My Fundy Ex-Wife

[Abiyoyo]

I have one comment on the smoking. OK so it is an excerpt from a script called "Agnes of God":

 

MARTHA

Does my smoking bother you?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

No, it reminds me.

 

MARTHA

Would you like one? Huh?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

I'd love one.

 

Martha hands her a cigarette and lights it for her. Mother Miriam coughs a lot. Martha pats her on the back.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

I'm out of prac...

(cough)

... practice.

(cough)

 

MARTHA

All right?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Fine thanks...

 

MARTHA

Do you suppose the saints would have

smoked if tobacco had been popular

back then?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Undoubtedly. Not the ascetics of course

but, well Saint Thomas More...

 

MARTHA

(chuckles)

Long, thin and filtered.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Saint Ignatius would smoke cigars and

stub them out on the soles of his bare

feet.

(they roar with laughter)

And of course (distorted)

 

MARTHA

Hand rolled.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Even Christ would partake socially.

 

MARTHA

Saint Peter?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Pipe!

 

MARTHA

Right...

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Mary Magdelen?

 

MARTHA

(imitating)

Oh, you've come a long way baby.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

And Saint John would chew tobacco.

 

More laughter, then the moment because more serious.

 

MARTHA

Right.

(a pause)

What do you suppose today's saints

are smoking?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

There are no saints today. Good people

yes, but extraordinarily good people...

those I'm afraid we are sorely lacking.

[Abiyoyo]

Oh course you're welcome here. I consider you an honorary heretic, and that makes you OK - stinky cigarettes and all, soot boy.

 

BTW, I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here. Think about it. I'll bet I've got more peace about living then they do, since I see the fullness of life available now. "If only I win the lottery, then I'd be happy!"

 

I'll bet that's why you like us here. We are figuring out how to live life without looking for some miracle to happen.

That is exactly how my ex thinks of it. She used to have a shirt that said, 'One day my prince will come', it was pink.

 

I mean, Isn't there a verse that says not to say, 'I wish the end were here' or something, I will have to look it up.

[Legion]

That was a nice quote in my opinion Phanta.

[Antlerman]

Oh course you're welcome here. I consider you an honorary heretic, and that makes you OK - stinky cigarettes and all, soot boy.

 

BTW, I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here. Think about it. I'll bet I've got more peace about living then they do, since I see the fullness of life available now. "If only I win the lottery, then I'd be happy!"

 

I'll bet that's why you like us here. We are figuring out how to live life without looking for some miracle to happen.

That is exactly how my ex thinks of it. She used to have a shirt that said, 'One day my prince will come', it was pink.

 

I mean, Isn't there a verse that says not to say, 'I wish the end were here' or something, I will have to look it up.

One that comes to mind (not yours) is "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." This is talking of the sufficiency of the day and finding truth in the moment here and now. To me the whole focus on the rapture seems to be the exact opposite of this. And the earlier verse in the sermon about not laying up treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt, does not suggest hating the world, but simply realizing that beauty and truth and meaning are not found in material gains. It has nothing to do with turning your back on it and seeking escape.

 

But the sad truth is, that your typical Rapture-seeking fundamentalists are usually the most materialistic, self-seeking, earth-hating, miserable souls to infest the planet with their brand of self-serving, socicentric, Christian-Consumerist religion. Again, where's the beauty? Where's the fruit? To them 'seeking the kingdom of god' is where they get all their happiness in selfish gain realized. They have religion, not spirituality.

[NotBlinded]

I am not a fundamentalist Mongo. That is the difference. I believe if the rapture comes tomorrow, I will still be here because of my sin in my life. She, and most other Christians believe that people that are current believers in Christ, will be raptured.

Personally, I think it's the fundamentalists that are wrong so of course you will be here, but so will they. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? Come on...you know Abi.

[Guest end3]

Oh course you're welcome here. I consider you an honorary heretic, and that makes you OK - stinky cigarettes and all, soot boy.

