wonderer Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I have to confess that I predict that this "guerrilla" action will not end well. It would be one thing if the members of the so-called bible "study" group were actually out to get to the truth underlying the text - author, motive, edits, canonization process, etc. - but that's not what they are gathering to do. No matter how pleasant and smiling you might be in confronting their assumptions and blind acceptance of the "official" interpretation of these passages, ultimately they will have no choice but to reject your arguments - even if they seem to make sense. Maybe especially if they seem to make sense. You cannot challenge scriptural interpretations with logic, except perhaps in a formal debate. Even if you have what you think is unimpeachable logic, a really good bible scholar will start (literally) speaking Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew at you. He will take on an air of conspicuous patience, as though a parent listening to a child ask why the sky is blue, and then say something like, "Oh, but you're forgetting the original Greek for that particular use of the word meant..." and then proceed to explain how the passage actually means something completely different from what it appears to mean to the uneducated layman. The rest of the group will breathe a sigh of relief, and you will feel like a fool. Alternatively, if the leader of the group is not a full-on bible scholar and you start in on pointing out apparent contradictions, as soon as confusion begins to manifest itself, the leaders will use it as proof that your arguments are not valid, even though they seem logical, because "confusion is not of the Lord." If you persist in causing consternation, they will turn to prayer, and end the conversation. The group will breathe a sigh of relief, and you will feel like a fool. You will also be "uninvited" to the group's future meetings. There is a temptation for former Christians, somewhere along the path to full liberation, to believe that they can illuminate the contradictions and prove to Christians that the bible they depend upon is a house made of cards, but it doesn't work. They didn't become Christians by using logic and common sense, and they can't be convinced to see the light, if it means their "convictions" may be overturned in the process. If you are an ex-christian, think back to when intellectuals attempted to get you to see the light, and how you reacted. I could be wrong about this "experiment," and if I am, I'd love to hear about it! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Update: Attended the study last evening. Rob.....you pretty much nailed it, although the group did not try and make me look like a fool. I wanted to ease into textual criticism by questioning the authorship and which group or sect of "christians" the unknown author of John was trying to preach to. Basically, the question was avoided after being acknowledged as interesting. They kept droning on about how beautiful a certain passage was..yada yada yada. The only time there was any kind of interesting debate was when a couple ex catholics (who's relatives still remain catholic) questioned the born again experience as being the only way to heaven. I sensed they were uncomfortable with the born again doctrine, even though they have expressed they had the experience. They were shot down immediately, stating that being born again was "biblical" and only true believers attain heaven. I wanted so much to discuss this, as the born again doctrine is new to christianity (less than 100 years old) and had reached its zenith in the 70's with the Jesus People Movement, and I wanted to bring this up. But time was short and they decided to adjourn the meeting. Good news is there are at least one, maybe two in the group who are open to questioning some things. I will continue to feel these people out and see if I can steer the conversation towards them and areas where they disagree with the majority. My next meeting is in a month, as I cannot make the next one. We meet every 2 weeks. Thanks for the responses.. Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I wanted so much to discuss this, as the born again doctrine is new to christianity (less than 100 years old) and had reached its zenith in the 70's with the Jesus People Movement, and I wanted to bring this up. They'd probably just whip out John 3:3 and/or 1 Peter 1:23. But if you're armed with the translational issues that Bart Ehrman brings up about John 3:3, then at least you'd have a response, but I doubt if it would carry much weight with the firm believers. From a quick BlueLetterBible search, it appears that there may also be a translational issue with 1 Peter 1:23. I'm not sure if Ehrman deals with that or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Basically, the question was avoided after being acknowledged as interesting. They kept droning on about how beautiful a certain passage was..yada yada yada. This was exactly my experience when I attended a Bible study that I'd hoped would be more philosophical in nature. I was shut out by polite avoidance. Short of standing up and intoning "Satan is lord", I could have said just about anything without it either creating a stir or having anyone really be willing to hear what I said. How did your wife feel about your interactions with the group? My main concern has been that your dissension would push you away from her, or her away from her friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Basically, the question was avoided after being acknowledged as interesting. They kept droning on about how beautiful a certain passage was..yada yada yada. This was exactly my experience when I attended a Bible study that I'd hoped would