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Give Us Scientific Proof For Creationism

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The scientific proof for creationism is simple. Science itself proves creationism. Think about this.

I'm thinking... but, no, creationism doesn't come to mind.

 

In the naturalistic evolutionary epistemology things are constantly changing things are constantly evolving and there are no constants. Yet science proves there are laws and constants in nature. Gravity is a constant its an absolute.

Absoluteness doesn't prove creation. Absoluteness proves absoluteness.

 

When you drop somthign you know it will hit the ground and not float up into space. Time. You know that for a certian amount of hours in a day it will be dark and it will get light.

Because that's how nature works. So Nature created Nature. Is that Creationism to you?

 

The very foundation of science ASSUMES creation.

It does not.

 

Science is based on the 5 senses in which a scientist will observe, test and reproduce an experiment. However if natural evolution is correct how does the scientist know that his 5 senses are working properly? And lets say the experiment is done millions of times nad produces the same result and a scientific law is made. That is an assumption that in times past and in the future things have been the same. Science assumes the uniformity of nature and assumes a law like order to nature. But how is this possible if there is NO LAW GIVER? It isn't. Its simply rubbish.

It's simply rubbish to assume that laws of Nature must have a creator. Does God follow laws? Does God have a nature? Then God must have a Creator.

 

To argue assumptions does not prove your point.

 

Since there are laws in nature, the almighty Pixie King Blorgh must have made them.

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Guest FaithDefender619

 

The scientific proof for creationism is simple. Science itself proves creationism. Think about this.

I'm thinking... but, no, creationism doesn't come to mind.

 

In the naturalistic evolutionary epistemology things are constantly changing things are constantly evolving and there are no constants. Yet science proves there are laws and constants in nature. Gravity is a constant its an absolute.

Absoluteness doesn't prove creation. Absoluteness proves absoluteness.

 

When you drop somthign you know it will hit the ground and not float up into space. Time. You know that for a certian amount of hours in a day it will be dark and it will get light.

Because that's how nature works. So Nature created Nature. Is that Creationism to you?

 

The very foundation of science ASSUMES creation.

It does not.

 

Science is based on the 5 senses in which a scientist will observe, test and reproduce an experiment. However if natural evolution is correct how does the scientist know that his 5 senses are working properly? And lets say the experiment is done millions of times nad produces the same result and a scientific law is made. That is an assumption that in times past and in the future things have been the same. Science assumes the uniformity of nature and assumes a law like order to nature. But how is this possible if there is NO LAW GIVER? It isn't. Its simply rubbish.

It's simply rubbish to assume that laws of Nature must have a creator. Does God follow laws? Does God have a nature? Then God must have a Creator.

 

To argue assumptions does not prove your point.

 

Since there are laws in nature, the almighty Pixie King Blorgh must have made them.

 

1. Give me one example where order comes from chaos. If I put shake up a bag of alphabet cereal and pour it out I'm not going to get Shakespeare's Othello

 

2. Yeah it does. Order does not come from chaos. If there are laws there must be a law giver. Naturalistic evolution doesn't provide for order and structure. Something that is true one minute is false the next.

 

3. Not in your world view it doesn't. It could drop to the ground or fly off into space. Your world view copies mine in that you assume law like traits to nature but aren't willing to make the logical step that to have laws a law giver must be in place.

 

4. Yes it does. It assumes the uniformity of nature. The uniformity of nature is only possible in a creation world view. Naturalistic evolution cannot account for laws or a uniform nature.

 

5. No its not. How did the laws come to exist by chaos? Show me one time when chaos created order. And if evolution is correct how do you know your 5 senses are wired correctly to interpret scientific data? for all Darwin knew he could have been in San Diego, Ca and those finches could have been dogs. Evolution is a self defeating pseudo-science. Evolution cannot account for the uniformity of nature.

 

6. Now do we really need to resort to such childish tactics.

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1. Give me one example where order comes from chaos. If I put shake up a bag of alphabet cereal and pour it out I'm not going to get Shakespeare's Othello

Define chaos and order.

