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Anybody Here From Wheaton College? (Or Other Christian College?)


Major Tom
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Anybody here from Wheaton College? - I graduated class of 1971, prepared to go do missionary work with Evangelical Alliance Mission, but fortunately saw the light just in time. Some members may know that Wheaton is a "Billy Graham Mecca"; their professors teach evangelical fundamentalism, Creationism but do not teach evolution as having basis in fact (Dawkins need not apply for a professorship.).

 

I was indoctrinated in Evangelical Christian Fundamentalism from childhood until graduation from Wheaton in '71. However, the idea of a Creator's damnation of all humanity except for a few "elect" mortified me, therefore instead of becoming a missionary, I joined the armed forces, stayed in 25 years service until retirement as a USN Commander.

 

I give thanks every day that I found truth and logic in the writings of such educated free thinkers as Thomas Paine, Christopher Hitchers, and in Professor Richard Dawkins books, especially The God Delusion, which did much to lead to the regaining of my senses and peace of mind.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618680004

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9002284641446868316

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKcrqvOF0Uc

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I went to Great Lakes Christian College and was a minister for a number of years.

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I almost went there - we had a pastor for a short time who was a professor through Wheaton. I think he's since left (or been asked to leave) but he almost convinced me to go there. I ended up not doing it due to money, and their lack of degree variety (nothing in what I wanted) thank goodness - my undergrad did wonders on getting me exposure to things that I desperately needed.

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However, the idea of a Creator's damnation of all humanity except for a few "elect" mortified me, therefore instead of becoming a missionary, I joined the armed forces, stayed in 25 years service until retirement as a USN Commander.

 

 

 

Just curious, as I don't attain that notion. What parts of the Bible do you base that on? Again, not trying to start a debate or anything, just curious.

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However, the idea of a Creator's damnation of all humanity except for a few "elect" mortified me, therefore instead of becoming a missionary, I joined the armed forces, stayed in 25 years service until retirement as a USN Commander.

 

 

 

Just curious, as I don't attain that notion. What parts of the Bible do you base that on? Again, not trying to start a debate or anything, just curious.

 

 

It's called predestination, something I studied out while still a christian and came to that conclusion as well - that god hand picks those he chooses, there are a number of verses on it, it's not real popular with a lot of lovey-dovey christian denominations, but the bible speaks of it in a variety of areas - a simple check in your concordance will point you in the right direction.

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However, the idea of a Creator's damnation of all humanity except for a few "elect" mortified me, therefore instead of becoming a missionary, I joined the armed forces, stayed in 25 years service until retirement as a USN Commander.

 

 

 

Just curious, as I don't attain that notion. What parts of the Bible do you base that on? Again, not trying to start a debate or anything, just curious.

 

 

It's called predestination, something I studied out while still a christian and came to that conclusion as well - that god hand picks those he chooses, there are a number of verses on it, it's not real popular with a lot of lovey-dovey christian denominations, but the bible speaks of it in a variety of areas - a simple check in your concordance will point you in the right direction.

 

That God picks those that will endure until the end, and they do not have a choice in the matter? Hell is selected, and heaven is selected? That leaves the question of why even send a Jesus into the world to save humanity.

 

Is that what you feel by predestination, selected by God. I agree, though I see it implied in a different aspect.

 

I have always seen the will of God as a constant, revolving around personal faith in God. Like a revolving door. One is apart of the will of God in a good way, then the second is on the other side of that door. But, I see Christ as the revolving part of that door, whereas before it was just a door, open or shut

 

I think through Christ, by faith, we can enter that good will at any point, also, enter the bad will at any point in furthering the total will of God, which would have to include bad and good, in order to fulfill the scripture regarding Christs' return.

 

As far as Heaven or hell though, I believe that is not predestined, I believe it is chosen by the individual. Example, a man is saved, starts working for God, feeding the homeless, helping others, preaching, etc, working in God's good will. Then this man falls short, becomes stagnant, maybe even denies Gods' existence. This person is still apart of God's will, just the other side of that door.

 

The part I say in regard to hell not being predestined is because throughout this individuals life, only God truly knows the mans intent even if he is currently on the bad side of God's will( or what we perceive as the bad side). Some I believe derive a prejudging notion that this man would be destined for Hell, whether it is because of a public pronouncement of denial of God, or be it not going to church, or be it sinful nature. But, the simple fact is that we don't know the inner workings of that person, only God does.

 

I suspect the shock factor to be present at the supper of God. Christ said in the parable that the servant went into the streets because the master of the house's invitations to the supper were rejected. So, saved by faith I believe is the acceptance into Heaven, just as the murderer was saved by faith beside Christ on the cross.

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Yoyo, too bad you had to take this thread off topic and use it as a platform for preaching. Shame on you.

