Never Trust A Christian

[Kurari]

I suppose I just walked right into this myself, but I'm feeling a bit wounded right now.

 

My best friend of ten years and her family have kind of adopted me. I get included in their family gatherings and I consider them the family I got gypped out of growing up. They are all also perfectly aware I'm an atheist while they are devout Methodists. In all these years they've never forced me to try to go to church and we've had civil discussions on our beliefs. They've always seemed to be accepting that I was an athiest, and have never tried to push me beyond inviting me to church sometimes for Christmas services and such (which I enjoy).

 

Now, in my own household of blood relations, we were atheist/agnostic. Church and Christianity wasn't part of our lives beyond the fact my mother and father both revealed they had suffered church abuse when they were growing up, and were both Ex-C. So I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to church cultures and the Bible, and being American, sometimes I feel my lack of education leaves me at a disadvantage. Also being the religious geek I am with a great interest in all things regarding gods, myths, and history, I've decided to visit various churches to learn a bit about what drives my society. So far, it's been interestingly educational.

 

This past weekend I visted a Baptist church, and I told my BF about it over IM afterwards. We chatted about it for a bit and all seemed well...until she did a "Mistell" and posted a portion of her conversation with her mother in my window accidently.

 

Her mother said, "Well, it's not the best motivation, but if it gets her going to church regularly. It's time she stopped pretending and let Jesus tell her what he's been trying to tell her all these years."

 

My friend, "Yes, it's a step in the right direction."

 

My friend was mortified when she realized what she had done, and tried to apologize, but I signed out and haven't signed back in again or spoken to her until I get my thoughts together.

 

I suppose it is my own fault and I can't really blame them for thinking my curiosity is begging for assimilation into the Christian Borg...but the fact they were talking about this behind my back and apperantly have always thought I was silly and "ignoring" Jesus just hurts. I've been honest, and THEY are the ones who have lied to ME. Now I wonder if they've been trying to manipulate me all this time and I'm second guessing memories. I feel like a fool.

 

I'm not sure how to take this, but I feel better having somewhere to go and talk about it with people who understand.

[Deva]

My reaction on reading your post is yes, it is hurtful, but that is what Christians do. Please, I don't want to minimize it, but honestly, are you really surprised?

 

They never stop hoping, praying, talking behind your back about how they want you in the fold. Having made a terrible mistake myself with e-mail I know how easy it is to drop something on someone by computer that you never intended. Since they did try to apologize, if it were me, I would try to cool down, put it behind me and come to terms with it as just a mistake. Not saying its easy, but you do seem to value the friendship.

[florduh]

I would make it clear to them that my position is a well considered and valid one that demands respect equal to theirs. I would also share my feeling that they have been hurtful and unfair in their assumptions while keeping them secret.

 

Also I would point out that an interest in railroads or space travel doesn't make one an aspiring engineer or astronaut. It is important to have some understanding of all major religions since they play a large role in the shaping of world politics and affairs. Studying religion doesn't mean you want to sign up with theirs, or any of the others either.

 

Depending on my mood, I might also remind them that any good Catholic or Baptist wouldn't consider them to be True Christians anyway!

 

Sorry you had to find out the way you did.

[Guest Davka]

Deva has a point - this is what Christians do. They're taught that it's what they're supposed to do if they truly love you. It's what I did, and what all the Christians I knew did. You can't tell heathens the "truth" about how they are avoiding Jesus to their face, because they "can't understand" if they're not assimilated. So you play down your Christianity to their faces and pray and talk behind their backs. It's called "friendship evangelism," and yes, it's every bit as dishonest as it sounds.

 

It's also SOP for evangelicals of all stripes.

 

I'm not sure how I'd react in your shoes. I don't blame you for being pissed, but I honestly don't know what your rational next step is. I suppose you could always try to deconvert them, just to let them know how it feels to have someone consider you a deluded fool, but I doubt it would get past their programming.

[Ozymandias]

Davka is right... when you really believe that everyone who doesn't have a relationship with Jesus is going to hell (like I once did), then all of your friendships and interactions are colored by this. Your "atheist friends" are not just friends, but saving potential.

 

I would try to speak with the family seriously, let them understand how you have come to your decision, and hope they respect you for it. If they love you for who you are, truly, they should (begrudgingly) accept it, though deep down they will always pray for (and wish for) your eventual conversion. It sounds a bit two-faced, and it is, but it's just how more evangelical forms of Christianity work.