 

2. Yeah it does. Order does not come from chaos. If there are laws there must be a law giver. Naturalistic evolution doesn't provide for order and structure. Something that is true one minute is false the next.

Order and chaos are only two aspect of the same things. Order comes from chaos just like chaos comes from order.

 

We call the laws in science, but that doesn't mean they were created as "laws."

 

Naturalistic evolution does indeed provide an explanation for order and structure. Genetic algorithms have been used many times over to improve technology and even computer networks.

 

3. Not in your world view it doesn't. It could drop to the ground or fly off into space. Your world view copies mine in that you assume law like traits to nature but aren't willing to make the logical step that to have laws a law giver must be in place.

Eh? In my word gravity does not exist? Are you dumb? If naturalistic science explains gravity, then gravity does not exist? What kind of stupid logic are you using? If you claim that logic is absolute, then use it correctly.

 

The laws of nature are eternal.

 

Why? Because if you claim they are absolute, then they must exist for all time, everywhere, and for everyone. So if that's true, gravity as an absolute law, must have existed eternally.

 

Or do you want to retract that "absoluteness" of gravity now?

 

4. Yes it does. It assumes the uniformity of nature. The uniformity of nature is only possible in a creation world view. Naturalistic evolution cannot account for laws or a uniform nature.

No it does not. It does not require creation to be true. The laws of nature are eternal.

 

5. No its not. How did the laws come to exist by chaos? Show me one time when chaos created order. And if evolution is correct how do you know your 5 senses are wired correctly to interpret scientific data? for all Darwin knew he could have been in San Diego, Ca and those finches could have been dogs. Evolution is a self defeating pseudo-science. Evolution cannot account for the uniformity of nature.

Who talks about chaos? You. Not me. The laws of nature are eternal. Especially if they're absolute.

 

And what do you mean with uniformity of nature? There are so many differences and competing systems that the uniformity is not quite there. I'm not sure what you mean with that.

 

6. Now do we really need to resort to such childish tactics.

Do we really need to resort to such childish beliefs as God, Jesus, Bible, miracles, and all those fairy tales? Your Bible and your stories are nothing but Santa Claus stories to me. I believe strongly that you're the one being extremely childish, delusional, and fooled by your religion. When I read your opinions, I think of a stubborn 8 year old who refuse to listen to reason and arguments. They are so determined they're right about their imaginary friend, and there is no way to get them to see different.

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FWIW, the repeated questioning of "where does order come from chaos" is the argument from ignorance.

 

FD can't see how it could happen, doesn't know, hasn't studied the matter (other than reading other credulous Christians), and so he ascribes any order to God.

 

God makes every Goddamned little friggin' snowflake. That's why he's too busy this time of year to answer prayers.

 

Really, the lack of imagination, effort and thought are as silly as the joke:

 

"If there is no God, then Who pops up the next Kleenex?"

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"If there is no God, then Who pops up the next Kleenex?"

The Kleenex Fairy, everyone knows that. :Doh:

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FWIW, the repeated questioning of "where does order come from chaos" is the argument from ignorance.

 

FD can't see how it could happen, doesn't know, hasn't studied the matter (other than reading other credulous Christians), and so he ascribes any order to God.

 

God makes every Goddamned little friggin' snowflake. That's why he's too busy this time of year to answer prayers.

 

Really, the lack of imagination, effort and thought are as silly as the joke:

 

"If there is no God, then Who pops up the next Kleenex?"

 

Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time. Doing experiments is a waste of time. Because science assumes the uniformity of nature but if its all chaos then how can you make such a fallacious assumption? Hundreds of years of scientific research could be undone in an instant if this were true. But its not, which is why there are libraries full of scientific works that attest to the uniformity of nature. That attest to natural laws. How does law and order come from chaos? That is simply absurd.

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God makes every Goddamned little friggin' snowflake. That's why he's too busy this time of year to answer prayers.

 

 

Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time.

 

Uh, FD, I already did.

 

Stop and think: Water vapor = chaos. Snowflake = ordered chrystalline formation with symmetry.

 

I could give more, like diamonds. And even more than that. Lots more.

