Neon Genesis Posted August 7, 2009 Author Share Posted August 7, 2009 I actually think the evangelist is lying through his teeth about the story of the little girl converting her family. That story has been told in a million different variations since I was a kid! Christianity thrives on lies that favor its religion. It certainly wouldn't surprise me given the lack of details on how she converted her mother and their track record on lying about everything else. It still pisses me off that they're using kids to manipulate people's emotions even if the story isn't true. Why was God so uninteresting in this? Didn't he want people to be saved? And I kept on believing anyway. It's so weird looking back at it. I was such a fool.Of course it must be because God gave us our free will to choose whether or not we accept his free gift! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Why was God so uninteresting in this? Didn't he want people to be saved? And I kept on believing anyway. It's so weird looking back at it. I was such a fool.Of course it must be because God gave us our free will to choose whether or not we accept his free gift! But at the same time, God would know who would convert, and be able to lead me there. I was willing. I tried to listen. I asked for it. But I guess the Devil kept on leading me to those who wouldn't convert. Which means the Devil also have prescience and would know who will convert or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenhunter Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Later this month, my parents' church will be starting this door to door evangelizing campaign for our city and tonight, they had a guest speaker who's helping organizing the missionary work to speak about how to evangelize the gospel. According to the guest speaker, if you start the conversation off by saying "What would you do if Jesus came right now?" supposedly you'll be able to control the conversation. They even have a planned script you're supposed to memorize to use as your sales pitch. If your target starts to go off-topic from your planned script, you're apparently not supposed to answer any of their questions, but just move onto the next question and keep the discussion on your planned script. You're also supposed to ask all sorts of obnoxious questions about the private life of this total stranger you've just met and about what their religious experience is like. The guest speaker talked about how one time when they were in another town, they managed to convert a little girl to Christianity and then the little girl was able to convert her mother to Christianity. The guest speaker used this to guilt trip the members by saying if a little girl can convert someone to Christianity, why can't adults do the same? I found it sickening and it has to be some sort of mental abuse for them to manipulate an innocent kid with religious beliefs they're too young to understand and then to manipulate the girl with guilt to spread their horrid propaganda. It also says a lot about their religion that the only way for them to win converts is to target innocent kids instead of adults and I found their whole strategy to be deceptive and intellectually dishonest that they have to have a planned script and have to control the conversation in order to get you in their trap. Which is funny since I didn't deconvert to atheism because of anyone's planned script or controlled conversation, I did it all on my own but they have to brainwash people to win converts. I also thought it was interesting that the preacher said that the Church Of Christ has been losing members and been on a downward spiral but the guest speaker started ranting about all these false Christians in the bible belt who believe in "false" doctrines and how even other COC congregations are becoming corrupted by heresies. ha, first of all like everyone else here, i heard of that script, and the biggest problem i had as a "christian" at the time is this: it does not work what drives me crazy, is that those "missionary" people don't even go out and try any of the bullshit practices, nor do they adhere by them. the best and most effective way of getting "non-christians" to go to church is to bribe them, and i mean really use the power of manipulation and bribery to get them to go, i told my friends who were "sinners" that if we go to church and after we go, we'll do this thing we've been wanting to do after church. it worked. honestly, i feel really sorry for doing that to those who are now deluded suckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The OP mentions stuff that's taken straight out of "Evangelism Explosion." For those of you who have never read that thing, please do so and prepare to be sickened. It's utterly cynical, and nothing more than a SALES pitch. It treats prospective victims as customers, and the "witnessing Christian" is the "salesman" -- the book tells the salesman how to sell the product to the customer. It's one of the most cold-blooded, calculating primers on manipulation ever published. It used to be "big" here in the South among Baptists and other fundies, but a lot of them have reverted to (or embraced) the Calvinist anti-evangelism perspective implied by the doctrines of election / predestination and "irresistible grace". The reason this has become so popular, I think, is that it appeals to human laziness while at the same time giving them a handy excuse as to why the Evangelism Explosion failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Don't you just love the arrogance of CoC Christians? They truly believe that the ONLY outcome for a TRULY honest person confronted with the bible is that the person will agree completely with them. Since they have the Truthtm and God makes it so that any person who seeks Truthtm will find it. It's not just the Church