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Goodbye Jesus

Living With A Fundamentalist Spouse


finally_done

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Oh - I forgot to mention: even though you dislike emails, I'd encourage you to use email as a communication method. If nothing else it leaves a paper trail, an actual record of who said what when - something harder to pin down in face-to-face conversations, even though F2F is more intimate. It also allows for both parties to take time to consider what they want to say, and address things point-by-point. He may be using email as a way to avoid intimacy, but on the other hand it is still a valid method of communication, and if he's able to communicate that way, I'd say go with it as much as you can.

 

Make sure you save all of said emails on an external mail server somewhere where he doesn't have the password, too. Forward them to a gmail account or yahoo or something.

 

And hang in there.

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Based on the quotes I snipped below, the theme that seems to pervade your husband's e-mails is the notion that you excluded him from your process of study, doubt and deconversion. It seems that this bothers him as much, or more, than your eventual conclusion of athiesm.

 

If your deconversion has been a process ongoing for 6 years, as I believe you indicated, did you let him know about your doubts/concerns at the beginning, and keep him updated throughout the process, letting him know where you stood, what you were researching, so that he could be part of the process, or did you wait until recently to drop the bomb all at once? From what he says, it seems to be the latter, and he seems to indicate that if he had had the chance, he would have addressed these issues with you as they arose. Even is this isn't true, it seems to be his perspective, so maybe the solution is to now give him the chance to "explore things together" as he put it. If he really wants the chance to do this, he should be willing (nay, eager) to read the books you've read and discuss them with you -- how else could you "explore things together" and avoid having you reach a conclusion without considering his input?

 

 

 

Yes, Darkside, it has been an ongoing process that started 6 years ago. I have been up and down the roller-coaster of doubting and questioning repeatedly, and I've attempted to involve my husband all aong the way. However, other than finally giving in and skimming one book about a year ago (Borg's _The God I Never Knew_) -- which he hated and rejected because of the presupposition that the Bible is not the inspired, inerrant word of God -- he has refused to do more than generically refute any concerns I have with remarks such as, "That's only true if you don't trust that God knows better than mere humans" ... or "That is only a problem if you insist the Bible isn't true" ... or (when it comes to terrible things God sanctioned in the OT) "That was not God's doing -- that was evil man's doing." Such specific comments have been rare though because usually when I want to talk through something controversial or confusing with him, he just changes the subject after saying there is no point in discussing these issues since I obviously won't listen to reason (in other words, agree with him).

 

As to "exploring things together" -- the reason he put that phrase in quotation marks was because I am the one who suggested that maybe we could still do this, even at this late date, (as I have been asking him to do all along), so that at least he will understand a little of where I am coming from now. In our actual face-to-face discussion yesterday afternoon, he told me he has no interest whatsoever in reading ANYTHING from the "other side" because he wants to remain "stable" and "functional" in his faith. As someone here put it, he does not want to disbelieve, so he will not allow himself to look at anything which might cause him to reconsider. When I tried to share with him some of the arguments from the academic fields of science and math that I have been studying, he just laughed scornfully and said he would never look at anything from science because it is all trickery spawned by Satan. He acts like I'm a foolish and easily deceived Eve trying to tempt him to his spiritual death....

 

I know this has been a very long thread with many long posts by me, so it's no wonder you weren't able to follow every bit of it, Darkside. And my husband does sometimes sound very logical, rational, well-meaning, and even kind in his writing. But the underlying truth is that he asserts a lot that is not true about what I say and do, and sadly, like other Christians, he is self-deceived when it comes to his religion -- and to him, religion and God and church are EVERYTHING.

 

finally_done

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Have you confronted him about the hypocrisy in his e-mail?

 

 

Yes, I do this frequently. But he just ignores what I say, or claims it is not hypocrisy and reasserts his views. For instance, in this case, even though I have proof (in saved emails -- yes, gwenmead, they are very useful in some ways) that I have been talking about this stuff to him for years, he still somehow denies it. He proclaims it wasn't really "exploring together" because I wasn't really listening to him and didn't follow his spiritual leadership early on so that's why I'm at the terrible point I am now.

