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23 Minutes In Hell


Justin
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And my brother. My poor brother. I could break down crying if I thought about it too hard. Like me, he has that mentally ill borderline schizophrenic tendency. He always had it worse than I did when it came to this demon shit, but back then when I was deluded myself, I thought it was because his gifts of "Spiritual Sight" were far more powerful than mine were.

 

Christ. I feel like I failed him, feeding his delusions like I did. My only excuse was that the delusions were shared. He's still trapped in it, but I escaped. But it kills me... it just kills me... to see that he's still trapped. For example, he won't sleep at night anymore. He'll only work the graveyard shift. He believes if he closes his eyes after the sun goes down, he'll be good and fucked. He's like a fucking vampire now. Well, he can be out in the sunlight, but night is the enemy so he must be awake. Kind of like that horror movie from the 90s where the evil tooth fairy would show up unless you kept the lights on at all time, except in his case the only light that works is the sun, and you have a much better fighting chance if you're awake during the night when they are at their strongest and most active.

 

 

 

Wow.... Oh man... Wow.... I am so sorry to hear that.

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One time there was this girl in our young adults group. My best friend and I became convinced that she was being possessed or oppressed by a particularly nasty demon whose greater aim was to fuck up our entire church. We also thought this demon was trying to get her to destroy the senior pastor's daughter, because at the time they had this weird fucked-up co-dependent friendship going. We strongly suspected that the girl had Borderline Personality Disorder (and we still suspect that to this day, because she continues to fuck shit up for others), and we figured that the demon was there to exploit this to great effect.

 

So, in other words, despite both you and your friend seeing what appeared to be a demon fly out of her, her actual behavior did not and has not changed?

 

One day I got super fucking sick of her bullshit. We were at some event with several hundred young people, and I disappeared into the crowd and exited the building. Nobody saw me leave. I stood on a hill above the building and I decided to perform my first Exorcism, despite the warnings by fellow spiritual warriors about how badly a novice can fuck that up. I performed an Exorcism from a distance of about 400 yards.

 

And... oh shit, I think it worked! I sensed that one very pissed off demon went flying out through the ceiling and off into the stratosphere.

 

So I stayed standing on the hillside, pondering what had just happened. Five minutes later my friend came running out the door and saw me. "Dude, dude, dude!!! I've been trying to find you for five minutes! The demon left her! I saw it fly out of her and through the ceiling!!!"

 

I nearly pissed my pants. When I regained my composure I told him what I had done, and he nearly pissed his pants.

 

How the fuck does somebody directly debunk that? I sure hope one of you can, because it's probably in the "Top 3" of Unexplainable Past Experiences that keeps me up some nights and makes me think that maybe I've made a real bad fucking move by telling Jesus to fuck off.

 

I think it's understandable to be very puzzled by this. But again, just because you and your friend saw something that night doesn't necessarily mean:

1. it was a Christian demon,

2. hell exists,

3. Jesus is God,

4. people who tell Jesus to fuck off go to hell,

5. etc. etc.

That's an awful lot of other baggage.

 

To me, if both of us weren't having some long-distance telepathic shared hallucination

 

Well... it sounds very strange, but that could make just as much or perhaps even more sense than Christian demons with all the theological baggage attached.

 

Actually, I was wondering if something along these lines might possibly be the case with your relationship with your brother. I have heard stories of how some people have at times sensed that a family member is in danger. If your brother has schizophrenic hallucinations, and if it's possible for people to pick up on the emotions of close family members even if they aren't nearby, then in your other example you may have simply picked up on the emotions generated by his hallucinations. No "real" demons required.

 

... then the best case scenario is that Christianity is phony after all and that I don't have to worry about me and most of my loved ones going to hell, but that spirits are real and that some of them aren't very nice. Refer to my dialogue with Multifarious Bird Lady in the Science forum.

 

There are stories of nice and not-so-nice spirits from many other cultures. Whether that makes spirits "real" or whether, as Carl Sagan said, it's evidence that these experiences are all produced through the same human brain wiring is open to question.

 

Nevertheless, if you want some examples, I could provide some.

 

 

Here's another wild-sounding idea, but one that some Pagans and magickal practitioners believe is a possibility. There is in some magickal systems the idea that one can create "thoughtforms" (aka "servitors" or "egregores"). These are entities (like "spirits") which are wholly created by people. You might think of them like spiritual or energetic robots with a certain "program" given to them by their creators. There is actually a whole branch of magick where people make these things intentionally, but there is a belief that it is possible for people to make them unintentionally, too, especially if the same "thoughtform" is given energy (through belief, ritual, fear, desire, etc.) by a number of people.