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Guest natafanofkathy

I went to Lincoln Christian College. My de-conversion was a long process, but it really started coming together when I took a class called "non-western religion" I was immediately appalled that it was called "non-western" instead of "eastern religion" I think that is incredibly arrogant

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Yoyo, too bad you had to take this thread off topic and use it as a platform for preaching. Shame on you.

 

Better suited in the Ex-C life section don't you think. As far as the preaching, it was actually my thoughts on what HRD replied by what I was asking MajorTom. The emphasis around the idea of using my 'concordance' was the reason for my expounded post. I think it is funny that people, not even knowing people, say they should use a concordance, and even answer for people. I didn't need to be pointed in the right direction, as I was the one asking the question. This type of response is typical to us "Christian apologists", so I dug a little deeper, and haven't heard a reply back from HRD yet :shrug:

 

Funny though Deva that you would leap in the conversation and accuse me of preaching, and if I would've debated right off with Tom, I would've been insensitive, right? I really honestly was curious as to what actual verses, or Biblical influence made Tom come to these terms.

 

Is that not okay, to ask politely why someone stands where they stand? Is it not okay to post a rebuttal to the person who basically told me predestination, and to go look it up in concordance?

 

I wanted Tom's opinion on the matter, and HRD gave hers, ..Which, was that really an opinion, or just another 'point' of why Christianity is stupid?

 

Not sure, but thought I was being courteous in my response, ...even though you are now accusing me of preaching. :HaHa:

 

Darned if you do, and darned if you don't :shrug:

 

Anyway, Tom already said why he did this or that, I was simply asking what verses, or Biblically influence amplified his decisions. Curiosity, as I said earlier. HRD spoke of herself, sorta like, " Hey it's there, look it up yourself". If Tom doesn't want to answer back, then that's Tom's prerogative, and telling me to look in the concordance IMO shows either HRD implies what I mentioned above, or it says HRD actually don't know what Bible verses influenced her, she just didn't like the ChristianTM posting on Tom's Wheaton College thread. :phew:

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Abi, if you'd like to have an extended discussion of predestination, may I suggest this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/33827-predestination/page__hl__predestination__fromsearch__1

 

It already has a few verses listed, so the discussion is already moving a bit, and that way this thread can stay on its original subject.

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Funny though Deva that you would leap in the conversation and accuse me of preaching, and if I would've debated right off with Tom, I would've been insensitive, right? I really honestly was curious as to what actual verses, or Biblical influence made Tom come to these terms.

 

Whatever. This being the den you can feel free to just spew all the junk you like all over the place. Just don't expect polite responses. It is off topic, no matter what you say.

 

I wanted Tom's opinion on the matter, and HRD gave hers, ..Which, was that really an opinion, or just another 'point' of why Christianity is stupid?

 

HRD was short and sweet, with some good advice to go look it up. Then you start in with your extended opinion (yes, I call it preaching) of how people select hell, people are saved by faith and a surprise at "God's supper" and you think we are just going to remain silent?

Why not have one more point on why Christianity is stupid? After all, there are so many.

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Abi, if you'd like to have an extended discussion of predestination, may I suggest this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/33827-predestination/page__hl__predestination__fromsearch__1

 

It already has a few verses listed, so the discussion is already moving a bit, and that way this thread can stay on its original subject.

 

:twitch: HRD brought it up, not me. Reeaadd the posts. I was just asking Tom what,....never mind. Go back and read. I feel like a broken record. :ugh:

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Whatever. This being the den you can feel free to just spew all the junk you like all over the place. Just don't expect polite responses. It is off topic, no matter what you say.

 

Never have expected nice responses. Helps with my Christian growth :grin: Anyway,, not off topic, just a question that the ChristianTM asked. Hurry!!! Get him!!!

 

I wanted Tom's opinion on the matter, and HRD gave hers, ..Which, was that really an opinion, or just another 'point' of why Christianity is stupid?

 

HRD was short and sweet, with some good advice to go look it up.

 

No, it was a cold shoulder to break out a concordance. Come on, a concordance? Pleazeeee :Doh:

Then you start in with your extended opinion (yes, I call it preaching) of how people select hell, people are saved by faith and a surprise at "God's supper" and you think we are just going to remain silent?

 

Well, don't want an explanation, then don't refer a person that studies Biblical affairs everyday to the concordance. Oh yeah Deva, your going a bit off topic here :Hmm:

Why not have one more point on why Christianity is stupid? After all, there are so many.

 

What churned your butter today. That is a bit double sided. One day sweet, another day sour. Deva, we have had pretty decent conversations in the past, even if I were intentionally preaching, Why the sad face today? Who cares? Are you defending the brethren, against the ChristianTM?

