Animals Feel The Pain Of Religious Slaughter

[hereticzero]

An axe? On cattle? Seriously? I guess I wouldn't know as I've never got in on slaughtering cattle, but a .22LR has always worked well on hogs. You have to get close and hit it squarely, though- otherwise the bullet can ricochet off the skull. And a 600lb sow can go pretty much anywhere she wants to if she's good and pissed off. I've never had one get back up, but I always keep a solid length of pipe or 2x4 handy just in case.

 

I'll never be a vegetarian for obvious reasons- just don't have much empathy for non-human animals, and they taste good IMO. But what I'll never understand- and find kinda offensive- are people who have no problem eating a cheeseburger, yet can't stomach the THOUGHT of killing that same critter. I have a lot more respect for ya'll vegetarians who live by your convictions.

 

But I guess for some people, feeling good about an action that they find morally questionable requires nothing more than paying some poor slob in a packing plant to do their dirty work.

I've only had to help butcher out three cows on the hoof and they were put down with a 12 gauge deer slug before I arrived. The axe has to be very sharp in order to severe the spinal chord quickly and most people do not know how to sharpen a knife, let alone an axe. If the axe cannot cut the hide through, go for the gun and resharpen the axe. I use more than an axe depending on the size of the animal. Sharp knives and a big gun, the cowboy way.

[RankStranger]

It ain't the easy way... nor is it the right way. It's the 'cowboy' way.

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

The reason I stopped eating most meat (except seafood) is empathy for the intelligent, sentient animals. I fished alot until I was in my 20's, and killed the fish ASAP, to minimize their suffering. I can understand eating meat, but it's avoidable and unnecessary suffering that gets to me. Only in an ideal, perfect world would total vegetarianism apply to everyone. I tried for several years, but it was not that good for my health.

 

I don't know if you're already aware of this (or even care), but a big problem I originally had with quitting meat was that I wasn't eating proper replacement foods, I just stopped eating meat. I still craved it and would give in after a few days or weeks. Once I figured out I have to make sure I'm still eating enough protein and/or a complete amino acid profile, as well as iron and other micronutrients, my meat cravings completely disappeared, and my energy levels were restored. I think this is a very common mistake made by beginning veggies. In fact, one thing that surprised me was the fact that cooking meat now smells disgusting to me (esp. red meat), and that was completely unexpected. I think once my body realized it could get the nutrients it needs from other sources, it forgot all about meat products...

[Mriana]

 

The reason I stopped eating most meat (except seafood) is empathy for the intelligent, sentient animals. I fished alot until I was in my 20's, and killed the fish ASAP, to minimize their suffering. I can understand eating meat, but it's avoidable and unnecessary suffering that gets to me. Only in an ideal, perfect world would total vegetarianism apply to everyone. I tried for several years, but it was not that good for my health.

 

I don't know if you're already aware of this (or even care), but a big problem I originally had with quitting meat was that I wasn't eating proper replacement foods, I just stopped eating meat. I still craved it and would give in after a few days or weeks. Once I figured out I have to make sure I'm still eating enough protein and/or a complete amino acid profile, as well as iron and other micronutrients, my meat cravings completely disappeared, and my energy levels were restored. I think this is a very common mistake made by beginning veggies. In fact, one thing that surprised me was the fact that cooking meat now smells disgusting to me (esp. red meat), and that was completely unexpected. I think once my body realized it could get the nutrients it needs from other sources, it forgot all about meat products...

 

I never had that problem, but then I have always ate beans and nuts, broccoli, spinach, and brussel sprouts, as well as other like greens. Not to mention I never had a issue with grains either.

[qec]

I've killed and butchered plenty of animals growing up and of course from hunting. While I don't relish it, it's a chore like washing dishes or doing laundry just more messy and smelly. People that never lived a country existence can hardly be blamed for the disconnect I suppose since they have never had to do these things to survive. Even a simple garden is remote from most city dwellers. When I was growing up, if we didn't raise and butcher it ourselves or hunt and kill it, we likely wouldn't have had any meat at all since we were so poor. The funny thing is, it seems to me country folk have a much better appreciation for nature and animals since they depend on it to survive. City folk usually seem clueless about the cycle of life and believe in absurdities like hunting is cruel.

 

Excuse me, but I lived in the country as a child and it sickened me to see my mother do those things. I despise it. BTW, I've been a vegetarian for a lifetime. I would not eat what she killed because it appalled me nor would I eat what my grandfather hunted down and killed. I would not touch meat, period because I saw it as brutal, cruel, and inhumane. My mother had a horrible time getting me to eat meat and she finally gave up when I was around 9 or 10, after the dr to her not to worry about it and not to force it. The country does not change that and it has nothing to do with being "City folk" either. I think it can go either way and people are people.

