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Measure Of Faith


Abiyoyo
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I have a revised theology that has come to me of recent. I am writing a book about my life, my walk with God, and the variety of popular end time prophecies leading to close future dates. This last part is related to my walk with God in different ways, which I will write about in the book, also related to my past experiences resulting in my present status.

 

I am trying to lay out my thoughts, just started in writing, while speaking about all this to my wife. She is very simplistic in nature, religious, yet not at the same time. She is not easily intrigued by studies, facts, ideas, prophetical works, or for that matter, not much into any type of academic Biblical study. I say she is religious because she has gone to church much of her life, without her parents involved. I say she is not religious not because she isn't in to Biblical academics, but because she isn't really into anything religious. It's like she goes because they know her, they care about her, and because they show an acceptance of her just being there.

 

The revision came to me in reading Revelations. I was telling my wife of all the astronomical ideas out there, religious and not, that are directed to something impacting or altering earth. I was reading when something hit me. I read some verses,

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

"Salvation belongs to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

"Amen!

Praise and glory

and wisdom and thanks and honor

and power and strength

be to our God for ever and ever.

Amen!"

 

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

 

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

 

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,

"they are before the throne of God

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

16Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat upon them,

nor any scorching heat.

17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;

he will lead them to springs of living water.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

So, in red we have the multitude of Revelations that is from all tribes of people, standing, holding the palm branches, in fronn of Christ, or the Lamb. Simple enough. Now, in the blue, we have something that is the premise, not without attachments of my revised theology. I have always understood that these are the ones that will be taken up in the air during the Rapture, before the tribulation in reference to what Paul says,

 

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

What if that was meant in another context. This above theology of the Rapture would be adequate to the statement in Revelations, " these are they that have come out of the great tribulation". But, it can be applied in another context. These are they that have come out of the tribulation could be conveyed that these were the ones that were actually in the tribulation, were tried, tested, and their robes were washed white.

 

If these are those that came out of the tribulation, that would mean that the message of faith in Christ alone would not necessarily mean that we would be free of the tribulation which is referenced to what Christ says to the Church of Philadelphia,

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

I have always understood this scripture to add identification of the saints, those saved from the tribulations, by Jesus Christ.

 

In bold, we have a verse that says Christ is going to try those that dwell on the Earth, and secondly, for "him that overcometh He will make a pillar in the temple of God". This implied that whomever is kept from this time would be tested, and upon passing the test, will be make a pillar in the temple of God symbolically. Who are these people that will be tested, then to be pillars in the temple of God? I believe it is the church in whole, saved by faith or not.

 

Now, to Matthew and Mark, this is where I was in my research for my book, and was starting to explain Isaac Newton's prophecy based on Daniel. I kept reading though because I was misdirected.

 

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

Lets start with Matthew 24:21,

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

This starts the tribulation in Jesus' story. Compare what Jesus' said here, and what Revelations says here.

Matt 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Revelation

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

The verses in red are what I relate the text to each other in regard to Jesus' story. Blue text is the concern. He is gathering His elect from the four winds after the tribulation? This goes back to the ones that overcome and will be made a pillar of God. Overcome the tribulation?

 

Now to Luke,

2 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

In blue, we have the calamity of the end described by Christ. The last part is intriguing to me, verse 25 and 26 as to our current end time prophecies. But, the last verse here, 27, is what boggles me. This verse lines up with the seventh trumpet in Revelations and in Matthew from above. This would imply that Christians would be alive during this experience, during tribulation. Is this the test of faith? Overcoming these things, earning a faith beyond faith in Christ, through possible persecution to acknowledge?

 

My summary. I have heard many Christians say that they will be with Jesus and be Raptured up to God before the tribulation. It is very mainstream notion that Christians, saved by faith, will vanish before the tribulations starts. The multitude, in Revelation, is the anchor of my thought.

 

It could very well mean that only a few elect, are raptured, and the rest's faith will be tried during the tribulation, which would mean that it is far more complicated than just 'accepting Jesus'.