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Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time. Doing experiments is a waste of time. Because science assumes the uniformity of nature but if its all chaos then how can you make such a fallacious assumption? Hundreds of years of scientific research could be undone in an instant if this were true. But its not, which is why there are libraries full of scientific works that attest to the uniformity of nature. That attest to natural laws. How does law and order come from chaos? That is simply absurd.

 

Read up on Chaos theory and then come back when you realize how foolish everything you just said is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

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God makes every Goddamned little friggin' snowflake. That's why he's too busy this time of year to answer prayers.

 

 

Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time.

 

Uh, FD, I already did.

 

Stop and think: Water vapor = chaos. Snowflake = ordered chrystalline formation with symmetry.

 

I could give more, like diamonds. And even more than that. Lots more.

 

Water vapor didn't come from chaos. You boil or heat water and you get vapor that vapor didn't just pop out of no where.

 

Simply because no two snowflakes are alike doesn't mean they came from chaos. No two bags of skittles are alike and they are created.

 

Diamonds come from coal and pressure.

 

If a diamond fell from the sky that might prove chaos but that doesn't happen. If I mixed up a bag of alphabet cereal and wound up with Othello or the Gaelic Wars that would prove order from chaos. But unfortunately we don't see that happen. You might get a sentence like See spot run or a word or two but immediately after its going to go right back to jibberish.

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Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time. Doing experiments is a waste of time. Because science assumes the uniformity of nature but if its all chaos then how can you make such a fallacious assumption? Hundreds of years of scientific research could be undone in an instant if this were true. But its not, which is why there are libraries full of scientific works that attest to the uniformity of nature. That attest to natural laws. How does law and order come from chaos? That is simply absurd.

 

Read up on Chaos theory and then come back when you realize how foolish everything you just said is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

yep still not impressed. A fairly tale for grown ups is all it is.

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God makes every Goddamned little friggin' snowflake. That's why he's too busy this time of year to answer prayers.

 

 

Give one example of something you observed that came from chaos. Just one. Science has never observed this nor will they ever because the simple fact is if chaos did create the world then science is a waste of time.

 

Uh, FD, I already did.

 

Stop and think: Water vapor = chaos. Snowflake = ordered chrystalline formation with symmetry.

 

I could give more, like diamonds. And even more than that. Lots more.

 

Water vapor didn't come from chaos. You boil or heat water and you get vapor that vapor didn't just pop out of no where.

 

Simply because no two snowflakes are alike doesn't mean they came from chaos. No two bags of skittles are alike and they are created.

 

Diamonds come from coal and pressure.

 

If a diamond fell from the sky that might prove chaos but that doesn't happen. If I mixed up a bag of alphabet cereal and wound up with Othello or the Gaelic Wars that would prove order from chaos. But unfortunately we don't see that happen. You might get a sentence like See spot run or a word or two but immediately after its going to go right back to jibberish.

You really don't understand, do you?

 

Chaos = higher entropy, Order = lower entropy.

 

So natural processes that result in lower entropy are examples of what you are talking about.

 

You really don't understand that? Wow. I mean, really, wow. I'm stunned.

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yep still not impressed. A fairly tale for grown ups is all it is.

 

Odd that there is so much evidence for it then...well it is not that odd considering your ability to ignore any evidence that contradicts your preconceived notions.

 

It is easy to demonstrate chaos theory at work, take a coin a flip it, and predict which side it will land on, and you cannot do so with consistency, but flip the coin a billion times and you can predict a 50/50 average will occur almost every time. That is chaos theory at work, the Chaotic behaviors of individual components of system can produce ordered results within the system as a whole. It DOES happen, it has been observed within certain systems.

 

It is not our fault you are an ignoramus with no knowledge of science or basic logic.

 

The fact that you are not impressed is no more the point than person who claims the moon landing was a hoax is not impressed by satellite pictures of the lunar lander ON THE MOON. He, like you, has made up his mind long before the evidence came in. It is clear that teaching you basic science is a waste of time because you do not care for facts.

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You really don't understand that? Wow. I mean, really, wow. I'm stunned.

 

Your stunned? I'm not.