 

BTW, I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here. Think about it. I'll bet I've got more peace about living then they do, since I see the fullness of life available now. "If only I win the lottery, then I'd be happy!"

 

I'll bet that's why you like us here. We are figuring out how to live life without looking for some miracle to happen.

That is exactly how my ex thinks of it. She used to have a shirt that said, 'One day my prince will come', it was pink.

 

I mean, Isn't there a verse that says not to say, 'I wish the end were here' or something, I will have to look it up.

One that comes to mind (not yours) is "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." This is talking of the sufficiency of the day and finding truth in the moment here and now. To me the whole focus on the rapture seems to be the exact opposite of this. And the earlier verse in the sermon about not laying up treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt, does not suggest hating the world, but simply realizing that beauty and truth and meaning are not found in material gains. It has nothing to do with turning your back on it and seeking escape.

 

But the sad truth is, that your typical Rapture-seeking fundamentalists are usually the most materialistic, self-seeking, earth-hating, miserable souls to infest the planet with their brand of self-serving, socicentric, Christian-Consumerist religion. Again, where's the beauty? Where's the fruit? To them 'seeking the kingdom of god' is where they get all their happiness in selfish gain realized. They have religion, not spirituality.

 

With respect to that verse you just quoted, please consider that relief from the burden might be on God's timetable and not on the Christians. "Seek first" it says, and all these things will be given to you (on His schedule perhaps....which may be today or may be post natural death). The point being, it would be possible for the saved person not to feel the healing of God unless the Christian has reached that point and continue acting as if unsaved.

[Mongo]

I believe if the rapture comes tomorrow, I will still be here because of my sin in my life.

 

Abiyoyo,

 

I'm confused and I'm asking questions. Let me explain.

 

The key to my confusion is your belief in a literal rapture. In my experience and reading I find that the only people who give rapture theology serious consideration are fundamentalists.

 

I have encountered only one exception to this observation; the New Apostolic Church. http://en.wikipedia....postolic_Church I have similar questions about them as I asked of you. Maybe they can serve as a proxy for discussion and make this less personal?

 

Through family I have visited the New Apostolic Church here in Southern Ontario. They have a big church in Kitchener in Ontario and their roots hail from Germany/Switzerland. I interpret it through the lens of my Catholic upbringing and Pentecostal teen/adult background.

 

When I have gone to a NAC church the sermons always emphasize the bride and bridegroom. I recognized this as dispensational teaching (a la Darby / Schoefield). Wikipedia says this:

 

Premillennialism and Second Coming of Christ are to the fore of the New Apostolic doctrines.

 

As a lay person I’m no expert but here is what I’ve learned about end times theology of the last 200 years. Pre, mid and post tribulation theology is part of a system of belief in “progressive revelation” in that god reveals himself in different time periods (Dispensations), each one focusing on a different characteristic of god. You probably know all that but for those following along I include it.

 

According to Darby and modern dispationalists like Hal Lindsay dispensational theory hinges on a literal interpretation of the bible not merely the book of Revelations. In their view, dispensationalism falls to pieces unless you interpret the bible literally. It is the key and can’t be discarded.

 

On Dispensationalism Wikipedia says this about who the adherants are:

Adherents: Held by groups who believe the scriptures to be inerrant and often more Arminian leaning. Held by many Protestant groups who take what they believe is a more literal interpretation of the Bible, including many, but not most, Pentecostal Charismatic and Baptist churches and Independent and 'Non-denominational' churches as well as a few of the Presbyterian Church and Wesleyan/Methodist churches. Also held by most groups that are labelled Fundamentalists. The more politically active sections within this eschatological view often strongly support the Christian Zionism movement and the associated political, military and economic support for Israel which comes from certain groups within American politics and parts of the Christian right. This view is also held in a modified form by groups such as the Latter Day Saints, Christadelphians and Adventist splinter groups such as the Branch Davidians. One of the main tenets of Dispensationalism is the strict dichotomy that dispensationalists claim exists between Israel and the New Testament Church. This is expressly denied by Covenant Theologians who claim the existence of a relationship via “Spiritual Israel.” A dispensationalist would claim that none of the prophecies pertaining to Israel are or will be fulfilled in or by the New Testament Church. Covenant Theologians would claim that some of the prophecies pertaining to Israel are, will, or may be fulfilled in or by the New Testament Church. see supersessionism.

