Autonomous Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 Thanks . Though to be honest I really should try to resist my tendency to want to nurture and give out all the time. I still have 4 kids at home so there's plenty of nurturing to be done, and it's time for me to start focussing on some other aspects of life. I realised something else just now- I have been shutting down the feelings that I have previously considered to be spiritual or transcendant, thinking that they related to belief in a deity or spiritual force, that they are a fake God experience created by my brain. But of course I don't have to do that, they are not fake experiences where my brain is trying to con me, they are a genuine human response to the wonders and joys of life. I can accept and enjoy them without needing to worry that means I am seeking to connect with some kind of divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I realised something else just now- I have been shutting down the feelings that I have previously considered to be spiritual or transcendant, thinking that they related to belief in a deity or spiritual force, that they are a fake God experience created by my brain. But of course I don't have to do that, they are not fake experiences where my brain is trying to con me, they are a genuine human response to the wonders and joys of life. I can accept and enjoy them without needing to worry that means I am seeking to connect with some kind of divine. Hallelujah! I'll sit with you Auto and we'll outsing those selfish ole Christians every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I realised something else just now- I have been shutting down the feelings that I have previously considered to be spiritual or transcendant, thinking that they related to belief in a deity or spiritual force, that they are a fake God experience created by my brain. But of course I don't have to do that, they are not fake experiences where my brain is trying to con me, they are a genuine human response to the wonders and joys of life. I can accept and enjoy them without needing to worry that means I am seeking to connect with some kind of divine. Hallelujah! I'll sit with you Auto and we'll outsing those selfish ole Christians every time! My sense of the divine is more personal awe at things greater than myself. Knowledge is sometimes shocking when you finally put the pieces together. And I can look at the night sky and see into the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I realised something else just now- I have been shutting down the feelings that I have previously considered to be spiritual or transcendant, thinking that they related to belief in a deity or spiritual force, that they are a fake God experience created by my brain. But of course I don't have to do that, they are not fake experiences where my brain is trying to con me, they are a genuine human response to the wonders and joys of life. I can accept and enjoy them without needing to worry that means I am seeking to connect with some kind of divine. Hallelujah! I'll sit with you Auto and we'll outsing those selfish ole Christians every time! My sense of the divine is more personal awe at things greater than myself. Knowledge is sometimes shocking when you finally put the pieces together. And I can look at the night sky and see into the past... Honest to Go., or to something, you gave me chills Shyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Thanks . Though to be honest I really should try to resist my tendency to want to nurture and give out all the time. I still have 4 kids at home so there's plenty of nurturing to be done, and it's time for me to start focussing on some other aspects of life. I beg your pardon. When I posted this, I was sure I'd seen somewhere in this thread that your kids had left. Whoops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 Thanks . Though to be honest I really should try to resist my tendency to want to nurture and give out all the time. I still have 4 kids at home so there's plenty of nurturing to be done, and it's time for me to start focussing on some other aspects of life. I beg your pardon. When I posted this, I was sure I'd seen somewhere in this thread that your kids had left. Whoops! No worries . I would like to do some voluntary work sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 I realised something else just now- I have been shutting down the feelings that I have previously considered to be spiritual or transcendant, thinking that they related to belief in a deity or spiritual force, that they are a fake God experience created by my brain. But of course I don't have to do that, they are not fake experiences where my brain is trying to con me, they are a genuine human response to the wonders and joys of life. I can accept and enjoy them without needing to worry that means I am seeking to connect with some kind of divine. Hallelujah! I'll sit with you Auto and we'll outsing those selfish ole Christians every time! My sense of the divine is more personal awe at things greater than myself. Knowledge is sometimes shocking when you finally put the pieces together. And I can look at the night sky and see into the past... Honest to Go., or to something, you gave me chills Shyone! Indeed . Being a listmaker, I made a list yesterday of anything that triggers feelings I would have previous considered spiritual. I have quite a list. I shut myself in my bedroom and had a singalong with some CDs, I love to sing (always wanted to be a worship leader LOL). Had a spiritual experience singing along to Tori Amos' Crucify LOL, isn't that perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Being a listmaker, I made a list yesterday of anything that triggers feelings I would have previous considered spiritual. I have quite a list. I shut myself in my bedroom and had a singalong with some CDs, I love to sing (always wanted to be a worship leader LOL). Had a spiritual experience singing along to Tori Amos' Crucify LOL, isn't that perfect! Some of our sense of the divine is predictable and well known to us, just like some foods are well known to be pleasing. Sometimes we get caught off guard. I find that my upbringing and culture influence what I find spiritual, and some of that still has to do with religion. I still lisen to choral music, even if religious. Requiems are written to honor the dead and speak of ideals which, even if untrue, still can inspire. Churches, with their lofty architecture and intricate details, inspire me in a way. But then, so does nature, secular architecture, and some secular music. The difference I think, is that some human creations are designed to make us feel something. It alsmost makes me think I'm being manipulated, but so what. If I enjoy the manipulation and realize where it's coming from, then I can stil enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 But then, so does nature, secular architecture, and some secular music. The difference I think, is that some human creations are designed to make us feel something. It alsmost makes me think I'm being manipulated, but so what. If I enjoy the manipulation and realize where it's coming from, then I can stil enjoy it. Amen to that LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I find that my upbringing and culture influence what I find spiritual, and some of that still has to do with religion. I still lisen to choral music, even if religious. Requiems are written to honor the dead and speak of ideals which, even if untrue, still can inspire. Churches, with their lofty architecture and intricate details, inspire me in a way. But then, so does nature, secular architecture, and some secular music. The