 

As you all know from your dealings with Christians at-large, they never want to admit hypocrisy. My husband will NOT admit that I did keep him informed, one way or another, all through this journey, just as he will NOT admit that he never gave me any real answers to the questions I posed (even on his supposed topics of expertise, like manuscript evidence). He always brushed me off rudely or just spewed out the insubstantial hogwash we have all heard that doesn't make sense.

 

So I finally decided to study things through thoroughly on my own over the last six months, "reporting back" to him occasionally to see if he was interested or was willing finally to get involved. I don't think I was wrong to go this route based on my experience and knowledge of my husband. I don't know that there was another real choice actually, except shelving my questions and continuing to make do -- faking a Chrsitianity that was becoming emptier and more repellent to me by the minute -- just so I wouldn't rock any boats.

 

finally_done

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I agree with everything that GwenMead said, and again, it sounds a lot like the things my ex-husband wrote to me when I was leaving Christianity and the marriage- very manipulative, everything bad that is happening is your fault for not submitting to god and to him.

 

And what's the deal with not being able to trust you if you aren't a Christian? Everything you'd been through together as a married couple, where he could clearly see what kind of person you were, that wasn't enough unless Jeebus is involved also? Bullshit.

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He has been far enough down the Doubt Path to be scared out of his wits. He simply could not handle the idea of a life without God at his side and ON his side (he has admitted frequently to a very low self-image), and he ran as fast and hard as he could in the opposite direction, saying the answer to all doubt is just to TRUST GOD MORE. He also would be devastated with the loss of his reputation, the rejection from all of his fundamentalist friends and idols (I mean, mentors), and the feeling that his entire 45 years of life have been wasted.

 

Yeah it would cause total ego destruction, not to mention render him non-functional, at least for a time. Changes in the deeply programmed generally happen slowly. Otherwise, they are self-destructive.

 

*sigh*

 

Phanta

 

 

 

Yes, I was one of the deeply programmed, and it has taken me six full years to reach the other side. And I actually don't know if I'd be here yet except for the trauma and depression I suffered after losing my son two years ago next month. That experience really catapulted me headlong into finally getting some ANSWERS.

 

My husband is much more content to just go with the flow and accept what he's always been taught -- the only world he's ever known. He is pretty much a passive person.

 

I, on the other hand, am a bit different. :shrug: Maybe all of us here are....

 

 

finally_done

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I think he's telling you here that the marriage is over and it's your fault..... This is one way that passive-aggressive spouses with religious obligations get out of their marriages: they give up, stop working on it, and make things so unpleasant that the nonbeliever has to leave. You can't win here.

 

 

And this:

 

Profoundly sad that you have come to this point, because I know what a trophy you are, and what can be taken out along with you.

 

...speaks volumes. A "trophy"?

 

Bullshit. You're a WOMAN. A real, live, breathing, warm-blooded human woman that he could have real intimacy with if he wanted to....

 

...You have a lot of choices available to you and I don't know what to advise. I just know I couldn't tolerate living with someone under the circumstances you're in.

 

 

Yes, for him the marriage is definitely over now -- and will always be unless I reconvert -- I know this. To my husband, a sold-out fundamentalist Christian, marriage is really only about being a couple serving GOD and being a perfect reflection of Jesus, the Bride-Groom, and the Church, his submissive Bride.

 

Really, he has no ability to be intimate, emotionally or otherwise. He was raised not only in a very strict KJV-only church but also in a repressive, non-emotional family. In the week after we married, he let me know that he'd made a mistake marrying me because I clearly wasn't as meek a Christian woman as he'd thought I was and he didn't really love me at all. But he'd put up with me, and I could change, and we'd make it work. (I know -- I should have left then, but I was a *fundamentalist* so I *couldn't*! I was also young and very unsure of myself, as unbelievable as that seems to me now...)

 

Unfortunately for him, I did change, gradually over the years, but it was in the opposite direction, much to his dislike. I must admit that he changed, too -- mellowed a lot on the stupid rules about clothes and music and such -- and he has told me he regrets saying some of the stuff he did early in the marriage. But in reality, though he likes to think he's a completely different person, he's really very much the same. I've put up with it and come to appreciate his stronger points (good intentions; kind to children, church members, strangers, and animals; provides well for our family; nice dad for the little ones; and a few others), and I was hoping (why? I'm not sure...) that things would change for the better as we grew older. I'm 43 and not getting any younger (though I still feel about 23 most days - strange how that works).

