godlessgrrl Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Wow. Good to hear that you broke through the barriers, at least a bit... sounds like you had a productive discussion about it in the end. I hope that your hubs can live up to his end of the bargain and that you manage to work out something out. Good luck and keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Congrats and good luck. Oh, and I'd say that your email was very well reasoned. Anyway, I should probably check out that Dan Barker book myself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksandstuff Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 His willingness to read a book like that is amazing. I agree with the comment above, cognitive dissonance is a reasonable outcome in a situation like this for a believer with an unbelieving spouse. My wife has changed a lot in her opinions over the past year, being willing to consider things she would have said before she would never consider. Also agree with the comment about things taking long time. I hope we have the opportunity to hear how things are going with Barker's book, and hope the two of you actually enjoying going through it together, as impossible as that may seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Just adding my congrats and encouragement here. Hang in there, you're making progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm touched by your story ... wnated to share something of mine in a nutshell. I deconverted from fundamentalism before my hubby. This caused him to question whether he could trust me anymore and to fear that I would not be the person he thought I was and whether there was any valid foundation to our marriage. This was a crazy thing to conclude and it felt hurtful - I now understand this as part of the process and part of the conditioning of men in fundamentalist marriages. We stuck in there and survived. I made sure that my hubby knew my values and core being remained the same - in fact free of many of the constraints I became more me than I'd ever been :-) Then my hubby deconverted from theism altoghter - this caused me to question whether I could trust him anymore and to fear that he would not be the person I thought he was and whether there was any valid foundation to our marriage. This was a crazy thing to conclude and I know it hurt him - I now understand this as part of the process and the conditioning of women in christian marriages. On the other side of our journey our marriage could not be better, a difference might be that we have always loved each other intensely and knew it, we had our rocky periods and difficulties and many of these (most even) were connected to the constraints and limitations put on our relationship by our religion. The recent turn in your story suggests to me that your husband might love you a lot more than he has been allowed to let on. If he is able to free himself from his fundamentalist constraints you might find yourself married to someone who tingles with pleasure everytime he thinks of the free spirit he is married to. Happy reading both ;-) What is he asking you to read? (I'm a bit of an optimistic romantic ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 ..... Then my hubby deconverted from theism altoghter - this caused me to question whether I could trust him anymore and to fear that he would not be the person I thought he was and whether there was any valid foundation to our marriage. This was a crazy thing to conclude and I know it hurt him - I now understand this as part of the process and the conditioning of women in christian marriages. .... we had our rocky periods and difficulties and many of these (most even) were connected to the constraints and limitations put on our relationship by our religion. The recent turn in your story suggests to me that your husband might love you a lot more than he has been allowed to let on. If he is able to free himself from his fundamentalist constraints you might find yourself married to someone who tingles with pleasure everytime he thinks of the free spirit he is married to. Happy reading both ;-) What is he asking you to read? (I'm a bit of an optimistic romantic ;-) ) That first statement is too funny! If only I live to experience that, too. Yes, I do think our particular problems directly stem from the teachings of patriarchal fundamentalism. I do think if he could detach himself from it, things could be very different, but its hold on him is VERY, VERY strong, and I'm tired of living in a make-believe world. But I'm holding on for a while, just in case the highly improbable comes to pass. I must admit I've been surprised a lot already in that he is willing to even LOOK at any opposing view. So far though he is not impressed with Dan Barker's _Godless_ -- the book I asked him to read. He says it's clear the man never had a real heart relationship with God as Barker makes no mention of repentance and apparently doesn't "prove" to my husband he actually was a happy, fulfilled, sold-out Christian before "losing" his faith. But thank you so much, Alice, for sharing your optimistic outlook and your story. I'm aware of the way this will probably play out for me, but it's nice to think there is at least one chance in a million that it could develop differently. finally_done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 But I'm holding on for a while, just in case the highly improbable comes to pass. I must admit I've been surprised a lot already in that he is willing to even LOOK at any opposing view. So far though he is not impressed with Dan Barker's _Godless_ -- the book I asked him to read. He says it's clear the man never had a real heart relationship with God as Barker makes no mention of repentance and apparently doesn't "prove" to my husband he actually was a happy, fulfilled, sold-out Christian before "losing" his faith. You should