 

So... if you and your friend (maybe other friends, too?) thought this girl had a demon, a demon that in particular wanted to fuck up the church, then according to the way some think thoughtforms work, there is a chance that you and your friend(s?), through belief, fear, or whatever, created a shared thoughtform-robot "demon" fitting your expectations. If you both created it, it would be most "real" to the both of you, best sensed by both of you, and also would respond to your attempts to "cast it out" since you were the ones who had created/programmed it in the first place. It might even be that it could only appear to the both of you and had no power to actually affect her, anybody or anything else.

 

At least, that's one possibility, if thoughtform-creation is possible at all. Like I said, some magickal groups really do think so.

 

It also seems apparent that if demons were as common as what you and others claim to have witnessed, they would have been seen and documented by science.

 

The demons wouldn't reveal themselves to scientists because they don't want their cover blown. They want everyone to think that only crazy religious loons see them.

 

I am not playing the old "yes, but" game. Those are the justifications and explanations that I generated back then, in response to the very two problems you raise. For these surely did occur to me back then; my ability to reason wasn't completely asleep at the time. As you can see, the more bat-shit strains of fundamentalism require a greater level of sophistry and mental gymnastics to stave off all the cognitive dissonance.

 

I definitely understand and struggled with the same ideology back then. There were popular books circulating in the group I was in which portrayed demons in just that way. The idea was that the less people were aware of them, the more free reign they had. This is why some groups do "prayer walks" with the objective of spotting and casting out demons attached to neighborhoods, institutions, etc.

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I don't have any advice or explanation for you, VC (it's all well out of my depth), but I wanted to offer some encouragment in your efforts. To my mind, it took a hell of a lot of guts to honest with yourself and deconvert with all this additional baggage. You're an example of courage to your brother, and even if it doesn't show yet, that's got to be making an impact.

 

There are a lot of interesting theories in this thread. A good reminder that atheism is no excuse for forgetting that the world can be a truly bizarre and unexplainable place sometimes.

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So, in other words, despite both you and your friend seeing what appeared to be a demon fly out of her, her actual behavior did not and has not changed?

 

It changed for a couple of hours. But then my friend saw another demon enter her, a worse one than before. So I was all like "shit! I shouldn't have cast out the first one! She wasn't ready!"

 

As for why her behavior changed for a couple of hours, I was later told that she was at the altar crying (it was a big convention for young 20somethings in the Assemblies of God) roughly around the time that I performed the hillside distance exorcism. Though I left the building before the altar call started, when everyone was still seated.

 

I think it's understandable to be very puzzled by this. But again, just because you and your friend saw something that night doesn't necessarily mean:

1. it was a Christian demon,

 

That it could have been 'something' to begin with chills me to the bone. I'll be perfectly frank: ideally, the atheists are right, and not the pagans. I've had enough of spiritual shenanigans for one lifetime and I'd rather that it all be make-believe! Well, my pagan friend from NorCal seemed to empathize with my sentiment, and I have a feeling you probably do, too. I've got quite a lot of adjusting to do, as you can imagine.

 

But of course, I'd much rather it was some other kind of critter than a Christian demon. If it was indeed 'something', I mean.

 

As for why I deconverted. I had a girlfriend, but she was a nominal Catholic. We were going to have sex (it would have been my first time) and it was the first time I loved somebody and they loved me back and it was real. I was 26 years old. But I freaked out at the last second because I thought she would become demon possessed (some "prophetess" warned me this could happen if I ever fornicated) so I threw her out of my bed. The relationship went down in horrible flames and I broke her heart into a million pieces. I was the first man she truly loved, and likewise. It was true love.

 

And the worst part was, I couldn't tell her the truth. "I threw you out of bed and dumped you because I didn't want you to become demon-possessed." Uhhhhhh... right. The most she knew was that it was because of my religion. She thought I chose my religion over her. I thought I was saving her life! The sum of all my fears was that a demon would enter her via my cock and drive her to suicide. Because she didn't have Jesus, she would be the demon's plaything and it would do all it could to drive her to suicide to get back at me for being a Spiritual Warrior, and I would be powerless to stop it because she didn't have Jesus.

 

I seriously fucking thought that.

 

I thought that she might be influenced by my strong example to accept Jesus. I prayed and prayed with all my heart: "Lord, I hope she sees my example, respects the strength of my faith, and sees You in me. Then I can love her again. Please oh please oh please Lord, oh please...."

 

But the fucking reverse happened. She was so disgusted and hurt that she become a fucking ATHEIST. I was destroyed.

 

A little while later, this other girl decided she wanted to fuck me. I was, of course, still a virgin. I freaked the fuck out and I broke down and told her the story about what the 'prophetess' said. I thought this would scare her off, but I also desperately wanted to have sex for once in my life, and by then my faith had taken a massive fucking beating after losing my first true love. It didn't scare her off and she looked at me and said "you don't really believe that shit, do you? You sure are fucked up."