 

Now though -- with my deconversion to atheism -- well, if you'll forgive the expression, all hell has broken loose.

 

finally_done

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As someone here put it, he does not want to disbelieve, so he will not allow himself to look at anything which might cause him to reconsider.

 

Herein lies the problem, when someone is not interested in truth and reality, but only in reaffirming already held preconceptions.

 

I can't imagine the hell you must be going through. Your husband sounds like he needs a dose of reality.

 

Maybe you could ask him something like, "Hey, if you really believe that your worldview is correct, then what are you afraid of examining it for? If it's true, then it should be able to withstand any testing, shouldn't it? If you want people of other beliefs to examine their beliefs and seek truth regardless of their established worldview, wouldn't it be hypocritical for you to not also be willing to do the same thing?"

 

This is one of the things that got to me when I was a Christian. I saw that fellow Christians would want those of other belief systems to question their beliefs, but they themselves tended to refuse to apply the same type of questioning to their own Christian beliefs. I didn't have a problem with examining Christianity myself, because I just "knew" it would stand up under examination, but I was bothered that there seemed to be a level of hypocrisy in the way some believers handled this topic.

 

Basically, I could never force myself to "believe" something just because I WANT to believe it. I mean, that's not really belief anyway, it's pretending to believe, or at best just hoping that it's true. I want truth, REGARDLESS of whether or not it fits my preconceived notions, as I am sure you can identify. This, of course, led to my rejection of the faith.

 

Hopefully your hubby will someday realize that truth is more important than religious heritage.

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Yeah! I have an "Edit" button now! I corrected a typo! :woohoo:

 

You know, I needed something good to happen today. After all, it's the little things in life.... :grin:

 

finally_done

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In the week after we married, he let me know that he'd made a mistake marrying me because I clearly wasn't as meek a Christian woman as he'd thought I was and he didn't really love me at all. But he'd put up with me, and I could change, and we'd make it work. (I know -- I should have left then, but I was a *fundamentalist* so I *couldn't*! I was also young and very unsure of myself, as unbelievable as that seems to me now...)

 

WTF???!!!

 

Wow, I just don't know how to respond to that. That must have been one hell of a blow!

 

If he could decide within the space of one week that he didn't love you, then I don't see how he could have genuinely loved you on the day he pledged the rest of his life to you.

 

This guy has serious issues. Wow.......

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I agree with everything that GwenMead said, and again, it sounds a lot like the things my ex-husband wrote to me when I was leaving Christianity and the marriage- very manipulative, everything bad that is happening is your fault for not submitting to god and to him.

 

And what's the deal with not being able to trust you if you aren't a Christian? Everything you'd been through together as a married couple, where he could clearly see what kind of person you were, that wasn't enough unless Jeebus is involved also? Bullshit.

 

I know -- that whole sentence about not trusting me any more really bothers me. I think I've done a great job as a mom to our kids for many years, and they're all wonderful people -- I think I have been a very good wife, too, given our situation. I am a community leader and well-respected locally -- though that could change, I guess, if I come out as an atheist...

 

In any case, my husband has praised me over the years many times (in a non-personal, non-intimate way, you understand) for being an excellent mom and a good person. He has always said that he values my honesty and that he knows he can always rely on me.

 

It seems my entire past life is meaningless to him now. I guess I must have been faking a lot more than my faith. And at this point, I'm a heretic who might do ANYTHING suddenly. He'd better watch me carefully.

 

Yeah -- that makes sense, right?

 

I actually asked him about this remark, but he has yet to answer me. He said he's done writing me emails as it's obvious I won't listen to him. We'll see if he can hold out...

 

finally_done

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As someone here put it, he does not want to disbelieve, so he will not allow himself to look at anything which might cause him to reconsider.

 

Herein lies the problem, when someone is not interested in truth and reality, but only in reaffirming already held preconceptions.

