Living With A Fundamentalist Spouse

[finally_done]

I'm a woman who was in a similar situation......

 

My lawyer warned me that even if you feel almost certain that a divorce would be amiable, people going through one can become like totally different people- erratic, litigious and punitive- especially if they feel like they're in a position where they can judge and punish their spouse. This would concern me for you, because as a fundamentalist, it sounds like your husband might be more inclined to feel that he had the right to judge and punish you- by declaring you an unfit parent, trying to ruin your reputation in the community, or by making you jump through all sorts of petty requirements before he'll agree to sign things. I would hope that he wouldn't do that because he loves the children, but I wouldn't let that hope keep you from getting a very good lawyer right away if you decide to divorce. I didn't have children, and I imagine that some things will be different for you because of that, but I think you should still exercise the same caution and not be too quick to assume your husband will be cooperative. My ex-husband told our Christian friends that I'd cheated on him (not true) and told me that if I didn't let him keep the apartment, he would accuse me of abuse to his lawyer and thus drag out the divorce for another 6 months. Of course, all the while he was doing this, he was declaring that since I was the atheist, he was the victim.

 

I don't know how your husband is treating you now, but you say he doesn't respect or like you. Why would you stay with someone who doesn't respect you and shows no signs of changing? Because you believe in the sanctity of marriage? Or because you think you can get him to change? Or because you're afraid a divorce will hurt the kids? As for the last one, I will say that a divorce is not necessarily worse for children than growing up in a home where one or both parents is disrespected, hurt and disliked.

 

My parents did support my divorce because in the end, they put my happiness and safety above the fundamentalist idea that divorce should never happen. I don't know if yours are in a condition to be supportive or if you could help take care of them while they're ill while having a place to stay with them. But I will warn you, I did lose probably 95% of my Christian friends. My best friend told me I was going to hell (for the divorce, not the deconversion, because I wasn't out yet). Most other people just melted away. The leader of my small group at church never spoke to me again.

 

Now I am wondering why you felt like you had to go public with your deconversion right away. I'm not saying you should stay in the closet, but it might be easier for your family if you're not so outspoken about it until you are in a more stable place.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience, ClaraOlive. Hearing from others who have traveled the road out of Christianity has been very enlightening and helpful to me.

 

I appreciate your advice about getting a good lawyer if I go the divorce route. Being the person I am, compelled to research in depth anything that interests me or concerns me, I have read about the necessity for good representation in a divorce. I must say though that my husband is an extremely honest man (as much as a fundamentalist can be at any rate), so I would absolutely stake my life that he would never fabricate any false accusations against me. (I'm so sorry your husband did that to you - how horrible.) Besides, he knows that (as you said), most people we know will desert me and feel only sympathy for him when they discover I am no longer a Christian. That's just the way most fundamentalists think, you know -- separation from the "world" and all. In a sense, I see their point. It would be difficult to be **good** friends with people with whom you share no deep values about life and how to live it.

 

Another thing is that there is no way my husband would call me an unfit parent. He openly admits I have been a great mom and respects me for that (though privately saying my feminist, critical leanings have sadly influenced our kids away from the church). Still, he can't help but see how wonderfully our children are turning out -- and no judge could possibly think otherwise. I won't go into any details, but the kids are all great, and my husband is quite aware of this fact.

 

So why am I staying? Do we love each other? No. Do we even enjoy each other? Not often. Do we respect each other? In isolated ways. But we are a civil couple (except perhaps in emails!). So yes, it's for the kids. We've been doing this for 23 years already, and it will be a major upheaval for my younger children if I leave now. My older kids would handle it just fine, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm strongly considering sticking around for another few years for my younger ones.

 

Finally, I haven't really decided who and what and when I'm telling about my deconversion, except that I do need to tell my husband. He knows I've been intensely reading, researching, seeking, etc. for the last year especially, and the fact is I cannot keep faking the good Christian wife thing at church any more. I really think last week was my last time, so I had to tell him that -- and now he will want to know why -- and it's not as if I'm "afraid" to tell him (despite the lectures I know will be forthcoming). And me quitting church attendance will quickly become a public thing. That's the way it works in these circles, as we all know.

 

I guess continuing to go to church while disagreeing (inwardly disgusted and shaking my head at the pathetic emptiness of it all) would make it possible for me to maintain friendships (if my husband agreed to keep quiet about my lack of faith), but I really don't think I *can* do that any more. And those friendships would begin to seem shallow, wouldn't they, if I have to lie about my true feelings and thoughts? I've been trying to focus my friendships on things other than religion for years, but it's hard-going when that's what life IS to fundamentalists. Everything always comes back to God's will for them.

 

Up until now, I've made many choices and done a lot of things for my kids, and they have all had a very good life and are happy, healthy young people -- well, except for their fundamentalist brainwashing -- which I don''t take lightly, but it is a mixed marriage after all, and always has been in the sense that I have constantly (at least subtly, sometimes quite vocally) cast doubt and criticism on the church's teachings. Mixing two things in a family means kids are necessarily exposed to both sides.... and then, hopefully, when they're young adults, they can make informed decisions on their own.