difference I think, is that some human creations are designed to make us feel something. It alsmost makes me think I'm being manipulated, but so what. If I enjoy the manipulation and realize where it's coming from, then I can stil enjoy it. There is some 'art' that is designed to make us feel something, and you're right that usually leaves a taste in your mouth that you've just been played. It's like a Stephen Spielberg film, or a Country Western song that strings things together for the purpose of evoking an emotional response. Sure you may get a tear in the eye, but then you feel played. This is the difference between entertainment and art. Art is something that to me is about an individual's personal expression of something inside them in response to something they experience through the world through them. It's not about the audience hearing, it's about speaking to the world in response to it in you. It's that sort of art, these sorts of expressions that people of spirit respond to. And that response is deep, and far reaching as opposed to just emotional. It's an existential connection to the Universe outside and inside us. It's about touching that and living that consciously in us. So when it comes to mythologies, though they are in part of their function, about the personal experience of the inner world, they are not essential to the experience of this. Their value can be to those who don't take them literally, is to open them up to that inner reality of personal and social transcendence, especially in a world that takes the power of science and flattens the world to that external perception as ultimate reality. But the answer isn't in the vehicles of symbolic understanding for children, both individually and socially, but in exposing us to something in us that is worth understanding existentially. That we feel true inspiration if these religious and secular expressions is not about them being either religious or secular. It's about them being Human. It's about vision, perception, pull, desire, and the evolution of our minds. None of them are the thing itself, but means to open one up to it in themselves in the face of their existence in the World. So... today... after two years of remodeling our house... I'm pulling my piano out of the back room it was crammed into and will be sitting down and expressing the Universe through my soul into the world through sound, writing what may now be living in me these years expressed in ways other than music, and which for me, only music can truly say. Love without words, song, Being. (Although I suspect it will be badly out of tune... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 That we feel true inspiration if these religious and secular expressions is not about them being either religious or secular. It's about them being Human. It's about vision, perception, pull, desire, and the evolution of our minds. None of them are the thing itself, but means to open one up to it in themselves in the face of their existence in the World. So... today... after two years of remodeling our house... I'm pulling my piano out of the back room it was crammed into and will be sitting down and expressing the Universe through my soul into the world through sound, writing what may now be living in me these years expressed in ways other than music, and which for me, only music can truly say. Love without words, song, Being. (Although I suspect it will be badly out of tune... ) I agree with everything you said, but in art as in music, there are still some universal triggers for some reactions. The standard ones are so commonplace that they are practically cliche', but used wisely in the hands of someone with sufficient talent, the whole scheme can be changed. The "standard" things I'm talking about are, for example, minor key = sad, major key = happy, red = anger/violence, blue = peace. I think these are almost ingrained, but an artist can take a major key and make you cry, or a minor key and make you happy, or red and give you peace, or blue and make you angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 Hi again, I really want to say thanks to everyone here, especially those who have been practising their empathic listening despite me being an alien species . I'm going to take a little breather from this site now. I've become rather obsessed with reading, studying, thinking and discussing religion and spirituality and it's not really getting me anywhere. I've realised I can't reason myself into a confidence of the truth. Don't worry, that doesn't mean I am going to throw myself on the mercy of my emotions and go running "back to Jesus", even if that was possible, which it isn't as I don't believe in him, my emotions don't lead my that way. They swing wildly to and fro and get me nowhere. Having said that, much as it pains me to admit it, I've realised I am not quite ready to completely let go of Christianity. I think I am being logical but you may not agree . I can't reason or read myself into an answer I feel confident with and I don't feel I know the truth either. So I think I need to give it some time and space. There are many reasons why Christianity was a disaster for me (crap at church, stupid theology, listening to them telling me to drop my food and mood plan which was guaranteed to send me spiralling down) and I will not fall into those traps again. But I need to acknowledge that for me the door is still open to the possibility that there is some truth in it. I need to step away from outside influence of whatever viewpoint and just see where that takes me. I'm going to go to my husband's new church (nice English Church of England with nicey nice vicar who is willing to discuss any hard question you like and never tells you what to think) a few times and spend a bit of time reading the Bible and praying, just me and none of the old crap, no endless Christian books looking for "the answer", no stupid AOG church with silly, thoughtless leadership and so on. I am expecting it will take me nowhere and I'll be back here soon saying I now know I can walk away from Christianity and not look back, but I need to do this to be able to get to that place. Giving God one last chance to show me that he is real I suppose. Well, I don't believe he is, but until I have done this I'm just not able to walk away permanently. I don't want people to think I am abandoning rationality, but I have to work through the stages of this in my own way. I've tried to just accept being in limbo but I'm no good at that, I'm a "want to know" type so I have to do whatever I think will help me progress with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Nothing wrong with giving yourself due diligence on such an big issue. It took many of us years to get to where we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 I found this blog, looks like I gave a few things in common with this guy http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=3377 Nothing wrong with giving yourself due diligence on such an big issue. It took many of us years to get to where we are now. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Wow - I missed a lot on this thread. Glad to see that our fumbling and stumbling has helped you process things a bit - or maybe you've just processed things in spite of us. I'll sit with you and help out-sing those Christians any day, or better yet we can leave them in their happy bubble and go have a couple beers. I don't know what your musical taste is like, but I thought I'd give you a link to the only truly atheist song I've ever heard that gave me tingles: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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