 

I can't imagine the hell you must be going through. Your husband sounds like he needs a dose of reality.

 

Maybe you could ask him something like, "Hey, if you really believe that your worldview is correct, then what are you afraid of examining it for? If it's true, then it should be able to withstand any testing, shouldn't it? If you want people of other beliefs to examine their beliefs and seek truth regardless of their established worldview, wouldn't it be hypocritical for you to not also be willing to do the same thing?"

 

.....

 

Basically, I could never force myself to "believe" something just because I WANT to believe it. I mean, that's not really belief anyway, it's pretending to believe, or at best just hoping that it's true. I want truth, REGARDLESS of whether or not it fits my preconceived notions, as I am sure you can identify. This, of course, led to my rejection of the faith.

 

Hopefully your hubby will someday realize that truth is more important than religious heritage.

 

 

 

Thanks for the understanding comments, Citsonga. I did try this type of question on my husband several times over the last two years (as it's how I was feeling). However, he always put me off (other than the one Borg book) because he was busy reading his own fundamentalist books and because, as he told me often, that kind of material just made him uncomfortable and caused a time of doubt and confusion. Since he really does believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, he doesn't want to put himself through an agonizing period of instability only to end up again where he KNOWS he will, back to trusting the only thing that gives him hope and a reason for living.

 

He admits that there are things he doesn't understand, like eternal hell -- which he has pretty much revamped to be a shorter version than what Scripture teaches, and which, somehow, in his mind, won't include all the tribes of the nations who have never heard of Jesus. Of course, he wouldn't tell any of his fundamental friends about this theory of his. It's just between him and his god -- oh, and me, but I wouldn't "out" him -- well, except to you guys...

 

Anyway, at this point, he's decided I've already made up my mind without consulting him and following his superior knowledge and analytical skills (though I *did* consult him many times along the way), so now he's holding firm that the reason he won't read anything from the "dark side" is because it would be pointless. After all, I will never change my mind now because I'm too proud, and that would be the only reason he would bother reading such idiotic stuff (Science??? No way will he touch it! The Devil's playground!) -- he certainly wouldn't read it to inform himself and test his own faith because suddenly he is ROCK-SOLID in his beliefs. Knee-jerk reaction, I suppose. He definitely feels I've rejected him just as much if not more than Christianity.

 

I see my husband as a man capable of reason and honesty -- but perhaps not when it comes to religion. Maybe he's just been TOO brainwashed and TOO heavily involved in the ministry? Well, I do hope that someday (20 or 30 years from now???), he will finally put aside his affronted feelings of betrayal and actually read and test his faith. But I do think his heritage will probably win out -- he actually uses that word a lot and values it highly. SIGH.

 

 

finally_done

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Guest Davka

Also, please believe me when I tell you that I am actually a nice person. Yes, I am *stubborn* (as in determined!) and a thinker, but I am not the rest of what he says.

Hey, you don't need to justify yourself to us. Your husband is clearly a very insecure and frightened person, lashing out at you because to listen to you would mean questioning the foundation of his belief system. As you know, that's a scary road to go down.

 

Here's something I used to tell people when I was a Christian: "If God is real, then He can handle questions. If your faith falls apart under the weight of honest questions, then it's not much of a faith, is it?" You might see what he says about that.

 

 

I'm really not looking forward to the next few years of sticking it out in this marriage....

I don't blame you one bit. That's why I suggested some sort of amicable truce be arrived at.

 

Your husband's emails speak volumes. He honestly believes that by rejecting his faith you are rejecting him, as though we all have to share each other's opinions in order to accept each other. And he doesn't think it's "safe" to ask questions on your own - apparently God is incapable of shielding us from untruth, we need a condescending "helper" to correct our inaccurate conclusions.

 

I'm sure he's a decent guy in many respects, but dealing with this level of defensiveness and passive-aggressive crap has got to be draining. If you think he can handle it--since he enjoys writing and arguing so much--send him here and tell him he can argue his points in the Lion's Den. Surely his god will give him the victory over a handful of deluded heathens.

 

Of course, if you don't want him here, that's cool too. You deserve to have a safe place to vent and talk.