of Christ. The Baptists I know personally believe and teach exactly the same thing -- that the only outcome if a person is being honest, is to totally agree with them, and that if anybody really is sincere about seeking truth, their search is going to lead them directly to the Baptists -- not just ANY Baptist church, but to the specific Baptist church which teaches exactly the way these Baptists believe. In open discussions I've heard various of them say that Catholics aren't "real" Christians, other Baptist churches aren't "real" Christians, etc. They are the only "real" Christians -- they are the only ones who have interpreted the Bible "correctly" and therefore theirs is the "one true church". In one of the posts in this thread, somebody mentioned about feeling guilty -- me too, and also very stupid, because I used to believe basically the same way these people do. Looking back on it now, all these years later, I just have this mixture of awful feelings of guilt and shame and embarrassment. And perpexity! How could I, who consider myself a not-completely-brainless person, how could I have fallen for that scam? How could I have believed and joined and participated in that scam? It's baffling, and I've never known what to do, to be free from guilt -- guilt for having been born, then guilt for being a sinner, followed by years of guilt for being an imperfect Christian, now guilt for my past beliefs and behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The OP mentions stuff that's taken straight out of "Evangelism Explosion." For those of you who have never read that thing, please do so and prepare to be sickened. It's utterly cynical, and nothing more than a SALES pitch. It treats prospective victims as customers, and the "witnessing Christian" is the "salesman" -- the book tells the salesman how to sell the product to the customer. It's one of the most cold-blooded, calculating primers on manipulation ever published. That's what finally convinced me Christianity was no different than corporations, political groups, or other uber-control institutions. The prime directive is to eternally expand and dominate. These people aren't "new creatures", they're the same predators that roam the materialistic world they claim to be elevated above. Like a corpoartion, they want to maximize sales and expand their territory. It has nothing to do with "truth" or God. It has everything to do with vanity because when they praise their ideas about the object of their worship, they are praising themselves while wearing a Godly cloak of false humility. It's phony and rancid, and once I saw this form of predatory and egotistical behavior for what it was, I didn't want any part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Don't you just love the arrogance of CoC Christians? They truly believe that the ONLY outcome for a TRULY honest person confronted with the bible is that the person will agree completely with them. Since they have the Truthtm and God makes it so that any person who seeks Truthtm will find it. It's not just the Church of Christ. The Baptists I know personally believe and teach exactly the same thing -- that the only outcome if a person is being honest, is to totally agree with them, and that if anybody really is sincere about seeking truth, their search is going to lead them directly to the Baptists -- not just ANY Baptist church, but to the specific Baptist church which teaches exactly the way these Baptists believe. It's not just the COC and Baptists, either, nor even just among the religious. A lot of people who are firm in their beliefs act as though anyone who is honest would see it their way, but it's not always a cut & dry, honesty vs dishonesty matter. In one of the posts in this thread, somebody mentioned about feeling guilty -- me too, and also very stupid, because I used to believe basically the same way these people do. Looking back on it now, all these years later, I just have this mixture of awful feelings of guilt and shame and embarrassment. And perpexity! How could I, who consider myself a not-completely-brainless person, how could I have fallen for that scam? How could I have believed and joined and participated in that scam? It's baffling, and I've never known what to do, to be free from guilt -- guilt for having been born, then guilt for being a sinner, followed by years of guilt for being an imperfect Christian, now guilt for my past beliefs and behaviors. Similar case here. On the one hand, it's easy to mock Christianity and the Bible for all the stupid nonsense, and it's easy to wonder why others don't see how full of BS it is. But then I remember that I followed that shit myself until I was 29, at which age I finally began to question it for the first time. It's hard to understand how I was so brainwashed for so long, but back then I thought that those who didn't believe the Bible were the ones who were brainwashed. I was only swallowing what had been crammed down my throat all my life, never hearing opposing views except through the filter of the church. Even though I did well in school and was a fairly rational person, the Christian worldview was so ingrained in me that I just couldn't see through it for the longest time. And now I feel guilty and stupid for having not been able to see through it, but at least I did eventually see through it. As much as it had been pounded into me all my life, it's almost "miraculous" that I did finally see the light, and I am saddened at how sooooo many people never see through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 On the one hand, it's easy to mock Christianity and the Bible for all the stupid nonsense, and it's easy to wonder why others don't see how full of BS it is. But then I remember that I followed that shit myself until I was 29, at which age I finally began to question