flesh4fantasy Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ppp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The bible is silent on the issue of abortion. Therefore they don't have to consider any bible passages as wrong to take such a stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jin Kisaragi Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Most Xians who are pro-choice are actually against it, but don't force their morality on others. Opposition to abortion is based on a basic biblical principle of do not murder, and has been the standard since the early days. (Directly referenced in the Didache) Abortion is also on the "indulgences" menu. So I'm guessing the total ban was before indulgence days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Most Xians who are pro-choice are actually against it, but don't force their morality on others. Opposition to abortion is based on a basic biblical principle of do not murder, and has been the standard since the early days. (Directly referenced in the Didache) Abortion is also on the "indulgences" menu. So I'm guessing the total ban was before indulgence days. That strikes me as slightly disingenuous. Perhaps no one is "for" abortion, but that doesn't mean that the right to have one trumps ancient or modern ideas of zygoticide. Pro Choice means just that. The people are saying that the right to choose belongs to the woman, not the state or religion. That is not the same as saying they are "pro abortion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Let me be clear. I think abortion should remain legal. However I also believe we exercise influence over ourselves by means, such as social means, rather than by law alone. I think women should legally have maximum control over their reproductive futures. Simultaneously I believe all men and women should bear the natural responsibility that freedom entails. Many of us believe that the conception of our descendants entails a natural responsibility to maintain and care for them in their immaturity. And I believe most of us rightly avoid behavior whose consequence is undue toil and inconvenience. Thus I believe that many women wisely use means to avoid conception altogether. But when conception has occurred by oversight and the consequence we avoid is a natural responsibility then we may feel relieved but I think we should also feel some degree of shame or remorse. And if we can’t see the reasons why, in these cases, we should at least pretend to feel these things then I think our neighbors may justly say that our behavior is skewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jin Kisaragi Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Most Xians who are pro-choice are actually against it, but don't force their morality on others. Opposition to abortion is based on a basic biblical principle of do not murder, and has been the standard since the early days. (Directly referenced in the Didache) Abortion is also on the "indulgences" menu. So I'm guessing the total ban was before indulgence days. That strikes me as slightly disingenuous. Perhaps no one is "for" abortion, but that doesn't mean that the right to have one trumps ancient or modern ideas of zygoticide. Pro Choice means just that. The people are saying that the right to choose belongs to the woman, not the state or religion. That is not the same as saying they are "pro abortion." Not so much the when, but yeah. They would never do it themselves, but wouldn't hinder another person's choice in the matter. There are pro-abortionists, but in the same sense that there are people who vomit purposely and get off on eating it. These days it's used as a buzz word (same as anti-choice, it's a separation of focus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOBAfunky Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 The bible is silent on the issue of abortion. Therefore they don't have to consider any bible passages as wrong to take such a stance. Maybe not directly, but OT Jewish law prescribed a monetary fine for causing a woman to miscarry vs. the death penalty for murder. And often Children under one month were not counted at all. Also god sometimes commanded abortions when he wasn't causing them himself, but you could say the same thing about murder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenTree Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The issue of abortion is one of several reasons why I'm not as hard on liberal Christians as I am on fundies. Though liberal Christians are misguided when it comes to ideas about God, naturalism, etc., they tend to have their heads screwed on a lot straighter when it comes to society issues. They "get" that nobody should ever have authority over a person's body. They "get" that neither the state nor the church has any right to tell consenting adults what to do in the privacy of their own home. Etc., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultifariousBirdLady Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 The bible is silent on the issue of abortion. Therefore they don't have to consider any bible passages as wrong to take such a stance. Maybe not directly, but OT Jewish law prescribed a monetary fine for causing a woman to miscarry vs. the death penalty for murder. And often Children under one month were not counted at all. Also god sometimes commanded abortions when he wasn't causing them himself, but you could say the same thing about murder... Yes, and this is one of the things I pointed out back when I was a pro-choice Christian. (And mind you, the fine was "whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows." What the woman wanted didn't seem to matter, though presumably the woman may have conferred with her husband about the fine.) The other things I used to point out have been said by others on here already, i.e. along the lines of what Legion said, I would also say that we had a moral obligation to use birth control to prevent unintended pregnancies in the first place, and most importantly, along the lines of what Shyone said, "pro-choice" means that the pregnant woman is the one who should have the right to choose... what I or anybody else thinks about that choice is irrelevant. Being a pro-choice Christian did in fact get me into trouble with some of the other people I was with... one time really big trouble. But this was one issue that seemed so clear to me, I just could not in good conscience accept the typical pro-life stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Does the bible even say at what point the soul enters the fetus? I've asked pro-life Christians this before and I've never gotten an answer from them. They just kept screaming about how it was murder to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Neon, That is where it really gets interesting.. Most apologists I know say that the soul comes to the child at the "age of accountability", and therefore before this age, god keeps their soul in a safe in heaven. This explains their belief that when a baby dies it goes or stays in heaven and everybody feels good. However this brings with it a paradox, if one aborts a baby, you're sure it goes to live with jeebus, if you don't, it might end up in hell down the line.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TRHood Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 The issue of abortion is one of several reasons why I'm not as hard on liberal Christians as I am on fundies. Though liberal Christians are misguided when it comes to ideas about God, naturalism, etc., they tend to have their heads screwed on a lot straighter when it comes to society issues. They "get" that nobody should ever have authority over a person's body. They "get" that neither the state nor the church has any right to tell consenting adults what to do in the privacy of their own home. Etc., etc. A deeper issue here is when a baby becomes a "person." If you think that at conception you have a human being, then in a way aborting a child is having authority over his or her body. Then it should be against the law to have an abortion unless the mother's life is threatened. Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to have to decide on when life begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultifariousBirdLady Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 A deeper issue here is when a baby becomes a "person." If you think that at conception you have a human being, then in a way aborting a child is having authority over his or her body. Then it should be against the law to have an abortion unless the mother's life is threatened. Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to have to decide on when life begins. "Life" is not the issue, the way I see it, and fetuses do have "life" without (IMO) "personhood." They are different things. Just because something is "alive" doesn't mean it should be given the same rights as conscious adult people. The issue to me is: Who gets to decide what values and ideals are used to weigh one choice against another in what is usually a very trying situation. This issue is intimately bound up with religious (or non-religious) beliefs and ethical values as well as the specific set of circumstances involved with each pregnancy. I don't know of anybody else who should have the right to evaluate all of those things and make a decision other than the person most intimately involved and affected: the pregnant woman. Because this issue is so directly tied to beliefs and ethics I would even argue that freedom of choice is linked with religious freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Also, once abortion is made illegal,what sort of criminal punishment would you hope to see for the mother? I assume they'd have her charged with murder if they call it murdering an unborn baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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