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In the week after we married, he let me know that he'd made a mistake marrying me because I clearly wasn't as meek a Christian woman as he'd thought I was and he didn't really love me at all. But he'd put up with me, and I could change, and we'd make it work. (I know -- I should have left then, but I was a *fundamentalist* so I *couldn't*! I was also young and very unsure of myself, as unbelievable as that seems to me now...)

 

WTF???!!!

 

Wow, I just don't know how to respond to that. That must have been one hell of a blow!

 

If he could decide within the space of one week that he didn't love you, then I don't see how he could have genuinely loved you on the day he pledged the rest of his life to you.

 

This guy has serious issues. Wow.......

 

 

 

Yeah, it was pretty bad -- to put it mildly. But he didn't see anything odd about it. Just stating the facts. And no, he didn't love me when we got married. He had no clue what love was. He's since told me that he just thought I'd make an excellent mom -- (I was good with kids), and he knew I'd be a good balancing partner for his ministry -- (I was comfortable speaking in public and had a more "professional' image than him), and he liked my looks. :ugh:

 

Of course, I didn't know any of that at the time. I was sheltered and thought he was normal before we were married. (Remember -- we went to BJU and were not really allowed to get to know each other under regular circumstances.) I quickly discovered the truth though. Ha!

 

Anyway, now he says that it was an awful thing to say -- and he was immature, and his family hadn't raised him to show affection, etc... And he says "I love you" at least once a month now. (Well, when he's happy with me. There have been long stretches when he would not have anything to do with me.)

 

But I realized, with the help of counseling I sought a few years ago, that I don't believe his words of "love" now because (1) his actions speak so much more loudly and consistently, (2) he speaks other, more hard-hitting words which contradict these "nice" words, and (3) since he has always refused to get any counseling himself, he still has no idea what real love and intimacy are all about. (This is why, though he has been a pretty great father to our young children for the most part, he puts up a no-emotion, no-affection wall between himself and the kids as soon as they hit the mid-teen years and start voicing their independent opinions.)

 

So -- it's been difficult and not too much fun usually, but I've stuck with it -- at first because our religion said I had to stay or face condemnation... and then because of the kids.

 

Now I don't know. I'd thought that, despite my doubts and searching, we were drawing closer finally in the last two years. But it looks like that was either wishful thinking (though I'm not sure why I wished it in the first place) or else it simply didn't count nearly enough when weighed in the balance with the scary fact that I am now an ATHEIST.

 

:shrug:

 

 

finally_done

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In the week after we married, he let me know that he'd made a mistake marrying me because I clearly wasn't as meek a Christian woman as he'd thought I was and he didn't really love me at all. But he'd put up with me, and I could change, and we'd make it work. (I know -- I should have left then, but I was a *fundamentalist* so I *couldn't*! I was also young and very unsure of myself, as unbelievable as that seems to me now...)

 

WTF???!!!

 

Wow, I just don't know how to respond to that. That must have been one hell of a blow!

 

If he could decide within the space of one week that he didn't love you, then I don't see how he could have genuinely loved you on the day he pledged the rest of his life to you.

 

This guy has serious issues. Wow.......

 

 

 

Yeah, it was pretty bad -- to put it mildly. But he didn't see anything odd about it. Just stating the facts. And no, he didn't love me when we got married. He had no clue what love was. He's since told me that he just thought I'd make an excellent mom -- (I was good with kids), and he knew I'd be a good balancing partner for his ministry -- (I was comfortable speaking in public and had a more "professional' image than him), and he liked my looks. :ugh:

 

Of course, I didn't know any of that at the time. I was sheltered and thought he was normal before we were married. (Remember -- we went to BJU and were not really allowed to get to know each other under regular circumstances.) I quickly discovered the truth though. Ha!

 

Anyway, now he says that it was an awful thing to say -- and he was immature, and his family hadn't raised him to show affection, etc... And he says "I love you" at least once a month now. (Well, when he's happy with me. There have been long stretches when he would not have anything to do with me.)

