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Goodbye Jesus

Book Challenge By Fundy Wife!


Centauro

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Dude, that sucks. Sounds like you feel trapped and disconnected...?... and I couldn't imagine being that way with my spouse. I'm sorry its going that way. I wish I had something encouraging to say but at them moment I don't have much. I do think its important to try and work things out as hard as it maybe especially if you have kids. I know it feels unfair like you're opinions are silenced and looked down on. Can you tell her its important to you for her to know where you are an why and that you need her to read the material asap?

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:screams:

 

Warning: Rant Mode ON..

 

I really unloaded this morning. I can hardly type right now I am so hyped right now.

 

We did not read last night. This rant has nothing to do with Ehrman or my reading the bible.

<snip>

Thanks for letting me rant.....I'm otta here for the day.

Wow. I can really, really sympathize, but my situation is not 100th as bad as yours. I had another wife, however, that drove me nuts, and I divorced her, but it was because she was constantly belittling me, not because of religion - but the "walking on eggshells" part hit home for both marriages.

 

My present wife now takes meds for bipolar disorder, and things improved dramatically. She still pokes me from time to time with religious stuff, but she's not trying to open my mouth and aim for the stomach.

 

I just let the religious stuff slide - it's not that much; just the occasional emails (and her computer is right next to mine...).

 

When this stuff boils to the top something's got to give, and I suspect it won't be her.

 

I'd give advice, but it would sound so patronizing or superficial that it would be laughable. I wish you the best.

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Hope you have (had) a fun day, Centauro.

 

Is your wife at all open to marriage counseling? Of course, you'd have to find a Christian counselor who would not automatically reach for the divorce lever . . .

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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

 

What a bastard that Jesus guy was. Fucking homewrecker.

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Verses like that have me pretty convinced that Jesus, if he existed, was a dangerous cult leader and not a humble philosopher.

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Wow, Centauro, I certainly hope that things get better. There's a little bit of a struggle for me having a religious wife, but she's not at all like your wife, so I can't imagine the hell you're going through. All I can say is good luck.

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Quick update:

 

Feel better today, had a nice day on my own yesterday.

 

Talked with wife calmly last night. No real progress. We won't be doing any readings anymore, as she basically said

Ehrman is full of crap and has an agenda. Whatever....

I am wasting my time thinking she can be open to information other than the christian "party line."

She was reading Ehrman just to find fault with his data...thats all.

 

I vow never to discuss spiritual issues with her again, never. She is bordering on being psychotic about those things.

 

Thanks all for the well wishes...this thread is basically over.

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Ah, that ever-present fallback defense. If you don't like the information and you can't refute it then just claim the person presenting it has an agenda. Poof! Like magic all of your problems are solved!

 

At the very least, I'm glad things are calmer for you today.

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Quick update:

 

Feel better today, had a nice day on my own yesterday.

 

Talked with wife calmly last night. No real progress. We won't be doing any readings anymore, as she basically said

Ehrman is full of crap and has an agenda. Whatever....

I am wasting my time thinking she can be open to information other than the christian "party line."

She was reading Ehrman just to find fault with his data...thats all.

 

I vow never to discuss spiritual issues with her again, never. She is bordering on being psychotic about those things.

 

Thanks all for the well wishes...this thread is basically over.

 

 

If he is full of crap then why is she worried about reading him? I think it was totally hitting a nerve in her belief system and she is scared so she is running from it.

 

Sorry but I have no respect for people who can't even read another persons opinion.

 

Good luck, sounds like you're gonna need it.

 

 

 

By the way everyone has an agenda. That was my pastors refute to Eherman as well, he didn't refute one thing he said he just said, I think he has an agenda. Well so does Lee Strobel, NT Wright. Take the time and find out what the agenda is and how it is effecting the facts they are giving.

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"Talked with wife calmly last night. No real progress. We won't be doing any readings anymore, as she basically said Ehrman is full of crap and has an agenda. Whatever...."

 

Sorry to hear things went that way, it sounded promising. I hope things work out for you for the best, whether you talk about those things or not.

 

In my marriage I regularly had to get back to, "What specifically do you disagree with?" in response to statements like that. Usually the answer was nothing, which is fine, then we don't talk about it emotionally or we talk about the specifics. Win/win either way I think.

 

"I vow never to discuss spiritual issues with her again, never. She is bordering on being psychotic about those things."

 

I emailed a similar statement to my wife last year, it hurts. Eventually we both decided it wasn't what either of us wanted, but it is still difficult to work though.

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Wise decision to not pressure her. I've learned you can't force someone to see through their beliefs regardless of whether they are religious or political.

 

You never know; she might become curious, and that was the first step for many of us.

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Rabble......Yeah, when she said agenda, I knew there was no more dialog, she had made a decision not to be objective.