tell him not to form ANY conclusions till he's finished the book. Conclusion jumping is often a barrier to understanding, especially when it's done so as to be able to continue holding a particular viewpoint. Edit: As to this particular argument, you could point out that not every church follows the same procedures as his, and that it would be arrogant to assume that only his church is doing it correctly, being that pretty much any other church could make the same argument. Procedural disparities are by no means a determinant of devotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Edit: As to this particular argument, you could point out that not every church follows the same procedures as his, and that it would be arrogant to assume that only his church is doing it correctly, being that pretty much any other church could make the same argument. Procedural disparities are by no means a determinant of devotion. You can even show him this logic sans religion. A: I've decided I don't like Pepsi products B: Well, then you probably haven't had the right ones. Noone could reject Pepsi if they truly understood all the quality drinks they produce. What is occurring is that it's necessary for him to deny and distort deconversion stories so they won't conflict with his world view: That one can accept Jesus and then walk away later. It's a common cop-out. One way to fight it is to just produce more and more deconversion stories from hardcore fundamentalists. There are many on this site in the archives, and also at http://de-conversion.com/ In fact in the early centuries of nonbelief and the enlightenment, say 17th/18th century, this was the first type of defense that theologians provided to comfort themselves: That no person can logically become an atheist, and therefore there is no problem. Those who claim to be are simply confused, etc. The church being forced to acknowledge that someone could not believe in God was the first victory for skeptical thinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Spencer Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 [Husband said] Your preliminary conclusion is always a repudiation of some aspect of my beliefs, and thus a repudiation of a part of me. Your husband is emotionally fused to you. I've become a big fan of a book called Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch. He has a vivid way of illustrating emotional fusion. An emotionally fused marriage is like a pair of Siamese twins. They're sitting on the couch and one of them gets up to get a snack or something. The other one explodes with, "Why are you doing this to me?" Of course, the first twin is not trying to do anything to the other; she's just taking care of herself. [Husband continues] we will increasingly be acquaintances rather than friends as you seek your primary validation and affirmation from people with your newly adopted values. You are self-determinative, and that’s that. By so jealously guarding that, you have forfeited the trust and friendship of someone who has been committed to you, however imperfectly expressed. Your husband does not realize that you are now seeking "your primary validation and affirmation" from yourself. For the first time in a long time, you are not getting your validation and affirmation "from people with ... your values." You are standing on your own two feet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattH Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Very compelling story! And I have complete admiration for the strength you've maintained. I too was raised in a very fundamentalist household, and can relate to the difficulties in trying to reason with someone of strong fundamentalist convictions. If I were to offer any advice, it would simply be not to forget your own self-worth. It seems to me that one of the biggest games played by fundamentalists is to play on people's feelings of inadequacies. You know you're a valuable, respectable person, so hold on to that, and don't let your husband or anyone else try to convince you otherwise. Look forward to hearing how the book comparison goes, and wish you the best! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 You have two basic choice at this fork in the road. Run now, run fast, run far and start a new life, or Continue to live in misery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 You have two basic choice at this fork in the road. Run now, run fast, run far and start a new life, or Continue to live in misery Now that he's agreed to go through a book with her? Personally, I'd suggest waiting to see what comes of that first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 But I'm holding on for a while, just in case the highly improbable comes to pass. I must admit I've been surprised a lot already in that he is willing to even LOOK at any opposing view. So far though he is not impressed with Dan Barker's _Godless_ -- the book I asked him to read. He says it's clear the man never had a real heart relationship with God as Barker makes no mention of repentance and apparently doesn't "prove" to my husband he actually was a happy, fulfilled, sold-out Christian before "losing" his faith. How is it going now? Has anything changed? And how exactly would he expect someone who no longer believes Christianity to describe his past Christian experience? Previously, when Dan was a Christian, he probably did use Christianese to describe his experience. Also, what book did your husband select for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Oh yes, updates would be welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 finally_done I have come into this thread a bit late, but I still want to welcome you. Your posts have been very helpful to me, as I am sure they have been helpful to anyone else here that has and is going through a similar situation. I can truly empathize with you. Twenty