Discussion For Ex-Xians: Limiting Christian Access Here

[Legion]

 

Okay Isker, okay. I can see how it might have come across like that. Point taken.

[Antlerman]

 

Okay Isker, okay. I can see how it might have come across like that. Point taken.

Yeah! Like calling someone 'fathead' all the time, you....

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I missed it when that happened, and I am sorry it did. I haven't been diagnosed with any emotional problem, but I have been known to get panic attacks and at least a few times it was caused by something someone said online. On the outside, and afterwards, I know its silly and its over-reaction, but I do what I can and take steps to avoid that situation from happening again. I think you really do try to avoid this type of situation for the same reasons and so when it did happen it was hard for you to deal with and now the board doesn't feel safe. I think the problem was this was in the News section which does spark debate frequently but it happened to be a subject important to you. Perhaps it would have been better if the subject had been started in a different section it would not have happened. Because from what I have seen, the News sub forum usually has controversial topics that people (Christian and Ex-C) argue over so its not one that people feel the need to pull punches on.

 

I hope you can feel comfortable about the site again and hopefully the Christian excluded forums (Testimonials and Ex-C Life I know for sure) will be clearer for you so you know where you can be safest. <hugs>

[ShallowByThyGame]

Sometimes on the internet you can only post your feelings and whatever will be will be. It's not healthy to become consumed by online arguments, but neither is it out of the ordinary. When you make a post and then feel vulnerable or disrespected, try to relax and ignore it. Remember that that person may themselves be in a dark place, and are lashing out. Once you start reacting with fear and bitterness you shut down free expression, which is the very point of this forum. Censorship, control, domination...that is what we fight against...and we should practice what we preach. If we have to roll our eyes while the madmen jibber about jebus, then so be it.

 

Think of it as a lesson...part of becoming an ex-christian, or really anything, is becoming comfortable with yourself, such that no person can upset you for it, and it becomes the same as when someone scoffs as you because you drink tea and not coffee. It's okay to say 'you're an idiot' and move on.

[Kyle]

Well, I have read both threads and have been thoroughly entertained.

 

[Loren]

Ameen,

 

First, let me apologize for being away.

 

I've been dealing with Dad having a stroke and I've been taking care of things for both Mom and Dad. Medical stuff, legal stuff, life stuff and so on. I'm an only child, so everything has fallen to me to deal with. Mom doesn't drive and both of them are in their mid-eighties, so with the intensity of the situation, which has dragged on for the last three months, Mom, although she's definitely not senile, might as well have been senile due to mental and emotional exhaustion. Only last Wednesday was when I took Dad home from the care facility where he's spent the last three months.

 

I'm exhausted, too. This has been a daily thing and we're all wiped out. I haven't been this mentally impaired on a daily basis for twenty years. My thinking abilities are just not there, right now. And today, though I'm truly not ready, I have to go take the first part of a commercial driver's test plus hazmat stuff for work. There are other things, too, all of which must be taken care of, yet some of which I simply have not been able to get to. The shit has hit the fan in our lives in a big way.

 

So I wasn't ignoring you, I just wasn't able to get back to you.

 

Although I'm not the official mod for Ex-Christian Life, it's the forum where I most exert my power as a mod. In Testimonies, Christians are expressly told not to post there. Read, yes, but not post.

 

Ex-Christian Life is meant to be a safe place for ex-Christians. I firmly consider it to be one of the two public fora here that should be sacrosanct.

 

That being said, let me be clear that although Christians are not allowed to post in Testimonies, they are still allowed to post here, but it is very conditional. Whether we should close it entirely to Christians has been discussed among staff in years past. The reason I personally feel it should not be closed is that every so often, a person who is still Christian is in the process of coming out and dealing with all the horrible stuff which so many have to face. On the one hand, they are still in the place of, because they are honest, having to claim Christianity. On the other, also because they are honest about what they are going through, they still need a safe place where they can work things out in a supportive environment. I can't tell you how normal it is for such folks to have gotten no such support or help from their normal Christian circle. Just the opposite. It's my opinion that although they don't come in every day, we must still hold the door open for them. Often, this site and the Ex-Christian Life forum is the only safe place they've found to do this needed work.