 

So I grew the balls and I went through with it. I fucked her. I thought my entire world would go down in flames, but it didn't. I finally felt like a man. Fuck that, I finally felt like a person!!! It did more for my mental health than Jesus ever fucking did, that's for goddamn sure. People think I'm a little nuts and wound up now, but I was four times worse before I lost my cherry. I was 27. I'm 30 now and am turning 31 in a couple of days.

 

So I was fucking her for a couple of months and feeling like a million bucks. But I didn't want a relationship so it kind of ended.

 

Then I met my current girlfriend, who's moving in with me in a couple weeks. We fell in love. We had sex. No problem. And I told myself "it won't happen again. It won't happen again. I won't let it happen again." We were fully in love, and officially boyfriend and girlfriend.

 

Shortly thereafter, I started having horrible nightmares. At one point I had the same horrible wake-up-screaming nightmare 8 nights in a row. I was losing my fucking mind. The nightmare either entailed her being cast down to hell as I watched, or her being ripped to shreds by demons.

 

One morning I woke up from such a nightmare and I thought the demons were in my room. Instead of crying out to Jesus, I looked up at the heavens and pretty much exclaimed, "what the fuck!?" The sensation that the demons were there suddenly went away. And then I said "fuck this, I quit."

 

KERRRRRAAAAAAASHHHHHH!!!!!

 

It was like falling through a plate glass skylight. I nearly screamed.

 

I jumped out of bed and ran to the computer. I had remembered years ago coming across the name of this website, but back then I was at full faith. I briefly considered coming here as an apologist but decided against it (probably because I unconsciously knew I'd have gotten my ass handed to me). That was years before that morning. (Maybe it was a different, related site? I know it had the word "ex-christian" in it.) So I ran to my fucking computer (literally ran) and found this place, registered, and puked out my entire newly minted ex-timony. I think I basically had a weeklong panic attack. This place probably prevented me from going completely fucking insane.

 

My girlfriend was and is an atheist but she said she would respect my faith, even though she thought it was goofy. Well, I told her I deconverted, and she was astonished. And then I told her the full story and she was absolutely shaken to her core. But she managed to understand. I told her "I chose you over my religion."

 

Sometimes my heart aches over the love I lost. Sometimes I feel like crying. Sometimes I kick myself, because I should have at least lost my virginity to her. In fact, I was entirely ready to, but then when the night finally came, I thought I saw a "sign from God" and I totally lost my shit. If I hadn't of seen that sign I would have had the night of my life. It hurts, thinking about it. Even though I have love now, the wound is still raw. Sometimes I feel like I would chop off my left leg just to go back and do it differently. It hurts.

 

Actually, I was wondering if something along these lines might possibly be the case with your relationship with your brother. I have heard stories of how some people have at times sensed that a family member is in danger. If your brother has schizophrenic hallucinations, and if it's possible for people to pick up on the emotions of close family members even if they aren't nearby, then in your other example you may have simply picked up on the emotions generated by his hallucinations. No "real" demons required.

 

Could be. Though I have Asperger's Syndrome and am dense as hell when it comes to what others around me are feeling. Still, this is a strong possibility.

 

Here's another wild-sounding idea, but one that some Pagans and magickal practitioners believe is a possibility. There is in some magickal systems the idea that one can create "thoughtforms" (aka "servitors" or "egregores"). These are entities (like "spirits") which are wholly created by people. You might think of them like spiritual or energetic robots with a certain "program" given to them by their creators. There is actually a whole branch of magick where people make these things intentionally, but there is a belief that it is possible for people to make them unintentionally, too, especially if the same "thoughtform" is given energy (through belief, ritual, fear, desire, etc.) by a number of people.

 

So... if you and your friend (maybe other friends, too?) thought this girl had a demon, a demon that in particular wanted to fuck up the church, then according to the way some think thoughtforms work, there is a chance that you and your friend(s?), through belief, fear, or whatever, created a shared thoughtform-robot "demon" fitting your expectations. If you both created it, it would be most "real" to the both of you, best sensed by both of you, and also would respond to your attempts to "cast it out" since you were the ones who had created/programmed it in the first place. It might even be that it could only appear to the both of you and had no power to actually affect her, anybody or anything else.

 

At least, that's one possibility, if thoughtform-creation is possible at all. Like I said, some magickal groups really do think so.

 

Holy shit! That's definitely food for thought! I wonder where I can find more information about this.