[Kurari]

My reaction on reading your post is yes, it is hurtful, but that is what Christians do. Please, I don't want to minimize it, but honestly, are you really surprised?

 

I guess not surprised...disappointed, maybe? I've been touring around different churches, so I know it's like swimming in a pool of sharks and they have made it clear I smell like fresh chum. But this kind of passive-aggressive, two-faced garbage was a huge problem in my bio-family, and I thought we had come to an understanding with my friend and her family.

 

This is why I really can't have any respect for Christianity, the fascinating ball of insanity that it is.

[Yrth]

Hmm. Do you think its possible your friend might be playing the role of an obedient child, telling her mother what she wanted to hear? I still have trouble navigating social situations which require responses that don't match what I think.

[Vixentrox]

Christians in general are liars and very two faced. They lie to themselves and to others to get people to Jesus. They can't help themselves and can justify almost anything if it's done for god.

[mwc]

I guess it's time to skip the xian services for awhile and let them know you're heading off to some Jewish or Hindu places to take in their worship practices? Maybe they'll accept your offer to come along? Probably not...

 

mwc

[Guest Marty]

I suppose I just walked right into this myself, but I'm feeling a bit wounded right now.

 

My best friend of ten years and her family have kind of adopted me. I get included in their family gatherings and I consider them the family I got gypped out of growing up. They are all also perfectly aware I'm an atheist while they are devout Methodists. In all these years they've never forced me to try to go to church and we've had civil discussions on our beliefs. They've always seemed to be accepting that I was an athiest, and have never tried to push me beyond inviting me to church sometimes for Christmas services and such (which I enjoy).

 

 

I knew what was coming as soon as I read that paragraph...of course they are trying to manipulate you. Go to church with them for whatever reason, and they think it is the HS tugging at your heart. I've been burned by xtians in several business ventures, and I will never do it again. I will never interact with a xtian again unless I have to.

 

I would send your BF the rant you posted here, and then be done with that entire family. otherwise, they will assume they have gotten forgiveness and can continue their covert plan to win your soul back. They never respected you as a person, or liked your company. To them, you were only brownie points for the big invisible hand.

 

Sorry they treated you that way, but they are xtians. They know not what they do...

[Guest Marty]

I guess it's time to skip the xian services for awhile and let them know you're heading off to some Jewish or Hindu places to take in their worship practices? Maybe they'll accept your offer to come along? Probably not...

 

mwc

 

Actually, the thing to do is to NEVER go to church with that family again, and possibly shelter them from knowing of any other churches you may attend in the future. Make sure they know that you are SO disgusted and hurt by their duplicity that you are completely turned off by xtianity now.

 

That way, THEY have become the "someone must have hurt you deeply for you to leave the church like that". Then they can live with the idea that they turned someone away from god!

[Franko47]

If you like these people, you should be willing to accept these kinds of sentiments. It always feels a little wierd when you find out that people you know, or even family, have "secret wishes" for how they wish your life would go. However, if you've enjoyed a decent relationship with these people you should get used to the fact that wanting you to be "saved" is just part of their thinking and world-view/faith thing.

 

I'm sometimes flattered when my Christian friends "pray for me", although if it is for the purpose of "conversion" or in my case "reconversion", then I find it kind of irritating.

[Loren]

Hmm. Do you think its possible your friend might be playing the role of an obedient child, telling her mother what she wanted to hear? I still have trouble navigating social situations which require responses that don't match what I think.

 

This was my first thought, too. To be fair, how many times have we read of a site member here "confessing" to us that they do what your friend did with her mother, not because they truly agree, but because they *have* to, for instance maybe to protect themselves from family backlash.

 

My thinking is that if the friendship is good enough to even call it friendship, then perhaps it would be good to take deep breaths and wait to find out more from your friend about this before writing her off as a friend.

 

The rest of the family, on the other hand...

[Guest Exxian]

From their mindset, you are going to hell. They believe it is a horrible place where you will be tortured for all eternity. Trying to convert you is their own twisted way of saying "we love you".

 

If you value your friendship then I would get your friend alone and ask her if she would send you to hell to be tortured for all eternity for simply not believing she existed. She will probably try to dodge the question by saying something about that decision being up to God, and it's not her place to judge. If she does that then just say that you aren't asking what God would do you are asking what she would do. Put her on the spot and make her realize how messed up God's system of judgment is. If she says she would send you to hell then at least you know where your friendship stands. If she says she wouldn't send you to hell then tell her that she is more moral than God.