it for the first time. It's hard to understand how I was so brainwashed for so long, but back then I thought that those who didn't believe the Bible were the ones who were brainwashed. I was only swallowing what had been crammed down my throat all my life, never hearing opposing views except through the filter of the church. I can understand why most Christians still believe in the bible as it seems like most never read the bible past the popular stories everyone is familiar with but the fundies at my parents' congregation have read through the entire bible as apart of this read the bible in 90 day program thing and as far as I'm aware, everyone still believes the bible is the inerrant word of God. I just don't see how someone can read through all the stories of God murdering babies and commanding the raping of virgins and still be a Christian. Granted I was already doubting at the time, but reading these horrible stories helped open my eyes to the barbarism of biblical literalism. I've even brought up these issues with the fundies during bible class and debated with them over it and yet they still cling to their delusions. I'm starting to think they're long gone and there's no hope for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I just don't see how someone can read through all the stories of God murdering babies and commanding the raping of virgins and still be a Christian. Granted I was already doubting at the time, but reading these horrible stories helped open my eyes to the barbarism of biblical literalism. I've even brought up these issues with the fundies during bible class and debated with them over it and yet they still cling to their delusions. I'm starting to think they're long gone and there's no hope for them. 1. Free Will. 2. Because "God works in mysterious ways", and plus we are all hopelessly evil corrupt sinners who deserve all the punishment they get -- either in this world and/or the next. 3. God has the perfect right to do whatever he wants to his creation. You simply cannot argue with these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenhunter Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I just don't see how someone can read through all the stories of God murdering babies and commanding the raping of virgins and still be a Christian. Granted I was already doubting at the time, but reading these horrible stories helped open my eyes to the barbarism of biblical literalism. I've even brought up these issues with the fundies during bible class and debated with them over it and yet they still cling to their delusions. I'm starting to think they're long gone and there's no hope for them. 1. Free Will. 2. Because "God works in mysterious ways", and plus we are all hopelessly evil corrupt sinners who deserve all the punishment they get -- either in this world and/or the next. 3. God has the perfect right to do whatever he wants to his creation. You simply cannot argue with these people. completely agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 This guest speaker was back again this week. This week he started ranting about the evils of American society and how America is getting worse and how Christianity has been going on a downward spiral for the past 50 years. The guest speaker gave his full support for the outrageous behavior of the recent town hall meetings but according to him, Jesus even gave death threats to the Jews. He also claimed that only they understood what Jesus' true identity is and claimed the Jews didn't understand their own scriptures because xtians know Judaism better than Jews do. Oh, but when he uses Jesus giving death threats as an example of how xtians should act, he's not trying to convert you through guilt, it's by the grace of God. But he completely contradicts himself since last week he blamed the fire and brimstone COCs as being responsible for the decline of COC members yet gives his support of Jesus giving death threats to Jews. He also blames all the problems of our economy on the lack of accepting Jesus and that all our problems will be solved if we just convert to xtianity because Jesus is more important than education and health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 On the one hand, it's easy to mock Christianity and the Bible for all the stupid nonsense, and it's easy to wonder why others don't see how full of BS it is. But then I remember that I followed that shit myself until I was 29, at which age I finally began to question it for the first time. It's hard to understand how I was so brainwashed for so long, but back then I thought that those who didn't believe the Bible were the ones who were brainwashed. I was only swallowing what had been crammed down my throat all my life, never hearing opposing views except through the filter of the church. I can understand why most Christians still believe in the bible as it seems like most never read the bible past the popular stories everyone is familiar with but the fundies at my parents' congregation have read through the entire bible as apart of this read the bible in 90 day program thing and as far as I'm aware, everyone still believes the bible is the inerrant word of God. I just don't see how someone can read through all the stories of God murdering babies and commanding the raping of virgins and still be a Christian. Granted I was already doubting at the time, but reading these horrible stories helped open my eyes to the barbarism of biblical literalism. I've even brought up these issues with the fundies during bible class and debated with them over it and yet they still cling to their delusions. I'm starting to think they're long gone and there's no hope for them. I was always involved in churches that urged Bible reading, and I myself had read the entire Bible a few times and memorized hundreds of verses before