene, thereby demonstrating to all the internet that you can take it. In other words, prove it or stuff it.

 

Sorry, it's just always been a pet peeve of mine, and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. I've already forgotten who recycled it this time around. It's just that... it's the one atheist internet meme that I regard with the absolute most incredulity, and I just gotta call bullshit from now on. It's empty words. Empty words.

 

Boy, do I got a hair up my ass today.

[Vomit Comet]

That said, a certain fundie theology student I was dear friends with (who had the most influence on how I personally viewed things while yet a fundie myself) seemed to take C.S. Lewis' 'The Great Divorce' rather seriously. He saw hell as being much like this present life, except that God is nowhere around. Basically, people just kind of live on, but without God, and they regret the choice they made. No sadistic torture or flames or demonic pitchfork ass-rape involved. Just life, but without God.

 

That doesn't sound too bad. I'd take that over eternal torment any day.

[SilentLoner]

I like these two vids on the subject - I find them helpful for some reason.

 

An Atheist Meets God

 

and

 

A Christian Meets The Invisible Pink Unicorn

[Skeptic]

That said, a certain fundie theology student I was dear friends with (who had the most influence on how I personally viewed things while yet a fundie myself) seemed to take C.S. Lewis' 'The Great Divorce' rather seriously. He saw hell as being much like this present life, except that God is nowhere around. Basically, people just kind of live on, but without God, and they regret the choice they made. No sadistic torture or flames or demonic pitchfork ass-rape involved. Just life, but without God.

 

That doesn't sound too bad. I'd take that over eternal torment any day.

 

If hell really does exist, that's what I'm betting that it is. The fire and brimstone version of hell makes no rational sense. Can souls feel physical pain? What I say specifically isn't that I'd rather burn in hell than go to heaven, although it does sound that way. What I mean is that I would rather think for myself and end up in hell for it rather than continue to try to believe in god when I know that I don't believe in him. I might end up in hell anyway because god can tell that I don't really believe the shit even though I tried hard to, so what's the point of living a life of trying hard to believe in god mostly to get into heaven when I'll just end up in hell anyway? If hell is just life without god, though, then that's not big deal. I can be without god for all eternity. The version that fundies use to scare us with, though? I'm not concerned about that one because it's totally irrational. If, by some freak chance, the fire and brimstone hell does exist and I got sent there and could feel physical pain, hell yeah it would be horrible. I would scream and beg and plead to be out of there without a doubt. I'm not saying that to try to be tough, it's just my view of the situation. I hope that answers your question.

[Thegodthatfailed]

I feel compelled to repeat myself.

 

If the fundies are right after all (and the possibility that they are right remains my lingering nightmare), and at the Judgement you get tossed right into H-E-doublehockeysticks after bravely telling the Lard to his almighty face that he can fuck himself...

 

...virtually all of you would be begging for that nasty old tyrant's mercy by the two minute mark. Why the two minute mark? Because that's about how long it would take to get over the initial shock of being cast into a lake of fire so that the necessary cognition could come back on-line. (Were I a gambling man.) When someone says "I'd rather burn in hell than...", it's nothing but talk as far as I'm concerned. Just like those right wing radio talk show hosts who claim that waterboarding is no big deal. It isn't? Then put your money where your mouth is and try it.

 

Maybe you can withstand a car battery to your balls, or your fingernails being pried off with pliers. But flames, where the fifty-trillionth minute hurts just as bad as the fifth minute and so on and so forth? I don't think so. Ever seen a living thing get burned alive? Why don't you light your dog on fire and listen to the horrible sounds it makes before it dies. Now imagine that it never dies, that it suffers like that for all eterni-fucking-ty. The next time I hear someone say "I'd rather burn in hell than..." with such earnesty, I'm going to post a big row of snarky emoticons in response. Example: :weirdo:

 

That is, unless you post a video of of you lighting yourself on fire with kerosene, thereby demonstrating to all the internet that you can take it. In other words, prove it or stuff it.

 

Sorry, it's just always been a pet peeve of mine, and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. I've already forgotten who recycled it this time around. It's just that... it's the one atheist internet meme that I regard with the absolute most incredulity, and I just gotta call bullshit from now on. It's empty words. Empty words.