 

Well, Paul says that faith alone brings salvation. But Paul's faith was not likenedto the faith of a modern believer. The only reason Biblically that Paul didn't perish sooner is because of his former status as an officer. Yet, he was imprisoned, and was executed because of his faith in Christ. Is the faith of a modern church going Christian comparable to a martyr? Are they willing to physically die proclaiming Christ?

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  • Super Moderator

I think all the arguments for pre, mid and post-tribulation rapture have been made several times over by countless Biblical scholars, as well as the case for the original understanding of no rapture at all. You just have to choose an answer you like, no need to reinvent the wheel. Maybe a better place to rehash this theological conundrum would be a Christian, not Ex-Christian site. They don't snicker as much at taking this prophecy business seriously.

 

Honestly, if your god and his Bible which was inspired for your edification is that unclear to you - how are we who are not instructed by the Holy Spirit as you ostensibly are, supposed to make any sense of it? I am by nature an unrepentant smart ass, but I'm being sincere when I ask this.

 

Also, it's not really important but it is a pet peeve of mine - it is the Book of Revelation (no "s") or Revelation of St. John or the Revelation of Jesus. No "s".

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Honestly, if your god and his Bible which was inspired for your edification is that unclear to you

 

Well, this is clear to me. It's not really that it's clear or not to one person or another, but the different angles presented by different people. Careful research will show which ones are not entirely correct and which ones may be correct. But, I see it this way, clearly, and thought it was an interesting thought to make a thread. It is General Theological Issues. I would think that the mainstream Rapture crowd being mistaken about when they will float up in the air, as a Theological Issue? :shrug:

 

It's okay Florduh, basically, you don't have much to say about it, right? It's more like, eh, who cares, right? Well, maybe I will just be the first to tell him that it doesn't matter, and reduce his thread to rubbish, then tell him his grammar is very bad.

 

I still love ya man :grin:

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You just have to choose an answer you like, no need to reinvent the wheel. Maybe a better place to rehash this theological conundrum would be a Christian, not Ex-Christian site. They don't snicker as much at taking this prophecy business seriously.

 

Agreed. Granted, there could be some Ex-Christians on this site who might like to pursue this, but I think I am safe in saying that most of us do not believe the rapture of any importance or is real at all.

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Agreed. Granted, there could be some Ex-Christians on this site who might like to pursue this, but I think I am safe in saying that most of us do not believe the rapture of any importance or is real at all.

 

Well, then don't reply Deva, simple as that. BYE! :wave:

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  • Super Moderator

Topics here like this are akin to me going to a Christian forum and asking what everyone thinks Dawkins meant by a certain analogy he used in his last lecture. It makes no sense to do that, so I don't.

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Put crap like this in the Lion's den where we can respond honestly without gettin' in trouble with the mods, Yuk-Yuk.

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Topics here like this are akin to me going to a Christian forum and asking what everyone thinks Dawkins meant by a certain analogy he used in his last lecture. It makes no sense to do that, so I don't.

 

 

Put crap like this in the Lion's den where we can respond honestly without gettin' in trouble with the mods, Yuk-Yuk.

 

I don't mind that it moves to the Lion's Den. It's not like your 'honesty' has changed much in the past :HaHa:

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Yoyo, first, I want to say that I enjoy watching you grow out of your faith in christianity. :) You keep finding all these little bits that don't quite fit together.

One day you'll step back and see the bigger picture. ;)

 

 

In regards to your confusion, I think you would first need to justify Mt. 24:34

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

Three times in Matthew alone (repeated again in Mark and Luke), Jesus instructs his disciples about what to look for at the end of the age and repeats this to them. Clearly, he doesn't want them to miss it.

 

I know this aspect has been hashed out over and over, but the writers of the "gospels" clearly thought (like every single generation since) that the "end times" were going to be happening right away. The ambiguous "signs" given, can and have been applied to every single era to date. And probably for the forseeable future.

 

You need to first figure out why Jesus never came back 2,000 years ago before you make yourself crazy trying to work out the ravings of a madman.

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Where do you see the rapture being discussed in Revelation at all? And why do you assume the eschatology of Revelation is the same eschatology as Matthew or Paul?