I ever began to question it. I guess I had just been so indoctrinated with Christian rationalization that, when it came to things that didn't seem quite right, I didn't think it was my right to question God. Now, of course, I realize that it didn't come from any deity at all and that Bible-God is no more real than the Tooth Fairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyBaby Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Hi, I've been lurking around this site for awhile now, but haven't posted until now. I grew up in a fundamentalist home and church, followed by Bible College, Christian graduate school and missions work. At this point I haven't been a part of a church for about 8 years, but I'm still working on what I believe now. (Long story, I'll say more in an extimony). I, too, was always uncomfortable with "cold calls" -- umm, I mean door-to-door evangelism. I thought that as Christians our first two jobs, as defined by Jesus, were to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. We were also supposed to speak the truth in love. Even if everything we believed was absolutely true, how could we justify having no other interest in a person than just to get them converted and attending our church? I guess I was just a bad evangelist, too. After getting my degrees, I moved more in a charismatic direction (Vineyard). The emphasis on following the leading of the Holy Spirit and inner healing, etc. was more appealing to me. However, I found some of the same attitudes there. Interest in a person ended when it was established that they weren't going to convert or at least go to our church / small group / special meeting. One of the reasons my faith deteriorated was the observation that whatever love Christians had was no better or different than the love people of other beliefs/unbeliefs had. Evangelism for many is really just a sales job. What is advertised is love, meaning and truth -- but what people end up buying is doctrine, church "family" and church activities. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 The OP mentions stuff that's taken straight out of "Evangelism Explosion." For those of you who have never read that thing, please do so and prepare to be sickened. It's utterly cynical, and nothing more than a SALES pitch. It treats prospective victims as customers, and the "witnessing Christian" is the "salesman" -- the book tells the salesman how to sell the product to the customer. It's one of the most cold-blooded, calculating primers on manipulation ever published. It used to be "big" here in the South among Baptists and other fundies, but a lot of them have reverted to (or embraced) the Calvinist anti-evangelism perspective implied by the doctrines of election / predestination and "irresistible grace". The reason this has become so popular, I think, is that it appeals to human laziness while at the same time giving them a handy excuse as to why the Evangelism Explosion failed. If you look closely you can see that in a few places they forgot to change "vacuum cleaner" to "Jesus" in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qec Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 When I was a christian and a youth, we used to have a christian camp. During the camp, there was an activity which we must do. We must go out the street to drag people to our camp. We will grab people from the shopping mall, train station and just about everywhere in Singapore. We will entice them to come to our camp with free food and free party. When they come to our camp, we will preach to them after they had their dinner. I remember more than 100 youths give their lives to Jesus during that camp. My pastor was so excited, saying that it was proof of the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people. My group did this once to a Japanese exchange student. She was still learning English and I could tell she didn't understand where the group wanted to take her, and was trying to get them not to do it, since we'd never see her again. But the fervent ones decided that she must be presented with the gospel - in a town an hour's drive away in the dark by a group of fanatics doing interpretive dances and preaching for 3 hours. When we got back she literally jumped out and ran from the car. Even then I knew that my friends were being rude, insensitive, and scaring the poor girl in ways she will never forget. In a way, American "Christians" are actually "Satanists". They are evil and rotten to the core through and through.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 The COC just now has its own door to door personal evangelistic course? Back in the early 90's I took CWT (Continuous Witness Training) TWICE. Once as a participant and the second time as a group leader. We had these big heavy ring binders, scripture memory cards and list of contacts to go out and evangelize. A lot of other denominations and independent churches used D. James Kennedy's "Evangelism Explosion" around that time too. Imagine three or four Southern Baptists asking to come in your house and "share" their personal experience with Christ with you! What balls I had in the 90's! We would soften the contact up with small talk about Family, Interests, Work and , oh, where do you go to church when you attend?" Then, the big confrontational question, "Suppose you were standing before God RIGHT NOW and he asked you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" What would you say? <pause for answer - - get ready to blast all their replies!