 

Hell, I start a topic and it gets turned, flipped, bounced around, stomped on, thrown, and nobody comes a running to my defense to "Get back on topic (stern voice implied)" :HaHa:

 

Anyway, carry ooooon.........

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What churned your butter today. That is a bit double sided. One day sweet, another day sour. Deva, we have had pretty decent conversations in the past, even if I were intentionally preaching, Why the sad face today? Who cares? Are you defending the brethren, against the ChristianTM?

 

Hell, I start a topic and it gets turned, flipped, bounced around, stomped on, thrown, and nobody comes a running to my defense to "Get back on topic (stern voice implied)" :HaHa:

 

Anyway, carry ooooon.........

 

You can shelve the personal jibes. You did not start this topic. It was started by Major Tom, who was giving us a bit of his background until you turned this into a soapbox for your own Christian views.

 

I don't fancy helping you in your "Christian growth," so I will now move on. Sorry about the sidetrack Major Tom.

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What churned your butter today. That is a bit double sided. One day sweet, another day sour. Deva, we have had pretty decent conversations in the past, even if I were intentionally preaching, Why the sad face today? Who cares? Are you defending the brethren, against the ChristianTM?

 

Hell, I start a topic and it gets turned, flipped, bounced around, stomped on, thrown, and nobody comes a running to my defense to "Get back on topic (stern voice implied)" :HaHa:

 

Anyway, carry ooooon.........

 

You can shelve the personal jibes. You did not start this topic. It was started by Major Tom, who was giving us a bit of his background until you turned this into a soapbox for your own Christian views.

 

I don't fancy helping you in your "Christian growth," so I will now move on. Sorry about the sidetrack Major Tom.

 

:rolleyes: Hope you have a better day tomorrow.

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Just curious, as I don't attain that notion. What parts of the Bible do you base that on? Again, not trying to start a debate or anything, just curious.

 

I was answering this question that you presented in a quick format since it really isn't the topic of the post - I didn't feel like delving into it because A) I studied it rather extensively (months and months of research) when I was a christian and even then felt like it wasn't something I wanted to force on other christians and B) you're right, I don't remember all the verses anymore - and frankly, I don't care to.

 

Your response would be fine if I (or anyone) had been asking or looking for a debate on it - you asked a question, I gave an answer suited to the question. Perhaps it was a question to MT, but since I've dealt with that particular area in the past, felt my answer may be of benefit to what you were asking. I'm not here to debate what I USED to believe - because, again, I don't believe any of it anymore, so why would I care if you think otherwise?

 

 

 

 

haven't heard a reply back from HRD yet Wendyshrug.gif

 

 

I wanted Tom's opinion on the matter, and HRD gave hers, ..Which, was that really an opinion, or just another 'point' of why Christianity is stupid?

 

 

 

Yes, no response because I was out in the real world volunteering at a dog adoption day...doing real good for creatures that really need it.

 

And why don't I want to get into - I already researched it, I don't feel the need to do so again. It's there for others to look up, I have no intention of looking it up for you. You can form your own conclusions - heck that was my stand when I still believed it, that sure ain't gonna change now.

 

HRD was short and sweet, with some good advice to go look it up.

 

That was my entire purpose

 

Abi, if you'd like to have an extended discussion of predestination, may I suggest this thread: http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

It already has a few verses listed, so the discussion is already moving a bit, and that way this thread can stay on its original subject.

 

Good cross post - thanks!

 

 

And I didn't bring it up, you asked about it. MT hadn't responded yet when I did, so I went ahead and answered your question. Now I'm sounding like the broken record!

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I was answering this question that you presented in a quick format since it really isn't the topic of the post - I didn't feel like delving into it because A) I studied it rather extensively (months and months of research) when I was a christian and even then felt like it wasn't something I wanted to force on other christians and B) you're right, I don't remember all the verses anymore - and frankly, I don't care to.

 

The question wasn't to you, and nobody asked you to 'delve' into it.

 

Your response would be fine if I (or anyone) had been asking or looking for a debate on it - you asked a question, I gave an answer suited to the question. Perhaps it was a question to MT, but since I've dealt with that particular area in the past, felt my answer may be of benefit to what you were asking. I'm not here to debate what I USED to believe - because, again, I don't believe any of it anymore, so why would I care if you think otherwise?

 

I didn't see it that way. But, again, it was for MT until you answered. Then I asked you which type of predestination you were speaking of (trying to be polite, even though I meant it specifically for MT).

 

I am open minded HRD, and I do get into lengthy concepts and discussions. I also respect a thread. I replied once to your post in this thread, not counting this one, and if it merited further discussion, I would've started another thread, or PM'ed you as I have done for years here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, no response because I was out in the real world volunteering at a dog adoption day...doing real good for creatures that really need it.