 

But having now given up all belief in God and the Bible, and having spent 23 years in this marriage and 36 years as a fundamentalist overall (after being "born again" at age 5) and then 2 years as a "masquerader" desperately seeking freedom and truth, I am reaching the end of my ability or desire to put myself on hold. Though if I decide it's best, I will somehow hang another couple of years for my younger kids. How I will do that though... and what it will look like on a daily basis (especially a Sunday basis)... is what I will need to figure out now.

 

Jane -- finally_done

[Guest Davka]

It would be difficult to be **good** friends with people with whom you share no deep values about life and how to live it.

It's nearly impossible, which is why it's difficult to relate to Christians from this side of the divide as well. Sad but true.

 

Another thing is that there is no way my husband would call me an unfit parent. He openly admits I have been a great mom and respects me for that (though privately saying my feminist, critical leanings have sadly influenced our kids away from the church). Still, he can't help but see how wonderfully our children are turning out -- and no judge could possibly think otherwise. I won't go into any details, but the kids are all great, and my husband is quite aware of this fact.

 

So why am I staying? Do we love each other? No. Do we even enjoy each other? Not often. Do we respect each other? In isolated ways. But we are a civil couple (except perhaps in emails!). So yes, it's for the kids. We've been doing this for 23 years already, and it will be a major upheaval for my younger children if I leave now. My older kids would handle it just fine, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm strongly considering sticking around for another few years for my younger ones.

My concern is also mostly for the younger kids. Divorce is a wrenching experience that kids are simply not equipped to deal with. For that reason, I heted to suggest it.

 

If your husband is truly the man you say he is, then here's a solution that might work: Tell your husband that you intend to leave as soon as the kids are grown, but that you love your children too much to put them through a divorce right now. Tell him that you are willing to stick it out for the sake of the kids, but with certain conditions attached:

 

- He must accept your position regarding God and Christianity, and agree not to argue with you or try to change your mind at all. The subject should be considered off limits unless you decide to bring it up.

 

- He must not attempt to guilt-trip you into attending church "for the kids," or leave tracts or books around for you to read, or otherwise attempt to subtly re-convert you. That's God's job - remind him that he is not the Holy Spirit (nothing like a little Christianese to disarm them).

 

- He must agree to refrain from trying to convince your children that he is tight and you are wrong. In return, you will do the same. The kids should never be forced to choose between mom and dad.

 

- He must agree to let the kids make their own decisions about whether or not to attend church, and even which church they want to attend. No extra classes for brainwashing (he won't think of it that way, but you know what I mean). If the kids like church, fine. If they don't, he will have to deal with that as well.

 

You may not feel like it right now, but you are actually in a position of limited power here. As a fundamentalist, he cannot divorce you unless you cheat on him. The courts would probably award you custody, so if he wants to continue to be a regular part of his kids' lives until they grow up, he needs to agree to an amicable living situation. You have the threat of immediate divorce on your side, while he has - nothing, really.

 

If he's a good dad and loves his kids, this might be an acceptable compromise.

[chefranden]

My wife quite believing and church going while I was still a fundy preacher. The last straw for her was how congregation would talk about me behind my back but in her hearing.

 

It was tough for me. I felt like a failure as a pastor. I couldn't even keep my own wife from straying. It pretty much killed my career in CoC. I kept preaching in a small community church for a few years, but I stopped evangelizing. My kids stopped going to church too and by then I was too depressed over my failure as a man of god to fight about it. I'm sure her stance contributed to my eventual loss of faith about 5 years after she lost it.

[finally_done]

My wife quite believing and church going while I was still a fundy preacher. The last straw for her was how congregation would talk about me behind my back but in her hearing.

 

It was tough for me. I felt like a failure as a pastor. I couldn't even keep my own wife from straying. It pretty much killed my career in CoC. I kept preaching in a small community church for a few years, but I stopped evangelizing. My kids stopped going to church too and by then I was too depressed over my failure as a man of god to fight about it. I'm sure her stance contributed to my eventual loss of faith about 5 years after she lost it.

 

 

Wow. You sound like you're still really depressed, chefranden. Are you and your wife still together? Happy? How long ago was all of this? Are you glad you are now out of fundamental Christianity? Or do you wish your wife had never "strayed" from the church?

 

Jane -- finally_done

[finally_done]

 

 

If your husband is truly the man you say he is, then here's a solution that might work: Tell your husband that you intend to leave as soon as the kids are grown, but that you love your children too much to put them through a divorce right now. Tell him that you are willing to stick it out for the sake of the kids, but with certain conditions attached:

 

- He must accept your position regarding God and Christianity, and agree not to argue with you or try to change your mind at all. The subject should be considered off limits unless you decide to bring it up.