> I feel so guilty when I think about those days! Reply: Why the fuck should I want to be let into your heaven? Now I hope I get a chance to answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I took classes, went to Bible school, and I witnessed a lot in the cities and knocked on doors, and the only thing I wanted for many years was to find one who I could lead to Christ... I even prayed to God for it, for years... but it never happened. I'm glad now that it didn't, so I don't have to feel guilty about it, but I find this lack of "miracle" as yet another evidence that God doesn't care or doesn't exist. Hell, I used to stand on Water Street (collage bar district) preach and buttonhole drunk horny children. Boy that was a trip. To bad I disbelieved in acid in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Don't you just love the arrogance of CoC Christians? They truly believe that the ONLY outcome for a TRULY honest person confronted with the bible is that the person will agree completely with them. Since they have the Truthtm and God makes it so that any person who seeks Truthtm will find it. I'm so glad I finally found some truth after so many years. Too bad that means my family and old friends are not allowed to see me as an intellectually honest person anymore. Hey don't knock it. If you were CoC like me, that makes you a TrueApostate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbleRabble Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Don't you just love the arrogance of CoC Christians? They truly believe that the ONLY outcome for a TRULY honest person confronted with the bible is that the person will agree completely with them. Since they have the Truthtm and God makes it so that any person who seeks Truthtm will find it. I'm so glad I finally found some truth after so many years. Too bad that means my family and old friends are not allowed to see me as an intellectually honest person anymore. Hey don't knock it. If you were CoC like me, that makes you a TrueApostate Awesome! Is there an official club? Do I get a membership card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 "What would you do if Jesus came right now?" Well, that depends. Was it before or after I came??? Is it just me or are would anyone else have a difficult time stifling hysterical laughter if they were asked this question? I must be an absolute perv, but the visual is nasty. I was raised in the CoC and somewhere around 1995-1996 we had a door knocking campaign. I was totally embarrassed by it (and more embarrassed today) but I did actually go out with a group a couple of times. Even then people did not want strangers knocking on their door for any reason. I would think it would be even less acceptable today. What an extraordinary waste of time and energy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 "What would you do if Jesus came right now?" Well, that depends. Was it before or after I came??? Is it just me or are would anyone else have a difficult time stifling hysterical laughter if they were asked this question? I must be an absolute perv, but the visual is nasty. I was raised in the CoC and somewhere around 1995-1996 we had a door knocking campaign. I was totally embarrassed by it (and more embarrassed today) but I did actually go out with a group a couple of times. Even then people did not want strangers knocking on their door for any reason. I would think it would be even less acceptable today. What an extraordinary waste of time and energy! As perverted as my mind is, I honestly would not first think of that. But whose saying that Jesus hasn't already come back? We are constantly hearing gurus claiming to be Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 The church is supposed to start their door to door evangelizing this Sunday and my dad is going with them on it. Is it just me or is it really creepy that they pray around the house they're about to go evangelize? I just imagine xtians wearing cult robes while chanting a spell or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Is it just me or is it really creepy that they pray around the house they're about to go evangelize? I can see how one could feel that way about it, but since their prayers are just superstitious nonsense, to me it would be more annoying than creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glebealyth Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I took classes, went to Bible school, and I witnessed a lot in the cities and knocked on doors, and the only thing I wanted for many years was to find one who I could lead to Christ... I even prayed to God for it, for years... but it never happened. I'm glad now that it didn't, so I don't have to feel guilty about it, but I find this lack of "miracle" as yet another evidence that God doesn't care or doesn't exist. HanSolo, I really do wish I could bask in your guiltlessness. I have the shame of having led many people to "salvation through christ". I do so wish that I could find them all and apologize to each of them, personally. I know I can't change the past, but this is one thing I really wish I could feel better about. If anybody reading this has vengeful thoughts about those who originally evangelised them, I beg you to "forgive them, for they knew not what they did." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Don't you just love the arrogance of CoC Christians? They truly believe that the ONLY outcome for a TRULY honest person confronted with the bible is that the person will agree completely with them. Since they have the Truthtm and God makes it so that any person who seeks Truthtm will find it. I'm so glad I finally found some truth after so many years. Too bad that means my family and old friends are not allowed to see me as an intellectually honest person anymore. Hey don't knock it. If you were CoC like me, that makes you a TrueApostate Awesome! Is there an official club? Do I get a membership card? Yes, but be quite about it. Most of these people can't join. Some of them are even ex-Baptists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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