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Water vapor didn't come from chaos. You boil or heat water and you get vapor that vapor didn't just pop out of no where.

 

Simply because no two snowflakes are alike doesn't mean they came from chaos. No two bags of skittles are alike and they are created.

 

Diamonds come from coal and pressure.

 

If a diamond fell from the sky that might prove chaos but that doesn't happen. If I mixed up a bag of alphabet cereal and wound up with Othello or the Gaelic Wars that would prove order from chaos. But unfortunately we don't see that happen. You might get a sentence like See spot run or a word or two but immediately after its going to go right back to jibberish.

 

No these are the sorts of things we should expect to happen if there WERE a god, you are the one who claims matter was created ex-nihilo. These things are not examples of Order vs. Chaos. You do not even understand the proper definitions of the words you are using so how can we have a reasonable conversation with you?

 

 

The problem is that you clearly do not understand Chaos theory at all. Did you even READ The article I gave you or was Wikipedia over your poor little head?

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Either God designs every snowflake or He is engaging in chaos theory.

 

Designing every living thing on Earth right down to the most redundant nucleotides must have kept him busy. No wonder the Universe sat here for 13 billion years before man showed up.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought one day....."you know, I think I will use the process of physics and natural selection in order to save a little time".

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Here's another conundrum:

 

If God created order out of chaos, then God the theological view of ex nihilo is wrong. Nothing is not the same as chaos. So God didn't create out of nothing, but God created the Universe from something else (chaos). So Christianity is contradicting itself here.

 

And the other problem is, if God created order out of chaos, where did the chaos come from? From God?

 

And the last problem is to define what order and chaos is. Order is based on how we can understand and compare things against other things we consider chaos. How can we declare this universe to be ordered if we can't compare it to a true chaotic universe?

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Here's another conundrum:

 

If God created order out of chaos, then God the theological view of ex nihilo is wrong. Nothing is not the same as chaos. So God didn't create out of nothing, but God created the Universe from something else (chaos). So Christianity is contradicting itself here.

 

And the other problem is, if God created order out of chaos, where did the chaos come from? From God?

 

And the last problem is to define what order and chaos is. Order is based on how we can understand and compare things against other things we consider chaos. How can we declare this universe to be ordered if we can't compare it to a true chaotic universe?

 

Who said God created order out of chaos? There you go again arguing points I didn't make. The whole premise of this post is based on arguments I didn't make. God spoke the universe into existance He didn't need to make anything with anything.

 

Now to assert that there is no God and it all some how jsut came together is asserting that order can come from chaos (or no order at all). Things don't order themselves into nice neat, working, complex systems. Again with my illustration of box of alphabet cereal. You will never shake up it up pour it out and wind up with Othello. However "science" asserts this could happen and then calls people stupid for not believing it.

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Either God designs every snowflake or He is engaging in chaos theory.

 

Designing every living thing on Earth right down to the most redundant nucleotides must have kept him busy. No wonder the Universe sat here for 13 billion years before man showed up.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought one day....."you know, I think I will use the process of physics and natural selection in order to save a little time".

 

Or maybe since God is all powerful and able to do anything him designing that didn't take much time at all.

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Either God designs every snowflake or He is engaging in chaos theory.

 

Designing every living thing on Earth right down to the most redundant nucleotides must have kept him busy. No wonder the Universe sat here for 13 billion years before man showed up.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought one day....."you know, I think I will use the process of physics and natural selection in order to save a little time".

 

Or maybe since God is all powerful and able to do anything him designing that didn't take much time at all.

Time? Much time?

 

Why would it take any time at all? One day, one hour, one minute, one second. Now a real god would be able to do whatever needed to be done instantaneously. Only weak mythological gods need time to do things, or time to rest.

 

Making god weak enough to have to resort to labors extended over any period of time is insulting to gods everywhere.

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Who said God created order out of chaos? There you go again arguing points I didn't make. The whole premise of this post is based on arguments I didn't make. God spoke the universe into existance He didn't need to make anything with anything.