 

Lifestyle wise the New Apostolic Church have members with a similar view as yours toward smoking and social drinking.

 

Interestingly, despite what Wikipedia says about NAC’s views on Premillennialism and the Second Coming of Christ, their web site reveals statements of doctrine that seek to distance the NAC from modern rapture theology. They seem to be slowly moving towards an allegorical and interpretive approach to an old doctrine.

 

So whatever version of end times dispensationalism one believes in, I see a fundamentalist root. Your wife embraces it, NAC reinterprets it somewhat and it is not clear to me how you embrace dispensationalism and reject fundamentalism.

 

Mongo

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

So whatever version of end times dispensationalism one believes in, I see a fundamentalist root. Your wife embraces it, NAC reinterprets it somewhat and it is not clear to me how you embrace dispensationalism and reject fundamentalism.

 

Mongo

 

Dunno Mongo. Maybe technically I am a fundamentalist. What would be the wording then for a person that believes what I believe? I don't believe the Bible is inerrant. I thought that was one of the main requirements of being a fundamentalist?

 

Fundamentalist don't usually read outside the Bible, and they think the KJV is apart of the whole inerrant thing too right?

[NotBlinded]

What would be the wording then for a person that believes what I believe?

A truth-seeker?

[Antlerman]

Oh course you're welcome here. I consider you an honorary heretic, and that makes you OK - stinky cigarettes and all, soot boy.

 

BTW, I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here. Think about it. I'll bet I've got more peace about living then they do, since I see the fullness of life available now. "If only I win the lottery, then I'd be happy!"

 

I'll bet that's why you like us here. We are figuring out how to live life without looking for some miracle to happen.

That is exactly how my ex thinks of it. She used to have a shirt that said, 'One day my prince will come', it was pink.

 

I mean, Isn't there a verse that says not to say, 'I wish the end were here' or something, I will have to look it up.

One that comes to mind (not yours) is "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." This is talking of the sufficiency of the day and finding truth in the moment here and now. To me the whole focus on the rapture seems to be the exact opposite of this. And the earlier verse in the sermon about not laying up treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt, does not suggest hating the world, but simply realizing that beauty and truth and meaning are not found in material gains. It has nothing to do with turning your back on it and seeking escape.

 

But the sad truth is, that your typical Rapture-seeking fundamentalists are usually the most materialistic, self-seeking, earth-hating, miserable souls to infest the planet with their brand of self-serving, socicentric, Christian-Consumerist religion. Again, where's the beauty? Where's the fruit? To them 'seeking the kingdom of god' is where they get all their happiness in selfish gain realized. They have religion, not spirituality.

 

With respect to that verse you just quoted, please consider that relief from the burden might be on God's timetable and not on the Christians. "Seek first" it says, and all these things will be given to you (on His schedule perhaps....which may be today or may be post natural death). The point being, it would be possible for the saved person not to feel the healing of God unless the Christian has reached that point and continue acting as if unsaved.

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? ..... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." So, your saying that God will provide these things after the die? Perhaps they did die because it wasn't 'provided' and they starved, dehydrated, and froze to death?

 

What I get from this is not a lesson about "burdens" being lifted for you, but about letting go of worries and concerns eating you alive - that you should seek a centering peace in your life, and in so doing, without 'spinning and toiling' you function in a natural way, more in tune with the workings of life. "Consider the lilies..."

 

What I find interesting is in how the typical Christian mindset looks to God to 'lift the burden' from them. Whereas what this is saying, and what any spiritual pursuit is about, is finding it in yourself. They look to sky for relief, whereas the sky is inside them, and it will be THEY who act. And that action, can be one of not worrying. To me to look to God to take your problems from you, to 'lift your burden' in the sense of removing it, is to miss the point of it entirely. It's not growth in you, but a transference of a childhood view of mom and dad as the relivers of pain for you, to God being that. It's mythical transference.