be more philosophical in nature. I was shut out by polite avoidance. Short of standing up and intoning "Satan is lord", I could have said just about anything without it either creating a stir or having anyone really be willing to hear what I said. How did your wife feel about your interactions with the group? My main concern has been that your dissension would push you away from her, or her away from her friends. During the study, she was upbeat and calm, but she was also one of the people steering the conversation towards the spiritual message of the passages and away from anything textual or philosophical. Afterward she was very attentive to me and affectionate....go figure. Yesterday was a different story. Together we read some verses and I started talking about the historical context of the verses and who the author might be. She said John definitely wrote all of it and most scholars agreed with her. I suggested she check both secular and christian textual critics as this is an area where they may agree about the gospels. No one is absolutely sure who wrote them. I also said the author may have been sending a message to christians of a different sect to admonish them for straying from "John's" christian point of view. I reinforced the fact that there were different sects of christianity during those times, much like there are different denominations today. She disagreed, and became obviously agitated, then went to her referenced bible and read numerous versus to shore up her argument which really didn't make much sense to me. She also found a footnote in her bible that agreed with what I said regarding different christian sects. She didn't like what she read, I could tell. She then read some quotes from Josh McDowell's book "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", that had nothing to do with our discussion. I could tell she was searching for validation of some sort, but was somewhat lost. I didn't push it, and said those were interesting quotes and left if alone. It seems I raised some doubts and she rallied to make herself more comfortable, but I think I made my point. The psychological games are amazing to me. I wasn't even angry with the irrationality. I almost felt sorry for her. Weird... Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderer Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 ... It seems I raised some doubts and she rallied to make herself more comfortable, but I think I made my point. The psychological games are amazing to me. I wasn't even angry with the irrationality. I almost felt sorry for her. Weird... Centauro I have a piece of advice for you, for what it's worth. Your wife is floundering, thrashing about in something of a spiritual panic. The more you poke at her beliefs, the harder she is likely to grab onto any lifeline she can - and that lifeline will not be your carefully composed logic. It will go the other way. Trust me on this. Here's my advice: Don't go to the bible study. If your wife feels like she needs to go, it's because she feels she needs something it offers, but it's only temporary. Let her go with your blessing. Be supportive and kind. The group's purpose in having the bible study is to reinforce their beliefs - not to challenge or analyze them intellectually and dispassionately. Since you don't share their beliefs, attending the bible study is basically a dishonest act with ulterior motives, and you are not going to change anyone's mind there. Instead, redirect the energy you're devoting to theological fisticuffs into romance, instead. Make love to your wife instead of making her uncomfortable about her beliefs, no matter how absurd you think they are. Start dating her and wooing her, as though you have just met and have fallen in love. Find concerts or plays or dining opportunities that just happen to fall on bible study nights. Buy yourself some new clothes. Get a manicure and a new hair style. Knock her socks off. No intellectual arguments about religion can hold a candle to that. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I reinforced the fact that there were different sects of christianity during those times, much like there are different denominations today. She disagreed, and became obviously agitated, then went to her referenced bible and read numerous versus to shore up her argument which really didn't make much sense to me. She also found a footnote in her bible that agreed with what I said regarding different christian sects. She didn't like what she read, I could tell. Show her Bart Ehrman's "Lost Scriptures," which has a lot of the revered texts of other early sects of christianity, and "Lost Christianities," which explains a lot of what went on in early christianity. All in all, though, she may be a bit confused now, since a bible footnote acknowledged what you were trying to get across. In the back of her mind, she may be wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I agree with Rob. I think that the risk of causing permanent damage in your relationship with your wife is greater than the chance that you'll change some random Christian's mind at a devotional Bible study, and the potential risk is also far greater than the potential reward. If she's searching for validation, I hope that you can be there to give that to her as a person who you love- and not a person who you love because she does or doesn't have certain beliefs- if she's lost and uncomfortable, either she'll look for that validation in the certainty of your love for her... or in her group of Christian friends. If you're seen as an antagonistic figure, trying to push her Bible study group away or unable to allow her to hold her beliefs with her group without you getting involved... I have a hard time believing that she'll be able to turn