 

- He must not attempt to guilt-trip you into attending church "for the kids," or leave tracts or books around for you to read, or otherwise attempt to subtly re-convert you. That's God's job - remind him that he is not the Holy Spirit (nothing like a little Christianese to disarm them).

 

- He must agree to refrain from trying to convince your children that he is right and you are wrong. In return, you will do the same. The kids should never be forced to choose between mom and dad.

 

- He must agree to let the kids make their own decisions about whether or not to attend church, and even which church they want to attend. No extra classes for brainwashing (he won't think of it that way, but you know what I mean). If the kids like church, fine. If they don't, he will have to deal with that as well.

 

You may not feel like it right now, but you are actually in a position of limited power here. As a fundamentalist, he cannot divorce you unless you cheat on him. The courts would probably award you custody, so if he wants to continue to be a regular part of his kids' lives until they grow up, he needs to agree to an amicable living situation. You have the threat of immediate divorce on your side, while he has - nothing, really.

 

If he's a good dad and loves his kids, this might be an acceptable compromise.

 

 

 

Thanks for your input, Davka.

 

1. I don't think he will try to re-convert me (though the occasional long-winded, lecturing email will inevitably come my way, I'm sure). Mostly he will speak about it in condescending, pitying tones, and he has already informed me that he has NO desire to see anything I've read or discuss any issues with me as he does not want to endanger his own faith.

 

2. Nothing will stop him from programming the kids whenever he has the chance. Fortunately, I homeschool (always have, for secular reasons actually), so I have much more time with them. I have much deeper relationships with them than he does as he makes little effort to relate to them once they pass 10 or 11, so though he will insist they keep going to church with him, I will continue to plant the seeds of independent thinking and healthy skepticism. I told him today, however, that if they ask me outright why I'm not going to church now and what I believe, I *will* answer them. He did NOT like that at ALL. (And my 18yo is already asking to read some of the books she's spotted me studying....)

 

 

Here is what I just posted in response to an essay on the main blog. It describes a little of what happened this morning when I told my husband about my deconversion and transition to agnostic atheism.

 

 

 

 

Quote from essay: "Even though some of us experienced decades of solid Christian belief, we are dismissed as having never believed, or never "truly" believed. No matter what evidence we bring, no matter if we are aggressive or kind, there always seems to be an invisible wall of condescending resistance to any criticism or evidence against Christianity. "

 

 

 

Today I told my husband of 23 years that I am now an agnostic atheist. He's known for quite a while that I've been questioning the fundamentalist faith and searching for the truth. The above quote from the essay exactly describes his reaction.

 

I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home and church, earned the Timothy Award in Awana and always won the big trophy at summer camp for memorizing the most Bible chapters, graduated from **Bob Jones University** (the MOST fundamentalist of all the fundamentalist Christian colleges!), served as an overseas missionary, was a pastor's wife, a SS teacher, and a regular columnist for a national fundamentalist Christian magazine. But what was one of the first things my husband said to me, (in a very disappointed and condescending tone), in response to my confession of atheism today?

 

"Well, you were always a feminist. I should have realized you never were really saved in the first place."

 

I felt like he punched me in the gut.

 

In addition, my husband says he absolutely will *not* consider anything I have to say. Though he has two degrees in Biblical and Pastoral Studies, he admitted that he could not look at or think about anything that might cause him to doubt his God. He said he does not WANT to end up like me: without his faith. He doesn't want to be persuaded or convinced away from Christianity, no matter what. He wants to stay right where he is with his blinders firmly attached.

 

Pathetic, isn't it?

 

 

 

********

 

So, that's where I am at the moment. Thanks again to all of you who are coming alongside me to offer encouragement on this weird but wonderful journey. It's strange how, in the midst of all the change and stress, I'm experiencing real peace for the first time in my life.

 

You know what? I like it.

 

 

Jane -- finally_done

[Vigile]

I should have realized you never were really saved in the first place."

 

I felt like he punched me in the gut.

 

That one always hurts the first few times you hear it. After a while you realize it's more of a defensive response from the accuser than it is an attack on your sincerity. They just can't handle the idea that someone who was actually as sincere as they could actually lose their faith, it hits too close to their worst fears. The first time I heard this I went ballistic though.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Well, it seems like the only reason you would stay with him is for the younger kids.

 

But what does that mean? Is it better for your children to have their parents live together but not love each other? I think 'staying for the kids' can be a poor decision. I've known many people with divorced parents and they all adjusted well enough...at least when both parents were honest too them. Talk to a counselor about how to talk to your children, and talk a lot with them. They may understand the dichotomy between what their dad and mom believe, and so long as they don't feel 'abandoned' they usually do okay.

 

Also, I wouldn't suffer for your mother's sake. I can tell you love her but you should be proud to be who you are, not ashamed. The real crime here is that you finding reality would make your mother sad at all.