 

It comes to that same principle of 'love God, and love your neighbor as yourself' You look first to renew yourself in spirit, and in so doing you move outward to others through that. "Consider the lilies..."

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

[Guest end3]

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? ..... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." So, your saying that God will provide these things after the die? Perhaps they did die because it wasn't 'provided' and they starved, dehydrated, and froze to death?

 

I am understanding you to say that God is withholding the provision? Sorry if that is not what you meant. My history of comprehension sucks. What I am trying to describe is the choices in our life are difficult. Perhaps we do not understand how our decisions and resultant actions are intended to fit in relation to the Kingdom....the Unity perhaps? I am saying that it might surely be possible to understand a choice as rationalized to be the truth in our minds, but be unwilling or just plain unaware of how this decision has lead us on a path contrary to the True Understanding and Unity. I would then think it possible to spend your entire life "missing" the true meaning. If we could ensure the removal of sin, then I do believe K that this unity/truth would be self evident. But we have Satan for now....from my Christian standpoint.

 

What I get from this is not a lesson about "burdens" being lifted for you, but about letting go of worries and concerns eating you alive - that you should seek a centering peace in your life, and in so doing, without 'spinning and toiling' you function in a natural way, more in tune with the workings of life. "Consider the lilies..."

 

I would have to go read the verse in context, but I think as the centering peace as a Christian comes through a wanting to stop the hurt, the lack of peace inside. I believe the restoration of peace happens on His timetable K, IMO. I don't know why.

 

What I find interesting is in how the typical Christian mindset looks to God to 'lift the burden' from them. Whereas what this is saying, and what any spiritual pursuit is about, is finding it in yourself. They look to sky for relief, whereas the sky is inside them, and it will be THEY who act.

 

Again, I believe that often we don't understand the mechanism....that being a binary choice. And sometimes the choices we make are what we perceive to be the most God fearing choice we could make. The deception is evil.

 

 

And that action, can be one of not worrying.

 

yes, faith in God, imo.

 

To me to look to God to take your problems from you, to 'lift your burden' in the sense of removing it, is to miss the point of it entirely. It's not growth in you, but a transference of a childhood view of mom and dad as the relivers of pain for you, to God being that. It's mythical transference.

 

That is fine, but let me present the evidence of your own transformation. Maybe?

 

It comes to that same principle of 'love God, and love your neighbor as yourself' You look first to renew yourself in spirit, and in so doing you move outward to others through that. "Consider the lilies..."

 

Amen brother.

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

 

Makes you want to laugh....but mostly cry.

 

(((Keith)))

 

ed

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

 

End3, AM, the verse you quoted is the main makeup of who I am. I have intensely studied the surroundings of this verse. As AM said, I agree in that this was meant for the here and now.

 

Does anyone understand how much this verse by Christ goes against the rest of the NT? Paul is the main one, and his edification handbook as I like to call it. I see Peter and James as well, wanting to keep the Jewish life preserved in Christianity. I really honestly think that Christianity is overrated

 

Think about it, the Jerusalem Decree basically gave Gentiles(most of us) a few list of rules to follow, while we believe Christ was the Son of God. Yet, 2000 years later, we judge as if we are Jews?

 

Paul was involved in this discussion of the Jerusalem Decree, and James condoned it, so, Isn't that all a Gentile is really held to?

 

Of course, we have Paul, and his edification of the establishment of peoples following Christ throughout the NT, but, IMO following Paul's word's literally as the Word of God would be of the same effect as following Moses word's as the Word of God. These are both 'men of God' in similar fashions. This would not be a pretty picture if we followed Moses word's literally.

 

I have heard Christians say that it is the Holy Spirit that guided the New Age Christianity, and that it is what God wants.

[Antlerman]

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? ..... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." So, your saying that God will provide these things after the die? Perhaps they did die because it wasn't 'provided' and they starved, dehydrated, and froze to death?