to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderer Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 The value of what I'm about to say is tempered by the knowledge that my experiences may not mean anything to anyone but me, but here goes. I went through what Centauro is now going through, at least as far as the circumstances are concerned. My wife became increasingly drawn to bible studies and prayer groups, and I became increasingly antagonistic and intellectually aggressive. I knew I was right, and I thought that my superior logic and rapier-like logic would cut through the religious claptrap like a mighty sword. I had yet to learn a fundamental truth about religion: religion is not about logic. It's about faith. And what is faith? "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Faith cannot be conquered by intellectual arguments. It can only be defeated by experience. Faith is therefore more akin to emotion than to intellect. My wife tended toward judging the value of an idea by how it made her feel - not by sound reasoning - and that made her a prime candidate for faith-based activities. The thing I didn't get back then is the power of love. It is the key to countering Christian dogma and rote quoting of scripture, because - after all - Christianity purports to be about love. The churches all sing songs about it, quote scripture about it, and do just about everything having to do with love except actually love those who are different from them. That is where the true power is, and the pastors, priests and deacons know it. They are therefore resistant to allowing it to rear its ugly head, but that is the weak link in Christianity. That it is about love, but won't allow love. What I should have done was to start loving my wife into making the right decision; instead, I argued her into making the wrong decision. When the day came that I drew a line in the sand, and said it was either the church or me, it was too late. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Good points there, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Excellent advice Rob and Clara. Citsonga..I have the book! Rob and Clara. This has been a 20 year ordeal and I have been thru that phase of our spiritual differences a long time ago. I have been accommodating to her spiritual journey like you would not believe. See some of my previous threads. At this point in our marriage I do not attack with logic and reason. I do what you suggest, I counter her now subtle witnessing with love and romance. I never debate anymore...haven't for a long time. A while back I stopped accompanying her to her church, as it was just not comfortable for me to sit there and hear all the garbage and I was continually witnessed to from those who knew me. I was always polite and controlled, never really countering any of the party line I was fed. I just didn't want to be exposed to it anymore and frankly, I didn't want to waste my sunday mornings anymore. I have supported my wife's spiritual journey for a long time, and I decided for my psychological and physical health I was done with participating in her world of fantasy. I was invited to this bible study and was honest with the participants as to where I stood. They understood my position but wanted me to join in anyway...my wife knew that. After 20+ years I decided to be who I am in a kind and loving way and let the chips fall where they may. If my wife cannot live with that, so be it. It would be more damaging to me to live a double life than to be honest with myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I really respect you for being with your wife through this for 20 years. I definitely think that you deserve to be yourself and have her support for your beliefs... I just have trouble seeing any benefit to your being at this Bible study. Maybe some things have come up recently where it's impossible for you to just both live with your beliefs peacefully? I read the intro thread to this one, but don't remember all the circumstances behind it. Will any outcome besides having her realize that Christianity is a farce be acceptable to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 I really respect you for being with your wife through this for 20 years. I definitely think that you deserve to be yourself and have her support for your beliefs... I just have trouble seeing any benefit to your being at this Bible study. Maybe some things have come up recently where it's impossible for you to just both live with your beliefs peacefully? I read the intro thread to this one, but don't remember all the circumstances behind it. Will any outcome besides having her realize that Christianity is a farce be acceptable to you? My wife can believe what she wants, as long as it doesn't interfere with personal relationships. That is a tall order for fundies. We live in peace 95% of the time. My goal is for the 5% of the time she can live and let live. I am done compromising who I am for that 5% of the time so she can be comfortable in her beliefs. It has been damaging to me both physically and emotionally to keep this up and this is where I draw the line at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderer Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Rob and Clara. This has been a 20 year ordeal and I have been thru that phase of our spiritual differences a long time ago. I have been accommodating to her spiritual journey like you would not believe. See some of my previous threads. At this point in our marriage I do not attack with logic and reason. I do what you suggest, I counter her now subtle witnessing with love and romance. I never debate anymore...haven't for a long time. But then, isn't that what this entire thread has been about? Haven't you been asking for help