bird28 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Uggh, I was watching a show with grandma on the christian channel, and they had some interesting arguments to get athiests to believe. The banana one I read the counter-argument for, that bananas were breed by humans from a while plant and not so perfectly designed, but the no gold in China one... Basically that says that the statement "There is no gold in China" is equal to "There is no God." That to know for sure both statements, you would have to have perfect knowledge. I think I would say to that "Then how can you say there is no Zeus, or Thor, etc..." but is there a better counter to this? They were also pointing out to atheists their misdeeds, making them feel guilty and telling them they were going to hell too... how sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 That to know for sure both statements, you would have to have perfect knowledge. Your counter argument works just fine. The Christian has not gone through a painstaking process to rule out Thor, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu , Allah or any number of gods that are or have been worshiped. The Christian apologetic from the standpoint of complete knowledge seems to appeal to our laziness. "You don't want to have to learn everything in the universe in order to know for sure there is no god! Just go ahead and believe in God," like there is any reason to believe in a god. They should change the analogy to , "There are no unicorns in China." What reason is there to go chasing after the mythical , made up creature? Is it just because some people make the assertion "unicorns exist?" If 1000 people say, "unicorns exist" and provide no evidence other than, "i feel strongly that unicorns exist," how much of China should I tear up trying to find these unicorns. The tables could be turned onto the Christians as well. "Do you have definitive proof of the existence of God? Maybe there is evidence in that part of the universe which you haven't searched that totally demonstrates that what you are experiencing is a delusion." An atheistic position is never from a position of 100% complete knowledge. The reaction to Christians who say that complete knowledge is required should be, "Don't be silly!" A person can feel psychologically certain that their position is correct, but intellectually it is sufficient to say that, " as of yet, no compelling evidence or argument has been brought forth to suggest the existence of a god." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird28 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks, I'm still new to this. Any really good websites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I think one of the best is the Reasonable Doubts podcast and blog. Another great one is the broadcast of Atheist Experience. As you can tell, I prefer podcast oriented websites. The website of infidels.org may provide some information. The Atheist Nexus is a gateway to several Atheist websites, some of which may suit your particular needs. Have fun!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yes, you can turn that on it's head. They say you can't disprove Yahweh and are ignoring the infinite number of other made-up beings that you can not disprove because perfect knowledge is unattainable. Then they will try to show that there is evidence for Yahweh, but once they do that they've changed their argument...in effect ceding the point that not being able to disprove something is sufficient for believing in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Where is it in the bible that says we are without excuse (for not believeing in God)? The passage is talking about "creation". I'm not sure if these are one and the same passage, but the phrase "the rocks cry out his name" is another so-called "proof" for God and his creation. However, if you are going to use that logic, then you have to say that other galaxies are proof for aliens, combined with eyewitness accounts and abductions. Yet most Christians I know don't believe in aliens. BUT...they are without excuse! Other "proof" for God and his totally amazing designs are: The banana is shaped to fit in our finger "grooves" (if you will) The sun and moon appear to be the same size from earth's prospective Cleaner fish do not get eaten by sharks Pretty much all animal instincts Human emotion and morals The need for all (or most) cultures to have a deity to worship The list could go on and on for ever and ever! And for each of those "proofs" you could easily find a counter proof. The banana is one of how many foods to have ridges that are supposed to fit in my hand like a puzzle? One? And believe it or not but it doesn't naturally fit in my hand like a puzzle! The sun and moon are not the only two celestial objects to look the same size from earth's POV. Almost all the billions of stars look the same size from our view, too! I don't know what cleaner fish taste like, but sharks obviously have learned over millions of years that they either taste bad, or that if they eat the cleaner fish they won't have any clean teeth! Collective knowledge doesn't have to pertain strictly to humans. Animals instincts - see above regarding collective knowledge. Human morals - see above. Human emotion...all animals seem to show emotion, not just humans. The need for many cultures to create and worship a deity actually disproves God! It shows he is created by man, as all the other gods are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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