 

I am understanding you to say that God is withholding the provision? Sorry if that is not what you meant. My history of comprehension sucks.

No. I wasn't suggesting that. It was a point of illustration that if what you said that in the context of that verse God would provide for them after they died, then humorously speaking, their death must have come because God intended to provide food, drink, and clothing to them - after death, which would have been cause by not having those things and why they died! (It was meant as humorous irony).

 

What I am trying to describe is the choices in our life are difficult. Perhaps we do not understand how our decisions and resultant actions are intended to fit in relation to the Kingdom....the Unity perhaps? I am saying that it might surely be possible to understand a choice as rationalized to be the truth in our minds, but be unwilling or just plain unaware of how this decision has lead us on a path contrary to the True Understanding and Unity. I would then think it possible to spend your entire life "missing" the true meaning. If we could ensure the removal of sin, then I do believe K that this unity/truth would be self evident.

A few things about this. One of the things I've come to realize, is that whole existential knowing. To rationally analyze a choice to the point that you trust solely in your rational processing of information, will always leave you with at best a well informed 'guess'. But what is being missed too often in reasoning alone, is not listening with that part of you that listens with 'other ears'. The 'intuitive'.

 

It's not emotionalism, or impulsiveness, or impetuousness, but rather much like a partner in a dance, hearing the language of motion in the interactions between yourself and your partner. The spirit leads, the mind interprets, the body follows. Life is like a dance with Life. It's not merely an analysis of the mechanics of the dance, but Dance Itself. Being a participant in it, with not just reason, but with the soul. It's that learning to listen to the soul, beyond the rational, that allows the experience of it, its Life, its motion, its Soul, to become a part of you, and you of It. It's participation. Not analysis.

 

So where does 'true understanding' come from? How do you attain that, how do you apprehend that? By both reason and spirit. There is a time to understand 'how', then there is the time to listen to the music, and to your Partner.

 

Indeed one can spend their whole life missing it.

 

What is sin? Not living .

 

I would have to go read the verse in context, but I think as the centering peace as a Christian comes through a wanting to stop the hurt, the lack of peace inside. I believe the restoration of peace happens on His timetable K, IMO. I don't know why.

Actually End, that restoration of peace is entirely in our timetable. Trust me. It doesn't change, its never 'withheld', its always there. It is only us that stands in the way between us and the apprehension of it. There is no 'withholding'.

 

Honestly, imaging "God" as some being with a 'plan' for you, is to miss what IS. It's only you and your timetable. It is simple choice. The music is always there.

 

To me to look to God to take your problems from you, to 'lift your burden' in the sense of removing it, is to miss the point of it entirely. It's not growth in you, but a transference of a childhood view of mom and dad as the relivers of pain for you, to God being that. It's mythical transference.

 

That is fine, but let me present the evidence of your own transformation. Maybe?

Indeed. I'm speaking from experience.

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

 

Makes you want to laugh....but mostly cry.

 

(((Keith)))

 

ed

Mostly cry for those who are held prisoner by the religion. I said to someone recently, that I wished I could have forgone that long disruption from the shackles of the Religion that is Christianity, but I'm just happy I have found that truth is not theirs, nor any other ideological system's, and that I can live that within me, by my choice. Do we want freedom?

[Mongo]

Dunno Mongo.

 

Great answer! And I understand better now.

 

I don't care if you do or don't call yourself a fundamentalist. (I wouldn't call you a fundy) I was asking what you think and why. Your answer is truly refreshing.

 

Thanks!

 

Mongo

[Guest end3]

Mostly cry for those who are held prisoner by the religion. I said to someone recently, that I wished I could have forgone that long disruption from the shackles of the Religion that is Christianity, but I'm just happy I have found that truth is not theirs, nor any other ideological system's, and that I can live that within me, by my choice. Do we want freedom?

 

How then are we to translate this Love? I know certainly that you would wish this for others.