 

BTW, they were my "friends" long before she killed them and I often I would feel transcendence when I looked into their eyes, esp if I was upset or just dealt with my bio-father, but be that as it may, country v city has nothing to do with it.

 

 

I think country versus city most definitely does have a shitload to do with it, and I think you are an exception to that rule. For me, it's borderline inhumane to keep a dog in my apartment where it's locked up and cannot go anywhere or see anything unless you are walking it. Instead, I would much rather have it out in a rural area where it's free to explore and roam a bit on a long ass leash. Then I could release it day to day and let it go wherever it wanted to go rather than being cooped up in some small ass city apartment, which situation devolves into virtual sensory deprivation for the animal.

 

Or keeping a parakeet in a cage? To me, that's fucking cruelty. Keeping animals in cages is hardly better, in one sense, than keeping human beings in prison. At least the animal didn't do anything wrong. Keeping guinea pigs in cages, etc. etc. Lot's of people do this, and I am not sure I ever could as I have always had an objection to this on some level.

 

So in the end, the underlying point I am trying to make is that peoples' views on what is or is not cruelty to animals-those views are relative to a large degree and not necessarily binding for all; even if I see things a certain way on this issue, I wouldn't feel right trying to impose those ideas on other people. In my opinion that usually does more harm than good in the long run, except for obvious cases we all agree on (which the laws against animal cruelty are made on).

[Mriana]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the country v. city.

 

As for the dog... I don't have a dog, in part because I don't want to have to go out at 10:00 at night in the middle of winter to walk the dog. I have cats. Much better house pets.

[qec]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the country v. city.

 

As for the dog... I don't have a dog, in part because I don't want to have to go out at 10:00 at night in the middle of winter to walk the dog. I have cats. Much better house pets.

 

 

Sure no problem.

[agnosticator]

I don't know if you're already aware of this (or even care), but a big problem I originally had with quitting meat was that I wasn't eating proper replacement foods, I just stopped eating meat. I still craved it and would give in after a few days or weeks. Once I figured out I have to make sure I'm still eating enough protein and/or a complete amino acid profile, as well as iron and other micronutrients, my meat cravings completely disappeared, and my energy levels were restored. I think this is a very common mistake made by beginning veggies. In fact, one thing that surprised me was the fact that cooking meat now smells disgusting to me (esp. red meat), and that was completely unexpected. I think once my body realized it could get the nutrients it needs from other sources, it forgot all about meat products...

 

I should have been more specific, in that, I was meaning a strict vegetarian diet excluding eggs and dairy. That is what I couldn't handle, as I never felt good for more than a couple of days. I did eat a balanced diet, but needed to add occasional eggs, and cheese or yogurt. I can't have milk because I am lactose intolerant, yet cheese and yogurt don't bother me. I also don't really crave meat, but steak smells good to me! I eat seafood once or twice a week because a nutritionist friend suggested it, and I feel best when I include some in my diet.

 

I also noticed that excluding caffeine, processed foods, and sugar (except in cooking and as a condiment) helped me feel more energetic too.

[Mriana]

I don't know if you're already aware of this (or even care), but a big problem I originally had with quitting meat was that I wasn't eating proper replacement foods, I just stopped eating meat. I still craved it and would give in after a few days or weeks. Once I figured out I have to make sure I'm still eating enough protein and/or a complete amino acid profile, as well as iron and other micronutrients, my meat cravings completely disappeared, and my energy levels were restored. I think this is a very common mistake made by beginning veggies. In fact, one thing that surprised me was the fact that cooking meat now smells disgusting to me (esp. red meat), and that was completely unexpected. I think once my body realized it could get the nutrients it needs from other sources, it forgot all about meat products...

 

I should have been more specific, in that, I was meaning a strict vegetarian diet excluding eggs and dairy. That is what I couldn't handle, as I never felt good for more than a couple of days. I did eat a balanced diet, but needed to add occasional eggs, and cheese or yogurt. I can't have milk because I am lactose intolerant, yet cheese and yogurt don't bother me. I also don't really crave meat, but steak smells good to me! I eat seafood once or twice a week because a nutritionist friend suggested it, and I feel best when I include some in my diet.

 

I also noticed that excluding caffeine, processed foods, and sugar (except in cooking and as a condiment) helped me feel more energetic too.