 

The last ditch thing would be to convince your hubby that if God exists, and his faith is real, then God can resist any scrutiny and he should be open to critical thinking. To not question, at least for me, was admitting I did not believe strongly enough anyway. But I was raised in a more liberal household than I suppose he probably was.

[Insanity personified]

I'm not sure if my opinion on the subject would really matter much, but I'll try anyway.

 

I'm 17 years old, and throughout my life, I've never once seen my parents hug or kiss (that's not an exaggeration either). My father sounds quite similar to your husband. Emotionally stunted, unable to deal with criticism, values the church over normal human relations, shows no real affection for his wife or people close to him, throws a shit fit when he doesn't think his wife is being "submissive" enough. Ect ect. I think that my dad has essentially the same mindset as your husband.

 

Now my situation is of course different from yours, since I haven't yet reached the age of viability, and since I'm still financially dependent on the man...but I can tell you firsthand that living with someone like that has fucked me up in more ways than I can possibly count. One that comes to mind is that I've developed an irrational fear of dealing with adult males. When you only receive negative input from a person, it starts to mess with you. I literally cannot talk to my father without our conversation erupting into an argument over how "spiritually dead" I am (and of course it's my mother's fault for not submitting to the will of her husband). Fundamentalists are impossible to reason with. They're willing to jump over any logical hurdle in order to maintain their wall of obfuscation and idiocy.

 

I'd recommend a divorce if the situation gets really bad, because I know firsthand how shitty it can be to see your parents reduced to that.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I should have realized you never were really saved in the first place."

 

I felt like he punched me in the gut.

 

That one always hurts the first few times you hear it. After a while you realize it's more of a defensive response from the accuser than it is an attack on your sincerity. They just can't handle the idea that someone who was actually as sincere as they could actually lose their faith, it hits too close to their worst fears. The first time I heard this I went ballistic though.

 

Not necessarily. I don't doubt that some may fall into that category, but there are also those who really do believe that a "truly born again believer" would never turn around and reject the faith, and I was in that category for much of my time as a Christian. I wasn't afraid of losing my own faith, because I was absolutely certain that it couldn't happen. To me, those who left the faith just proved that they didn't have the Holy Spirit and therefore had never really been "born again." That was not at all a matter of fear on my part, it really was my perceived reality.

 

Ironically, of course, now I'm on the other side myself and I realize how ridiculous the argument is. There's no such thing as the "Holy Spirit," so NOBODY is "born again" anyway!

[Guest butterfly]

While I never had the same experience as you did, I can relate to how you feel. I left the church completely last year over the women issue. I was told that If I ever was going to get married, my husband would be my loving and serving spiritual leader who didnt boss me around and sacrificed for me (also guided and lead lovingly). Well I did not like the idea of another human being taking responsibility like that soley becuase of gender, and most of all that becuase I was a woman I had to be "lead." The most illogical thing I ever heard was Women and men are equal before God, but have different roles. Having different roles doesnt mean you are inferior or lower. That is complete hogwash and doublespeak. Basically, all are equal, but some are more equal than others. I decided I never wanted to go back to church, since most marriage/women's ministries focus on these oh so lovely Christian books that tell women who to be. I hope things work out for you, but it sounds like your spouse is selfish and immature. Even those that advocate men's leadership would say that husbands cannot boss their wives around and demand submission.

[finally_done]

Ok, I thought I'd give you all an update... I know it will do me good to vent some more...

 

So my husband left the house yesterday afternoon right after he dumped his "I knew you were never really saved/feminist" crud on me. He often just leaves when he gets upset or wants to be alone. I think he finally came in around midnight, maybe later... He slept in a different room, so I'm not sure.

 

I heard nothing from him all day today, though I knew he wouldn't be able to hold off sending me some long, lecturing emails soon. That's just who he is, and I wasn't disappointed. This evening I received two emails from him which basically said he is very disappointed in me, and he highly doubts we can be friends any more. He says I should have requested his help, advice, and guidance along the way so that he could have "shown me the light" about all the deceptive garbage I was reading. He says "I knew better." Went on about how much disrespect I am showing him by refusing to listen to him. Thinks I'm proud and elitist as well as stubborn, foolish, and (gasp!) a feminist.

 

He is still in shock that I went all the way from fundamentalism to atheism -- he thought I'd stop at Marcus Borg's version of theism. I did manage to get him to read just one "out there" book (Borg's _The God I Never Knew_) a year ago, and he hated it and rejected it, but apparently (as I found out yesterday) that belief system would have been somewhat acceptable for me to hold (temporarily anyway). Atheism, on the other hand, is absolutely ridiculous in his eyes. In the end, he even alludes to the fact that I am probably going to ruin the kids and flat-out questions whether he can trust me about anything now.

