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Goodbye Jesus

The Pains And Joys Of Procreation


Midnight-mindwanderings

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I have recently found myself to be pregnant with baby number two. This news has been met with mixed irritation and excitement. My first child was quite unexpected and unplanned, and this one is coming at a much better time. But I hadn't really wanted to be one of those 22 year old moms with multiple children, and I start to fear that the ease at which we do get pregnant will only lead to more and more unplanned babies. And honestly, the idea of a lot of kids absolutely terrifies me. (I get nightmares about Jon and Kate and the Duggars. Take out my uterus before that happens!)

 

My other issue is the demographic that we are in at this time. My husband is in the Air Force, we are in our early twenties and about to have 2 kids. Pretty much everyone else we have met (thus far) in the military (especially with kids) is Christian. Now, I don't have anything against Christians just for the sake of their religion. Not at all. It is a bit difficult, however, when you have kids. Because young Christian families have a lot of ideas about how to raise children correctly and I do not follow these ideas at all. My child rearing includes dancing to Lady Ga Ga, drawing on the walls, watching the Simpsons and playing with bugs and does not include church or attitude training. I think forward to when she is older and going to school - and hopefully having friends - not knowing much of anything about the Christian religion. I don't want her to be overly weird but a little weird is a good thing. I was a weird kid and I was happy, so I should probably not worry about it.

 

But worry is something that moms do. I worry that my first child does not have friends because other moms do not like me or approve of the way I raise her. At least having a sibling she will not be alone so much. I worry that maybe I do not discipline her enough and she will end up spoiled. But she is healthy and happy and loved, and I try to remind myself what is really important. She just turned 2, a bit young for much teaching anyway, especially since she barely talks and isn't potty trained yet.

 

I know I am by no means alone in this boat, but it feels like it sometimes. No one else in my family, or my husband's, is having kids. None of my friends, except one I know only online, has kids. And though I have tried, I cannot seem to make friends with the young military moms in my area.

 

Certain members of my family have been oh so subtly sending Christian themed books for both my kid and for me on how to raise her (now them) and I have the feeling that will only continue as she gets older. I don't have the heart to tell my grandmother with cancer to stop sending books about Moses (I can't read a book full of torturous plagues to my toddler!) and books about raising Christian children in an unchristian world. I have learned from experience that even asking them to stop does nothing (I used to get books upon books about how to date Christian boys amongst less subtle hints to dump my now husband).

 

What am I looking for in writing about all of this? I dunno. Maybe someone out there feels my pain. Maybe someone has advice on how to make friends with the super Christian new moms. Or how to just survive without close friends. I can only hope that the next place we move is more of a city than this town because resources here are slim. Also, I hope this one is a boy. I don't know if I can survive two teenage daughters...

 

(Can you tell that my hormones are already impeding my ability to think in a straight line? I'm telling you...)

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First of all congratulations on your pregnancy, it must be exciting. I just noticed you sounded worried about your little girl being 2 and not potty training. I work in childcare and we have children that are 3 and over who still have no interest in being toilet trained. So rest assured you are doing fine. I have rarely seen a 2 yr old fully toilet trained. Perhaps as they get closer to 3 the issue needs to be looked at, but really the child will know when they are ready and it will all happen quicky and smoothly.

 

I think you need to just learn to be strong in your own convictions about what you want for your children and how you choose to raise them. That's the thing with christians, is that they are always pushing their own moralities and ethics onto other people. When I look back at the things I used to say and do I just cringe in embarrassment now. It's hard making friends, but push through and you will. It's a lot easier to do it with children though. Just start talking to other mothers and keep asking them around for coffee and let the kids play. When the kids go to school ask the mother of your children's friends to come around as well if you have the children over to play. Thats how I did it. It is a harsh world out there. You have a lot to offer someone though. All the best to you with your pregnancy. :grin:

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- Kathlene

 

Thanks a lot for your encouragement. I write this after living here for over a year and still having no friends, though several false starts. I get invited to church and when I decline I never hear from them again. I still have high hopes for the next place we move to. This is a tech school so people are a little strung out. Anyway, thanks for your advice, I will surely persevere. And I will keep putting myself out there. Like I said, I know I am not the only one (even in my area I am sure) I just haven't found others yet. Also I know 2 isn't necessarily the age of potty training. She had started to be, and has now regressed. Maybe she knows something's different with mommy :).

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Hi, MM.

I don't have kids, but a couple of things popped to mind reading your posts.

 

One which no doubt your very aware of is that if there's any single thing that tends to be true of military families, it would be frequent changes of community. Of all the friends and acquaintances I've had who've been in the military, almost all of them were moved around the country (or the world) quite often. So, while sometimes that can be kind of hard on the kids in the realms of friends and school, still, if your family is stuck in some tiny backwater community or something, almost certainly your situation will change before too long.

