Satan's Timeline

[JPA]

I have always wondered about the timeline of the Satan. I have looked him up and found several references to him. The first time we see him is as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The last time is as the Great Red Dragon of Revelation. But really there isn't a great deal of information on him. I read the passage in Isaiah 14, but when read in context it would seem he is talking about a very real king on earth who is defeated. But I know many Xians who say that Lucifer is Satan. This is the only place in the bible that the word Lucifer is used, but it has become synominous with Satan. Xians talk about the fall of Satan, but when does that happen? Is it before the creation of man, because he is there in the Garden. And is he allowed back into heaven once he is cast out, because we see him there in Job and Zachariah standing with the Lord. But in Revelation he is cast out with a third of the angels who fall with him. So if he doesn't get cast out with his demons until the end of the world how do Xians explain their demons being on earth today when they haven't yet rebelled.

 

Anyway if anyone could help me to better understand a absic timeline of when he was created and when he fell, that would be great.

[Dhampir]

Considering that Lucifer is a Latin word, with a rough translation of "Morning Star" (which is a title conferred on Jesus as well), and can't possibly have appeared in the original Hebrew, it makes sense that that verse isn't talking about Satan, who in the Old Testament is referred to as...Satan. Clearly, Satan hadn't fallen by the time of Job, as he was able to freely come and go from Heaven. Doesn't seem consistent with a fallen right hand man. Of course, since the book of Job is probably plagiarized from a similar older work, if you take that out, a lot more things make sense. Then again, Genesis is probably heavily plagiarized, and other books probably have origins other than we've been told.

 

Taking Genesis into account, there is no evidence that the "snake" was Satan. Damn near every culture has a story equating snakes with negative things. Cuz' snakes iz' slimy (but not really). What the snake did would be consistent with Satan's job as god's prosecutor (and by his very name, which means "Adversary"), but again, there's no evidence whatsoever, anywhere in the OT, that they are the same. If you notice, Satan's role as a deceiver doesn't seem to make him an "enemy" till the New Testament. Whereas in Job, Satan's job was to test the loyalty and faith of God's people, in the NT, he's actively out to subvert God's plans.

 

It occurs to me that it might not always have been that way, that Satan's temptation of Jesus might have been done in the same "testing" capacity as in the OT. Revelation makes him the full-on Devil, a title not given to Satan anywhere in the OT, the fallen one, the Enemy of the World, the dragon, the snake, etc. From Revelation, it would seem that Christian Theology reverse-engineered, or perhaps retrofitted Satan with all the tools and appearance, and actions of The Devil. Such that the Genesis snake became Satan, and Satan became The Devil, and the Devil, whose fall is only chronicled by a book that speaks of what is to come, fell some time before God created humans.

 

I was once told that Satan's fall happened in the form of the Meteor that took out the Dinosaurs.

[Dhampir]

I was once told that Satan's fall happened in the form of the Meteor that took out the Dinosaurs.

 

Now that's awesome!

 

Phanta

 

I was also told by someone else, that Satan's fall happened just recently, and took the form of the meteors that struck Jupiter . His contention for this is the fact that the impact to Jupiter was so great that it's rotation was reversed.

[JPA]

So how then, did Lucifer evolve into Satan? I dont see any biblical reason why you would make that connection. And was he evil from the beginning or just a tool in the hand of a sick god that liked to torment his people, ie Job? And again, where did demons come from if Satan and his third of the angels dont revolt until the end of time? I would love to hear a Xians answer to any of this.

[Dhampir]

So how then, did Lucifer evolve into Satan? I dont see any biblical reason why you would make that connection. And was he evil from the beginning or just a tool in the hand of a sick god that liked to torment his people, ie Job? And again, where did demons come from if Satan and his third of the angels dont revolt until the end of time? I would love to hear a Xians answer to any of this.

 

The only place I can find Lucifer in the bible is the Isaiah reference. My guess is that someone saw fit to draw a connection between Lucifer (which again could not have appeared in the original hebrew) and Satan, and since Satan became The Devil, then the three became the same being. Of course, if you're looking for the Christian response, I imagine it'll be a lot different than that.