years ago, my wife of 30 years became born again and still remains so. We have had many heated arguments over the years, and it has created an emotional chasm that has been difficult to gap. In the past couple of years she has tempered her behavior, but still harbors her hard core beliefs in literalism/inerrancy. A week ago we had another biblical discussion. I usually avoid them and don't take the bait, but without going into it, I had to comment on something she said about a friend's salvation. We actually had a calm discussion about literalism, inerrancy and origins of the bible. I asked her about salvation and drinking poison and handling snakes, as stated in the book of Mark(?). I was flabbergasted that she said if the holy spirit moved her, she would drink poison and know she would be safe because she is a true believer. I was speechless. I stated I could not comprehend how someone could do that from the instruction from a man made book. She said if I read the bible I would understand, and if I did, she would read a book of my choosing. I am getting Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus for her to read, while I read books of the bible she picks. The reason I mention this is I see your fundy husband is going to explore information outside his comfort zone also. I think this is a big step for our spouses, and I am hopeful it will change how they see things. Mostly, I want my wife to see why I don't believe as she does, in hopes of it changing how I am treated, as an outsider by her and her church. My goal is not for her to give up her faith, but as many here can attest, once one opens the door with information, it is hard to close. In closing, hang tough. You sound like a wonderful person, a great mother and loving human being. I wish you the best of luck. Centauro PS I will be posting in "Book Challenge by Fundy Wife" my running account of what happens. Keep us posted on how you are doing. Again, hang in there and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 You should tell him not to form ANY conclusions till he's finished the book. Conclusion jumping is often a barrier to understanding, especially when it's done so as to be able to continue holding a particular viewpoint. Edit: As to this particular argument, you could point out that not every church follows the same procedures as his, and that it would be arrogant to assume that only his church is doing it correctly, being that pretty much any other church could make the same argument. Procedural disparities are by no means a determinant of devotion. Dhampir, (and any others interested and following this story) -- I highly doubt my husband could read anything from an anti-Christian perspective without involuntarily jumping to conclusions. As he would put it, he was trained to be suspicious and on "guard" against the enemy... He's always pointing out the presuppositions and biases of others. Perhaps he will be convinced in *spite* of his training and in *spite* of his overall satisfaction with his religion and his personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but I would be shocked. And that is one of the main things he has found lacking in Dan Barker's book: the man really doesn't show signs that he had a deep relationship with his God. Barker cheerfully admits to being a "showman"/salesman both then as a Christian and now as an atheist. It's not a particular denominational "procedure" my husband feels is wrong; instead, he thinks there is a basic and necessary heart attitude that is missing. In addition, when he reached the part of the book where Dan Barker discusses the "Beatitudes," my husband felt the man completely missed their deep meaning. He said he could not believe Barker ever studied that passage of Scripture back when he was a Christian with any real devotion -- another sign to him that Barker was not a "true" Christian or is at least not being honest at this point.... Soon after he started this book, I realized it was perhaps NOT the right one for him to be reading at first, so I began reading Christopher Hitchens' _God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything_ aloud to him. I would not have guessed it originally, but it turns out that *this* book has been a much better one for getting him to think hard about all he has ever known. Much more academic in its approach, and somehow more honest in its bluntness (also, not just focused on "fundamentalism," but all religion, which makes things a little less personal...). In any case, Hitchens' book seems to hit my husband where it hurts a lot of the time (as in, making him really pause to consider). We have actually gone to various rivers and lakes for days at a time lately to read through this book (as well as the Christian book we're reading together). I'll respond a little more in another post below... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Your husband does not realize that you are now seeking "your primary validation and affirmation" from yourself. For the first time in a long time, you are not getting your validation and affirmation "from people with ... your values." You are standing on your own two feet! Thanks for this interesting and supportive post, Larry. I may need to get this book for myself. My husband has come a long way, and I've been surprised recently by his willingness (after his initial shock) to hear me out and discuss things with me -- but yes, deep down, he does feel we, as a couple, should be ONE. (Though we never have been up to this point...