 

Another thing that came to mind is more of a general psychological truism I learned some time ago. It's that everybody loves to have someone ask their expert opinion. So having kids is kind of a built-in topic for you. Even if you have absolutely nothing else in common with another mom, you'll always have some area of parenting which will allow you to ask, "Say, when your kids do (blank), how do you deal with it?" Or, "What's your approach to (blank)?"

 

Once in a while, you might actually hear something useful, and far more often, even if they respond with something you don't want, they'll still tend to be very warmly disposed toward you, just because you asked their opinion. For a moment, you've made them something of an expert authority, and who among us doesn't love it when somebody offers us that bit of respect? I've found it's the kind of tactic that can melt icebergs. Of course, you might get something like, "Potty training? Well when little Buford was eighteen months old, we took him to the Holy and Apostolic Pentecostal Church of Christ On A Stick, and the whole congregation gathered around him in a circle of Anointed Prayer Warriors to CAST OUT the DEMONS of NOT BEING POTTY TRAINED! Here's some of our literature. We meet every Monday, Tuesday, twice on Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and five times on Sunday."

 

But this is a matter of developing through practice the intuitions to know what questions to ask, who to ask them of, how far to take it, and how to handle it graciously when you need to back off from them without hurting their feelings.

 

One last thing is that when you mentioned the people who invited you to their church and then showed no further interest when you didn't want to attend with them, I immediately thought of a lesson I've learned which has proven to be extremely consistently true over my forty-six years, which is that folks who appear to be shallow and superficial when I'm outside their social circle are still shallow and superficial when they've accepted me into their circle. If those folks are shallow enough to lose interest in you as a person because you didn't want to go to their church, then even if you had done everything they wanted, and they had accepted you as a "friend," it would still only be a friendship of superficial church shit and nothing more. When someone like that cuts ties with you, you haven't lost anything; There wasn't really anything there to be gained in the first place.

 

Boy, for someone who never had kids, I do run on, don't I?

 

Loren

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I don't (and won't) ever have kids, so I can't give you advice in that arena - what I CAN tell you though, is if your hubby is in tech school, hang on until you get to your permanent station. Lots of people "find Jesus" (or religion of some kind) in basics and tech school, and once they are back out into the world, that often will disappear. You will most likely find more people of a similar mindset at least in that regard once you are out of the tech school world.

 

If this is your permanent station, then try getting out into the community more - there are bound to be groups with similar interests (especially if you enjoy art, you should be able to find some groups into that) and seek out friends outside of the military base. I think you'll be happier once you get away from the military wives type of circles.

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I wouldn't worry too much about making a lot of friends at the tech school base. Your here today, gone tomorrow. Even the longest schools are rarely a year long. You might want to get on the net and start reasearching where your permenant duty station will be if you know yet. Usually there is a sponser program to help the military member get adjusted but often they have a spousal sponsership program too, or at least they used to. If you end up going overseas you'll find the communities are much more tightly knit so I doubt you'll have a lot of trouble finding someone to be friends with.

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Congrats on your pregnancy Midnight,

 

My only advice is to hold on to every moment, it really goes by fast. There are plenty of things to do without churches. Look into story time at the local library, you can volunteer to read or just help out and it's a great way to meet people. Also look for arts and music, many like minded parents will be doing those things too. Some library's have arts and crafts for smaller kids too, Look for area puppet shows, music for small children (kiddy concerts) and so on. I'm just throwing out ideas of course, but do things that hold your interests as well.

 

As far as books from your Gram, I'd keep them more as a keep sake, and wouldn't focus to much on the story's. Put the books in a hope chest and give them to her when she's older as something that her great grandmother gave her when she was a baby. This doesn't cause stress between you and your ill Grandmother, and will give your daughter something from her past that she's to young to remember now.

 

As far as other family members, (unless they are over baring, then that's all together different) but I'd just smile and say thanks for the helpful advice and carry on the way you want to do things. Be who you are and don't ever apologize for it.

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Although I don't have children so can't advise in that capacity, I think that it would be worth your while to actively search out other non-religious parents. In a situation like yours, there may be only 2-3 that you find and you may not become best friends with them, but I still think it would be a relief and a normalizing feeling to have found them. There are certain to be others like yourself who haven't found a place to "come out".

 

Post on Meetup.com or Craigslist in your area that you'd like to meet once a week with your children for a "secular parenting" play group (or maybe use the words freethinking or humanist). At worst, no one comes or you don't connect with the people you've met and you've wasted a few afternoons, but at best you'll find other parents who feel the way you do. Since people don't wear signs announcing their lack of religion, you becoming the catalyst for meeting up may be the only way you'll find them.

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As far as books from your Gram, I'd keep them more as a keep sake, and wouldn't focus to much on the story's. Put the books in a hope chest and give them to her when she's older as something that her great grandmother gave her when she was a baby. This doesn't cause stress between you and your ill Grandmother, and will give your daughter something from her past that she's to young to remember now.