[Antlerman]

Mostly cry for those who are held prisoner by the religion. I said to someone recently, that I wished I could have forgone that long disruption from the shackles of the Religion that is Christianity, but I'm just happy I have found that truth is not theirs, nor any other ideological system's, and that I can live that within me, by my choice. Do we want freedom?

 

How then are we to translate this Love? I know certainly that you would wish this for others.

It's not easy, and it is. Sincerity. Learning to be sincere to yourself, learning to be true to what is in you heart that has integrity to yourself and others, which is grace and power. It's not some religious ideology, that is doctrines and codes, but the reality of the heart. How we 'translate this', is essentially just being true. Living truth.

 

Doctrines and theologies are all about finding value and meaning for ourselves through belonging to some group, but they fail in something far more 'eternal'. They are at best distractions. The hard truth, the easier truth, is sincerity. Truth alone that is ours in the face of existence. We live in sincerity, and become it. We transcend ourselves and embrace others.

[Mongo]

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? ..... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." So, your saying that God will provide these things after the die? Perhaps they did die because it wasn't 'provided' and they starved, dehydrated, and froze to death?

 

edit....

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

²⁸ "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

I always found this verse hard to figure out in the Pentacostal paradigm. For me it was feast and famine. When you are in the valley, you pray and read the bible until you "break through" and then hoot and holler while you're on the mountain top and up and down and up and down...

It was a lot of work sometimes.

 

Now... if I frame Jesus as a liberator of Jews from their religion then these words of Jesus make more sense to me.

 

It is like he is saying, "Let go of your rules, stop what you are doing. Not just mentally but physically stop doing all those religious things and take time to be who you are, and enjoy life."

 

Mongo

[mwc]

Dunno Mongo. Maybe technically I am a fundamentalist. What would be the wording then for a person that believes what I believe? I don't believe the Bible is inerrant. I thought that was one of the main requirements of being a fundamentalist?

 

Fundamentalist don't usually read outside the Bible, and they think the KJV is apart of the whole inerrant thing too right?

You are part Restorationist:

In Christianity the term restorationism, sometimes called Christian primitivism, refers to the belief that a purer form of Christianity should be restored using the early church as a model.

And part Fundamentalist:

Fundamentalist Christianity, also known as Christian fundamentalism or fundamentalist evangelicalism, is a movement that arose mainly within British and American Protestantism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among conservative evangelical Christians, who, in a reaction to liberal theology, actively affirmed a fundamental set of Christian beliefs: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism", seeing it as a pejorative term for historic Christian doctrine,[1] while to others it has become a banner of pride.

You don't hold the inerrancy position but lean towards more a literalism position:

Biblical literalism (also called Biblicism or Biblical fundamentalism) is the interpretation or translation of the explicit and primary sense of words in the Bible.[1][2] A literal, Biblical interpretation is associated with the fundamentalist and evangelical hermeneutical approach to Scripture, and is used by most conservative Christians today.[3] The essence of this approach focuses upon the author's intent as the primary meaning of the text.[4] Literal interpretation does place emphasis upon the referential aspect of the words or terms in the text. It does not, however, mean a complete denial of literary aspects, genre, or figures of speech within the text (e.g., parable, allegory, simile, or metaphor).[5] Also literalism does not necessarily lead to total and complete agreement upon one single interpretation for any given passage.

How else does the snake be both a snake and Satan at the same time? And how else does the Genesis account become a literal historical event in the first place? It's not inerrant but it's essentially literal.

 

You appear to fall near the "fundy" end of the spectrum from what you written lately (minus the inerrancy claims). The use of non-canonical texts, and the ideas you've formed around them, seems to place you more in the restoration camp (which seems to be what everyone claims to be doing these days). But who knows? It seems there's no clear-cut xian anymore.

 

mwc

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

You appear to fall near the "fundy" end of the spectrum from what you written lately (minus the inerrancy claims). The use of non-canonical texts, and the ideas you've formed around them, seems to place you more in the restoration camp (which seems to be what everyone claims to be doing these days). But who knows? It seems there's no clear-cut xian anymore.