 

To balance this open door with achieving safety, I've taken it on myself to police the Ex-Christian Life forum for Christian misbehavior. For staff to be vigilant and make spot judgment calls in each individual situation is the only way I can see of achieving that safety, for if we just open things up, Christian assholes will come in and destroy the safety, while if we make a rule forbidding Christians, the ones who sometimes desperately need it will be automatically denied access.

 

The purpose of this site is not only to give succor and support to Ex-Christians, it is also to help those who are in the process of coming out.

 

Normally, what I do when I see a Christian spamming God crap in here, or being abusive, is to give them a strong warning within their own post. As a mod, I have editorial privileges which allow me to edit other's posts. I'll delete the abusive text and substitute my warning in red. I could just delete their post, but I think that leaving the post box along with the name of the person and their Christian label serves a couple of good purposes.

 

One of those is to identify the offender to new people as a public service. Kind of like tattooing the word, "Burglar" on the forehead of the guy you caught breaking into your house. It says to future strangers, "Watch out for this guy. Be warned." Another purpose is to show new people who, like you, need to know this place is safe, that there is a definite mod presence here, and we don't take bullshit lightly when it happens in a place that's supposed to be safe. If I just deleted offending posts, that wouldn't be so obvious. Another reason is that it's more of a permanent embarrassment to the offender. It's a permanent public record of misbehavior, and a more forceful inducement to not repeat the offense.

 

That being said, let me make it clear that this is the only forum on this site where I use that approach.

 

What's normal on the internet for most religiously oriented websites is to either have absentee mods so it seems to be an anything goes free-for-all (And those sites tend to be disgusting sewers, socially speaking.), or sites that are so draconian in their post moderation that they seem to be object lessons on the evils of totalitarian tyranny.

 

Neither is good.

 

I'd like to say more to you personally, but I really need to get ready and go take care of this DMV stuff. If there's anything I could leave you with, it's this:

 

In the Ex-Christian Life forum and Testimonies, the safety of posters is paramount. Pitchu has official responsibility for Testimonies (She's on hiatus now, but Hans is ably managing it while she's gone.), and I have unofficial responsibility for Ex-Christian Life. I consider it to be an honor to stand guard over this forum on a pretty much daily basis, and you are one of the folks I protect. Please know that, though there are no rules against Christians posting here, I make it my personal business to make sure it's a safe place.

 

Loren

[Taphophilia]

Hi Ameen,

 

I don't think anyone should discount your feelings. They are your feelings and you are entitled to them. No one should tell you how to feel or not feel. Feelings are not rational, they are feelings. I'm glad you started this thread to discuss your feelings. I think it was a grown up thing to do, even if others disagree with it.

 

There are sensitive issues for all of us. Yes, Abiyoyo hit a nerve for you. I understand.

[Legion]

 

Okay Isker, okay. I can see how it might have come across like that. Point taken.

Yeah! Like calling someone 'fathead' all the time, you....

 

Don't get me started, fathead.

[Neon Genesis]

I personally don't think you over-reacted, Ameen. I think you reacted exactly the way you'd expect someone with OCD to react in a situation where they're faced with a trigger like that. I can't fully understand what you're going through as I don't have OCD, but I did have ADHD growing up as a kid. Everyone around me thought I was misbehaving on purpose to be a troublemaker when I thought my reaction was perfectly normal and rational, so I had to take ritilin to help me with it. While I can understand your point about creating a safe place for ex-Christians and I certainly think ex-c should be as safe as possible, I also can see Phanta's point in creating a safe place where we can debate with Christians. One of the reasons I like ex-c is that it's helped me to sharpen my debating skills and toughen my skin in a debate by allowing me to have a place to debate freely with Christians while at the same time feeling safe because there are other ex-Christians I can count on to come to my defense if I needed any help. By being able to debate with other Christians in a safe pro-ex environment, it's helped me to be more comfortable with debating Christians on their own turf, so to speak. One thing I can suggest that might help is while you're not having your OCD trigged or anything to go through the forums and put any Christians you think might trigger it later on ignore, so that way you won't be able to see their posts.