 

But I realized, with the help of counseling I sought a few years ago, that I don't believe his words of "love" now because (1) his actions speak so much more loudly and consistently, (2) he speaks other, more hard-hitting words which contradict these "nice" words, and (3) since he has always refused to get any counseling himself, he still has no idea what real love and intimacy are all about. (This is why, though he has been a pretty great father to our young children for the most part, he puts up a no-emotion, no-affection wall between himself and the kids as soon as they hit the mid-teen years and start voicing their independent opinions.)

 

So -- it's been difficult and not too much fun usually, but I've stuck with it -- at first because our religion said I had to stay or face condemnation... and then because of the kids.

 

Now I don't know. I'd thought that, despite my doubts and searching, we were drawing closer finally in the last two years. But it looks like that was either wishful thinking (though I'm not sure why I wished it in the first place) or else it simply didn't count nearly enough when weighed in the balance with the scary fact that I am now an ATHEIST.

 

:shrug:

 

 

finally_done

 

Oh yeah, that evil word "ATHEIST." To Christians, that word just means "fool," because, hey, duh Babble sez so!

 

If your husband continues to refuse to try to see things through your eyes, then he'll probably never properly respect you. His fundamentalist indoctrination calls you a fool, and unfortunately that's absolute truth to a guy like him.

 

He may mean well (or at least thinks he means well), but deeply ingrained brainwashing is a difficult thing to overcome. I didn't start seeing through the nonsense until I was 29. I think you said earlier that your husband is 45 or so, and if so, he's apparently had even more indoctrination than I did. And from the sound of things, he doesn't even want to know the truth if it isn't what he already believes.

 

I don't know what I'd do if I were in your shoes. I wouldn't want to live in a relationship like that. If the kids aren't being harmed, then I might would stick it out until they're on their own. My wife and I are on completely different wavelengths in terms of our current worldviews, but we don't show each other disrespect for it, so I haven't had to experience the kind of rejection you're going through. All I can say is, Good luck. Sorry I can't be of more help.

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Dang.

 

He sounds like both my ex-spouse and my Notorious Bible-Thumping Ex™ rolled into one.

 

:/

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Hiya! I've just read your whole story here... What a nightmare you're in!

 

I don't even know where to begin, apart to say that I think your hubby is a complete prat! I know that I shouldn't say things about someone I've never met, but he's been bang-out-of-order through all of this. It seems he uses the same tactics to control you that the church does (he learned well!). Don't you dare be apologetic about anything - you've been treated unfairly and it's him that should be sorry.

 

Make sure you surround yourself with encouraging people that support you through this, and do whatever is best for you and the kids. Hubby can look after himself. Don't let his empty words get to you. He might know how to push your buttons because he's known you for so long, but don't let him use that advantage over you. Remember that he's still trying to control you through guilt (a powerful thing) and he knows very well what he's doing.

 

Stay true to yourself - I think you're a very strong person.

 

-Nixie

:yellow:

 

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I like how he's mad at not being involved but won't read any material that brings up questions. How the hell did he expect to be involved? He just wanted to say to you 'you don't need to look anywhere else for answers, just stop questioning and have faith.' Then when you did look elsewhere he'd say 'well, you went off on your own instead of involving me.'

 

What he really means is 'why didn't you accept my criteria for questioning, that criteria being: "never question anything"'

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ShallowByThyGame asks: I like how he's mad at not being involved but won't read any material that brings up questions. How the hell did he expect to be involved?

 

I have the sneaking suspicion his definition of "involved" is something along the lines of "you shut up and I tell you what to believe."

 

Dangit. And I just cannot figure out how to make quotes work in this interface.

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I told you guys I would eventually post some of the responses I sent to my husband's emails... and I haven't done it yet because it feels so personal... but I really am hoping that someone here (now or in the future) can be helped by me sharing my story a little. So here is the main email I sent back to my husband...

 

>>>>In the last two years, I have struggled through a lot of depression and anger and confusion. Our marriage, as you know, has been absolutely MISERABLE for YEARS. When we lost Nathan two years ago, I'd had enough. I was hurt so deeply that it was clear to me I had to search for truth seriously, not giving up until I found answers that satisfied me. Middle ground wasn't cutting it any longer.