[dagnarus]

For my part I think that as long you find that the friendship overall with this group is still good you shouldn't give it up. I remember talking to people when I was still in. The mindfuck of feeling that when you were talking to an unsaved person you needed to get them saved versus not wanting to only be there for the purpose of converting them was really horrible.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Christians in general are liars and very two faced. They lie to themselves and to others to get people to Jesus. They can't help themselves and can justify almost anything if it's done for god.

 

Eh? Your experiences with Christians must have been quite different from mine.

 

I, for one, HATED dishonesty when I was a Christian (and I still do, of course), and I NEVER tried to deceive people. And I honestly believe that most of the Christians I know are decent, HONEST people. They're not liars, they just have a warped worldview and have serious trouble understanding where outsiders are coming from.

 

Maybe there are places where Christians tend to be dishonest, but let's not paint with too broad of a brush. When honest Christians read comments like these that make false accusations against them, it actually tends to strengthen their faith because it makes it sound like we nonbelievers don't know what we're talking about.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I suppose I just walked right into this myself, but I'm feeling a bit wounded right now.

 

My best friend of ten years and her family have kind of adopted me. I get included in their family gatherings and I consider them the family I got gypped out of growing up. They are all also perfectly aware I'm an atheist while they are devout Methodists. In all these years they've never forced me to try to go to church and we've had civil discussions on our beliefs. They've always seemed to be accepting that I was an athiest, and have never tried to push me beyond inviting me to church sometimes for Christmas services and such (which I enjoy).

 

Now, in my own household of blood relations, we were atheist/agnostic. Church and Christianity wasn't part of our lives beyond the fact my mother and father both revealed they had suffered church abuse when they were growing up, and were both Ex-C. So I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to church cultures and the Bible, and being American, sometimes I feel my lack of education leaves me at a disadvantage. Also being the religious geek I am with a great interest in all things regarding gods, myths, and history, I've decided to visit various churches to learn a bit about what drives my society. So far, it's been interestingly educational.

 

This past weekend I visted a Baptist church, and I told my BF about it over IM afterwards. We chatted about it for a bit and all seemed well...until she did a "Mistell" and posted a portion of her conversation with her mother in my window accidently.

 

Her mother said, "Well, it's not the best motivation, but if it gets her going to church regularly. It's time she stopped pretending and let Jesus tell her what he's been trying to tell her all these years."

 

My friend, "Yes, it's a step in the right direction."

 

My friend was mortified when she realized what she had done, and tried to apologize, but I signed out and haven't signed back in again or spoken to her until I get my thoughts together.

 

I suppose it is my own fault and I can't really blame them for thinking my curiosity is begging for assimilation into the Christian Borg...but the fact they were talking about this behind my back and apperantly have always thought I was silly and "ignoring" Jesus just hurts. I've been honest, and THEY are the ones who have lied to ME. Now I wonder if they've been trying to manipulate me all this time and I'm second guessing memories. I feel like a fool.

 

I'm not sure how to take this, but I feel better having somewhere to go and talk about it with people who understand.

 

Since you've apparently never been a Christian or raised in a Christian environment, I can see how it would likely be difficult to understand what they're doing. And if they were really being dishonest and manipulative, then shame on them. But, as a former Christian, I can understand where your friends are likely coming from. They probably truly believe that you'll be condemned to hell for eternity if you don't become a believer, so they're praying and hoping that you'll "see the light." The text that was sent to you by accident was probably part of a conversation where they were sharing their concern for you.

 

Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine that you really, REALLY believed that if a friend of yours didn't do something, then that person would inevitably have SEVERE and PERMANENT consequences from it. Now, if you really cared for this friend, wouldn't you want that person to do the thing that would avert those severe consequences? I imagine that your answer would be "yes."

 

Well, that is precisely what your friends are probably thinking. The severe and permanent consequence they want you to avoid is "hell," and the thing that you need to do to avoid it is "trust Jesus," and so they're hoping and praying that you will. It is very likely not even dawning on them that there's a chance that THEY may be wrong and YOU may be right in your beliefs. Those brought up only knowing the Christian worldview often have a VERY difficult time thinking outside the box.