[woodsmoke]

This is more of a general post rather than being directed at Ameen specifically.

 

First rule of internet discussion: you're not shackled to the computer.

[qec]

@ Phanta: Thank you, too! Perhaps we need a section for emotions, growth, and ongoing work (not just the sections already non-Christian) free from Christian rants.

 

You are welcome, Ameen. I have panic attacks sometimes. They suck bigtime.

 

I would be very interested in seeing a section dedicated to emotions and especially growth and ongoing work, and have it restricted to ex-cers and password-protected (to keep it out of the search engines). Great idea!

 

Phanta

 

That would be a good idea I think..

[nightflight]

Ameem, I think you are too hard on yourself.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Ameen,

 

I'll toss this into the discussion.

 

We've had and handled hundreds, if not thousands, christians/religious/assholes/jerks/fucksticks/dumbasses, etc, so on and such in the years ExC has been a public spot on InTARweBb.

 

This place on 'net is one of the most libertarian (note please, small l) places in this venue and genre on the Web. People, until they break something irreplaceable tend to get as much "slack" as can be afforded in those public places.

 

I will ensure the carksacking dumbasses stay out of our private posting areas, along with rest of Staff. Thing is? I am not a "niceguy", nor do I give a shit what outsiders think of me.

 

With that said Abiyoyo was spoken to, things were on way of being taken care of by the other more mellow better spoken Staffers here. Being taken care of.

 

Your response is your 1A Right to have posted, your argument with Abi provided some good net tennis as you two went back and forth.

 

Then that shut down. Staff did their thing, and until this thread, was taken care of.

 

What I resent? Seemingly sly insinuation that we on Staff either do not have enough "Rules" or do not go around using the Ban Hammer Enforcer enough for you.

 

We've got a great balance of Freedom of Speech/Use of Private Property Within Posted Guidelines.

 

I see little reason to "tune the Rules" or modify what works for the grand majority of this place because of some "not forbidden" net furring.

 

Appreciate your presence here, and I believe so do many others.

 

Will say that this spot is a mature Community with a decent set of participants and members.

 

Your concerns are important. Big However is that as many previously have pointed out, participation in threads and sections that are **not** ExC-only require that ALL participants be ready for some rock 'n roll attitudes spread around.

 

kevinL

[Guest ephymeris]

Ameen, I just finished reading the post that started this all. Yup, Abiyoyo was being a dick. Abi provoked you and when you were clearly in distress, he mocked you. I think you reacted strongly but I would too if it was such a sore subject. I don't know if I agree that we need additional protected areas on this site, though I feel it is neccessary to have at least the few that we do. I like the potential to feel and see support of my opinions from other ex-c'ers when a christian says something stupid or offensive and I like seeing how the intelligent ex-c members of this commmunity can decimate stupid christian ideas with logic and knowledge. I think Abi should be allowed to state his opinion but when he pursued you and perpetuated the argument, I think he should have been smacked down and told to stop his bullshit. I like having you on the board, I hope you don't leave

[Ameen]

I'm grateful for the candor here.

 

In order to keep the peace, I will stay out of News and Current Events section the same way I stay out of debate threads for as long as I am on the board; I will go there only if I want to read (and only read) a news article someone has posted. I won't look at any of the comments. I need to do this since I am not up to getting into it with a Christian again. I just can't. I am so tired of Christians and their mind control.

 

Per what Loren wrote, I will spend a lot more time in the Ex-Christian Life section.

 

Again, I am sorry that there was so much drama on Sunday.

 

Working backwards...

 

@ ephymeris: I have no intention of leaving, and I hope I made it clear in my first post in this thread that I was not leaving. Rather, I am looking for a way to be more in keeping with the aims of the board.

 

In addition, I am not interfering with Abiyoyo in any way. He started his own thread about why he is on the board, and I'm leaving him alone.