[Thurisaz]

I was also told by someone else, that Satan's fall happened just recently, and took the form of the meteors that struck Jupiter . His contention for this is the fact that the impact to Jupiter was so great that it's rotation was reversed.

 

*tries to get back up on his chair while desperately gasping for air after the hysterical fit of laughter*

 

*feels it beginning all over again*

 

 

 

Rotation reversed. Jupiter's rotation reversed!!!

 

:lmao: :lmao:

 

*THUD*

[centauri]

I have always wondered about the timeline of the Satan. I have looked him up and found several references to him. The first time we see him is as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The last time is as the Great Red Dragon of Revelation. But really there isn't a great deal of information on him. I read the passage in Isaiah 14, but when read in context it would seem he is talking about a very real king on earth who is defeated. But I know many Xians who say that Lucifer is Satan. This is the only place in the bible that the word Lucifer is used, but it has become synominous with Satan. Xians talk about the fall of Satan, but when does that happen? Is it before the creation of man, because he is there in the Garden. And is he allowed back into heaven once he is cast out, because we see him there in Job and Zachariah standing with the Lord. But in Revelation he is cast out with a third of the angels who fall with him. So if he doesn't get cast out with his demons until the end of the world how do Xians explain their demons being on earth today when they haven't yet rebelled.

 

Anyway if anyone could help me to better understand a absic timeline of when he was created and when he fell, that would be great.

Here's a Jewish perspective on Satan...not a fallen angel and not the "Devil".

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html

 

"Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism out of which it was born, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish faith and the words of the Jewish scriptures."

 

If Christians could evolve God into a Trinity, they can evolve Satan into the Devil.

[JPA]

Thank you for the link Centuri. That answers the question but opens a whole new can of worms about god creating evil. WOW. A new weapon to add to my arsenal. Again thank you. Still wondering where demons came from though.

[centauri]

Still wondering where demons came from though.

It may involve a melding of concepts over time.

These are from my notes on Satan, where fallen angels are mentioned in Jude:

 

In the New Testament Book of Jude, the author makes claims that cannot be validated by the Old Testament.

 

Jude 1:6

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

Another example:

Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

There is no such story in the Old Testament.

 

And finally,

Jude 1:14-15

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

There is no such prophecy that exists in the Bible.

 

This prophecy is said to be found in the Book of Enoch-(1 Enoch 1:9).

Jude 1:6 may have also been drawn from the Book of Enoch.

However, the Book of Enoch isn't in the Bible because it was rejected and is not considered canon.

The New Testament is making a claim that uses non-canonical scripture.

Jude 1:9 may have been drawn from a writing known as the Ascension/Assumption of Moses, which is sometimes called the Testament of Moses which is also non-canonical.

[JPA]

I had forgotten about hat passage, but if I remeber right that passage in Enoch was about the Nephlim in the Noah story. They were the Sons of God that had sex with the daughters of men. Thus creating the giants. Although they should have been wiped out in the flood they do show up later. These were physical creatures though and not the kind of demans the church talks about today.

[Dagan]

The Jews really liked the book of Enoch, copies were found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) and I think Jesus quoted from it. It was like a popular fiction for the time. It also could have adapted some ideas from Greek pagan religion, which the Jews had been exposed to for several hundred years.

 

I'm also confident the pantheon of angels and demons was adapted from Persian Zoroastrianism while the Jews were in exile in Babylon. The books of the Old Testament written before this period differ significantly from those afterwards. Satan first shows up once they get back from Babylon, for example.

 

Jesus really popularized Satan. The Jews were never much into it. They blamed demons for medical and mental illnesses, but that's because people 2000 years ago were superstitious idiots. Oh wait, people still believe that? Let me rephrase. People are superstitious idiots.

[Freddy]

I was once told that Satan's fall happened in the form of the Meteor that took out the Dinosaurs.

 

Now that's awesome!

 

Phanta

 

I was also told by someone else, that Satan's fall happened just recently, and took the form of the meteors that struck Jupiter . His contention for this is the fact that the impact to Jupiter was so great that it's rotation was reversed.