 

Despite the fact that I had never felt much-loved or understood by you, I let you in on my distress and gave you another chance to show your care. Throughout the last two years, I have shared as much as I possibly could at different times and different places on my journey. Knowing your background, your aspirations, your beliefs, and our history, I think I was quite bold to risk telling you **anything** at all. I am sorry to find out now that you felt I was wrong to not keep you informed of every single issue I investigated and to not ask for your advice on a moment-to-moment basis, but I do not feel I was being "grossly unfair" to you. I did the best I could in a challenging situation. This needed to be my decision, not yours, after all. And as I have said a dozen times, I already knew your view (and the church's view) on these matters.

 

I did, in fact, ask your opinion on many things, and I did, in fact, bring up specific questions for which I was seeking different perspectives. You (and the church) gave me nothing of substance. I was disappointed. I looked deeper -- asking other Christians (friends, online, reading books, etc.) -- still nothing surfaced that made sense or was convincing in any way.

 

You say I "discounted... the very points that now acknowledge were pivotal." This is not true at all. I never discounted them. Nor did I, as you said in a previous email, "give them away," temporarily thinking I could pick them up again later, only to find that they had been swept away in the current. I PURPOSELY set some presuppositions aside (for instance, that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word) to see if Christianity could make sense or be shown true without that presupposition holding it up. I wanted to know the answer to that. Now I do. I knew all along (and readily admitted) that this presupposition is a "pivotal" one. That's WHY I was testing it.

 

I was not "skeptical" of YOU personally or of everything YOU had to say -- except as you and your opinions were a reflection of Christianity. For I was PURPOSELY being skeptical of the **Christian** doctrines and traditions in order to evaluate other perspectives. I realize you think that was a mistake, but I disagree. I think if Christianity is true, it should be able to be scrutinized carefully in all of its gory, strange detail. I do value your thinking and opinions even though I have not accepted them as my own, and I suppose that's why it hurts that you think the way you do of me.

 

I am not an "elitist," and I actually find that very amusing. In reality, fundamentalists are the elitists.

 

I AM stubborn -- and not just a touch. But I am also open-minded and willing to admit when I've been wrong. I've been doing that regularly lately.

 

I do not agree that the internet cannot provide real friends and real support. I have seen just the opposite, as a matter of fact. I have been a part of several online communities for months and even years and have really come to know some people through them. Even in "real life," you do not know everything about your friends and acquaintances. The internet is not the only way to put on a mask. Often it actually promotes more honesty than face-to-face discussions. In any case, I also have some local Christian friends with whom I've occasionally shared my struggles and thoughts along the way (other than you - surprise!), so I have not been entirely ALONE. Although there is something to be said for solitary study as well.

 

This morning I decided I would write to you and ask if we could put all of the faith/religion issues aside and just be there for each other anyway. Just be FRIENDS. I didn't know if it was possible, but I was willing to try. However, I came home to this email, so I guess that idea is shot before it's tried. Perhaps that is for the best. Because, really, someone who could respond to what I've been experiencing by blaming me for not letting him steer my path doesn't seem to value me as an individual person at all.

 

In none of your words in the last few days have I heard any deep sense of loss for ME as ME. Just a sad (maybe even desperate) sense of loss for me as a part of the religious couple and cause. Once again, I realize that you have never had a distinct love for ME. Only an image of me you wish could be true.<<<<

 

 

 

Ok, there it is -- I have to run now, but I actually will be back later with a slightly encouraging update...

 

finally_done

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I actually will be back later with a slightly encouraging update...

 

 

 

So... here is the big surprise -- my husband came home two nights ago and actually broke down emotionally (first time I've ever seen that) over this whole thing. We talked for a long time, and he was obviously at a loss as to what to think. He can't BELIEVE I really think the way I do now. He says he could understand if I'd moved into a deism of sorts, but atheism is beyond his comprehension *entirely*. But by the end of the night, he admitted a couple of things:

 

1) I am completely serious and am not going to be swayed by his insistence he's right.

 

2) I am willing to stay in the marriage ONLY IF he is willing to read at least one book I give him -- read it *fully* - with as *open* a mind as possible -- and then *discuss* it with me afterwards. (To give him an incentive, I promised to read and discuss one book of his choice as well -- what the heck, right? I have nothing to fear.)