 

mwc

 

I believe that Genesis is the Sumerian creation story with their God added to it and evolved into monotheism. I see it possible that the Bible is not the direct words of God but more the words of writers throughout time describing their God and their heritage.

 

I do have a fundamentalist view of the Prophetic Books of the Bible. I do see those books as a literal interpretation, in a spiritual realm, of future events. Does that make sense? Daniel for example and Isaac Newton. I see that as literal in prophecy, and it is something to be known, or understood in around the constraint of prophecy.

 

But, Paul for example. I do not see Paul's words literally, or inerrant, I just see them as stories about Paul edifying the early churches he had coordinated.

 

I am a little confused now though, because I always thought a fundamentalist would never look 'outside' the Bible for spiritual guidance, Biblical knowledge, or truths?

 

My thoughts on the virgin birth. I would like to believe that Christ was born a virgin, but am open to the possibility that he was not, and was a very anointed prophet, who God ordained as his Son.

 

Sometimes I also ponder that Jesus may have been what the Gnostic say he was by John's Apocryphon , the effable One that was sent from the One True God, but this contradicts Revelations? Or does it? I have been studying those two books for years now and still can't get a grasp on the two as far as being connected.

 

I would say they could be connected, but that would definitely define me as a Christian of heresy. I at this moment don't consider The Apocryphon of John as genuine. Christ said that false Christs and false prophets would arise to even fool the elect. Simon Magus was a false Christ, Todd Bentley's angel Emma-O is a false Christlike image, both saying they have great powers, each in their respected times.

 

So, I see it possible that John could've been one that was fooled, an elect, and wrote it down?

 

The reason I say that is because the Apocryphon of John goes against the rest of the Bible's story, and that he received it from an angel, whereas Revelations runs parallel with other Biblical stories, and he received it also from an angel.

[Antlerman]

²⁸ "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

I always found this verse hard to figure out in the Pentacostal paradigm. For me it was feast and famine. When you are in the valley, you pray and read the bible until you "break through" and then hoot and holler while you're on the mountain top and up and down and up and down...

It was a lot of work sometimes.

 

Now... if I frame Jesus as a liberator of Jews from their religion then these words of Jesus make more sense to me.

 

It is like he is saying, "Let go of your rules, stop what you are doing. Not just mentally but physically stop doing all those religious things and take time to be who you are, and enjoy life."

 

Mongo

The thing with Pentecostalism is that I don't consider all that "break through", or "getting the victory", as they express and pursue that to be ascending to higher spiritual levels. It's more a type of emotionalism, or perhaps better stated, it's more primal religion. It's the sort of 'lizard brain' religion, where you let go of higher level awareness and let nature pulse through you in undulating, near sexual experience. Yes, it pulls you out of the mundane world to another place, but that place is primal man. It's like the rush you get from sex.

 

I don't consider that sort of 'primal religion' to be something that moves us forward really, but more an escape backward. It's more a retreat, a regression. Going out in the forest and shouting at the moon, pounding your chest, and running naked in the night has much the same affect. That can be exhilarating and puts you in touch with something primitive in our evolution, but I don't see it anything lasting that can be incorporated into the real world, something that improves an evolving world and our evolving sense. This is why they are forced to be anti-intellectual if they want those types of primal experience to be a guiding religious system. It can't be incorporated, and therefore they must separate themselves socially and culturally.

 

When you understand that Pentecostal religion is really a blending of African tribal religions with Christianity, that whole drums and ecstasy sort of thing becomes quite apparent. Along with that, the whole focus on the 'going to a better home', mentality comes out of our past slave culture. There in fact was no hope in this world for them, and the Christian religion became focused on the better life then. But then I ask, why then do this wealthy white Americans driving their consumerist SUV's and living out in the suburbs where its all nice and the same, feel the need to adopt a religion to escape hopelessness in this world and get in touch with their ancient tribal identities? Wannabe mentality?

