Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I have been reading lately on the human brain and it's functions specifically compared to other animals. From the interneurons of humans to the frontal lobe activities, to the myelin substance found formed around the adult brain in contrast to a teenage brain. Also, these physical functions in relation to our psychological processes. Experience in life contribute to brain development and directs the specifics of function in the physical sense and in the overall makeup of the individual human. Genetics are the materials from what I gathered, but the complex array of brain activity from experience is the form of what we use the materials to develop individuality. Specifically, this particular grouping of the brain's "emergence" of division in the M1area of the brain into evolution is what baffles me. What evidence do we really have that the functionality and animation of the human framework stemmed from another primate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I have been reading lately on the human brain and it's functions specifically compared to other animals. From the interneurons of humans to the frontal lobe activities, to the myelin substance found formed around the adult brain in contrast to a teenage brain. Also, these physical functions in relation to our psychological processes. Experience in life contribute to brain development and directs the specifics of function in the physical sense and in the overall makeup of the individual human. Genetics are the materials from what I gathered, but the complex array of brain activity from experience is the form of what we use the materials to develop individuality. Specifically, this particular grouping of the brain's "emergence" into evolution is what baffles me. What evidence do we really have that the functionality and animation of the human framework stemmed from another primate? You really should be kidding. Really. Wow, where to start. Like neuroanatomy, function, genetics. Well, The embryology and anatomy of the ape brain and human brain are almost identical. The major difference is the size of the cortex, but the underlying structures reveal an hereditary pattern that goes back to even more primative life forms. There is a stepwise progression from a neural tube, to a crude base of a brain, to a midbrain to a cortex. It isn't linear by any means, and function doesn't always parallel anatomy or size. There isn't enough space or time to put the total progression of the nervous system from worm to human, but take a look at various ape and human brain structure and see if you can see any similarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Specifically, this particular grouping of the brain's "emergence" of division in the M1area of the brain into evolution is what baffles me. What evidence do we really have that the functionality and animation of the human framework stemmed from another primate? Abiyoyo! Still kicking around huh? Good to see your posts. With the brain, I think we see when compared even to other mammals, reptiles, and fish that the human brain incorporates ancient morphology and organization. I think our own passionate emotions are evidence of our ancient heritage. Why would we exclude the organ which is the brain from being subject to evolutionary forces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Scientists study the brains of Bonobos (our closest primate relative) specifically because it is so similar to our own brains. The evidence of a common ancestor is overwhelmingly strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Complexity arising from simpler forms via DNA mutation and natural selection over time is an accepted scientific principle. Carl Sagan's "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" is an excellent study of evolutionary principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 yadda, yadda, yadda. you know nothing about evolution. buy some science books and study then you might learn something. how can evolution NOT be true? It is closer to the truth than the pipe dream of Jesus, god and heaven and hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 There isn't enough space or time to put the total progression of the nervous system from worm to human, but take a look at various ape and human brain structure and see if you can see any similarity. Shyone, I was fairly interested in what you were saying up until this. Really? Just looking at it, heh? Then why aren't the passive apes just as humans? Why haven't their genetics branched into civilization on a human level? What is it about these apes, in your graph, that made them different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Abiyoyo! Still kicking around huh? Good to see your posts. With the brain, I think we see when compared even to other mammals, reptiles, and fish that the human brain incorporates ancient morphology and organization. I think our own passionate emotions are evidence of our ancient heritage. Why would we exclude the organ which is the brain from being subject to evolutionary forces? Legion! Good to see you around to buddy. My premise of this topic is not that I deny the evolution of man, or of the brain and it's functions; but the 'guess' that the vital specifics of the brain function and neurological state of humans just came to be out of nowhere. Example, the part of the brain that enables humans more advancement as in our fingers, or the part of the brain that responds comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Scientists study the brains of Bonobos (our closest primate relative) specifically because it is so similar to our own brains. The evidence of a common ancestor is overwhelmingly strong. Strong, close, but not human as I was saying more in detail to Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Complexity arising from simpler forms via DNA mutation and natural selection over time is an accepted scientific principle. Carl Sagan's "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" is an excellent study of evolutionary principles. Yes, DNA alone from what I have gathered is not the sole reasoning for the human advancement. DNA is the role of evolution, passing a certain grouping of genes from one generation to the next, causing humans to be more tame or carrying certain traits to characterize mankind in groups. But, the animation of humans is the result of a variety of different catalyst within the neurological system, that differentiates between human and other mammals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 yadda, yadda, yadda. you know nothing about evolution. buy some science books and study then you might learn something. how can evolution NOT be true? It is closer to the truth than the pipe dream of Jesus, god and heaven and hell. I am not saying evolution isn't true. I do believe we have evolved into what we are today by evolution. It's the premise that we evolved from primates that baffles me. I have been reading and studying, and have read a great deal on the matter. What are your thoughts other than rhetoric? I wanted to add Heretic that the logic of something just 'poof' appearing without any hard evidence, 'hard' evidence; is just the same as believing God poofed everything into being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ... the 'guess' that the vital specifics of the brain function and neurological state of humans just came to be out of nowhere. Example, the part of the brain that enables humans more advancement as in our fingers, or the part of the brain that responds comprehension. Um well, I don’t see that any species evolves from nothing. It evolves from another species. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Scientists study the brains of Bonobos (our closest primate relative) specifically because it is so similar to our own brains. The evidence of a common ancestor is overwhelmingly strong. Humans have the capacity to plan, long in advance, and I think the only other stunner of the primates was the Santino chimp that makes piles of rocks for the next day to throw at people coming into the zoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Um well, I don’t see that any species evolves from nothing. It evolves from another species. Right? I guess what I am saying is that we can change genetics by grouping to have a certain type of a species, and we can also train and use genetics to breed specific animals to obtain specific tasks; but at the end of the day, they are still limited by their neurological makeup within. Primates are said to be the species in which humans evolved from; but If we are within their makeup in all aspects, then Why can't they learn to become as humans. They can push buttons, differentiate between sounds, use tools in a short plan of advancement, but can't go any further than this. People have been researching and testing these primates for almost a century. Why no results? I see it like this. If we are apart of them and genetics separated us from them; then why can't we activate the dormant functions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 We share over 96% of the same DNA as chimps and bonobos. I don't see it as much of a stretch in logic to claim common ancestors. "I see it like this. If we are apart of them and genetics separated us from them; then why can't we activate the dormant functions' They evolved as a seperate species ideally adapted to their enviornment. Humans aren't as good at living in the jungle, Tarzan excepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 We share over 96% of the same DNA as chimps and bonobos. I don't see it as much of a stretch in logic to claim common ancestors. Tell me something par4dcourse. What is the 4% of difference consist of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I am not saying evolution isn't true. I do believe we have evolved into what we are today by evolution. It's the premise that we evolved from primates that baffles me. I have been reading and studying, and have read a great deal on the matter. This is really pathetic. Humans didn't evolve from primates. We are primates. We happen to have a common ancestor. And we have common ancestors to birds, dolphins, whales, trees and bacteria. It's like you're saying that the apparent similarities between apes and humans is pure coincidence. The similarity in DNA is pure coincidence. At one time, there were no mammals. After a long time with mammals, there were no humans or apes, but some 4 legged creatures, and out of 4 legged creatures there are now apes and humans (and the humans look remarkably like apes!). And the reason apes and humans look alike is that they share a great deal of DNA. You asked why apes aren't humans. It's because they are not. They're apes (chimps, bonobos, orangutans, etc). Neanderthals weren't Cromagnons. Unfortunately, the former are all dead, or you would be asking why Neanderthals aren't humans. There is no point discussing anything if you can't put all of the pieces together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I am not saying evolution isn't true. I do believe we have evolved into what we are today by evolution. It's the premise that we evolved from primates that baffles me. I have been reading and studying, and have read a great deal on the matter. First of all, we didn't evolve from primates, but primates and humans evolved from a common pre-human/pre-primate animal. (But I'm sure you know that.) Secondly, for primates (as they exist today) have adopted to the environment and been successful in it, so they never evolved into higher brain functions. My thoughts on this is that the first human-like creatures started to use symbols. Dogs, primates, etc, all use a very primitive form of communication. Dogs wag their tails, or growl, or show teeth, etc, and it's innate and they know what it means when they see it. But at some point the pre-human creature evolved slowly to a little bit more advanced, and started to use more symbols to communicate intent. I'm of the belief that language is the big difference between us and primates. And it led to more development of the frontal lobe and other parts of the brain. The benefit was that we could anticipate danger and even plan attacks on prey. That increased our chances of survival. So how do they know this? I don't think this is known through just studying the brain, but also to see the commonalities and differences between humans and primates in regards to DNA and behavior. Other than that, I'm not sure what would constitute as evidence for the evolution of the brain. Perhaps the fossil records and the size of the skull got something too bring to the table? --edit-- I just saw Shyone's response, and yes, he's right, we are primates. So in my answer above, just replace primates with "apes" or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 We share over 96% of the same DNA as chimps and bonobos. I don't see it as much of a stretch in logic to claim common ancestors. Tell me something par4dcourse. What is the 4% of difference consist of? I edited my post above to include: They evolved as a seperate species ideally adapted to their enviornment. Humans aren't as good at living in the jungle, Tarzan excepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I just saw Shyone's response, and yes, he's right, we are primates. So in my answer above, just replace primates with "apes" or something similar. The most peculiar thing is that I can't really understand what Abiyoyo's problem is. He seems to be saying that if they are like us, then why aren't they US. Why don't they build cities or have elections or make long term plans? On it's face, that kind of question is naive and silly because they aren't human, but he doesn't understand why they didn't evolve in the same way. It's as though every species subjected to the same types of stresses would evolve in the same