 

3) If, after we read and discuss these books, he is still convinced of the truth of fundamentalist Christianity, I will only stay in the marriage if he respects me by not belittling atheism and not talking to the kids about this issue at all AND if he makes a real effort in our relationship on a personal level.

 

 

So the SHOCK is that... he has agreed! (And yes, this is a huge shock because it is exactly what he told me he would never do.) He's asked me to order him his own copy of Dan Barker's _Godless_ (the book I've picked for him to read and discuss with me as I think it's a perfect challenge for him). We are starting this weekend. It should be interesting, to say the least. Having read the book, I cannot imagine my husband not throwing it across the room in disgust, but I'm hoping his intellectual integrity (which I know is buried in there somewhere) will manage to struggle to the surface.

 

I'll keep you updated... this stuff is hard, but it's worth it. In any case, I really have no choice because I can never again pretend to believe in (and worship!) the imaginary, cruel God of the Bible.

 

 

finally_done

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The man's double standards are infuriating. He sees you as a hood ornament, then castigates you for not being engaged when he's the one who not only isn't engaged, he seems to vigorously flee engaging.

 

 

I told you guys I would eventually post some of the responses I sent to my husband's emails... and I haven't done it yet because it feels so personal...

I'd like to encourage you to not post anything you may not be entirely comfortable with. Sometimes threads like yours develop a kind of emotional momentum, and if the OP is overtired, or something like that, they may post something they later regret. Normally, I don't presume to speak for the bulk of the other members here, but I think I'm safe in saying that this community wouldn't want you to put something out that you may later not be comfortable with.

 

 

...but I really am hoping that someone here (now or in the future) can be helped by me sharing my story a little.

Threads like yours are very important for exactly that reason. I kind of harp on this point, but I think it's important. You never know who might be reading (As you said, now or in the future.), and you might never know who or how many you've helped by documenting your story. I think it's extremely important.

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That's good news, he's letting his emotions for you guide him a bit, possibly acknowledging some cognitive dissonance (atheists are evil but my wife is not evil). I am impressed with your bravery and fortitude. Obviously no book is a cure-all, but often times such challenges set things in motion behind the scenes even if it takes years for it all to process.

 

Keep us updated, I'm riveted by your story.

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I'd like to encourage you to not post anything you may not be entirely comfortable with... I think I'm safe in saying that this community wouldn't want you to put something out that you may later not be comfortable with.

 

 

Thanks, Loren -- for the support and the advice. I appreciate your concern.

 

So far I have not posted anything I regret sharing (and nothing my husband isn't fully aware of already). He also knows I am on a forum like this and asking advice because I've told him about it (though not the actual site), and he did not have a fit about it, probably because he's aware I need some kind of support system to maintain my sanity... or maybe just because he realizes there's nothing he can do about it. He actually said (half in jest and half not) to thank those of you (and there were a few) who suggested I not necessarily immediately divorce him! :Wendywhatever:

 

Anyway, talking through everything as it has taken place has really helped me get through this hard initial phase of "coming out" with my deconversion. Now I will give you all a break from reading my long-winded posts for a while :vent: as my husband and I try to work things out somehow.

 

finally_done

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That's good news, he's letting his emotions for you guide him a bit, possibly acknowledging some cognitive dissonance (atheists are evil but my wife is not evil). I am impressed with your bravery and fortitude. Obviously no book is a cure-all, but often times such challenges set things in motion behind the scenes even if it takes years for it all to process.

 

Keep us updated, I'm riveted by your story.

 

You're right, SBTG -- it's just one book. But Dan Barker is **so** much like my husband, in so many ways, it's crazy. If anything can reach him, make him remember his previous doubts, make him actually confront them rather than bury them, it might be this hard-hitting book.

 

And yes, it may take a long time for things to develop in the way I'm hoping, if they ever develop that way at all (odds are exceedingly against it). Or things may revert to the worst case scenario very quickly. In any case, when there's news, I'll update you guys.

 

Until then, I'll see you all around the other threads here.

 

 

finally_done

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I am happy to hear about the progress that has been made in your relationship. Its really encouraging and I have great hopes that it continues to work itself out. Thank you for keeping us updated :D

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