 

 

Well...shit......that's so good! I'm going back to Christianity! :-) Freddy

[Guest Eric the Divine]

Garden of Eden : Serpent of the northern sky, noted by it's hiss sound. Snakes are generally considered deceptive in the cultural context, snake is still a similar insult in the middle east. Hence 'The Deceiver'

 

Satan (Old Testament) : Accuser/prosecutor. In OT times there was no such position as a court prosecutor, the victim or their representative was the accuser. The judge was usually whoever was already in authority in the matter (The Lord would be 'greatest authority'). The judge basically ran every aspect of the court as they saw fit, many cases were brought before kings of Israel or Judea. Satan simply means accuser and seems to hold a position like that of a prosecutor or District Attorney, bringing cases against various people to God. This is used throughout the OT in many books and covers most references attributed to Satan.

 

Satan (New Testament) : Opposer. The Greek word does have a close connection the Hebrew accuser, but NT authors don't seem to understand the cultural context of the OT Satan. For instance Jesus seems to be talking about the guy opposing a reawakening of the Jewish spirituality and the bringing about of a new spiritual kingdom. Possibly Rome. I think it makes sense that Romans would have understood these ideas differently and confused the character in their versions of gospels.

 

Lucifer : Lucifer is a Roman god associate with Venus and the morning star. His name means bringer of light, he was commonly associated with Jesus by the more pagan elements of early catholicism. Isiah mentions Hillel and also tyrannous, a Babylonian god who also is associated with the morning (and also evening) aspects of Venuses orbit. Initially the passage that now is taken to tell of Satan's fall told of Christs ascent... beyond that it's really complex. Hellel was a famous Jewish teacher.

 

Well the passage with the dragon in revelations also refers to a serpent, so does the reference to a leviathan (the fire breathing monster God brags about in Job). The leviathan further connections are made between the leviathan and Metatron. Metatron is the head angel of the Tree of Life and the ruler of Kether, the sphere of Heaven. (Host of hosts?)

 

Various theologians connected these various characters and pieces together along with pre existing pagan mythologies about the fall of angels, the lesser Gods in Genesis who slept with human women, and Satan in the Old and New Testament. Usually doing this without a good understanding of Jewish culture and with Roman pagan ideas in mind. One bishop in particular got Lucifer established as the name of the Devil and put the whole mess together. A rival bishop of his just happened to be named 'Lucifer' after Jesus, the bringer of light to the world.

 

A theological argument could be made that Jesus was the son of Lucifer/Metatron/demonised angel friend of light, come to protect us from the wrath of the big nasty baby Yaweh, just like Horus...

 

Gnostic's did teach that, in fact hundreds of years later the Cathars were still being killed for beliefs like that. Many still worship Lucifer as a bringer of light, knowledge, understanding, comfort, logic, ect. To these people Lucifer has more in common with Jesus and NT teachings then God does.

 

Later Satan, characterized as a form of Baal, Beelzebub - Lord of Flies was associated Baphomet. Baphomet was thought to be the faceless or headless divinity of gnosticism. This spiritual divinity did not interact with the lower realm in which we live, and was in opposition to the Demiurge or creator devil (Yaweh). Baphomet was connected to Muhammad, possibly derived from.

 

So now kids learn in Sunday school that the snake in the garden of Eden is Lucifer, who fell from grace, and all the angels who followed him are now demons, and that he wants you to do bad things and go to Hell for them. I'm probably missing some important stuff from like 1200-1300 to now. Also this is an overview, I saw a few things mentioned earlier in the thread that I didn't put anything about. The books of Enoch and Jude as mentioned, and many others, had a lot to do with a preexisting ideas of a fall from grace in NT times. The stuff I just put is hopefully either enough to either sate or spark your curiosity. I'm not a historian or theologian really.

[Saviourmachine]

Satan has also his Father of course. Just like Jesus.

 

 

 

The Father of Satan, you don't want to meet him in an alley....!

[Snakefoot]

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. --Luke 10:18

 

A thumbnail of the "Satan killed the dinosaurs" bit goes like this:

 

- There is a huge time gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

- Gawd first (Genesis1:1) made Earth inhabited by dinosaurs.

- When he cast Lucifer/Satan out of heaven, he cast him to Earth.