 

Monkeygirl...I believe you are right...she is running from it.

 

atimetorend.....I did get specific when reading Ehrman with her and it was distressing for her. She was agitated and I remained calm and kept her on the specific subject/verse Ehrman was dissecting. This is where she became vague and spoke in generalized terms and asked to take a break. In fact, since Ehrman started getting very specific in his third chapter, she had not asked to read anymore. It did strike a nerve, and she is protecting her faith. She would still like to sit down and "talk", but that doesn't mean a dialog. It always turns into a monologue from her about the evidence in the bible, and where I am wrong. Never again..

 

Shyone.....No pressure here, she can't even stand a discussion. She has never been academic in the sense she would want to take a course at university or read anything heavy or introspective. Mostly fluff, christian feel good stuff. What she considers heavy reading would be the leading apologetics!

We both have changed over the years. Early in our marriage I wasn't much of a reader, or interested in learning new skills/self improvement. 25 years ago I started reading a lot, taught myself skills I was never good at, ie auto mechanics, computers, carpentry and household repair. I also started reading some philosophy, history and some great biographies. The internet opened up a whole new world of learning for me. She has no interest in any of those things.

She uses the computer for networking with her christian friends and thats about it. We are in two different worlds with regards to gaining knowledge. Once she even said to me that the only knowledge she needs was in the bible. I was flabbergasted, as she was totally serious.

 

So, this is my world my friends. Outside of her fundamentalism, she is a kind and generous person. Problem is her fundamentalism is her life. I have to concentrate on the good in my life and live with the rest.

 

Thanks again for all your support here. I am sure I will check in occasionally and keep in touch, take care.

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It sounds so lonely, Centauro.

 

Are there some other points of connection that keep the two of you together?

 

It is. But what has made it tolerable is that I understand the psychological process used by fundamentalists called "splitting".

 

When they are born again, they not only split emotionally and mentally from their past personality, they remove themselves from others who are not like them. Hence, you see them immerse themselves into their church world disassociating themselves from people "of the world" (of the devil)

 

For me to tolerate this I have to understand that this is an emotional illness (IMHO), maybe even a clinical mental illness depending on how far it is taken and how it affects relationships. My wife's conversion was under dire circumstances, untimely death in the family years ago and I believe (and have professionals agree with me) that she had/has a post traumatic stress issue that she has resolved with her fundamentalism.

It is my understanding of this as a sickness that allows me to stay the course in our marriage. We do have many things in common that we enjoy. The problem I have is religion is interjected in many of these things and it is always a sore reminder of how her conversion has negatively affected our relationship. I struggle with it on a daily basis.

But I am a tough bastard and can take it, if I keep reminding myself it borders on a mental illness and for better or worse, this is a coping mechanism that she needs. That said, I have to set boundaries so it doesn't adversely affect me or my children. That is where it becomes difficult.

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I don't know how you do it. I couldn't deal with xian music and sentiment 24/7. Part time would be too much. Maybe I'm too intolerant but I hate that shit. Of all the problems my wife and I have had over the years I take a great deal of comfort from the fact that we can agree on philosophical issues, have interesting discussions about them and really be open an honest about what we think about things. Without that we wouldn't have made it this far. If she were like your wife I might still love her but I'd probably have a difficult time liking her. I'm not saying you have to see things my way. Everyone knows their own limits.

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Hold on to the possibility that you may have cracked her fundy armor enough to let a bit of light through. If Ehrman was making her uncomfortable, that's a good thing. Funny thing about the human brain: once information gets in, it stays. Her subconscious will continue processing Ehrman even if her conscious mind tries to shut the information out.

 

In other words, don't give up all hope of here changing. It may take a lot of time, but the possibility still exists. You cannot un-know new information, no matter how hard you try.

 

Hang in there, and feel free to drop by and vent if you need to.

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It sounds so lonely, Centauro.

 

Are there some other points of connection that keep the two of you together?

 

It is. But what has made it tolerable is that I understand the psychological process used by fundamentalists called "splitting".

 

When they are born again, they not only split emotionally and mentally from their past personality, they remove themselves from others who are not like them. Hence, you see them immerse themselves into their church world disassociating themselves from people "of the world" (of the devil)

 

For me to tolerate this I have to understand that this is an emotional illness (IMHO), maybe even a clinical mental illness depending on how far it is taken and how it affects relationships. My wife's conversion was under dire circumstances, untimely death in the family years ago and I believe (and have professionals agree with me) that she had/has a post traumatic stress issue that she has resolved with her fundamentalism.

It is my understanding of this as a sickness that allows me to stay the course in our marriage. We do have many things in common that we enjoy. The problem I have is religion is interjected in many of these things and it is always a sore reminder of how her conversion has negatively affected our relationship. I struggle with it on a daily basis.