 

Thank you for the support!

 

@ nivek: I have never had an issue with you in the past, and I still don't. Like others, you have been honest with me, and I appreciate that.

 

The problem I am having is that you talk about the issue as if it were completely taken care of. What you mean is that it was completely taken care of on the board. I am the one who has not been taken care of. How many of you mods talked to me the way you did Abiyoyo?

 

What happened Sunday was a repeat of what has always been done to me. In church and in my extended family I was everybody's punching bag, and when I was growing up I was the unpopular, nerdy kid unworthy of kindness. Now I have made something of myself and am respected by my immediate family (not my extended family), my friends, and my professional colleagues. When someone attacks me the way I was attacked on Sunday, or when any Christian dares pontificate on issues of sexual identity, I will lose it. That is me, and I won't say otherwise.

 

If I were in a place where I did not need help in coming to terms with all of this nonsense, I would not be on the board. I am here because I need help. Right now I am still hurting, and this thread is the best way I can deal with it.

 

It is possible that I am remembering incorrectly or thinking about another board--and if so I must apologize again--but when I was talking about rules I was referring to my recollection of something that stated Christians were limited to certain debate sections and needed permission to post outside them. I remember feeling relieved when I saw that.

 

I did not merely insinuate that the board would be better off with more rules; I think I all but stated it outright. In retrospect, I can see how I should have been more tactful; if I have erred I take full blame. However, I also said that I would abide by whatever was decided, and I also said that I might be right; I might be wrong; I might be somewhere in the middle. I thought that would temper my words, but perhaps the words were too strong to be tempered and should have been rethought.

 

And please, do tell me if I am ever out of line. As I hope I have shown here, I usually take criticism well (unless, of course, it comes from a Christian trying to manipulate me).

 

@ nightflight: I don't think I'm too hard on myself. I was never supposed to amount to anything according to most people, but I pushed myself and now teach in a university, write articles that get published, speak several languages, and sing. I am also out of the closet, an atheist, and a person who usually (although not always) has his OCD under control. O.K., I don't have a husband and have not had sex in many years, but one cannot have everything. If I had not been hard on myself, I would never have accomplished any of this. Thank you, though, for the kind thought.

 

@ QuidEstCaritas?: Thank you for the post!

 

@ woodsmoke: As I have said before, this is the only place where I can talk about ex-Christian issues with my specific gay and OCD twist. I am afraid that I really am shackled to the Internet for the support I crave. Perhaps it should not be this way, but it is.

 

@ Neon Genesis : Thank you, too, for your kind words. I hear what you are saying, and I am glad that, like many here, you feel good about your growing skills in your debates with Christians on the board. It isn't what I want, though. My days are already packed, and I can't waste the energy on Christian drones. They are not worth it.

 

@ Phanta: Thank you for the kind words--but I fear that my starting this thread may have been a bit manipulative in addition to its being a way to deal with the hurt. At least, that's what I get reading some of the comments here. How to do the one without being manipulative or rubbing mods the wrong way is a mystery to me at the moment, but I hope I will figure it out in time.

 

I am sorry that you, too, suffer panic attacks.

 

@ Taphophilia: Thank you for understanding!

 

@ Loren: Please don't feel that you have to apologize. And I am sorry that you have had so many challenges in your life.

 

Hans (assuming that is HanSolo) is the person who put a stop to my being attacked Sunday, and I am grateful. Pitchu is one of the people on this board I would most like to know better, and I do understand she is on hiatus right now.

 

I really like your approach to moderation and what you wrote in your post.

 

@ Kyle: Not helpful.

 

@ ShallowByThyGame: I admire those of you who are comfortable with yourselves; I am only halfway there but hope to get there eventually. Again, that is why I am on the board. If a fellow ex-Christian lashed out at me, I would be calm (as I am now) and compassionate (as I have been a number of times on this board when someone said something to me that really was not called for). Well, most of the time--perhaps not all of the time since I am only human. I am the same way with liberal-thinking Christians, but I just have not learned to be that way with the Holy Rollers. It's as if everything I suffered comes back in a second once they mock me.