- Satan was pissed, so he destroyed Earth in a temper tantrum. (This is consistent with the dinosaurs/asteroid hypothesis.)

- The result was what is described in Genesis 1:2 --"without form and void."

- Gawd re-made Earth from the original.

 

Based on this explanation, Satan predates Man by at least 90 million years.

[qadeshet]

So how then, did Lucifer evolve into Satan?

 

This is one of the best articles I've read on the subject.

Satan: The Lies, the Myths, the Human Tragedy!

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Are we talking just the christian satan? From what I understand, the Jews still see Satan as the good angel of god who is send by YHWH to tempt people to see if they will give in to sin.

 

The christian satan is just a abrahamization of the persian Ahriman (well at least the bad parts), the other parts seem like everything that is human and non-authoritarian. Maybe he originated as a means to control converts to christianity?

[Dagan]

One problem is the Protestant Christian bible (with which most of us are familiar) assumes there's this gap in writing between Malachi and the New Testament, like God suddenly went silent for 400 years.

 

But there isn't a gap. There's good reason to believe that some of the books of the bible were written during that 400-year "gap" (Daniel is one example) and there are lots of other non-canonical books and writings floating around that support the theory that when the Jews came back from Babylon, they brought back a religion changed by their exposure to Persian Zoroastrianism.

 

It is often said that the figure of Satan, prince of Evil, was inspired by Zoroastrian teachings about Ahriman, the adversary of Ahura Mazda. But the Jewish idea of the "Adversary" (which is what "satan" means) is not quite like the Zoroastrian Ahriman. In the post-exilic Book of Job, Satan is an adversary, but he is also God's loyal servant, doing God's work by testing a righteous man. Some of the early Talmudic rabbis identified the "evil impulse" with Satan, but that idea was not completely accepted. Indeed, the features of Judaism that are most indebted to Zoroastrianism, such as angels, devils, Heaven and Hell, and eschatology, tended to fade among believers in later centuries, and they are no longer emphasized in the Jewish mainstream, though they continue to hold sway among Jewish sects such as the Hasidim.

 

It is in Christianity that the doctrine of the Devil is almost identical to the Zoroastrian concept. The Devil, or Satan, is a being who CHOSE to be evil, through pride, just as Zarathushtra's evil spirit chose to do evil; and this devil, as Christians believe, not only roams about attempting to corrupt people, but has corrupted the physical world as well, just as Ahriman does in the later Zoroastrian teachings.

 

Christianity also adopted Jewish - and Zoroastrian - apocalyptic myths about cosmic battles and the upcoming end of the world into its own doctrine. The Christian book of Revelation, the last book in the New Testament canon, is a later example of a form that goes back all the way through its Jewish sources to the distant, ancient worlds of Iran and Mesopotamia.

 

Full article can be found here.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

One problem is the Protestant Christian bible (with which most of us are familiar) assumes there's this gap in writing between Malachi and the New Testament, like God suddenly went silent for 400 years.

An even bigger problem is that he didn't go silent, the entire bible was written in Maccabean and Hellenistic times. The proof is written in the bible itself, words like Ur of the Chaldees (in other words, when the chaldeans ruled Ur), and the armor of Goliath (hellenistic armor) are all obviously written about a generation or 2 before Messiahs started to appear.

 

But there isn't a gap. There's good reason to believe that some of the books of the bible were written during that 400-year "gap" (Daniel is one example) and there are lots of other non-canonical books and writings floating around that support the theory that when the Jews came back from Babylon, they brought back a religion changed by their exposure to Persian Zoroastrianism.

All of the books, have persian influences. Look at the Garden of Eden, it had Assyro-babylonian, Egyptian, Persian and hellenistic influences in it. The entire Bible is like a rehash of influences from their original religion (from Canaan), Phoenicia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Persia. It's not just the later books, its all of them.

[Shyone]

 

All of the books, have persian influences. Look at the Garden of Eden, it had Assyro-babylonian, Egyptian, Persian and hellenistic influences in it. The entire Bible is like a rehash of influences from their original religion (from Canaan), Phoenicia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Persia. It's not just the later books, its all of them.