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The revision came to me in reading Revelations. I was telling my wife of all the astronomical ideas out there, religious and not, that are directed to something impacting or altering earth. I was reading when something hit me. I read some verses,

I didn't read any of your post beyond this. I look forward to your book and how it relates to Apophis. Which date should I worry about 2029 or 2036? It is a seven year window after all.

 

mwc

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The revision came to me in reading Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

This kept standing out to me as I read your post. As someone else has pointed out, the title of the last book of the bible is singular, not plural. It's a minor point, of course, and may seem nitpicky, but I think that someone who is writing a book about this stuff should be a little more cautious to get details like this correct. ;)

 

By the way, the various eschatological perspectives have been tackled over and over by theologians. There's even a Counterpoints debate-form book called Three Views On The Rapture.

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Genesis and Revelation tie for the title as biggest piece of useless shit in the Holy book of Fairey Tales.

Let's analyze Alice in Wonderland. It's much more believable and they have slightly more talking animals.

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Where do you see the rapture being discussed in Revelation at all? And why do you assume the eschatology of Revelation is the same eschatology as Matthew or Paul?

 

That is a good point oddbird. It doesn't speak of anyone floating up into heaven in Revelation. Maybe the Rapture was something that Paul came up with :shrug:

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The revision came to me in reading Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

...Revelations....

 

This kept standing out to me as I read your post. As someone else has pointed out, the title of the last book of the bible is singular, not plural. It's a minor point, of course, and may seem nitpicky, but I think that someone who is writing a book about this stuff should be a little more cautious to get details like this correct. ;)

 

 

 

Thanks. I will need editorial help before trying to seek an agent for sure :D Phanta said she would give it a look over for me. :)

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The revision came to me in reading Revelations. I was telling my wife of all the astronomical ideas out there, religious and not, that are directed to something impacting or altering earth. I was reading when something hit me. I read some verses,

I didn't read any of your post beyond this. I look forward to your book and how it relates to Apophis. Which date should I worry about 2029 or 2036? It is a seven year window after all.

 

mwc

 

Thanks MWC, I actually hadn't read up on this one. The one that caught my attention initially was the PlanetX or Nibiru planet. NASA has a page dedicated at explaining that it is a hoax.

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Thanks MWC, I actually hadn't read up on this one. The one that caught my attention initially was the PlanetX or Nibiru planet. NASA has a page dedicated at explaining that it is a hoax.

Aw, really? I thought for sure that you were talking about Apophis. See? I can be wrong. ;)

 

I just think Apophis is great since it's a potential impact event, it has the whole seven year thing going on and the connection to an ancient serpent/underworld god. Apophis has it all.

 

I thought the other stuff really relates more to people who have usurped the Sumerian myths? I don't follow this sort of thing so I guess I didn't realize xians have attached themselves to this in any meaningful way (I've been to some "new age" type sites that merge it into one big mess but I usually click away).

 

mwc

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Aw, really? I thought for sure that you were talking about Apophis. See? I can be wrong. ;)

 

I just think Apophis is great since it's a potential impact event, it has the whole seven year thing going on and the connection to an ancient serpent/underworld god. Apophis has it all.

 

:lol: Well, Apophis does seem to fit the Apocalyptical Revelational Mayan Sumerian Nostradamical Newtonized Effect :grin:

I thought the other stuff really relates more to people who have usurped the Sumerian myths? I don't follow this sort of thing so I guess I didn't realize xians have attached themselves to this in any meaningful way (I've been to some "new age" type sites that merge it into one big mess but I usually click away).

 

mwc

 

One, time, here recent, I was on one of those pages that had all the different colors, with all big fonts, Exclamation points and all. So, being the curious type, I read it's page and come across something about Isaac Newton. So I did a :Hmm: then I did a :eek: when I researched and found all the information about Newton's dabbling into Biblical prophecy. Fascinating reads. The Jews released his works on microfilm or something in 1991, and the works are now available to anyone. Cool B)

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My advice is don't waste your time reaching out for something that is not there or studying about something that isn't going to happen. Enjoy life here on earth.

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