 

@ Midnight-mindwanderings: Thank you for your supportive post. I am sorry that you have panic attacks as well.

 

As I mentioned, I will be staying out of News and Current Events since I know myself too well--and know that doing so is the only way to prevent a repeat performance.

 

@ DevaLight: Thank you!

 

@ Tabula Rasa: I am soooooooo glad that you wrote what you did. As an OCD person, I am definitely at risk of relapsing back into Christianity, and preaching Christians can easily make me doubt myself no matter how logical my position. OCD is called "the doubting disease" for a reason.

[HRDWarrior]

I haven't read the thread in question, but there have been a couple times when I started to get rubbed wrong on a thread. My response was to "unwatch" the thread and resist the urge to keep going back there. Granted, I'm not dealing with any issues such as OCD, so I can't relate to what it's like, so what I do may not work well for you.

 

The other thing is to stay away from areas where the debates are allowed. I am still going through that anger phase (actually it's getting worse which I'm finding a bit odd atm), so therefore I tend not to post in those areas very often. The one time I started to get into it with abi I just finally ignored the thread since I was likely to start lashing out. He seems to have a knack for getting under your skin since I've been on forums for years now, and seldom have someone who annoys me so easily - may just be his way of coming across. But that being the case, I just avoid him (or those types of people) - if I don't go there, then I don't need to worry about getting my feathers all ruffled.

 

Just my two cents...I think you're a sensitive soul, and although I haven't read a ton of your threads, I've enjoyed the ones I have.

[Vomit Comet]

I'd lean towards Christians being on a tighter leash. As in, they get hammered faster and harder when they're being ass-hats. Who says we have to be fair? We've already taken enough shit from them in our real lives. Well, that's just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

[qec]

I'd lean towards Christians being on a tighter leash. As in, they get hammered faster and harder when they're being ass-hats. Who says we have to be fair? We've already taken enough shit from them in our real lives. Well, that's just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

 

 

Sounds like a damn good 2 cents to me. Fuck 'em. They fucked us long enough.

[Guest]

 

The other thing is to stay away from areas where the debates are allowed. I am still going through that anger phase (actually it's getting worse which I'm finding a bit odd atm),

 

You're not alone. I deconverted over 15 years ago and my anger seems to get stronger every year too. I also stay away from the debating forums.

 

And I also vote for a tighter leash on xtians. I remember last year a xtian professor joined as an Atheist doing a study on reasons we deconverted. Upon doing the study however, it was clear he only wanted to find out what kind of a xtian we were before we left. I researched him a bit more and found out he was a Ass. professor at a xtian college and I called him out on it. He ignored/dodged all my questions, then asked a moderator to remove the entire thread, AND IT WAS REMOVED!

 

This still angers me that a lying xtian got what he wanted here, after being dishonest from the beginning. I feel they should have little to no rights here. This is a site to heal from them, they should not be given preferential treatment AT ALL.

[Mike D]

Well, I have read both threads and have been thoroughly entertained.

 

Hehe, sorry but I couldn't help laughing my ass off when I saw this.

 

Seriously though - Ameen,

 

I am also gay and was also a Christian and had to endure the same crap that every gay person who was a Christian did, so your experience is probably not so unique. So now that you're out of Christianity, why take any shit from Christians? I sure don't. If one is bothering you, simply tell him/her to go fuck him/herself (and the horse they rode in on), and then put the asswipe on ignore. Personally I rather enjoy the exchange with Christians, especially when they start acting like a douchebag. What better way to get some aggression out?

[Legion]

I want to own a dramallama of my very own.

 

I wonder if they’re expensive.

[Loren]

One thing I would like to point out which hasn't been mentioned by others yet, is that I have long seen a real value in the bad behavior of Christians being seen on this site (And others.) by the more thoughtful and compassionate Christians. In my time here, I've become aware of a number of Christians who, because of their own sheltered experience, were truly unaware of how abusive other Christians could be to non-Christians, let alone how common it is. I've had Christians express shock and dismay, as well as shame by association with such stuff. I've also had them tell me what an eye-opener it was for them. While they were upset by the bad behavior, they were also glad to have seen it. Among other things, it served to dispel for them a number of doctrinally taught assumptions about how believers and unbelievers behaved because they (The decent Christians.) had never been confronted with anything which would cause them to question the truth of what they were indoctrinated with.