 

Boy, do I got a hair up my ass today.

 

I understand how you could feel that way. It's like if some crazy-ass Fundy of whatever religion held a gun to my

head and threatened to pull the trigger if I didn't convert. I would convert in a heartbeat just to save my ass, but

it wouldn't be sincere.

 

But, even if you were back in the good graces of the Lard, how could you ever trust a being who

doesn't seem to mind tossing 90% of his favorite creations into a flaming torture pot forever.

How do you know he wouldn't just turn on you at some point in the future for whatever petty reason.

I suppose he could just take your free will and you would just be his slave forever, but you

would still have that fear in the back of your mind "I'd better not as much have a negative

thought about this lunatic or into the fire I go".

 

For what it's worth, I've read about a lot of alternative afterlife scenarios that all contradict

what traditional Xianity has to say, and they are pretty convincing in comparison.

I suggest starting with Robert Monroe's "Journey out of the body." and the "War in Heaven".

Both these books suggest it is actually a bad thing to have strong religious beliefs heading into

the afterlife and that you can end up spending time with some very manipulative beings if you believe

in the prevailing religious doctrines on earth. Also, I find there is just as strong evidence for

reincarnation if not more, as there is in an eternal heaven or hell. Can't go into all now, but

I think in the area of the next life, one theory is almost as good as the next. Hope that helps!

[Guest Davka]

So this guy dies and goes to Hell, where Satan is waiting to receive him. The Devil meets him in a golf cart, and tells him to hop in for the grand tour.

 

"Over on the left you can see our bungalows. We have AC, doughboy swimming pools, analog TV - not as good as Heaven by a long shot, but we manage. And here on the right is one of our golf courses. It's a little ratty around the edges, and it's not easy to keep the greens trimmed, because we're on a budget. Of course, Upstairs they have manicured greens, tropical settings, the whole nine yards - not that I'm complaining, we make due."

 

The guy is confused. "I thought this was a place of eternal torment?"

 

"Yeah, well, we get a lot of bad press. Mostly the torment is just knowing what kind of parties they get to have in the Other Place, what with caviar and champagne, while we're making due with cheese puffs and beer. But then, they don't have orgies Upstairs, so it kind of evens out."

 

Just then they come around a corner and off in the distance there's a huge, sulfurous pit filled with burning lava. Naked people are writhing in agony and shrieking as imps with pitchforks laugh horribly and stab at them with glee.

 

"Aha!" says the man, "I knew it! The rest of this is all a cruel hoax, isn't it? You just like to get our hopes up, you cruel bastard!"

 

The devil looks over at the pit and says "Oh, sorry, I forgot to tell you about that part. It's no big deal, really, nothing you need to worry about - we just put that in to keep the Baptists happy."

[Vomit Comet]

I hope that answers your question.

 

I reckon it does, and it does seem we see things in much the same light.

[Vomit Comet]

The devil looks over at the pit and says "Oh, sorry, I forgot to tell you about that part. It's no big deal, really, nothing you need to worry about - we just put that in to keep the Baptists happy."

 

 

BwaaaHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!! And to keep them roasted-toasted too, I trust!

[Vomit Comet]

I understand how you could feel that way. It's like if some crazy-ass Fundy of whatever religion held a gun to my head and threatened to pull the trigger if I didn't convert. I would convert in a heartbeat just to save my ass, but

it wouldn't be sincere.

 

While still a Pentecostal kook, I used to masturbate mentally to scenarios of a satanist or Islamist holding me at riflepoint, and me refusing to renounce Jesus and getting turned into swiss cheese for it. I had a dream once where I was standing up to NWO UN troops and they peppered me with submachine gun fire, and then the next thing you know I was ascending into glory, soaring up past the rose-colored clouds and into the light. I probably woke up from that one with a giant hard-on.

 

This last winter I was down in Rome. I took a tour of the catacombs, which had been something I'd always wanted to do as a Christian. Well, I went down into there as an agnostic, taking everything the priest said with a grain of salt. And I kept thinking to myself "where the fuck was the pay-off? Was it even worth it in the end? Having to endure all this shit, and for what?"