So what then is order if chaos doesn't exist and never existed? This universe is ordered, or so you claim. And God is ordered, right? And this universe didn't exist before it was created. So when and where did chaos ever exist? Never. So how can you say this universe is ordered? It's comparing apples with xyrthwogs. Order can only be understood in the context of understanding what chaos is. Since chaos doesn't exist and never existed, then this universe is not more or less ordered than anything else. Hence, it's not an argument to say that this universe is ordered and therefore God made it. The only time it would make sense is to say that God created order. But how can God create order if chaos doesn't exist?

 

Now to assert that there is no God and it all some how jsut came together is asserting that order can come from chaos (or no order at all).

Not at all, because you defining chaos and order as two completely separate things, but that's not how I see it. Chaos and order are just the magnitude of specific components of a complex system. When one part of the system goes into a seemingly disorganized state, another parts go into more ordered. And even when things look scrambled and chaotic, they never truly are. I believe chaos is just a highly complex order.

 

Things don't order themselves into nice neat, working, complex systems.

Not necessarily nice and neat, but they can into working and complex. Self-organizing systems do exist. Here's the Wiki article with plenty of examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

 

 

Again with my illustration of box of alphabet cereal. You will never shake up it up pour it out and wind up with Othello.

Actually, probabilistic speaking, yes you could. But you could get it on the first try, or not until the 5*10^800th try, which would require you to try for the whole life of this universe. But theoretically, you could. At least according to math. A chance of 1 in 1000 is not never. Neither is 1 in 10,000,000.

 

However "science" asserts this could happen and then calls people stupid for not believing it.

It's not stupid since it's math. And yes, you're stupid for not getting it.

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Either God designs every snowflake or He is engaging in chaos theory.

 

Designing every living thing on Earth right down to the most redundant nucleotides must have kept him busy. No wonder the Universe sat here for 13 billion years before man showed up.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought one day....."you know, I think I will use the process of physics and natural selection in order to save a little time".

 

Or maybe since God is all powerful and able to do anything him designing that didn't take much time at all.

Time? Much time?

 

Why would it take any time at all? One day, one hour, one minute, one second. Now a real god would be able to do whatever needed to be done instantaneously. Only weak mythological gods need time to do things, or time to rest.

 

Making god weak enough to have to resort to labors extended over any period of time is insulting to gods everywhere.

Why because thats how God chose to do it.

 

But since you don't believe in God how would you know what a real god would do? Is this your opinion on what God should have done?

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Who said God created order out of chaos? There you go again arguing points I didn't make. The whole premise of this post is based on arguments I didn't make. God spoke the universe into existance He didn't need to make anything with anything.

So what then is order if chaos doesn't exist and never existed? This universe is ordered, or so you claim. And God is ordered, right? And this universe didn't exist before it was created. So when and where did chaos ever exist? Never. So how can you say this universe is ordered? It's comparing apples with xyrthwogs. Order can only be understood in the context of understanding what chaos is. Since chaos doesn't exist and never existed, then this universe is not more or less ordered than anything else. Hence, it's not an argument to say that this universe is ordered and therefore God made it. The only time it would make sense is to say that God created order. But how can God create order if chaos doesn't exist?

 

Now to assert that there is no God and it all some how jsut came together is asserting that order can come from chaos (or no order at all).

Not at all, because you defining chaos and order as two completely separate things, but that's not how I see it. Chaos and order are just the magnitude of specific components of a complex system. When one part of the system goes into a seemingly disorganized state, another parts go into more ordered. And even when things look scrambled and chaotic, they never truly are. I believe chaos is just a highly complex order.

 

Things don't order themselves into nice neat, working, complex systems.

Not necessarily nice and neat, but they can into working and complex. Self-organizing systems do exist. Here's the Wiki article with plenty of examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

 

 

Again with my illustration of box of alphabet cereal. You will never shake up it up pour it out and wind up with Othello.

Actually, probabilistic speaking, yes you could. But you could get it on the first try, or not until the 5*10^800th try, which would require you to try for the whole life of this universe. But theoretically, you could. At least according to math. A chance of 1 in 1000 is not never. Neither is 1 in 10,000,000.