 

For the Christians who were not only compassionate but also thoughtful, this resulted in more than simply waking up to the fact that some Christians are assholes. Because they were the type of Christians who took actual adult responsibility for their own religion, it forced them to ask such questions as, "So where is the fruit of the Holy Spirit in that asshole Christian's life? Doesn't Jesus care about how that guy's actions are reflecting on Him? How come my Pastor didn't tell me the truth about this?" and other such pertinent questions which go right to the heart of doctrine.

 

On a regular basis, we see members start threads in Rants about how they tried to engage in some sort of theological questioning on some Christian board, only to get instantly banned, have their accounts and posts deleted, and so forth, even when they had been perfectly even-toned, respectful and downright meek, simply because the mods on the Christian board wouldn't tolerate anything other than complete fawning sycophancy for Jesus and utterly uncritical acceptance of the doctrinal interpretations of the denizens of that particular site.

 

That kind of moderation approach, as well as that type of Christianity always impressed me (Even as a Christian. Perhaps especially as a Christian.) as being thoroughly cowardly. They don't realize how profoundly they undermine their own credibility when they respond with such instant and complete hysterical fear to anything which deviates one nanometer from their own personal position.

 

One of the things which initially attracted me to this site was the evident free speech ethic here. While there are certainly boundaries which posters are not allowed to cross without repercussions, there is still a clear respect for posters to express their thoughts as freely as possible, even if they're mindless fundy opinions. Posts are let to stand, and that's a public record of what an idiot they might be, or how selfish and self-serving they are, using their religion as an excuse; a cardboard cut-out for them to hide behind while they throw rocks and then claim, "Hey, I'm only the messenger. These are God's opinions."

 

Frequently enough, we see some new member make their introduction with something like, "I'm just coming out of Christianity and this is my first post, but I've been lurking and reading here for six months."

 

Who knows how many decent-hearted Christians have been forced to question their own religion in some way precisely because they saw some nasty, ignorant, selfish moron-for-Jesus spewing sewage in the name of Christ here?

 

It truly does serve a purpose for it to be seen, as well as how we respond to it. I've been told specifically by some who were Christian (At least when they first got here.), that one of the things which hit them was that the general behavior of the ex-Christian members was more "Christlike" than the behavior of the Christians.

 

The bad behavior should be visible and public. It serves a purpose. (Edit: Except in places that are meant to be safe places.)

[agnosticator]

I empathize with what you are going through in dealing with insensitive christians, Ameen. I have some friends with emotional problems who also can't deal with their shit.

 

I think it takes alot of courage and grit to handle your family crisis while juggling being a Moderator here Loren. I want to thank all the Mods here and also Dave, for their dedication and support. I don't even have enough time to read all that I wish to in the forum and main blog, so I am in awe of everyone responsible for this great site!

[Loren]

@ Loren: Please don't feel that you have to apologize. And I am sorry that you have had so many challenges in your life.

 

Hans (assuming that is HanSolo) is the person who put a stop to my being attacked Sunday, and I am grateful. Pitchu is one of the people on this board I would most like to know better, and I do understand she is on hiatus right now.

 

I really like your approach to moderation and what you wrote in your post.

Thank you, Ameen! Yes, Hans is HanSolo. He's a fine man and has a very good grip on putting principles ahead of personalities. And Pitchu has been unofficial board mom, and Woodsmoke's official board mom for some years. If Pitchu wasn't Woody's board mom, the rest of us would occasionally have to drag him into an alley and beat him with a Mormon. Sometimes we do that anyway, whether he deserves it or not, because frankly, it's just kind of fun.