 

Here is some of what he had to say in his emails. Interestingly, though he seems to mock education, (or at least minimize the value of it), he is smart and well-educated himself. He simply refuses to look at anything which might cause him to really question his faith. Though he begins by saying that I did not include him in my searching process, that is completely untrue. Over the last several years, I have *begged* him to read along with me. He has consistently refused. I have asked him the hard questions along the way, and he has waved them aside, never giving me straight answers (because there aren't any), always telling me just to have faith because some things were meant simply to be accepted. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

 

Also, please believe me when I tell you that I am actually a nice person. Yes, I am *stubborn* (as in determined!) and a thinker, but I am not the rest of what he says. I have never had any problems in any other relationships -- friends, family, community, etc. -- just with him, and it's all stemmed from the fundamentalist teachings I've never fully accepted but he fully worships. I'm really not looking forward to the next few years of sticking it out in this marriage....

 

 

*******

 

Husband said:

 

>>>>

(a) Your changes are always presented as fait accompli… i.e. when you’ve already done a pile of reading that I can’t possibly counterbalance and have reached a preliminary conclusion; and

 

( Your preliminary conclusion is always a repudiation of some aspect of my beliefs, and thus a repudiation of a part of me.

 

You insulate yourself from being influenced at the points you really are considering. That speaks volumes about what you really think of my opinion.

 

If what I think carried any personal weight with you (i.e., as a friend), then you would reconsider your thinking. I am certainly not inclined toward “further exploration” if you are merely going to ignore my conclusions. That’s definitely not the way friends operate.

 

Of course I’ve gotten used to it. It’s just a little numbing that you ask me to give you the default respect for yourself and your ideas that you don’t extend to me.

 

You have initiated a discussion having already reached a heavily-researched preliminary conclusion, and that conclusion is a repudiation of previously commonly held values, so we cannot “explore things together”.

 

We will need to go our separate ways intellectually. And sadly, that means we will increasingly be acquaintances rather than friends as you seek your primary validation and affirmation from people with your newly adopted values. You are self-determinative, and that’s that. By so jealously guarding that, you have forfeited the trust and friendship of someone who has been committed to you, however imperfectly expressed.

 

I hope we can be friendly acquaintances… I am very unsure, however, what grounds I have to trust you -- your goodwill? The aspects of your character that I felt I could count on have shown themselves to be in transition. And the fact that you would embrace atheism shows the absurd lengths you will go to affirm your own sense of self-determination. You know better, and if you really valued my opinion, ever trusted my judgment, you would pull back from this course. In a short time, you will be irreversibly hardened by rejection… once you pay that price, you won’t turn back. It will be a self-propelling decision…. Your pride will be engaged publicly, and no one turns back after that.

 

Profoundly sad that you have come to this point, because I know what a trophy you are, and what can be taken out along with you.<<<<<<

 

 

 

Then in a follow-up email ...

 

 

 

Husband said:

 

>>>>Underlying my earlier reply are some unstated premises that probably should be stated for clarity:

 

(1) Tackling issues of doubt alone (i.e., without a live person tracking with you) is like hiking alone in wild country — you shouldn’t do it. You miss one of the great protections… real-time support. By having done this, you have looked at arguments from one vantage point… your own. Things may appear different from a second-vantage point. That hill may just be a foothill with larger obstacles behind; there may be a way around an insurmountable obstacle. You gain that from a living, breathing human reacting to you, and taking a different tack. Unfortunately, you were already too sold on ideas when you brought me into the picture; as a result, you were prejudiced against cautions.

 

(2) Negative cases and value objections can give the appearance of an affirmative case. With some issues it is only later that you come to realize that there are no demonstrable affirmative cases -- in the end you are only weighing insufficient evidence. What I had to offer you the most was adding my critical faculties to yours. You owed it to yourself, our relationship, and all those depending on you to get it right, to check your native fascination with the innovative. I saw through the liberal point of view, even while feeling the power of its appeal. This was all wasted on you … because you were far past the point where you could hear me. It could not influence you when it needed to, despite its validity. You were under the effect of powerful, passionate voices. “I was like you, but now am not… therefore my point of view is more credible than yours”. It has the lure of sophistication that academically-oriented people like you delight in. It separates you from the masses. But that in itself is a presupposition… that unsophisticated truth is an oxymoron.

 

(3) Doubt is cumulative, as is faith. You cannot minimize the effect of upstream decisions on downstream outcomes. As you noted, once you let go of the reliability of Scripture, the rest flushed on by, even (amazingly in your case) theism altogether. You faulted me for fighting so vociferously about Borg’s stipulations. You gave them away thinking you could take them back later, but you couldn’t. Battle-lines become increasingly indefensible when strategic positions are yielded. On the earlier questions about the inspiration of Scripture, the dates, the versions, etc., which I was indeed qualified to weigh in, and defend ground you were in the process of conceding, you dismissed my knowledgeability and strategic sense. You just could not believe I could be better informed than you thought.