way, so they should have evolved along with us. The answer, of course, deals with the stresses they had while evolving, and they have in fact evolved (in some cases and some ways more than humans), so they are adapted to their environment. Not every change is "progress" in the sense that we are some ideal goal for evolution. We aren't as strong as apes - they need strength. They aren't as smart as we are - we need intelligence. They have better sight, we have better manners. In time, and I mean a lot of time, apes will evolve, and we may go extinct. What they evolve into may not be what we would expect or hope. They might become 5 toed sloth like creatures, or maybe more like whales. And we may eventually become birds. It all depends on what the environment holds for us as a species - and we may develop multiple lines, or go extinct. Evolution is ongoing, not static. It's just so slow that we cannot always appreciate the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 I am not saying evolution isn't true. I do believe we have evolved into what we are today by evolution. It's the premise that we evolved from primates that baffles me. I have been reading and studying, and have read a great deal on the matter. First of all, we didn't evolve from primates, but primates and humans evolved from a common pre-human/pre-primate animal. (But I'm sure you know that.) Secondly, for primates (as they exist today) have adopted to the environment and been successful in it, so they never evolved into higher brain functions. My thoughts on this is that the first human-like creatures started to use symbols. Dogs, primates, etc, all use a very primitive form of communication. Dogs wag their tails, or growl, or show teeth, etc, and it's innate and they know what it means when they see it. But at some point the pre-human creature evolved slowly to a little bit more advanced, and started to use more symbols to communicate intent. I'm of the belief that language is the big difference between us and primates. And it led to more development of the frontal lobe and other parts of the brain. The benefit was that we could anticipate danger and even plan attacks on prey. That increased our chances of survival. So how do they know this? I don't think this is known through just studying the brain, but also to see the commonalities and differences between humans and primates in regards to DNA and behavior. Other than that, I'm not sure what would constitute as evidence for the evolution of the brain. Perhaps the fossil records and the size of the skull got something too bring to the table? What do you think about the myelin in the brain compared to primates? Do you think this affects their overall intelligence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 There is no point discussing anything if you can't put all of the pieces together. Apes, sorry, not primates. Anyway, I have a good point. Everything that I have studied collides with a common factor and that is the 'unknown' of why a human is a human. So, you say apes are apes, and we are humans. Then it is fair to say equallythat God created humans and apes separately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 I edited my post above to include: They evolved as a seperate species ideally adapted to their enviornment. Humans aren't as good at living in the jungle, Tarzan excepted. Then why haven't they adapted the same as tribal humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 The most peculiar thing is that I can't really understand what Abiyoyo's problem is. He seems to be saying that if they are like us, then why aren't they US. Why don't they build cities or have elections or make long term plans? On it's face, that kind of question is naive and silly because they aren't human, but he doesn't understand why they didn't evolve in the same way. It's as though every species subjected to the same types of stresses would evolve in the same way, so they should have evolved along with us. No, truly, I understand, I don't think you understand what I am saying. Why haven't these apes that have the most similarity in DNA as to humans even developed a language of communications, use that communication to take over a small tribe of humans, or even, yes, to build a 'city' of apes. I say it is because of their neurological makeup, which the reason why we have an advanced makeup is still unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 The most peculiar thing is that I can't really understand what Abiyoyo's problem is. He seems to be saying that if they are like us, then why aren't they US. Why don't they build cities or have elections or make long term plans? On it's face, that kind of question is naive and silly because they aren't human, but he doesn't understand why they didn't evolve in the same way. It's as though every species subjected to the same types of stresses would evolve in the same way, so they should have evolved along with us. No, truly, I understand, I don't think you understand what I am saying. Why haven't these apes that have the most similarity in DNA as to humans even developed a language of communications, use that communication to take over a small tribe of humans, or even, yes, to build a 'city' of apes. I say it is because of their neurological makeup, which the reason why we have an advanced makeup is still unknown. Ok, I'll give this a try, but I'm afraid it may be futile. First, apes have what they need to survive. Their capacities are perfect for them. The stresses (and mutation) that made us different have to do with environment, and competition that was different (and remains different) from the apes. In their environment, they are superior to us as individuals, and that is what you would expect. IOW, they don't need big brains to do what they do where they do it, and more intelligence has not proven to be necessary for their continued existence (assuming some apes are smarter than others). For humans, the strength that other species need has not been a requirement for survival. It's like there are a thousand paths (actually more), and at a point when there were diverging interests and genetic isolation, the species preceding humans and apes split. They stayed in the jungle, we went to the savanna. We needed to walk, they didn't. We needed smarts to outwit our competitors, they needed to climb to outwit theirs. Getting the picture? If the tables had been turned, and every jungle dwelling ancestor to apes had been put in the place of our ancestors immediately after the split and vice versa, then we would be the apes and they would be the humans. Just as if your ancestors had belonged to a tribe whose descendants live in Iran, you would be Muslim. It is your fortune to be 1) human, 2) male, 3) Christian, and 4 living in a western country that speaks English. Thank your ancestors for all of these happenstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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