Exactly.

 

And in many cases, the influences are reproduced almost word for word in the Bible (esp. Sumerian myths, code of Hammurabi, babylonian wisdom literature).

 

That was one of the keys that led me to question exactly how "we" knew gods existed. If gods were invented by primative people worshipping false ones, and they used the same language, reasoning, powers, etc., then either all gods were true, or no gods were true.

 

Guess which side I came down on.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

If gods were invented by primative people worshipping false ones, and they used the same language, reasoning, powers, etc., then either all gods were true, or no gods were true.

 

Guess which side I came down on.

Lemme guess, No gods were true?

[Shyone]

If gods were invented by primative people worshipping false ones, and they used the same language, reasoning, powers, etc., then either all gods were true, or no gods were true.

 

Guess which side I came down on.

Lemme guess, No gods were true?

Bingo. And I can't understand why more Christians don't come down on that side too. It seems to straightforward.

 

Well, after years of study, contemplation, investigation, corroboration, reading, consolodation, synthesis and sweat.

[NotBlinded]

If gods were invented by primative people worshipping false ones, and they used the same language, reasoning, powers, etc., then either all gods were true, or no gods were true.

 

Guess which side I came down on.

Lemme guess, No gods were true?

Bingo. And I can't understand why more Christians don't come down on that side too. It seems to straightforward.

 

Well, after years of study, contemplation, investigation, corroboration, reading, consolodation, synthesis and sweat.

Where's my baby and the bathwater pic.........

 

 

 

Just teasing!

[TonyViner]

I don't know if anyone is still paying attention here, but here are some places you may want to check out. There is a video on YouTube called "Lost Worlds: The History of the Devil." There are also a couple of books I have come across that should be helpful. One is called "Satan: A Biography" written by Henry Ansgar Kelly, an another called "The Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels.

[dyanaprajna0]

I have always wondered about the timeline of the Satan. I have looked him up and found several references to him. The first time we see him is as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The last time is as the Great Red Dragon of Revelation. But really there isn't a great deal of information on him. I read the passage in Isaiah 14, but when read in context it would seem he is talking about a very real king on earth who is defeated. But I know many Xians who say that Lucifer is Satan. This is the only place in the bible that the word Lucifer is used, but it has become synominous with Satan. Xians talk about the fall of Satan, but when does that happen? Is it before the creation of man, because he is there in the Garden. And is he allowed back into heaven once he is cast out, because we see him there in Job and Zachariah standing with the Lord. But in Revelation he is cast out with a third of the angels who fall with him. So if he doesn't get cast out with his demons until the end of the world how do Xians explain their demons being on earth today when they haven't yet rebelled.

 

Anyway if anyone could help me to better understand a absic timeline of when he was created and when he fell, that would be great.

 

Satan is mentioned sparsely in the Old Testament. One thing to notice, is that Satan, as a fallen angel, and others with him, has no real value in the Old Testament. Satan was just another one of God's angels. The Old Testament view of angels, is that some performed seemingly benevolent purposes, while other's performed seemingly malevolent purposes, but they were all still angels. We don't see the concept of Satan and demons as purely evil, fallen angels until the New Testament. This is probably due to influence of Zoroastrianism, which did hold to such concepts. Now, as for the word 'lucifer'. It's a Latin word which means 'morning star', in other words, the planet Venus. It's actually used twice in the Latin Vulgate, once in Isaiah 14, and the other in Revelation. I don't have the reference handy, but it's in either chapter 21 or 22. In Isaiah, the topic is the king of Babylon, which xtians will say is a metaphor for Satan. I don't see any value or truth to this interpretation. The other, in Revelation, is talking about Jesus. So, nowhere in the Bible is Satan referred to as Lucifer. As far as the rebellion, and when it occurred, there's no way to tell from the Bible itself. The only mention is in one of the Gospels (Luke, if I'm not mistaken), where Jesus sends the disciples out on a missions task, and they come back, telling him that they performed miracles. Jesus said that he beheld Satan fall like lightening from heaven. This is the closest thing I can come to find in the Bible that even comes close to resembling any type of Satan falling from heaven. Hope this helped.