 

You now feel yourself under the full sway of the many, many skeptical voices you have filled your heart with. Part of the effect is the loathing you feel for your now-ex beliefs. This has fed on itself and now is a force of its own making you much more credulous (“Since the Bible can’t be true… what’s left”). It’s like a Risk board… so many enemy armies now, holding down so many territories. But even though they were gained one by one, their effect can be neutralized by taking back just a couple of key territories. Once cut off, like the Japanese islands McAuthur leapfrogged over in WWII, they wither away.

 

I am probably wasting both our time with these notes. But I don't want to concede the effects of a poorly fought campaign by a key ally. Your credibility with me went when you embraced atheism. I know now that you are under the sway of presentations that are over-reaching.

 

Apparently, you can’t doubt yourself, much less actually defer to me, even provisionally while the votes are recounted. That is the choice you seem already to have made, over and over, when resisting opportunities for me to guide you through territory I actually know. Your head is set against me.<<<<

 

 

 

I actually wrote and sent replies to these emails already, and I may post them soon. But I thought I would first share with you his repsonse to my admission of atheism -- a fundamentalist spouse, as someone above said, scared sh**less, and (in case you can't read between the lines here) also very disappointed and angry at me.

 

Sigh.

 

And yet -- still -- I know this is the truth, and he is the one who is deceived.

 

finally_done

[finally_done]

 

Here is some of what he had to say in his emails....

 

 

Ok, if you found those emails from my husband kind of boring, you have no idea.... He writes stuff like that to me, in that manner, all the time (usually about legalistic issues or my lack of submission in general...and usually much longer). And he thinks it's normal -- what a good husband should do.

 

Yeah.

 

It's late -- time for sleep. Have a good night, all.

 

finally_done

[finally_done]

 

Here is some of what he had to say in his emails....

 

 

Ok, if you found those emails from my husband kind of boring, you have no idea.... He writes stuff like that to me, in that manner, all the time (usually about legalistic issues or my lack of submission in general...and usually much longer). And he thinks it's normal -- what a good husband should do.

 

Yeah.

 

It's late -- time for sleep. Have a good night, all.

 

finally_done

[finally_done]

Hmmm... how come I don't have an "Edit" button? I accidentally posted something twice, but I can't do anything about it -- sorry. I read the "edit" feature is supposed to be at the top of my post, but it's not there. Is this something I only get after a certain number of posts? I feel... slighted.

 

 

 

Not really. I'm good.

 

finally_done

[Vixentrox]

He's wrong about one thing. You are not tackling your issues of doubt alone....you got us!

[finally_done]

He's wrong about one thing. You are not tackling your issues of doubt alone....you got us!

 

 

Yes, very true -- somehow I doubt he'd be impressed though.

 

 

And hey -- "He's wrong about one thing." ??????!!!!!

 

 

Thanks for the support, Vixentrox.

 

 

finally_done

[ShallowByThyGame]

He comes off like he's your father a bit. I suppose that's typical of fundy men.

 

What's also weird is that he seems to understand the concepts of deconversion. That it's a step by step process and doubt A leads to doubt B and the house of cards falls over. It's like he at one point was losing his faith, and at the last minute said 'but I don't wanna' and decided to believe in spite of his brain, and so now he talks about it like some strategy of war where we have to dig trenches and keep the atheist thoughts out.

 

He's in denial because he knows you're right, and he's angry that you just went with it because who knows what else your freewill could decide upon now. You can't be trusted if you'll dare to think for yourself!

[Dhampir]

By all means, post your replies to those letters. Btw, you will get your edit button in about 4 more posts

[finally_done]

By all means, post your replies to those letters. Btw, you will get your edit button in about 4 more posts

 

Thank you, Dhampir! Good to know, as I'm a writer and a perfectionist! I NEED to Edit!

 

Yes, he's written me yet another "fun" email this morning, in response to my replies to him. It's kind of crazy because he will not talk about anything of substance in person, much as he likes to claim he's all about open communication.

 

On the other hand, lecturing (as in, preaching), he can do any time, anywhere, any format....

 

I suppose I will post my replies soon. It does feel a little strange, baring my inner thoughts and feelings, as well as our personal correspondence, this way -- but heck, I've already exposed myself here pretty completely. Hopefully, it will help someone else at some point.

 

finally_done

[finally_done]

He comes off like he's your father a bit. I suppose that's typical of fundy men.

 

What's also weird is that he seems to understand the concepts of deconversion. That it's a step by step process and doubt A leads to doubt B and the house of cards falls over. It's like he at one point was losing his faith, and at the last minute said 'but I don't wanna' and decided to believe in spite of his brain, and so now he talks about it like some strategy of war where we have to dig trenches and keep the atheist thoughts out.

 

He's in denial because he knows you're right, and he's angry that you just went with it because who knows what else your freewill could decide upon now. You can't be trusted if you'll dare to think for yourself!

 

 

Yes, he's a lot like my father, except he's logical and intelligent and not nearly as hard a worker.