 

You are not the only one that is the real world. I have been with 4 kids all day. I said that all within a short time frame of when you had posted it. Sorry. :shrug:

 

And why don't I want to get into - I already researched it, I don't feel the need to do so again. It's there for others to look up, I have no intention of looking it up for you. You can form your own conclusions - heck that was my stand when I still believed it, that sure ain't gonna change now.

 

:grin: You definatly don't have to look it up for me. I was just just being polite, and opening conversation about your post. Nobody is trying to change you?? I just put what I though predestination is comprised around :ugh: If you don't want to get into a discussion with me personally, then don't respond to me, simple as that. I will always respond back, with my thoughts. It's called discussion. Also, the Lions Den from what I have gathered doesn't pertain much to staying on topic( though I usually do and would have started another thread or PM'ed you)

 

HRD was short and sweet, with some good advice to go look it up.

 

That was my entire purpose

 

I missed it I guess. I saw short and shoo fly.

 

Abi, if you'd like to have an extended discussion of predestination, may I suggest this thread: http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

It already has a few verses listed, so the discussion is already moving a bit, and that way this thread can stay on its original subject.

 

Good cross post - thanks!

 

 

And I didn't bring it up, you asked about it. MT hadn't responded yet when I did, so I went ahead and answered your question. Now I'm sounding like the broken record!

 

Again, the question was not addressed to you, and in future, if you do decide to respond, don't cry, Off Topic!! when someone replies back, before you have even responded. I said earlier. it's the Lions Den, change of topic from what I gathered isn't a big deal here, BUT I am polite most of the time, and will not pry; I would've started another thread, or actually just have dropped it when you said it doesn't matter to you, or you don't care about it.

 

For the record, I didn't ruin this thread, you guys did by all the rhetoric involved. :nono: I apologize Tom.

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Abi, if you'd like to have an extended discussion of predestination, may I suggest this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/33827-predestination/page__hl__predestination__fromsearch__1

 

It already has a few verses listed, so the discussion is already moving a bit, and that way this thread can stay on its original subject.

 

:twitch: HRD brought it up, not me. Reeaadd the posts. I was just asking Tom what,....never mind. Go back and read. I feel like a broken record. :ugh:

 

Um...that was meant as a friendly gesture, Abi.

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Um...that was meant as a friendly gesture, Abi.

 

I apologize, I had just been attacked for "preaching" by Deva and jumped the gun on your post. :thanks:

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:grin: Just glad to have it cleared up.
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However, the idea of a Creator's damnation of all humanity except for a few "elect" mortified me, therefore instead of becoming a missionary, I joined the armed forces, stayed in 25 years service until retirement as a USN Commander.

 

 

 

Just curious, as I don't attain that notion. What parts of the Bible do you base that on? Again, not trying to start a debate or anything, just curious.

 

This is the kind of Bible bilge that Fundies put out as you well know, "Yoyo".

 

http://www.biblegate...3A7&version=ESV

http://www.bible.ca/...m-essential.htm

Now get off my thread ya retard!PageofCupsNono.gif

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Um...that was meant as a friendly gesture, Abi.

 

I apologize, I had just been attacked for "preaching" by Deva and jumped the gun on your post. thanks.gif

 

Deva's attack was merely an observation which I dare say all here share. It is intellectually and morally dishonest for you to preach and then to shamelessly state that you do otherwise. Thank you for showing us your brand of Christianity.

 

A web page for your consideration... http://www.biblegate...=1&wid=T0001854

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Boy these bozos of the bible sure have a thang for unbelievers:

 

The Hebrew word here rendered "hypocrite" rather means the "godless" or "profane," as it is rendered in Jer. 23:11, i.e., polluted with crimes. (from BibleGateway.com quote)

 

Talk about redefining! :Wendywhatever:

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I went to Lincoln Christian College. My de-conversion was a long process, but it really started coming together when I took a class called "non-western religion" I was immediately appalled that it was called "non-western" instead of "eastern religion" I think that is incredibly arrogant

 

Really, did you have Walt Zorn for any Classes? He may have just taught in the Seminary though.

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No, it was a cold shoulder to break out a concordance. Come on, a concordance? Pleazeeee :Doh:

 

I find it difficult to believe that you, the great student, are ignorant of this. Read Romans 9 for a starter then read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.

 

Edit: Here is a teaser for you from the Institutes:

 

When the will of a natural man is said to be subject to the power of the devil, so as to be directed by it, the meaning is, not that it resists and is compelled to a reluctant submission, as masters compel slaves to an unwilling performance of their commands; but that, being fascinated by the fallacies of Satan, it necessarily submits itself to all his directions. For those whom the Lord does not favor with the government of His Spirit, He abandons in righteous judgment to the influence of Satan. . . .

 

When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present: and present in such a manner that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world and to all the creatures.
Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind.
For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others.

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