 

However "science" asserts this could happen and then calls people stupid for not believing it.

It's not stupid since it's math. And yes, you're stupid for not getting it.

 

1. Choas can simply be said as the absence of order. God didn't create sin but sin still exist. Why becuase its the absence of his will.

 

2. All these examples assume there is no God and therefore no outside guiding force.

 

3. Exactly and some how its scientific to believe this could happen and happen right the first time around with no guiding force. If evolution happened it would have been a miracle in which case that proves God's existance right there.

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1. Choas can simply be said as the absence of order. God didn't create sin but sin still exist. Why becuase its the absence of his will.

How can something be absent of God who is omnipresent? How can chaos come into being? When and where can chaos exist if everything that exists is order? Did Satan create his own universe outside of God's existence? Or did God create a chaotic universe for Satan to be in? Where is chaos? Where can it exist? Since you can't show me chaos, then I can't accept the argument that this world is ordered. This world is both order and chaos, simultaneous, in my view. In your view, it is only ordered and chaos exists somewhere in fantasy-land.

 

2. All these examples assume there is no God and therefore no outside guiding force.

So God is guiding the quarks? You sound like one of my brothers. He claims that Jesus is gravity.

 

3. Exactly and some how its scientific to believe this could happen and happen right the first time around with no guiding force. If evolution happened it would have been a miracle in which case that proves God's existance right there.

You still don't get probability.

 

To say that it either can be in the first try or the 10 millionth, it doesn't mean it MUST happen at the 10 millionth. It happened. So it proves that it happened. And you're an idiot for not understanding probability.

 

That it has a chance to happen, means that it can happen in the first try, or the second, or the third. Do you get that?

 

When you roll a dice, you have the chance of getting a six. If you roll it and get a one, do you say, "oh, that's obvious I got a one because it's impossible to get a six"?

 

And secondly, how can you be so certain that God did NOT use evolution to create life? After all, Genesis says that God commanded the oceans to bring forth life. He didn't create any life (except humans) in that story by direct hand-on creation, but he created all the life forms by commanding Nature to do it. So how can you be so extremely convinced that God didn't use Evolution for that process? You said it yourself, all the examples on the Wiki page are guided by God, and there are experiments in bio-chemistry which shows that proteins can form (by themselves), which would mean in your little world that God guided those proteins to form. So you are the one denying God's power over creation by putting him in a box.

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Come on, Defender, this idea of God waving a magic wand (or his hand) and everything springing into existence exactly as he envisioned it is kind of childish, don't you think ? The natural world isn't guided by a god every moment of the day, he doesn't design every snowflake, he does delegate the creation process according to various laws of biology and physics which we hopeless humans are even figuring out. (this is what I believed when I was a Christian, even...)

 

There's more proof of God's creation within these scientific processes and theories, than in ancient texts that describe magical processes.

 

Magic is for ancient peoples, living in superstitious times with little or no scientific revelation.

 

God gives us natural reality to examine for a reason. A very good reason. So eventually we will be able to make our lives better, quit burning witches (remember scripture is infallible) thinking that gay people actually "choose" and did you know that in Biblical times they believed that the male contributed all of the material to the making of a child ? It wasn't until (science) it was established in the 1800's that the female contributes as much DNA as the male.

 

I think that's important, don't you ?

 

Or you can live in your backward magical dreamworld if you wish.

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Either God designs every snowflake or He is engaging in chaos theory.

 

Designing every living thing on Earth right down to the most redundant nucleotides must have kept him busy. No wonder the Universe sat here for 13 billion years before man showed up.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought one day....."you know, I think I will use the process of physics and natural selection in order to save a little time".

 

 

What is just as amazing is that god finally, after billions of years, decided to reveal himself to a tiny group of viscious nomads in a remote part of the Middle East! Why would he have done that? I could think of far better people to choose for that revelation! Or, being so almighty, with one huge SHOUT, such an incredible power, one that created the whole Universe in a week, could have told everyone on planet Earth all at once. Would have saved an awful lot of runnning around for all those prophets and disciples!

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