 

I just wanted to give you some personal support regarding Abiyoyo. I agreed with the essence of everything you said to him. I thought his "apologies" were lame and transparently self-serving, including the last one where you gave him the benefit of the doubt on it. That was more than I would have done. It seems that there is a huge preponderance of Christians whose idea of apologizing has entirely to do with getting themselves off the hook so they can forget about it and move on, with no awareness that perhaps the result of their action for which they're apologizing may in fact be a red flag calling for some actual self-examination.

 

As a Christian, when I saw that kind of self-serving apology from a fellow Christian, it only convinced me that they weren't truly saved. The way I understood it, when you're saved, Jesus comes to live within you, making you more like him. And for me, Jesus was always defined by God-sized compassion. The whole concept of repentance is predicated on the idea of understanding the damage I did to another by my own sin to the point where I come to hate that sin. When I reach that point, the well-being of the other person takes clear and potent precedence over my own, in my own heart. Far beyond just apologizing and skating, this state of awareness moves me to want to look for any way I can undo the damage, and even if I never get forgiveness from the other person, then I'll live with that, so long as I can make things better for them. If I have to live with not being forgiven by them, as well as things such as loss of public respect and so on, then so be it. After all, I do deserve it. If I get forgiveness, it's pure gravy, and any Christian absolutely should understand that concept at a deep level, since it's so central to the various aspects of the doctrines revolving around Jesus' death on the cross. So not only does the ability to have compassion for others grow within me, so also does the hatred of injustice grow, as well as caring enough to bother to see it, even when I'm not involved directly in the situation.

 

I see your reaction to Abiyoyo as being a version of what I feel toward most of the Christians who spend more than a couple of months on this site: The longer they spend here, with all the opportunities to see just how much damage Christians and Christianity has done to real people, the more aghast I am at their evident willingness to look right past all that pain, just so they can go play grab-ass and make smart remarks in the fora.

 

What I heard you ask, with your jaw on the floor was, "How can you not care enough to see the pain and yet still call yourself a Christian with a straight face???"

 

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, my entire ass.

 

Although it is perfectly reasonable to ask such a question of a shallow, self-serving "Christian" like Abiyoyo and others due to the claims of Christianity, it's still not reasonable to expect a shallow person of any kind to be able to get to a deeper level of awareness than they are actually able to reach.

 

Whether by choice or not, some people are little more than ambulatory bundles of fears, reflexes and appetites. There is no discernible true cognitive process going on within them, let alone an actual moral awareness. I firmly say that this pretty much defines them as a dumb animal, even though they may, more or less, know how to work a keyboard.

 

Where I'm going with this observation is back to your perception in your other thread about people not responding to you. It occurred to me that there may be a related perception that when an idiot like Abiyoyo does what comes naturally for him and few people take exception to it, that it might be taken, at least on the emotional level, as tacit support for his diarrhea. Or if not support, then at least a "looking the other way."

 

I think that what happens on this site in cases like that is more that the actual sapient beings here know how pointless it is to beat a sheep for being too stupid to not walk into a hole it can't get out of. Likewise, it's futile to try to get an extremely shallow, selfish person to be morally deeper than they are able.

[Franko47]

Loren

it truly does serve a purpose for it to be seen, as well as how we respond to it. I've been told specifically by some who were Christian (At least when they first got here.), that one of the things which hit them was that the general behavior of the ex-Christian members was more "Christlike" than the behavior of the Christians.

 

The bad behavior should be visible and public. It serves a purpose. (Edit: Except in places that are meant to be safe places.)

 

 

A good point. When I got here I was a little surprised at how much interaction there really was between Christian and quasi-Christian members, and that some of them even seem to enjoy this place.

 

I think at times we all have those little vulnerabilities that can blind-side us....there are other members besides Ameen who have had a rough time of it from their Christian experience, or even downright abuse with Christianity and religion being the causal reasons.

 

At the same time, though, we all have to learn to trust our friends and forum brethren; I don't think very many of us are going to stand by and let another member be abusive to someone who's just rrying to express themselves and share. Some members can handle themselves with a great degree of toughness; but most of us don't really want to draw blood in these little arguments.