in debating these people? A while back I stopped accompanying her to her church, as it was just not comfortable for me to sit there and hear all the garbage and I was continually witnessed to from those who knew me. I was always polite and controlled, never really countering any of the party line I was fed. I just didn't want to be exposed to it anymore and frankly, I didn't want to waste my sunday mornings anymore. But then, why are you suddenly deciding to jump back into it? Is this thread possibly all about your struggles with Christianity, and not your wife's? (Just asking) I have supported my wife's spiritual journey for a long time, and I decided for my psychological and physical health I was done with participating in her world of fantasy. I was invited to this bible study and was honest with the participants as to where I stood. They understood my position but wanted me to join in anyway...my wife knew that. But what difference does it make whether the group - including your wife - know you don't believe any of this stuff? How could joining this group make your life better, or help your relationship with your wife? I have to say that I'm confused now. In your initial post, you stated that your wife was invited to the bible study - not that you were. If what you're saying is that the people in this group knew you were a confirmed non-believer, and that you were were going to attend and attempt to point out inconsistencies and contradictions in the scriptures they were studying, then why did they invite you to join the group in the first place? It doesn't make any sense. Were they expecting to convert you? After 20+ years I decided to be who I am in a kind and loving way and let the chips fall where they may. If my wife cannot live with that, so be it. It would be more damaging to me to live a double life than to be honest with myself. But earlier, you said: This has been a 20 year ordeal and I have been thru that phase of our spiritual differences a long time ago. I have been accommodating to her spiritual journey like you would not believe. See some of my previous threads. At this point in our marriage I do not attack with logic and reason. I do what you suggest, I counter her now subtle witnessing with love and romance. I never debate anymore...haven't for a long time. If you counter her witnessing with love and romance, then you are already taking the best course, in my opinion. But it sounds like you are now tired of that, and want to fight. I know you said you aren't into debating, but you actually are, right? Here's how the thread started: Some friends invited my wife (she's a fundy) to a bible study. See my other thread on "Book Recommendations for my Fundy Wife". Initially I was put off by it, but decided it might be interesting and an opportunity to really get to know me and where I am at spiritually. Did you mean that it might be interesting for you, or for the people in the bible study, or your wife? Are these all people you know? But you said they already know where you stand, so what new information would you be sharing? Sorry, I really am confused at this point. This ain't gonna be a mutual admiration society. I am going to not pull any punches, but I will be respectful and be a gentelman. Does this sentence mean that you are, or aren't going to attack their beliefs? I have no doubt this will piss my wife off, but I gave her the option of not participating. This now sounds like your true motive in going to these studies - to take pot shots at your wife for the years of misery you've endured. Otherwise, what do you have to gain? The person heading the study knows where I am regarding the bible, but wants me to participate anyway. So be it. But to what end? What's in it for you, exactly, and what's in it for them? Something is missing from this equation. We are meeting tonight to discuss the details of the study. I will keep all posted and I am sure I will need some help with things, as I am not biblically knowledgable. To me, that's an even bigger indication that you shouldn't be going to this bible study. Even if there were some way of "winning" this fight (and I don't believe there is, not for you, them or your wife), you don't have the tools to engage. You can't get them here. It takes years of study to be able to debate (and that's what we're talking about, actually) any serious biblical scholar - even the home-grown fundamentalist variety. You're better off doing what I suggested: focus on courtship. If there is more to this story than you've shared, now would be a good time to turn on the light. Otherwise, we can't really help you very much. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Rob..thanks for your post, definitely food for thought. Sometimes it is difficult to accurately describe my situation via the written word, and I apologize for the confusion. I suppose during the course of this my emotions have varied, and when I have sat down to write at this forum, I have been frustrated, and the tone has been one of an attack nature. That is not the reality. What frustrates me is the tone that is used towards me, a condescending, patronizing and superior one that really sets me off sometimes. My goal in getting into this study was not to debate, but to present information to these people that may get them to look deeper into their belief system, and help them understand why people like me don't agree with them...and maybe they can live and let live and quit the witnessing to me. As far as what will this do to make my relationship with my wife better...it may not. But at this point in my dealings with her fundamentalism, I have shifted to what it will do for me, my health and well being. It has been about her for a long time. I am not giving up on countering her witnessing with love and romance. I do that the majority of the time. That said, I do not now remain quiet when someone asks my opinion on where I stand on a spiritual issue. Attack and debate maybe too strong of words to describe my communication with these believers. But having gone thru this yourself, Rob, I assume you understand that when one presents an opinion to believers, it never stops there. They usually press you to further discussion defending yourself. You are right in stating it may be fruitless to discuss these things with fundamentalists whom have studied for years. But, Bart Ehrman has done the work for me, providing a concise, footnoted and researched reference to use as I see fit. Am I doing this for them or myself? I have asked myself that question on numerous occasions. Maybe for both our sakes.....but I am inclined to think it may be for me. Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Centaura, I've been following this thread. I want to commend you on your civility, fortitude, insight, and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Who can say if Centauro's actions will bear fruit, but whatever actions he take will be better than doing nothing at all. Dissonance is what destroys faith, and Centuaro is a walking dissonance. The mere existence of someone who disagrees with the mob can cause confusion amongst them. It is rarely visible, but I have seen it time and time again. It is true that some see disagreement and dig their trenches faster, and this is bad if they are a danger to themselves or others, but to assume that one could have lulled them over with a softer song is fallacious. We don't know what will reach any particular person, so no method can be automatically discounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderer Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Before I commit to an action, I believe in analyzing the situation, setting goals, developing an overall strategy for accomplishing those goals, and defining tactics that support that strategy. Maybe it's the gamer in me, or the military side of my nature. I have nothing against debating or "stirring" fundamentalists up, and I have nothing against acting for purely self-centered reasons. I know from my own experiences that it can be very therapeutic to spar with fundamentalists, and I know that it is difficult to know yourself well enough to be unambiguous in your motives for doing anything. I don't agree, however, that doing something is better than doing nothing. Without a clear picture of the situation - especially of one's own state of mind and heart - it's impossible to develop goals, strategies or tactics that have a reasonable chance for success, and doing nothing is the proper decision to make until the picture gets focused. The alternative is to commit random acts that do nothing but feed into the vicious cycle that causes so much pointless strife in this world we live in, where action begets reaction, and adrenalin begets fight or flight as emotions escalate. I believe doing nothing can sometimes be the most powerful choice - especially if you have conflicted feelings about what it is you're thinking of doing. Just my take on it, for what it's worth. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrydingo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I don't know if this has been posted yet but I use this site as a great resource. Christopher Hitchens pitched for it: http://www.reasonproject.org/scripture_project/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight-mindwanderings Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I think I get a bit of what Centauro wants out of the bible study. Its encouraging to get to the point where you can discuss your beliefs with those who disagree with you. How will they react? How will you react? Its hard to say until you try it. I want to try it sometime, but have not yet had the opportunity. I think he has the right to do so, even if it is just for his own benefit. Its really hard to hide a part of yourself for so long, it just needs to be let out. I think your wife should be able to handle it, and after all, she wants to discuss it too no? It can be difficult if one side of the relationship is accepting and accommodating but the other side is not. It goes both ways, and she won't be able to accept his views until she understands them. My mother in law is a Christian and my father in law is a self proclaimed heathen. They get along well because she can go to her bible study, sunday school and church every week and not feel worried or threatened by his staying home. None of her children go to church either. She is a much more liberal christian than most, but still it is possible for someone to keep all the emotional religious devotion and accept loved ones that believe differently. Being accepted for exactly who I am is very important to me in my marriage and I would work (fight?) for it if it wasn't completely fulfilled. That 5% may be small, but it burns after a while. I think you can do it. Best of luck sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Having read Centauro's other thread, I think I can understand why he's doing this a little bit. I can see how it can be frustrating if your wife gets to express her beliefs all the time but she shuts down any discussion if you want to express your opinion. I'm not an expert on marriage as I've never been married, so I don't have any advice to offer on this, but if this is the issue, perhaps you should try to focus on this issue of having an equal opportunity to express yourself to her instead of getting into this debate with a bunch of other unrelated people? I think you should have the right to express your opinion, but at the same time I can tell you from personal experience