 

I agree. Not to insult any vegans around here, but I think a vegetarian diet that is so strict that it excludes dairy and eggs, can cause a problem to one's health. No animals is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with eating what they freely give us without dying for it. I have yet to find a cow who objects to being milked or a chicken who actually cares about eggs.

[Shyone]

 

I agree. Not to insult any vegans around here, but I think a vegetarian diet that is so strict that it excludes dairy and eggs, can cause a problem to one's health. No animals is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with eating what they freely give us without dying for it. I have yet to find a cow who objects to being milked or a chicken who actually cares about eggs.

I wouldn't think too much about milk, but the unborn! Actually, animals that lay eggs vary in the amount of attention they pay to their eggs, but there is a maternal instinct to keep them warm, covered and protected.

[Guest]

I don't know if you're already aware of this (or even care), but a big problem I originally had with quitting meat was that I wasn't eating proper replacement foods, I just stopped eating meat. I still craved it and would give in after a few days or weeks. Once I figured out I have to make sure I'm still eating enough protein and/or a complete amino acid profile, as well as iron and other micronutrients, my meat cravings completely disappeared, and my energy levels were restored. I think this is a very common mistake made by beginning veggies. In fact, one thing that surprised me was the fact that cooking meat now smells disgusting to me (esp. red meat), and that was completely unexpected. I think once my body realized it could get the nutrients it needs from other sources, it forgot all about meat products...

 

I should have been more specific, in that, I was meaning a strict vegetarian diet excluding eggs and dairy. That is what I couldn't handle, as I never felt good for more than a couple of days. I did eat a balanced diet, but needed to add occasional eggs, and cheese or yogurt. I can't have milk because I am lactose intolerant, yet cheese and yogurt don't bother me. I also don't really crave meat, but steak smells good to me! I eat seafood once or twice a week because a nutritionist friend suggested it, and I feel best when I include some in my diet.

 

I also noticed that excluding caffeine, processed foods, and sugar (except in cooking and as a condiment) helped me feel more energetic too.

 

I agree. Not to insult any vegans around here, but I think a vegetarian diet that is so strict that it excludes dairy and eggs, can cause a problem to one's health. No animals is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with eating what they freely give us without dying for it. I have yet to find a cow who objects to being milked or a chicken who actually cares about eggs.

 

True. I don't understand Vegans either, but that may be because I love cheese! It's just too hard to get everything you need (impossible, actually, considering B12) from the plant world. Although I do try to minimize my milk intake by using almond milk with my morning cereal and such, I'll have yogurt occasionally but it messes with my sinus so I try to avoid it mostly.

[OpheliaGinger]

Not all eggs that are laid are fertilized.

 

You can count me among the vegetarians on here. I'm not one because of ethics or not wanting to hurt animals but more for dietary reasons, but I definitely cannot stand it when I see animals basically get tortured before they are finally killed; if you are going to kill an animal for its meat and/or skin, kill it as quickly as possible in such a way you minimize damage to the skin and muscles (a good shot to the head should do it). I've seen animals get butchered and have their intestines pulled out, but I don't get disgusted with it.

[Vigile]

What about shrimp? They aren't sentient are they? If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons shouldn't it be ok to eat non sentient animals?

[RankStranger]

Better yet, shellfish. Surely nobody can love a scallop.

[Mriana]

 

I agree. Not to insult any vegans around here, but I think a vegetarian diet that is so strict that it excludes dairy and eggs, can cause a problem to one's health. No animals is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with eating what they freely give us without dying for it. I have yet to find a cow who objects to being milked or a chicken who actually cares about eggs.

I wouldn't think too much about milk, but the unborn! Actually, animals that lay eggs vary in the amount of attention they pay to their eggs, but there is a maternal instinct to keep them warm, covered and protected.

 

If there is no rooster around, the eggs have no babies. They are not fertilized. So, the hens are less likely to be protective of them. There has to be a male around before there are any babies. An egg is just and egg, unless there is a male around.

[Mriana]

What about shrimp? They aren't sentient are they? If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons shouldn't it be ok to eat non sentient animals?

 

It is meat, but regardless, I still can't fathom eating seafood.

[Vigile]

What about shrimp? They aren't sentient are they? If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons shouldn't it be ok to eat non sentient animals?

 

It is meat, but regardless, I still can't fathom eating seafood.

 

Sounds like a statement of faith then. How is this different from religious dogma?

[Guest]

What about shrimp? They aren't sentient are they? If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons shouldn't it be ok to eat non sentient animals?