 

 

Girls really do tend to marry men like their dads. Ironically, I tried to pick someone very different than my prejudiced, chauvinistic, anti-education, hot-headed father, but I ended up with someone who is very much like him. I chose someone who is different on the "outside" - NOT an outdoorsman, very little emotional expression, very low sexual needs, quiet, non-athletic, etc., but he's shown himself to be just as prejudiced, chauvinistic, and anti-education.

 

I married too young and have been "brainwashing" my kids to wait to commit to marriage until they're about 30 and have some idea who they really are.

 

You do understand him pretty well, ShallowByThyGame. He has been far enough down the Doubt Path to be scared out of his wits. He simply could not handle the idea of a life without God at his side and ON his side (he has admitted frequently to a very low self-image), and he ran as fast and hard as he could in the opposite direction, saying the answer to all doubt is just to TRUST GOD MORE. He also would be devastated with the loss of his reputation, the rejection from all of his fundamentalist friends and idols (I mean, mentors), and the feeling that his entire 45 years of life have been wasted.

 

Thanks for reminding me this is not all in my head. My husband is sometimes very good at sounding believable and right. That's why I had to read and prove things out on my own, much as he jealously hates my independence.

 

finally_done

[rocksandstuff]

"You have initiated a discussion having already reached a heavily-researched preliminary conclusion, and that conclusion is a repudiation of previously commonly held values, so we cannot “explore things together”.

 

It's really catch-22 with that kind of argument, because when you are leaving conservative Christianity, you can't exactly explore the issues along side someone, they just won't do it, the only way to "explore together" is to read the same old stuff that only affirms the fundamentalist perspectives. I've had the same problem where I did all my deconverting alone. But my wife was not willing or able (time-wise) to read the same stuff I was during that time. I will say one thing about those emails, as bad as the communication may be, at least he is taking the time to try to communicate with you.

 

I think the hope for a "mixed marriage" like you have is that the fundamentalist/conservative Christian will be faced with cognitive dissonance between their dogma and their unbelieving spouse and eventually soften their stances, become more liberal in their religion. But a lot of that I'm sure depends on the quality of the relationship prior to the spouse deconverting. It sounds like you have a tough combination of a very fundamentalist spouse and like you said a rocky relationship already. I hope everything turns up roses for you in the end no matter what happens in your marriage.

[finally_done]

"You have initiated a discussion having already reached a heavily-researched preliminary conclusion, and that conclusion is a repudiation of previously commonly held values, so we cannot “explore things together”.

 

It's really catch-22 with that kind of argument, because when you are leaving conservative Christianity, you can't exactly explore the issues along side someone, they just won't do it, the only way to "explore together" is to read the same old stuff that only affirms the fundamentalist perspectives. I've had the same problem where I did all my deconverting alone. But my wife was not willing or able (time-wise) to read the same stuff I was during that time. I will say one thing about those emails, as bad as the communication may be, at least he is taking the time to try to communicate with you.

 

I think the hope for a "mixed marriage" like you have is that the fundamentalist/conservative Christian will be faced with cognitive dissonance between their dogma and their unbelieving spouse and eventually soften their stances, become more liberal in their religion. But a lot of that I'm sure depends on the quality of the relationship prior to the spouse deconverting. It sounds like you have a tough combination of a very fundamentalist spouse and like you said a rocky relationship already. I hope everything turns up roses for you in the end no matter what happens in your marriage.

 

Thanks for your input, atimetorend. This entire thread is really helping me think through all of this as it happens...

 

When my husband says I "initiated a discussion" about all of this after having already reached my conclusions, he is not being honest (with me or himself). I've tried to involve him in my searching for a long, long time, and especially so beginning two years ago. It was only when he continued to rebuff my questions, turning them aside as if they were stupid and did not deserve any time or attention, acting as if I was already an infidel for even pondering the thought that something just didn't add up with Christianity -- this despite the fact that I was hurting badly from losing my youngest son to a full-term stillbirth -- it was only THEN that I began to do most of my reading and questioning on my own.

 

Since that time, I have continued to come to him occasionally with specific material, but he still insisted on pushing it aside as ridiculous, heretical drivel that should not and could not be seen as worth any investigation at all.

 

So, yes, he does like to communicate with these types of emails, but only when he feels threatened. He is livid right now (though it's the "quiet" kind of livid that comes with only certain personality types) because he's desperately afraid of what my deconversion will mean to his reputation, to his ability to minister within the local church and community, and to our children's eternal destinations. He's "communicating" in a last-ditch effort to convince me ("guilt" me with some pretty "heavy" stuff) to reconsider my stance so his world can continue on unchanged and serene.

 

I don't think so.

 

finally_done

[Darkside]

Based on the quotes I snipped below, the theme that seems to pervade your husband's e-mails is the notion that you excluded him from your process of study, doubt and deconversion. It seems that this bothers him as much, or more, than your eventual conclusion of athiesm.

