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Goodbye Jesus

A few common questions


ExRC

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God is all knowing and created everything.

 

1) Why did God create evil in the first place? Boredom?

 

2) Why did God give us free will, only to become angry if we use it?

 

3) Why would God create a human being, knowing that human being is hell bound on judgment day? (God is all knowing...remember?) Just don't bother in the first place.

 

I suppose question #3 more or less ties into #1 and #2.

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In answers to your question....

 

1. Yes, probably boredom

 

2. Because he's an asshole

 

3. see #2

 

Had I been christian, i woulda said something like this....

 

1. God didn't create evil!!! It was satan who rebelled and created evil!!!

 

2. If god hadn't given us free will, we'd be robots!!! God only becomes angry because he's a just and good god!!!

 

3. God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go!!!

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In answers to your question....

 

1. Yes, probably boredom

 

2. Because he's an asshole

 

3. see #2

 

Had I been christian, i woulda said something like this....

 

1. God didn't create evil!!! It was satan who rebelled and created evil!!!

 

2. If god hadn't given us free will, we'd be robots!!! God only becomes angry because he's a just and good god!!!

 

3. God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go!!!

Very scary, and very true.

 

And then here's some alternative explanations, just for the heck of it...

 

1. God created Evil, because he's schizo.

 

2. We don't have a free will, it's only an illusion. We're puppets in Gods hands.

 

3. Hell is here. We made the wrong choice in our previous life in another dimension. We were angels, and rebelled, we are the fallen ones.

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3. Hell is here. We made the wrong choice in our previous life in another dimension. We were angels, and rebelled, we are the fallen ones.

 

Interesting. I've toyed with this concept as well.

 

If this is hell, I can deal with it.

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Had I been christian, i woulda said something like this....
The sad thing is that hardly any of these are exaggerations. I've literally heard real Christians give these very answers.

 

1. God didn't create evil!!! It was satan who rebelled and created evil!!!
And who created Satan? God. Who gave Satan the nature to rebel? God. Who's responsible? God.

 

2. If god hadn't given us free will, we'd be robots!!! God only becomes angry because he's a just and good god!!!
And thus Christians have to warp the meaning of the word "good" in order to make such a statement. To a Christian, the will of God is good, so if God ordered the slaughter of men, women, and children, as he often did in the Old Testament, then that slaughter would be good.

 

3. God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go!!!
I wish Christians who actually say things like this would choose to go to hell.

 

This reminds me of an abusive relationship in which a violent husband convinces his battered wife that it's her fault that he has to beat her every night. It's more sad than anything.

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Yeah. In the end the only one to blame is God.

 

He created the Universe, man, the devil, hell, sickness, temptation (the first was the fruit of knowledge, which God created and tempted the humans first before the snake) ... and so on.

 

If God made everything, shouldn't he get the full blame too?

Or is he so powerfull that he can create evil and escape the punishment for it?

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Or is he so powerfull that he can create evil and escape the punishment for it?
Well, don't forget. He punished himself. He came down in the flesh and sacrificed himself on the cross to himself so he could spend a whole three days in Hell.

 

"Eh... That's long enough."

~JesusLordGod, in Hell, appox. 33 AD

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The sad thing is that hardly any of these are exaggerations. I've literally heard real Christians give these very answers.

 

Really? Those are the ONLY answers they've ever given me to those questions. They defy logic, but it's all they got.

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Well, don't forget.  He punished himself.  He came down in the flesh and sacrificed himself on the cross to himself so he could spend a whole three days in Hell.

 

"Eh... That's long enough."

~JesusLordGod, in Hell, appox. 33 AD

Yeah! And it's kind of funny!

 

"Ooh. Look at me! I'm going to hell. La la la la la."

 

"Ouch. Oh no, mr Devil. Don't tie me up! Don't whip me!"

 

"I've been a baaad boy, mr Devil. Don't hit me hard."

 

Can y'all see it? The heavenly master/slave enaction of all times.

 

:lmao:

 

 

 

 

Man, am I going to hell or what! :wicked:

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Well, don't forget.  He punished himself.  He came down in the flesh and sacrificed himself on the cross to himself so he could spend a whole three days in Hell.

 

"Eh... That's long enough."

~JesusLordGod, in Hell, appox. 33 AD

 

After doing that, you'd have thought he'd have realized Hell is no place for ANYONE. Upon his resurrection he should have abolished Hell before he ascended on that transit beam.

 

Or maybe Paul made up the whole thing after meeting Satan on the way to Damascus, as Jesus had, all those years ago. Except Paul believed Satan was Jesus. How silly of him. Look what he caused.

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After doing that, you'd have thought he'd have realized Hell is no place for ANYONE.  Upon his resurrection he should have abolished Hell before he ascended on that transit beam.