 

Well, I'm not a vegetarian because I don't want to eat sentient animals (although I am disgusted by their slaughter); I'm a veggie *mostly* because meat production is unsustainable and environmentally damaging.

 

But as far as your shrimp question, they are bottom feeders that, along with crabs and lobsters, serve the same ecological niche that roaches and such serve on land. They eat all the toxins/waste that falls to the ocean floor, so are not "clean" food in the sense their mercury levels are high, etc. Since I wouldn't eat a land cockroach, I don't see why I would eat a sea cockroach...

 

Not to mention the oceans are being over fished to death. Fish farms have their own problems with disease, and the flesh has to be dyed to make it look like the "real" meat it is emulating.

 

If we could invent replicators like on Star Trek, then I'd probably start eating "meat" again. But I'd never consume "synthahol"...

[Vigile]

Well, I'm not a vegetarian because I don't want to eat sentient animals (although I am disgusted by their slaughter); I'm a veggie *mostly* because meat production is unsustainable and environmentally damaging.

 

This I can logically wrap my mind around.

 

But as far as your shrimp question, they are bottom feeders that, along with crabs and lobsters, serve the same ecological niche that roaches and such serve on land. They eat all the toxins/waste that falls to the ocean floor, so are not "clean" food in the sense their mercury levels are high, etc. Since I wouldn't eat a land cockroach, I don't see why I would eat a sea cockroach...

 

Couldn't you make similar arguments about various plants as well? For example, corn production that strips the soil of nutrients and depletes the water table (I'm just making this one up, but I'm sure not all plants are beneficial to the environment).

 

I guess I have environmental sympathies but I just don't see the efforts of a few with sympathies having any effect and it seems rather futile to hope that the masses and the corporations that basically run things are going to change.

[Ouroboros]

A couple articles that show the outlawing of kosher killing of animals linked with the Nazis. Outlawing this style of animal slaughter was one of the first things Germany enacted against the Jews. Not that I really care one way or another if it's allowed but those wanting it banned should be aware of how banning it had been used as a tool of the Nazis.

 

http://modiya.nyu.edu/handle/1964/489

 

http://westerncivilizationandculture.blogspot.com/2009/05/animal-right-groups-stays-true-to-their.html

He also promoted healthy living, eating right (I think even vegetarianism), and went so far as to outlawed smoking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany

[Mriana]

What about shrimp? They aren't sentient are they? If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons shouldn't it be ok to eat non sentient animals?

 

It is meat, but regardless, I still can't fathom eating seafood.

 

Sounds like a statement of faith then. How is this different from religious dogma?

 

I'm not sure what you mean, esp when I don't like it and never have. You're an adult. If you don't like something, do you eat it?

[Vigile]

Fair enough. When you said you wouldn't eat it because it is meat I thought you were taking a moral stand on the issue.

[Mriana]

Fair enough. When you said you wouldn't eat it because it is meat I thought you were taking a moral stand on the issue.

 

It is meat, but what does it matter if it is a moral stand or not? However, it isn't a moral stand, but if it were, so what.

[Guest]

 

Couldn't you make similar arguments about various plants as well? For example, corn production that strips the soil of nutrients and depletes the water table (I'm just making this one up, but I'm sure not all plants are beneficial to the environment).

 

I guess I have environmental sympathies but I just don't see the efforts of a few with sympathies having any effect and it seems rather futile to hope that the masses and the corporations that basically run things are going to change.

 

I suppose you could, but, I have to eat something. The thing that really sticks in my mind is that it takes 10 pounds of grain to grow one pound of beef and half of the potable water goes to livestock or to the crops we feed to them. So yea, corn may be destructive to the land, but it will feed a lot more people than one pound of beef will, so in a way that destruction is "justified", or at least minimized. To me, vegetarianism is more efficient use of resources, and that is enough for me.

 

And I don't fool myself into thinking I'm making any difference in the issues I have a "beef" with (sorry, I had to ). It is enough for me to know that I am not supporting or taking part in the system. Just like I know my not watching reality TV will not cause the ratings to drop and have real programing back on the roster, but I still won't watch it just because it is stupid and I don't like it.

[Vigile]

Fair enough. When you said you wouldn't eat it because it is meat I thought you were taking a moral stand on the issue.

 

It is meat, but what does it matter if it is a moral stand or not? However, it isn't a moral stand, but if it were, so what.

 

Because if it is a moral position it doesn't make sense to not eat non sentient creatures (unless you are doing it for environmental reasons as Marty suggests). If it is not sentient it can't suffer, ala, it's no different than a plant.