 

If your deconversion has been a process ongoing for 6 years, as I believe you indicated, did you let him know about your doubts/concerns at the beginning, and keep him updated throughout the process, letting him know where you stood, what you were researching, so that he could be part of the process, or did you wait until recently to drop the bomb all at once? From what he says, it seems to be the latter, and he seems to indicate that if he had had the chance, he would have addressed these issues with you as they arose. Even is this isn't true, it seems to be his perspective, so maybe the solution is to now give him the chance to "explore things together" as he put it. If he really wants the chance to do this, he should be willing (nay, eager) to read the books you've read and discuss them with you -- how else could you "explore things together" and avoid having you reach a conclusion without considering his input?

 

 

 

 

(a) Your changes are always presented as fait accompli… i.e. when you’ve already done a pile of reading that I can’t possibly counterbalance and have reached a preliminary conclusion; and

 

You insulate yourself from being influenced at the points you really are considering. That speaks volumes about what you really think of my opinion.

 

You have initiated a discussion having already reached a heavily-researched preliminary conclusion, and that conclusion is a repudiation of previously commonly held values, so we cannot “explore things together”.

 

 

(1) Tackling issues of doubt alone (i.e., without a live person tracking with you) is like hiking alone in wild country — you shouldn’t do it. You miss one of the great protections… real-time support. By having done this, you have looked at arguments from one vantage point… your own. Things may appear different from a second-vantage point. That hill may just be a foothill with larger obstacles behind; there may be a way around an insurmountable obstacle. You gain that from a living, breathing human reacting to you, and taking a different tack. Unfortunately, you were already too sold on ideas when you brought me into the picture; as a result, you were prejudiced against cautions.

 

[Darkside]

Sorry, I was posting my response as you were posting this so I missed it. Sounds like you can ignore what I wrote above. Have you confronted him about the hypocrisy in his e-mail?

 

 

 

Thanks for your input, atimetorend. This entire thread is really helping me think through all of this as it happens...

 

When my husband says I "initiated a discussion" about all of this after having already reached my conclusions, he is not being honest (with me or himself). I've tried to involve him in my searching for a long, long time, and especially so beginning two years ago. It was only when he continued to rebuff my questions, turning them aside as if they were stupid and did not deserve any time or attention, acting as if I was already an infidel for even pondering the thought that something just didn't add up with Christianity -- this despite the fact that I was hurting badly from losing my youngest son to a full-term stillbirth -- it was only THEN that I began to do most of my reading and questioning on my own.

 

Since that time, I have continued to come to him occasionally with specific material, but he still insisted on pushing it aside as ridiculous, heretical drivel that should not and could not be seen as worth any investigation at all.

 

So, yes, he does like to communicate with these types of emails, but only when he feels threatened. He is livid right now (though it's the "quiet" kind of livid that comes with only certain personality types) because he's desperately afraid of what my deconversion will mean to his reputation, to his ability to minister within the local church and community, and to our children's eternal destinations. He's "communicating" in a last-ditch effort to convince me ("guilt" me with some pretty "heavy" stuff) to reconsider my stance so his world can continue on unchanged and serene.

 

I don't think so.

 

finally_done

[godlessgrrl]

You have initiated a discussion having already reached a heavily-researched preliminary conclusion, and that conclusion is a repudiation of previously commonly held values, so we cannot “explore things together”.

We will need to go our separate ways intellectually. And sadly, that means we will increasingly be acquaintances rather than friends as you seek your primary validation and affirmation from people with your newly adopted values. You are self-determinative, and that’s that. By so jealously guarding that, you have forfeited the trust and friendship of someone who has been committed to you, however imperfectly expressed.

 

I hope we can be friendly acquaintances… I am very unsure, however, what grounds I have to trust you -- your goodwill? <a bunch more snipped>

 

I think he's telling you here that the marriage is over and it's your fault. The bolded bits are what lead me to think so. "Cannot explore things together", "go our separate ways", "I hope we can be friendly acquaintances", those are all code for "this relationship is over." This is one way that passive-aggressive spouses with religious obligations get out of their marriages: they give up, stop working on it, and make things so unpleasant that the nonbeliever has to leave. You can't win here.

And this:

 

Profoundly sad that you have come to this point, because I know what a trophy you are, and what can be taken out along with you.

 

...speaks volumes. A "trophy"?

 

Bullshit. You're a WOMAN. A real, live, breathing, warm-blooded human woman that he could have real intimacy with if he wanted to. You're not some shrunken head to hang on somebody's wall as a prize for winning some hunting contest, for smeg's sake.

 

I don't know. I couldn't stay in such a situation, at a total impasse, with a spouse determined to portray me as the bad guy and unwilling to compromise or budge an inch. I'd be planning my escape, even if it were a few years down the line: setting up my own bank account, getting a job, consulting with a divorce attorney, going to school if necessary, living my own life.

 

But that's me. You have a lot of choices available to you and I don't know what to advise. I just know I couldn't tolerate living with someone under the circumstances you're in.