 

Or maybe Paul made up the whole thing after meeting Satan on the way to Damascus, as Jesus had, all those years ago.  Except Paul believed Satan was Jesus.  How silly of him.  Look what he caused.

Very insightful. Jebz should have seen the horror and the terror that Hell was and immediately expressed: "What the FUCK? This is bad! Did I create this? Man, I'm going to demolish the whole 'hell' doctrine this instant, before any more innocent people are sent here."

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He created the Universe, man, the devil, hell, sickness, temptation (the first was the fruit of knowledge, which God created and tempted the humans first before the snake) ... and so on.

 

 

 

Not only did he create it, but he created it WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that humans would submit to the temptation he created. He created it with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the sickness, disease, and misery that would follow. This guy can see into the future according to scripture. He knew the course of events, and with that foreknowledge, STILL decided to create everything. Talk about one sick SOB! Either that, or the whole story is bullshit.

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But eternal torture in hell is a way of chastising and training his children so they will become better people. It's good parenting!! All loving parents want their children to be good don't they? It's a GOOD THING to let them suffer for every second of every minute of every day for ever and ever (amen) so that they will be HAPPIER afterwards.

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This reminds me of an abusive relationship in which a violent husband convinces his battered wife that it's her fault that he has to beat her every night.  It's more sad than anything.

 

 

I believe this is a very important point. The Christian God is basically an abusive (fictive) person, always giving double sided messages:

 

"I love you so much - so be careful because else I may hurt you. You are so wrong, and I am so loving. So blame yourself, when I get angry".

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Yeah! And it's kind of funny!

 

"Ooh. Look at me! I'm going to hell. La la la la la."

 

"Ouch. Oh no, mr Devil. Don't tie me up! Don't whip me!"

 

"I've been a baaad boy, mr Devil. Don't hit me hard."

 

Can y'all see it? The heavenly master/slave enaction of all times.

 

:lmao:

Man, am I going to hell or what!  :wicked:

 

 

Only image I get; Jesus engaging in a bit of "lovin' your enemy," without the lube. It's South Park without Saddam, and Jesus this time is the bitch.

 

Which also begs the question of what Jesus-as-God actually did down there. Did He actually run into Satan? Did they argue? Ignore one another? Try to out-wit each other? I don't even remember if the Bible even mentioned what transpired past him going down for three days.

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Guest Joseph
God is all knowing and created everything.

 

1) Why did God create evil in the first place? Boredom?

 

A Judaic answer:

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 

Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 

 

2) Why did God give us free will, only to become angry if we use it?

 

...to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgements, that thou mayest live and multiply.

 

The answer would be that the free will is given limtedly, and what you do with it can either be a blessing in your life or a curse, the choice is up to you of course. But we as humans do not have perfect free will. You can not decide to fly by flapping your arms, or to be healthy if you have an incurable disease. Many times our decisions are not freely made but are influenced by our environment, needs, and past more-so than any fake idea of freedom implanted in us by false religious doctrine.

 

3) Why would God create a human being, knowing that human being is hell bound on judgment day? (God is all knowing...remember?) Just don't bother in the first place.

(snip)

 

False question, based souly upon the idea that humans have a destiny which leads to eternal torment which is a christian idea and not judaic, thus I can not give a judaic answer to a biased question other than to say it is not a correct assumption of the God of the Jews perhaps. There really is no way to answer the unjustified idea of an "elect" that Paul teaches in comparison to the path of righteousness taught by Ezekiel, the two are diametrically opposed views of eternal justice by default.

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Is morality independent of God?? that's my question

 

In Exodus we discover the Bible's statement on this issue; God discovers that the people have created an idol and they are worshipping it, so he decides to kill them all. Moses talks him out of it, and in Exodus 32:14, "the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people". Did you notice that? The Lord repented of the evil he was about to do! If morality flows from God and God alone, then why did God need a mortal to stop him from doing evil? Why would God have to repent, if morality is something which flows from his authority and nowhere else? Could it be that the Bible itself acknowledges that morality transcends God and his commandments? It certainly seems that way, particularly when you look back at Genesis 3:22. After Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, God said "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Does God say that he creates good and evil? No, he says that he knows good and evil. In other words, good and evil are concepts which are separate from God, and he himself is confessedly capable of evil!

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( Sorry for the bad grammer and the LONG LONG speech/rant)

 

In the case of Christians, every aspect of the Old Testament is supposedly tempered by Jesus' invocation of the "Golden Rule", but few (if any) Christians are willing to abandon or criticize the Ten Commandments. Instead, the consensus seems to be that the Ten Commandments are as valid today as they were in Moses' time. With that in mind, let us examine those commandments carefully, as found in Exodus 20:2 to 20:17 (King James version):

 

I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

 

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

 

Look carefully at those commandments. The first commandment instructs us to worship God, thus condemning religious freedom. The second commandment forbids the creation of and worship of idols, thus condemning religious freedom again. The third commandment instructs us not to take his name "in vain", thus condemning freedom of speech. The fourth commandment instructs us to observe his sabbath day, thus condemning religious freedom for a third time. The fifth through ninth commandments are much better, but they are also common to the ancient writings of different cultures around the world, and we don't need Judeo-Christianity or the Ten Commandments in order to figure them out for ourselves. And finally, the tenth commandment condemns the act of "coveting", and reveals the Bible's misogyny by classifying a man's wife as part of his property, along with his house and cattle.