But I am a tough bastard and can take it, if I keep reminding myself it borders on a mental illness and for better or worse, this is a coping mechanism that she needs. That said, I have to set boundaries so it doesn't adversely affect me or my children. That is where it becomes difficult.

 

 

Kinda sounds like my mom. She wasn't living a "christian lifestyle" and said "shit" sometimes when she was 15 years old and her dad suddenly died,on his death bed he told her to get saved. Every since then she has been an extremely deluded fundmentalist church of god christian who thinks she is above anyone who doesn't believe just like her.

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maybe you can watch lots of science documentaries about the big bang and evolution, she will inevitable hear some of it, the evidence will stick with her, she'll call it crazy but like someone else said, it stays with you.

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She was reading Ehrman just to find fault with his data...thats all.

 

This sounds kinda like me when I was a Christian, although I didn't read books and articles from atheists. When I would come across something somewhere that opposed Christianity, though, I would write it off as anti-Christian propaganda. As a committed believer who just "knew" that the Bible was true, I had serious difficulty thinking outside the box.

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I don't know how you do it. I couldn't deal with xian music and sentiment 24/7. Part time would be too much. Maybe I'm too intolerant but I hate that shit. Of all the problems my wife and I have had over the years I take a great deal of comfort from the fact that we can agree on philosophical issues, have interesting discussions about them and really be open an honest about what we think about things. Without that we wouldn't have made it this far. If she were like your wife I might still love her but I'd probably have a difficult time liking her. I'm not saying you have to see things my way. Everyone knows their own limits.

 

I have been "doing it" for 20 years. :Medal: My salvation is motorcycles (long distant riding) and my wonderful children, who are not fundies. They are critical thinkers!!

Vodka helps a little too :party:

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But I am a tough bastard and can take it, if I keep reminding myself it borders on a mental illness and for better or worse, this is a coping mechanism that she needs. That said, I have to set boundaries so it doesn't adversely affect me or my children. That is where it becomes difficult.

 

If your wife has a form of PTSD, and her religious obsession is the mechanism by which she keeps the unresolved trauma contained, it does explain how emotionally reactive she is to anything that threatens the levee. Religion may be an effective avoidance mechanism, like drugs, alcohol, perfectionist efforts to control things, workaholism, etc., but it doesn't cure or resolve the underlying problem. Like most avoidance mechanisms, it creates more problems.

 

You sound like a loving person with many strengths, including understanding, patience, tolerance, endurance, responsibility and loyalty.

 

I'm guessing that, despite your efforts, the problem is already adversely affecting you and your kids (and your wife, for that matter). Setting boundaries is way better than not setting boundaries, and it may reduce the negative impact for you and your kids, but it still sounds like the cost of maintaining the levee is too high. For one thing, you don't have a grown-up, fully present marriage partner with whom to share your true self and your journey in life. Instead, you're in a care-taking role. You have to tamp down annoyance and suppress yourself in an intellectually and emotionally oppressive environment. How can the kids not be subtly affected by the strain and the mixed messages?

 

Maybe you could find a therapist with whom to discuss the possibility of setting radically more fair boundaries (where she must accommodate you and your beliefs equally and fairly, even if that makes her uncomfortable).

 

Another thing you could work on with a therapist would be considering a tough love demand that she deal with the trauma as a condition of marriage. PTSD responds to therapy, and the therapy consists of ending the dysfunctional avoidance by talking in detail about the trauma, with full emotional engagement, over and over, until the person can settle down with the sad, horrible, messed up truth of whatever happened. (There's nothing about the evidenced-based psychotherapeutic treatment for PTSD that goes against or is incompatible with her religion.)

 

That way, instead of pointing out the cracks in the levee, you would be helping to drain some of the flood waters, and then maybe she wouldn't be so freaked out when she notices the cracks on her own.

 

Well, easier said than done, of course...Good luck to you.

 

Most avoidance mechanism do fail, I agree. Religion, my wife's fundamentalism, can be one mechanism that could easily succeed and does succeed for many throughout their lives if they avoid the knowledge and introspective thinking that will allow them to question their faith; or at the very least see their faith from another perspective. It succeeds also because it is so pervasive in our society, and seems to be a human trait that is hard to suppress. That is just my opinion..

 

I saw a therapist for 5 years, and he helped me a lot in terms of dealing with my wife's extreme behavior years ago. Towards the end of our discussions, he told me he was once a fundamentalist, in fact a youth minister. I was very surprised, but in retrospect it made sense as he had a great insight into the fundy world. I owe him a lot, he probably saved my marriage.