of having gone to bible studies almost my whole life at my parents' church, even under the guise as a Christian, if you're going in this expecting to change anyone's minds, it's going to end up being frustrating in the end. Fundamentalists may believe they care about facts and evidence, but in reality, most of them really only care about emotions and feelings. Contrary to what they may believe, these groups are not about arriving at the truth or discovering what the facts about the bible are. They're about encouraging each others' beliefs and regenerating their faith. One of the elders at my parents' church pretty much said so once when he said that the reason why Christians meet three times a week at church is to refill their faith and for emotional support. In other words, bible study is secret code for brainwashing cult. Imagine that you're going up against a cult and trying to use reason and logic to save the people from the cult. These Christians may not be as extreme as a hardcore cult, but that's basically the kind of mindset you're going up against. Even when they bring up controversial subjects to debate, they aren't bringing it up so that they can learn what the actual truth is. They bring it up so they can teach the flock the "proper" apologetic response to such hearsay. Unless they're already actually open to learning different ideas, they're just going to keep putting up their defenses and resisting anything the "devil" is throwing at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 17, 2009 Author Share Posted October 17, 2009 Thanks for the reference, and thoughts, they have been helpful. The discussion has made me reflect a bit as to why I have entered this study. I suppose there are a number of reasons. But the one that keeps coming to my mind is I want to be honest with myself and be myself with whom I am with. I probably want to see how I truly will be treated by the fundies who are in my life, and stop accommodating everybody. It takes too much energy out of me. I have a feeling Neon is right and things won't change with regards to the effort the fundies will put into looking deeper into their faith, but after this is all over, I can at least say that I have been honest with these people and my wife can use the experience as she sees fit. Who knows, it may shed some light on who she surrounds herself with. I will keep all posted. Thanks for the responses.. Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Update: Wife and I were traveling last weekend and so we could not make the study . My wife was a bit miffed we couldn't make it, as this was an unnecessary weekend outing (my choice ) I decided I wanted to get out of town for the weekend and not rush back to make the study. Wife suggested we listen in the car (she has the whole bible on CD's) so we would not miss out. Well, on the way home from our weekend we listened to chapter 3 in the first book of John. I listened intently and had a question about verses 6-9, especially verse 9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." I innocently asked, as an inerrant literalist, that would be confusing to me because if this is to be interpreted literally, all believers are without sin. I then said that is confusing me because aren't we all born depraved and with sin? And doesn't fundamentalism state we are all sinners and can never achieve a totally sinless life even as believers? She was stumped, and was trying to find cross references to this. She found a couple that were vague and did not answer my question. I listened politely and then went back to my original question...she got very quiet and said it was a good question and terminated the discussion. Nothing was said for quite some time, and it seemed to strike a nerve. She was not upset with me, but seemed introspective about what I said and asked. It surprised me that she didn't come to the defense of the verse with more intensity. I shifted the conversation to something else and we had a wonderful ending to a great weekend. I am hoping to bring this up at the next study, if the opportunity arises, but I am not going to be confrontational. I like the tactic of using the word "confusing" when I see verses that contradict the idea of inerrant literalism. This may have had a slight impact on her literal world, but I am not holding my breath. I do believe that my comments had an effect. I will update as soon as I have more info. Centauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Thanks Phanta...I am sure the confusion approach won't work all the time, but it does have its advantages. I am starting to approach this from a literal standpoint with everything I am biblically presented and when something is inconsistent with doctrine I will point it out. This would seem to work better than picking verses and having them defend them with the usual apologetics......at least for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I've found that just because they don't have immediate answers is no proof that they won't come up with answers. And the answers they come up with will be just as dogmatically "true" as anything they had preached and believed before. It will just become another part of the mumbo-jumbo. That has been my experience when I thought I had finally found a real hole in the armor. It seems what they need is time to "pray and meditate," and for the "Holy Spirit" to get back to them. Another way to put it is that the human imagination is rich enough to fill in the hole with something that is consistent with the existing doctrines. But it takes time for this to take place; it cannot always happen on the spur of the moment when confronted by the skeptic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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