 

These commandments were supposedly shouted by God from on high, which terrified the people. Moses spoke privately with him, and God told him that since the people had seen him speak to God, they would accept anything he had to say (this was the birth of the notion that special anointed "Holy Men" should interpret God for the masses).

 

Moses supposedly wrote God's commandments on a set of stone tablets, which he smashed upon seeing the infamous golden calf (Exodus 32). He then ordered the Levites to "go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbour", which they promptly did, killing some 3000 people (this was an important moral precedent for Judaism, Islamism, and Christianity; the people were "evil" because they were worshipping an idol, and Moses was righteous because he butchered them in the name of the Lord, who wouldn't have stopped at a mere 3000 dead). After this atrocity, Moses then went back up the mountain where God asked for two new stone tablets, saying that "I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets". He then proceeded to dictate an entirely different set of ten commandments, which he then instructed Moses to write down. This second set of ten commandments is as follows (Exodus 34:12 to 34:26, King James version):

 

Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

 

Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

 

The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

 

All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

 

Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

 

And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

 

Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

 

Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

 

The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

 

Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

 

The existence of two contradictory sets of "Ten Commandments" in the Bible (described by God himself as the same) is almost comical in light of its supposed "inerrance" (and the creationists would have us use this document as not only the template for morality, but also the basis of science). By comparing the two sets of commandments, we can see where their priorities lie. The first four commandments in the first set are devoted to worshipping God and observing his rituals, and the first nine commandments in the second set are devoted to worshipping God and observing his rituals.

 

The first of the "new" Commandments is rather interesting, is it not? Faithful followers, upon encountering those of different beliefs, must "destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves". Christians are almost unanimous in saying that religious bigotry is a violation of "true" Christianity, but we can see that the source of that bigotry can be found right in the Ten Commandments! Therein lies the real problem: what modern Christians think of as the "true" faith is actually one which has almost completely broken away from the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments. That's not a bad thing (actually, I think it's a pretty good idea, considering the repugnant morality of the Old Testament) but they don't seem willing to admit it, so they try to convince themselves that it's possible to obey the Ten Commandments, follow Jesus, and be a good person all at the same time. That is simply not possible. Anyone who obeys the words inscribed in Moses' tablets according to the book of Exodus must be a hateful religious bigot.

 

And what about everyone's favourite commandment, "Thou shalt not kill?" It doesn't appear until commandment number six in the first set of commandments, and it doesn't appear at all in the second set! In fact, the second set has nothing that resembles modern morality whatsoever! If we are to take this literally, it means that God changed his mind about the wisdom of the first set of commandments, and handed down a second set in which unimportant commandments such as "Thou shalt not kill" were eliminated in favour of more worship instructions (this must reflect God's values; after all, his servant Moses killed 3000 people after being given the first set, despite its admonition not to kill, and God did not rebuke or punish him). The simple fact is that the Biblical commandments contain only one consistent thread: you must worship and obey God. Everything else is strictly subordinate to that rule, and rules found in common inter-cultural moral law such as "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not steal" are so unimportant that they were in the bottom half of the first set, and completely omitted from the second set! Interesting set of priorities, is it not? If we read the Bible with an open mind, we can see that these people had values we would regard as repugnant today, and that their values simply cannot be used in the modern world.

 

As a scheme of "universal morality" for secular nations to aspire to, the Ten Commandments are a joke. They are inherently bigoted, because they declare that anyone who doesn't worship God and observe his holidays is breaking the first four commandments (nine, if you're using the second set) and is therefore immoral! In fact, if you use the second set, you're immoral unless you actively attack other religions! Small wonder, then, that religious intolerance has figured so prominently in Judeo-Christian history, and it is still found in the public speeches and attitudes of fundamentalists to this day. Christians may feel free to obey the first set of Ten Commandments (although frankly, the second set is so immoral that I consider it totally unacceptable), but only for themselves. They cannot uphold them as a "universal standard" for others and they cannot take others to task for not upholding them, because they are entirely specific to Christianity, and they codify religious hatred into law. They make sins out of free speech and belief, and any system of "morality" which makes crimes out of words or beliefs is clearly a system of oppression.

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I'm going to play "God's Advocate" for a second:

 

1) Why did God create evil in the first place? Boredom?

 

Why did God create anything?

 

If God created good, would that not neccessarily create evil at the same time?

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