 

But more to your point, I think what the point was was that to not look to the religion, or to its rules, or to fitting into the social group, but to the truth inside, its there you find the power - there you find "God". As you get in touch with your 'evolved' self (as opposed to your primal-tribal forest man), than all these things become 'lighter' and less a burden as we find ourselves in the world and a part of the world on an existential level. It's finding your center that comes up from within and out into the world. This is very different than going to a church to 'find God', or even looking to a god 'up there' to descend to save you. It's going inside, rather than looking to something outside for salvation.

[mwc]

[snip]

Well, in light of that it appears that you're moving (moved?) away from fundamentalism. If you want labels you should probably poke around the various links and see what they mean so you can decide for yourself.

 

mwc

[par4dcourse]

An xian by any other name would still stink of xianity. (with apologies to Shakespeare)

[NotBlinded]

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? ..... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." So, your saying that God will provide these things after the die? Perhaps they did die because it wasn't 'provided' and they starved, dehydrated, and froze to death?

 

What I get from this is not a lesson about "burdens" being lifted for you, but about letting go of worries and concerns eating you alive - that you should seek a centering peace in your life, and in so doing, without 'spinning and toiling' you function in a natural way, more in tune with the workings of life. "Consider the lilies..."

 

What I find interesting is in how the typical Christian mindset looks to God to 'lift the burden' from them. Whereas what this is saying, and what any spiritual pursuit is about, is finding it in yourself. They look to sky for relief, whereas the sky is inside them, and it will be THEY who act. And that action, can be one of not worrying. To me to look to God to take your problems from you, to 'lift your burden' in the sense of removing it, is to miss the point of it entirely. It's not growth in you, but a transference of a childhood view of mom and dad as the relivers of pain for you, to God being that. It's mythical transference.

 

It comes to that same principle of 'love God, and love your neighbor as yourself' You look first to renew yourself in spirit, and in so doing you move outward to others through that. "Consider the lilies..."

 

It's kind of ironic, I understand the meaning of this only by stripping away all the religion attached to it. It's basic spiritual principles wrapped in a vehicle of a story for mass distribution. These are found in teachings around the world.

I so love to hear that told the way it was meant to be understood! I have never heard a preacher preach that in this manner or any other manner for that matter. I didn't go to church often, but I did work in one every week for over 12 years and we could hear the sermons over the intercom. I never remember it being preached at all.

 

Jesus pretty much went unheard.

[NotBlinded]

 

End3, AM, the verse you quoted is the main makeup of who I am. I have intensely studied the surroundings of this verse. As AM said, I agree in that this was meant for the here and now.

 

Does anyone understand how much this verse by Christ goes against the rest of the NT? Paul is the main one, and his edification handbook as I like to call it. I see Peter and James as well, wanting to keep the Jewish life preserved in Christianity. I really honestly think that Christianity is overrated

 

Think about it, the Jerusalem Decree basically gave Gentiles(most of us) a few list of rules to follow, while we believe Christ was the Son of God. Yet, 2000 years later, we judge as if we are Jews?

 

Paul was involved in this discussion of the Jerusalem Decree, and James condoned it, so, Isn't that all a Gentile is really held to?

 

Of course, we have Paul, and his edification of the establishment of peoples following Christ throughout the NT, but, IMO following Paul's word's literally as the Word of God would be of the same effect as following Moses word's as the Word of God. These are both 'men of God' in similar fashions. This would not be a pretty picture if we followed Moses word's literally.

 

I have heard Christians say that it is the Holy Spirit that guided the New Age Christianity, and that it is what God wants.

[NotBlinded]

Actually End, that restoration of peace is entirely in our timetable. Trust me. It doesn't change, its never 'withheld', its always there. It is only us that stands in the way between us and the apprehension of it. There is no 'withholding'.

That opens up the mystery in Genesis 3:24 doesn't it?

 

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is this "flaming sword"? Our own knowledge prevents us from obtaining what we thought we lost or was taken away from us. As you said, it hasn't gone anywhere, but our internal "burnings" (desire) that cut us to our core are keeping us away.