It will also give you (MM) a way to be able to look your grandmother in the eye and honestly say that you are, in fact, keeping those books for a time when your daughter is old enough to understand them. You just won't be telling her in what sense you mean the word, "understand." Your grandmother will make the natural assumption which a christian would and probably be satisfied.

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Guest ephymeris

Hi MM! Congrats on the pregnancy! I don't have kids myself (but we're working on it!) so I won't offer you any advice. You sound like a patient and sane mommy to me anyways. I love that you respect "weirdness" as a virtue, I do too! :D

 

I wanted to post because I can sorta relate to your "new gal in town" dilemma though I'm not military. I lived in the same small town for 24 years of my life until my husband wanted to move 10 hours from our home town to go to school. I left a job I loved, our families, our lifetime friends, and my comfort zone to move to a town where I felt isolated and hated my job. I was painfully shy meeting new people or going out in social situations but I finally met new people! I met some through my husband's school but I too did the meetup.com thing (I joined running, biking, and gaming groups). I "got out there" and also had a few parties at my own home to meet potential new friends. It helped for me to have them over because people usually feel obligated to at least say hi to the hostess and that made it easier for me to talk to folks!

 

I know this is cliche, but I kind of look at the social scene as fishing. I met a lot of great people who were keepers but I also met some folks that were more "catch and release" if you know what I mean! I also found a new job that I love and that has a diverse group of people who are also becoming my new friends. My newest crazy idea to make friends: playing on a kickball league. If you knew how much I detest competitive sports involving balls, you'd know why I never thought I'd sign up for this! But it's helping me make friends and get out of my comfort zone. My only advice is keep reaching out to folks and take the risk to get to know them. If they think you are weird or are superficial jerks, that's their problem!!

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If you're worried about more kids, there's lots you can do. Please check out Planned Parenthood if you don't know the technology available to you.

 

I have not experience with military wives, but you don't owe them anything. A mother I know quit all her 'mommy' groups because it was all gossip and judging anyway. There may be a skeptics group nearby that could provide you with friends will have at least more solid thinking.

 

And in case you don't know of this guy, there might be useful resources here: Parenting Beyond Belief (www.parentingbeyondbelief.com)

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You guys give a lot of good ideas. You are right about the tech school thing - everyone seems a bit crazy here and most people leave after a few months. And a lot of people get divorced in the short time they are here. Its just hard because my husband's language is Korean and we have been here for a year already and will be here for another few months. At this point I don't mind so much not having friends since I would leave them here shortly. I look forward to spending some time back home for 4 months, though my husband will not be there. He has a second tech school that I cannot go with him for and during that time I will be living with his parents in my home town. After that, we are not sure where we will be going, possibly Korea otherwise probably Maryland. And those bases will be much more welcoming and community oriented than this area.

I have tried a bit to get into community events but I do not have a car and the bus systems isn't very good. Its quite a walk to the bus stop and not something I have the energy to do very often. In addition to not having a car, I don't have a cell phone and this makes a lot of people feel like I am hard to get a hold of. Just can't afford it at this time. Sometimes I feel lonely about not having 'real life' friends and keep up with friendships online only. Other times I feel quite fulfilled in my privacy and intimate play times with my daughter. I keep in mind that this stay is very temporary and boredom will not kill me. Plus being on this site and other forums like it helps :grin:

 

I did make one friend here, actually deconverted her (though she wasn't new to that idea as she filters through a lot of religious beliefs). She was one that got divorced a few months after I met her and became another online friend - cared for dearly, but not all together the same as someone to hang out or going shopping with. I know my mom made a few life long friends while my dad was in the military. One, the mom of my childhood friend, lives near her once again and they get together all the time. I too have remained good friends with her daughter though I have not seen her in about 3 years. But I know that even in the constant shift of the military environment people make long lasting friendships that mean a lot and I am looking forward to that in the coming years.

 

And to my fears of having more kids, well, I am taking more aggressive action (an IUD) that for some reason I was too scared to do after my first. Over that fear! More permanent fertility stopping measures we'll hold off on for a while, which is good since doctors will rarely 'fix' anyone under the age of 30 or so anyway.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for the suggestions and the support! Even people without kids - you have good advice on making friends and I am more than willing to make friends with people without kids (it is easier in my experience anyway).

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Korea is a LOT of fun...just don't become a typical dumbass American that's afraid to make friends with locals or head out away from the bases. You'll enjoy it much more if you make friends with the local people. When I was there I was out all the time mountain hiking, seeing the sights, and hanging out with Koreans. Far better then hanging out with Americans for sure. I spent three years total in Korea (stationed there two different times) and I still think it's one of the best assignments I ever had.

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Congrats on the coming arrival!

 

As some others have expressed, I wouldn't worry about becoming friends with the Christian Uber Mothers.

 

The way I meet others is to go to the bar or pick a Sunday when everyone is in church and go someplace most Christians do not go on Sundays during church hours. Sometimes I meet xtians at the bar but most are not fanatical about their beliefs.

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