[Vixentrox]

Christians in general are liars and very two faced. They lie to themselves and to others to get people to Jesus. They can't help themselves and can justify almost anything if it's done for god.

 

Eh? Your experiences with Christians must have been quite different from mine.

 

I, for one, HATED dishonesty when I was a Christian (and I still do, of course), and I NEVER tried to deceive people. And I honestly believe that most of the Christians I know are decent, HONEST people. They're not liars, they just have a warped worldview and have serious trouble understanding where outsiders are coming from.

 

Maybe there are places where Christians tend to be dishonest, but let's not paint with too broad of a brush. When honest Christians read comments like these that make false accusations against them, it actually tends to strengthen their faith because it makes it sound like we nonbelievers don't know what we're talking about.

They lie to themselves by believeing what they not ain't so....invisible men, talking animals, giants. And if they believe in these things truely then they have more serious issues. They lie about thier faith....if they truely believed in hell they wouldn't be so passive. They lie about the history of thier religion. They lie when they say "love your nieghbor" but then act like completed assholes or condescending to people not of the flock.

[mwc]

Actually, the thing to do is to NEVER go to church with that family again, and possibly shelter them from knowing of any other churches you may attend in the future. Make sure they know that you are SO disgusted and hurt by their duplicity that you are completely turned off by xtianity now.

 

That way, THEY have become the "someone must have hurt you deeply for you to leave the church like that". Then they can live with the idea that they turned someone away from god!

Yeah, you're probably right. Just tell them that your "research" on xianity is over and they're the cause (or should I say "stumbling block?"). You won't be coming back to that religion of hypocrites...ever. So now you're off to greener pastures. And to think you were almost going to ask about being baptized and everything. Oh well. So close.

 

mwc

[Guest Marty]

 

Maybe there are places where Christians tend to be dishonest, but let's not paint with too broad of a brush. When honest Christians read comments like these that make false accusations against them, it actually tends to strengthen their faith because it makes it sound like we nonbelievers don't know what we're talking about.

 

I have never met an honest xtian. I thought I had on a few occasions, but in reality, they are only biding their time hoping you will convert. I've had xtian business partners, therapists, girlfriends, and friends, and everything about them is built only on the chance you will re-convert. Eventually, when they realize that I will not fall for it again, they realize they've wasted their time and they change their attitude toward me drastically. Every one. Maybe they are not "overt" liars, but they will change facts, hide information, or pretend they didn't know something just to try and get you back in the fold. That's still lying.

 

I have yet to meet one that didn't try...

[ShallowByThyGame]

Hmm, I can understand them wanting you to see their 'truth' just as I'm sure you'd be delighted to discover The God Delusion in your bf's closet or something. You can't be mad at them for being human in that sense. We all like to be able to share our beliefs with those who are like-minded...hence this board

 

However, if they really claimed to accept your beliefs as 'okay' while secretly gossiping about your salvation, then ouch.

 

I would talk to your bf. Let them know that this is not a game to you. You refuse to be manipulated. If they can not live comfortably with your atheism then they should not pretend that they can, because it is deception.

 

This is typical though...I once opened my heart to my sister-in-law, and came away thinking she was accepting me for who I am. In reality she was secretly resolving to protect my nephew from my ideas. (Instead of, I don't know, letting him make up his own damn mind)

[★ Citsonga ★]

They lie to themselves by believeing what they not ain't so....invisible men, talking animals, giants.

 

No, these people really do believe this stuff. I know I did when I was a Christian, and pretty much all the Christians I knew believed it. There probably are some who deep down know that it's not quite true, but trust me, lots of others do believe it.

 

And if they believe in these things truely then they have more serious issues.

 

Exactly! They have serious issues, just like I did. I was brainwashed from infancy to believe all that shit, and it can be VERY difficult for someone so thoroughly brainwashed to see through it.

 

They lie about thier faith....if they truely believed in hell they wouldn't be so passive.

 

Many of them are not passive.

 

They lie about the history of thier religion.

 

No, they reiterate the bullshit they were brainwashed with about the history of their religion. Making a false statement is NOT a lie if the person really believes it to be true.

 

They lie when they say "love your nieghbor" but then act like completed assholes or condescending to people not of the flock.

 

A lot of Christians do NOT act like complete assholes. I never did, and I haven't seen very many others act that way. Some, yes, but not most. At least not of the ones I know.