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Very compelling story! And I have complete admiration for the strength you've maintained. I too was raised in a very fundamentalist household, and can relate to the difficulties in trying to reason with someone of strong fundamentalist convictions. If I were to offer any advice, it would simply be not to forget your own self-worth. It seems to me that one of the biggest games played by fundamentalists is to play on people's feelings of inadequacies. You know you're a valuable, respectable person, so hold on to that, and don't let your husband or anyone else try to convince you otherwise. Look forward to hearing how the book comparison goes, and wish you the best! Matt Thanks, Matt -- I really do appreciate the support here. Sometimes things can grow very confusing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 You have two basic choice at this fork in the road. Run now, run fast, run far and start a new life, or Continue to live in misery Bruce, I know you mean well -- I do. But I've been married for 23 years, and I don't live in COMPLETE misery! ;-) We have a family together, and our kids are happy and doing very well. I am not above leaving if that is what is necessary, but right now I'm trying to honor a commitment and hopefully develop a *better* relationship with my husband by discussing these issues honestly despite our disagreements. We'll see what happens -- things are up in the air right now, as a lot of other stuff is going on for us at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Oh yes, updates would be welcome! Vixentrox, Phanta, & Citsonga -- We have been very busy reading through Barker's book and also, much better imho, Hitchens' _God Is Not Great_. My husband has to admit there is a lot of truth in the latter book, but he is still quite strong in his faith. He has also been having me read aloud a new book by Ed Gungor called _What Bothers Me Most About Christianity_. This is an unusual book as it actually directly addresses several of the hard issues -- the OT God being such a bully, the exclusivisity of Christianity, the problem of evil and suffering, science and religion conflicts, the concept of hell, etc.... This book is meant as a response to some of the atheist "attacks" on Christianity. It just came out in June, and I must say the man does a decent job at sounding sincere, smart, honest, and sympathetic to doubters. If I'd read him 2 years ago, I might not be where I am today in my thinking. (Not that he is very academic or particularly thorough -- it's an easy read and not really deep enough to satisfy me, but I can definitely see his appeal.) I have been surprised at my husband's willingness to talk through these issues with me and even to consider different conclusions than he has ever thought about before now, but I really don't think he has changed any of his core beliefs at all. (Not that I ever thought he would...) Now though, it looks like things of this nature will be put on hold for a while as life invades. His mother was suddenly diagnosed with end-stage cancer yesterday. She lives across the country from us, so we are figuring out visiting logistics while also arranging for another of our teens to leave for college. On top of the fact that this weekend marks 2 years since I lost my youngest son (he was born still). I've been dealing with migraines the last few days, and today was the first I've been up to getting on the computer lately. I may not post much for a while, but I'll try to check in regularly to read. The people on this site have been a real help to me at this time -- just to know I am not alone means so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally_done Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 finally_done I have come into this thread a bit late, but I still want to welcome you. Your posts have been very helpful to me, as I am sure they have been helpful to anyone else here that has and is going through a similar situation. I can truly empathize with you. Twenty years ago, my wife of 30 years became born again and still remains so. We have had many heated arguments over the years, and it has created an emotional chasm that has been difficult to gap. In the past couple of years she has tempered her behavior, but still harbors her hard core beliefs in literalism/inerrancy. A week ago we had another biblical discussion. I usually avoid them and don't take the bait, but without going into it, I had to comment on something she said about a friend's salvation. We actually had a calm discussion about literalism, inerrancy and origins of the bible. I asked her about salvation and drinking poison and handling snakes, as stated in the book of Mark(?). I was flabbergasted that she said if the holy spirit moved her, she would drink poison and know she would be safe because she is a true believer. I was speechless. I stated I could not comprehend how someone could do that from the instruction from a man made book. She said if I read the bible I would understand, and if I did, she would read a book of my choosing. I am getting Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus for her to read, while I read books of the bible she picks. The reason I mention this is I see your fundy husband is going to explore information outside his comfort zone also. I think this is a big step for our spouses, and I am hopeful it will change how they see things. Mostly, I want my wife to see why I don't believe as she does, in hopes of it changing how I am treated, as an outsider by her and her church. My goal is not for her to give up her faith, but as many here can attest, once one opens the door with information, it is hard to close. In closing, hang tough. You sound like a wonderful person, a great mother and loving human being. I wish you the best of luck. Centauro PS I will be posting in "Book Challenge by Fundy Wife" my running account of what happens. Keep us posted on how you are doing. Again, hang in there and good luck. Centauro -- Thank you for the welcome and the support. I can see we are in similar situations. It's late here (almost midnight), and my head is starting to hurt again, so I will write you more soon. I definitely have a few things I'd like