 

But, even if you were back in the good graces of the Lard, how could you ever trust a being who

doesn't seem to mind tossing 90% of his favorite creations into a flaming torture pot forever.

How do you know he wouldn't just turn on you at some point in the future for whatever petty reason.

I suppose he could just take your free will and you would just be his slave forever, but you

would still have that fear in the back of your mind "I'd better not as much have a negative

thought about this lunatic or into the fire I go".

 

I guess I figured that once saved folks got up on to hebbin, that the basis for such sinful thought crimes would evaporate. They would be transformed into perfected god-bots, 100% sin/doubt/imperfection free. So I figured there'd be no reason to be so paranoid and neurotic once I finally got there; everything would be gravy.

 

"In heaven / everything is fine..."

 

For what it's worth, I've read about a lot of alternative afterlife scenarios that all contradict

what traditional Xianity has to say, and they are pretty convincing in comparison.

I suggest starting with Robert Monroe's "Journey out of the body." and the "War in Heaven".

Both these books suggest it is actually a bad thing to have strong religious beliefs heading into

the afterlife and that you can end up spending time with some very manipulative beings if you believe

in the prevailing religious doctrines on earth. Also, I find there is just as strong evidence for

reincarnation if not more, as there is in an eternal heaven or hell. Can't go into all now, but

I think in the area of the next life, one theory is almost as good as the next. Hope that helps!

 

Whoa... this interests me. Got any pertinent web links?

 

I'm agnostic now but I harbor the suspicion that there is indeed a spirit world but that the cosmology of the Christian religion along with the other "majors" is but a distorted fragment. I wouldn't entertain the relativist "they're all right / equally valid / facets of the same jewel" shit, though. Call me a modernist, but....

[Thegodthatfailed]

Whoa... this interests me. Got any pertinent web links?

 

I'm agnostic now but I harbor the suspicion that there is indeed a spirit world but that the cosmology of the Christian religion along with the other "majors" is but a distorted fragment. I wouldn't entertain the relativist "they're all right / equally valid / facets of the same jewel" shit, though. Call me a modernist, but....

 

Yeah, sure here is one to Robert Monroe website on Out of body experiences- http://monroeinstitute.org/robert-monroe/

One for Bruce Moen- http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/start.html

And one here for "The War in Heaven" - http://www.zeitlin.net/EndEnchantment/WarInHeaven.html

As for reincarnation all of the above mention it as a condition when the afterlife state is completed.

Also this "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton. http://www.afterlife101.com/Journey_of_Souls.html

There are many more alternative accounts of the afterlife I know, but that should get you started.

Very fascinating indeed. They all seem to contradict most religious doctrine about life after death.

Robert Monroe even gives an account of a life(his life!) in what seems to be a parallel universe!

 

All this could be delusional hallucinatory mind tricks, but it is still interesting even if it is not true how the mind

could be so deceptive. I would say I am basically agnostic(but definitely atheist in regards to the Xian god,etc.),

but even some of these afterlife researchers are more atheistic in a Buddhistic sense of the word.

Hope some of this satisfies your curiosity.

[Malcolm Hutton]

I posted this story - http://www.algeria.com/forums/religion-rel...witch-hunt.html - in 'Where's Jesus' on Multiply this morning, having watched a documentary on the child witch hunts in Nigeria last night.

 

Extract: "But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush."

 

It wasn't long before a 'Christian' responded "HELPU: Wouldnt it make sense for satan to plant false ministers in the church and then motivate them to commit atrocious sins and after that blame God?"

 

I can hardly believe how twisted their thinking is, or the way they try to wriggle out of facts about Christianity.

 

Some Spiritualists explain the suffering as being due to 'karma'. In other words, Hell is on Earth, and the wicked are sent back to go through the suffering that they imposed on others in a previous lifetime. I know that the idea is repugnant, but can we rule it out? Children are so loveable and yet amongst them, we do find the odd ones who do grow up into horrendous monsters. Hitler and Stalin may have been adorable babies.