 

Maybe the Christians you've been exposed to have mostly been like you've described, but I honestly haven't seen very much of that in my 36 years of life (29 years of which were deeply rooted in the church).

 

All I was trying to get at with my previous comments is that sincere, honest believers LIKE I WAS FOR YEARS only have their faith STRENGTHENED when they see nonbelievers make broad-brushed false accusations that they're just a bunch of liars.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

I have never met an honest xtian.

 

Sorry to hear that. As I've stated previously, most of the Christians I know are honest, and I was when I was a Christian. I have ALWAYS hated dishonesty (well, other than when I was a youngster and lied to get out of trouble; when I say "always" I mean after childhood).

 

Maybe I would have been better off if I had been around more of these dishonest Christians. I suppose I may have questioned the foundation of my faith a lot sooner if I had been exposed to that.

 

I thought I had on a few occasions, but in reality, they are only biding their time hoping you will convert. I've had xtian business partners, therapists, girlfriends, and friends, and everything about them is built only on the chance you will re-convert. Eventually, when they realize that I will not fall for it again, they realize they've wasted their time and they change their attitude toward me drastically. Every one. Maybe they are not "overt" liars, but they will change facts, hide information, or pretend they didn't know something just to try and get you back in the fold. That's still lying.

 

I have yet to meet one that didn't try...

 

Wow. Maybe there are a lot more deceptive Christians than what I've come across in my religious circles.

 

When I was a Christian, of course I wanted others to be "saved," and I would pray for people and be willing to "help" them where I could, but I would NEVER have deceived them. And I really don't believe that most of the Christians I know would do that either. A few, but not a lot.

 

I guess that's part of why it took finding internal problems in the Bible to get me to start questioning my faith. My worldview had been ingrained in me practically from birth, and the Christians I was surrounded with were decent, honest people (I was aware of a few outright hypocrites, but they weren't the norm, and they weren't respected by the other Christians). So, everything looked pretty rock-solid until the Bible started to unravel before my eyes.

 

And anyone claiming that all Christians are liars would be COMPLETELY written off as ignorant (or downright lying themselves) by me, because I KNEW (and still know) that it isn't true.

[Guest Davka]

I'm with Citsonga. Sure, there are some dishonest schmucks in the church, but most of them are no better or worse than the average person. And if we're honest with ourselves, all of us hide things and misrepresent ourselves to some degree in order to get people to see us in a certain light. It's human nature.

 

I don't think Christians are any more likely to be dishonest than anyone else*. Deceived, brainwashed, and clueless, sure - but not dishonest. They're just people. You want truly dishonest religious jerks, try Scientology.

 

*TV Evangelists are not included, since they are not, in fact, people.

[dagnarus]

I know the conversation is over but I just thought I'd like to give my two cents. I think it's important to point out here that there are probably very few people who believe that lying is a moral absolute. For example I don't think that many people would consider those people who lied to the gestapo to protect Jews were dishonest people. They may have been being dishonest to the gestapo but that didn't necessarily make them dishonest people. We should probably keep that in mind when dealing with christians. They know with certainty that if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to suffer a fate far worse than death. Thus it shouldn't be shocking to find that in certain instances they would omit certain facts that might weaken your faith or which they perceive might prevent you from believing in Jesus. My sect liked to encourage all the members of the church to give testimonies and to speak about things they learned from the bible or what not at their meetings. Whenever I did this I found that I was continually looking through my experience and vetting it to find stuff which corroborated what I then knew to be true and ignoring stuff that didn't line up with it. Was this dishonest yes, but at the time the thought was that the worst thing I could possibly do was weaken somebody's faith, whereas the best thing I could do was to encourage others to go on in Christ. Another thing is that while I was in the sect we were encouraged to not investigate things for fear that Satan might get our minds, after leaving I investigated some of the goings on I found out about obvious politically fighting, and fuck ups which were spun to help whatever the group wanted to be the truth.

 

Anyway my point is I would say based on what I have seen that christians are generally just as honest as everybody else except in one regard. You (again in general) cannot trust them about things relating to their faith. They have either made themselves willfully ignorant of the bad stuff or they will make a point of not allowing you to find out about it because you don't yet have the spiritual maturity to disregard the enemies lies like they do. I wouldn't doubt that this is the reason why many people protected the pedophile priests and any number of other religious cover-ups.