to discuss with you, and I will check in on your thread, too -- which, btw, I've already been tracking.... ;-) More later -- finally_done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 finally_done I have come into this thread a bit late, but I still want to welcome you. Your posts have been very helpful to me, as I am sure they have been helpful to anyone else here that has and is going through a similar situation. I can truly empathize with you. Twenty years ago, my wife of 30 years became born again and still remains so. We have had many heated arguments over the years, and it has created an emotional chasm that has been difficult to gap. In the past couple of years she has tempered her behavior, but still harbors her hard core beliefs in literalism/inerrancy. A week ago we had another biblical discussion. I usually avoid them and don't take the bait, but without going into it, I had to comment on something she said about a friend's salvation. We actually had a calm discussion about literalism, inerrancy and origins of the bible. I asked her about salvation and drinking poison and handling snakes, as stated in the book of Mark(?). I was flabbergasted that she said if the holy spirit moved her, she would drink poison and know she would be safe because she is a true believer. I was speechless. I stated I could not comprehend how someone could do that from the instruction from a man made book. She said if I read the bible I would understand, and if I did, she would read a book of my choosing. I am getting Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus for her to read, while I read books of the bible she picks. The reason I mention this is I see your fundy husband is going to explore information outside his comfort zone also. I think this is a big step for our spouses, and I am hopeful it will change how they see things. Mostly, I want my wife to see why I don't believe as she does, in hopes of it changing how I am treated, as an outsider by her and her church. My goal is not for her to give up her faith, but as many here can attest, once one opens the door with information, it is hard to close. In closing, hang tough. You sound like a wonderful person, a great mother and loving human being. I wish you the best of luck. Centauro PS I will be posting in "Book Challenge by Fundy Wife" my running account of what happens. Keep us posted on how you are doing. Again, hang in there and good luck. Centauro -- Thank you for the welcome and the support. I can see we are in similar situations. It's late here (almost midnight), and my head is starting to hurt again, so I will write you more soon. I definitely have a few things I'd like to discuss with you, and I will check in on your thread, too -- which, btw, I've already been tracking.... ;-) More later -- finally_done Glad you have been tracking it. Wish I had found this site sooner, as it would have been one hell of an interesting read had I been able to tell the whole story. Some very bizarre stuff for sure, the past 20 years. But for the first time in a long time, I see some light at the end of the tunnel. My only desire is to get the "elephant in the room" out of our relationship, every time her beliefs/spirituality surface in conversation. Her reading some non christian stuff, especially the origins and changes in the formulation of the bible, will hopefully temper her responses to any open discussions regarding her faith. In my wife's case, historically, (as in your case, also) any disagreement is seen as an attack, verses just a difference of opinion, (based on fact). And until she rids herself of all the emotionalism in her defense of her faith, we can't have a dialog. I think we are moving toward that. No news to post today, other than the fact this is the 3rd sunday in a row, I opted out of accompanying her to church. To keep the peace, I usually sat with her and used the time to study/observe how distorted their beliefs were and profile personalities within the church. It is fun, sometimes, and interesting to clinically pick apart the psychological manifestations of certain members of her church. But I have had to take a bit of time away, as my wife has gotten too used to me going and may be getting the wrong impression. Misquoting Jesus should be arriving soon and I will let all know how this is received by my fundy wife. Take care all. Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted August 2, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted August 2, 2009 finally_done and Centauro, I'm in the same boat. My husband and I were both "lapsed catholics/agnostics" when we got married. That worked fine for about a dozen years. Then one of hubby's co-workers convinced him he needed to get born again. As a former-catholic, that immediately changed my status to "of the devil." Fortunately he's gotten past that one, or I would've been long gone. There have definitely been some rough times (some good times too though). We've been married 36 years. I'm so happy for you both that your spouses have agreed to read one of your books. My DH still won't read anything critical of xtianity. Sometimes he will go through my books--the usuals by Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. He MAY read the jacket, but that's as far as he goes. Usually he just rolls his eyes and shakes his head. I swear, when he even touches my evil devil-inspired books, I almost expect him to say "eewwwwwww....cooties...." LOL He is so emotionally caught up in his faith, and has been for so long, I really don't see him ever leaving it. I think if he had to admit that he'd been wrong all these years, it might actually kill him. I don't have the Misquoting Jesus book, but I think I will get it and see what happens. Good luck to all of us unequally yoked couples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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