We did go to a christian psychologist for awhile and he was helpful. He was a professional and did not take the "christian" side when we aired out differences. In fact, he pissed my wife off on numerous occasions because he agreed with me most of the time! He was more a live and let live kind of guy, even though he was supposedly an evangelical fundy. He supported the boundaries I was setting with regard to what my wife was expecting of me religiously. I think that is why she lost interest in seeing him more on a regular basis.

 

I have suggested she go see a therapist, but she refuses. Mental health, in her eyes, can come from the bible. Psychotherapy borders on dealing the the devil, as she is suspect of these kinds of professionals unless they are born again.

 

I wish I could "drain the levee", or at least help her drain it. Time will tell. For now, I will take care of myself, be a good father, husband, and human being, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Thanks for your kind words..

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So going back to exchanges with a spouse over religion. Its not a question of a logical debate. That would be a waste of time. It is one of setting one's spouse at ease with the absence of fundamentalism so that the logical brain can exert more control. We have to help them replace each fear with calm.

 

Sorry for your trouble.

 

You were invited to a ring match and brought swords and damn... she brought light sabres.

 

You're losing the debate and you are losing because it is a debate and hinged on logic.

 

Logic is your best hand but it is an ineffective medicine.

 

Listen... life requires us to try something and fail until we learn what succeeds.

 

Maybe you need some time to lick your wounds and regroup.

 

Once again... I suggest you try to get you and your wife to volunteer time at a food bank where you will meet good hearted people who are not fundamentalists. This is not simple minded advice and it employs several strategies. They however, are not based on the idea that your wife will suddenly abandon her religion as soon as she understands how smart we are and how dumb they are. It doesn't and never will work that way - not that athiests have trouble with that concept. Nah! Nobody here at XC has trouble with that! Nope!

 

And oh... think long term. You merely lost a battle.

 

Mongo

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So going back to exchanges with a spouse over religion. Its not a question of a logical debate. That would be a waste of time. It is one of setting one's spouse at ease with the absence of fundamentalism so that the logical brain can exert more control. We have to help them replace each fear with calm.

 

Sorry for your trouble.

 

You were invited to a ring match and brought swords and damn... she brought light sabres.

 

You're losing the debate and you are losing because it is a debate and hinged on logic.

 

Logic is your best hand but it is an ineffective medicine.

 

Listen... life requires us to try something and fail until we learn what succeeds.

 

Maybe you need some time to lick your wounds and regroup.

 

Once again... I suggest you try to get you and your wife to volunteer time at a food bank where you will meet good hearted people who are not fundamentalists. This is not simple minded advice and it employs several strategies. They however, are not based on the idea that your wife will suddenly abandon her religion as soon as she understands how smart we are and how dumb they are. It doesn't and never will work that way - not that athiests have trouble with that concept. Nah! Nobody here at XC has trouble with that! Nope!

 

And oh... think long term. You merely lost a battle.

 

Mongo

 

That is for damn sure! Christianity didn't add up perfectly for me for several years. I had doubts and questions but I pushed through them (unlike any other area in my life, when things didn't add up i normally tossed it aside but not religion). It wasn't until reality slapped me in the face and made it clear that my beliefs system was comopletley and utterly flawed and that keeping it would do damage to me down the road, thats what lead me to actual listen to the voice of reason in the area of religion.

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Mongo......that is good advice and I will certainly keep it in mind. And you are right, I did lose the battle, but I didn't lose the war. Good perspective.

 

I am regrouping, and in doing so have been setting more boundaries, not only with her but with her fundy friends. In fact, one fundy couple we know has invited us to a couples BIBLE STUDY :eek: . Initially I was put off, but the more I thought about it the more I saw it as an opportunity to let them know who I am and interject my point of view on scripture.

Most who know me in my wife's church are, at best, in the dark about where I am regarding fundamentalism. The others that don't know me, but know who I am, assume I am a fundy.

There will be 5 or so couples, I don't know half of them, so this should be interesting.

I will not be confrontational, but will present myself much like Ehrman, basically stating probabilities and the reasons I cannot be an inerrant literalist. It may make some a bit uncomfortable, and it may cause my wife to get upset...so be it. This is one of the boundaries I have set for myself. I will not let anyone speak for me or sit silent if I have a difference of opinion when in a discussion forum, ie bible study.

 

I will need help from others here on the forum whom are more biblically versed than I.

So the call is out. I am gearing up for the next battle, a covert one :wicked: .

 

I am sure this will provide an unlimited amount of material for me to post on...this should be fun..

 

Centauro

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I will not let anyone speak for me or sit silent if I have a difference of opinion when in a discussion forum, ie bible study.

 

Great job Centauro, I find that the hardest part. I always feel like I would be out of line speaking up, so I just interject questions or comments to make people think, but without revealing what I really think. Or just remain silent. Your choice is better, hope it goes well.

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