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I don't have any advice or explanation for you, VC (it's all well out of my depth), but I wanted to offer some encouragment in your efforts. To my mind, it took a hell of a lot of guts to honest with yourself and deconvert with all this additional baggage. You're an example of courage to your brother, and even if it doesn't show yet, that's got to be making an impact.

 

My brother doesn't know. I'm hiding it from him.

 

It's not because I'm chickenshit. (Well, maybe a little bit.) It's because I'm worried he would "snap" at the revelation. I'm worried it would flip him completely out and send him on a bad trip he might never come back from. I'm worried it would destroy him. So I keep my lips sealed and hope that he never asks.

 

If he found out and didn't go completely permanently ape-shit in reaction, he would call me a "pussy." His reasoning would be: he always had it way worse than I did, when it came to the attacks. He would also blame my girlfriend for making me fall away. "Didn't [youth pastor] always say what would happen if you got with an unbeliever? Didn't he? He was right, wasn't he!?!?! She made you fall away, didn't she!?!?!?!"

 

Some of you are worried that your sweet saintly 90 year old grandmother would instantly drop dead of a fucking heart attack if she discovered the horrible truth about you. I can honestly say that I know how you feel, but my brother is 23, not 90.

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At least, that's one possibility, if thoughtform-creation is possible at all. Like I said, some magickal groups really do think so.

 

Holy shit! That's definitely food for thought! I wonder where I can find more information about this.

 

Well, there are books or sections of books on this, but also a lot online. Do a search for words like "thoughtform," "egregore," "servitor" and so on and you'll see what I mean. Views on this subject understandably vary pretty widely.

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One time there was this girl in our young adults group. My best friend and I became convinced that she was being possessed or oppressed by a particularly nasty demon whose greater aim was to fuck up our entire church. We also thought this demon was trying to get her to destroy the senior pastor's daughter, because at the time they had this weird fucked-up co-dependent friendship going. We strongly suspected that the girl had Borderline Personality Disorder (and we still suspect that to this day, because she continues to fuck shit up for others), and we figured that the demon was there to exploit this to great effect.

 

One day I got super fucking sick of her bullshit. We were at some event with several hundred young people, and I disappeared into the crowd and exited the building. Nobody saw me leave. I stood on a hill above the building and I decided to perform my first Exorcism, despite the warnings by fellow spiritual warriors about how badly a novice can fuck that up. I performed an Exorcism from a distance of about 400 yards.

 

And... oh shit, I think it worked! I sensed that one very pissed off demon went flying out through the ceiling and off into the stratosphere.

 

So I stayed standing on the hillside, pondering what had just happened. Five minutes later my friend came running out the door and saw me. "Dude, dude, dude!!! I've been trying to find you for five minutes! The demon left her! I saw it fly out of her and through the ceiling!!!"

 

Maybe, contrary to what you thought, your friend did see you leave? Perhaps he also knew what you were leaving to do as well? You mentioned that others warned you against performing an exorcisim, maybe your friend or another saw you and just added one and one together.

 

Your mentioning of having joint witnesses to the same event reminds me of something i once read. Occasionaly there are joint witnesses to an aliean abduction. Several people of the same household have reported being snatched up by alien life forms at the same time. Now, i believe we can all agree that alien abductions are rubbish and there are many possibilites to explain what these people experienced. I think it is alien buffs who all wanted attention. Or perhaps one indeed did have a horrifying dream in which they were taken away by something and others had some dreams that might now have been similar but still they wanted to believe and be a part of it too and they tied it all in. People like this tend to passionatly believe in this sort of thing and it is untelling what they would try and pass off as evidence, especially if they wanted to believe it in the first place.

 

Whenever i think of the extremes that the cult mind can go to, i think about the Heaven's Gate cult who all killed themselves to coincide with the nearest approach of the Hal-Bop comet back in 97. They believed they would actually, once dead, ride the comet to their version of paradise. If people can be so warped by their beliefs, then imagining this and that and thinking one believes they saw this or that is totally possible. It is downright scray what these types can do and say they believe.

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I think it's understandable to be very puzzled by this. But again, just because you and your friend saw something that night doesn't necessarily mean:

1. it was a Christian demon,

 

That it could have been 'something' to begin with chills me to the bone. I'll be perfectly frank: ideally, the atheists are right, and not the pagans. I've had enough of spiritual shenanigans for one lifetime and I'd rather that it all be make-believe! Well, my pagan friend from NorCal seemed to empathize with my sentiment, and I have a feeling you probably do, too. I've got quite a lot of adjusting to do, as you can imagine.

 

Understandable, and yes, I feel the same way.

 

Like I mentioned on the other thread where I quoted The Mind of the Bible-Believer, my experience of "demons" does strongly suggest to me that they are created from dissociated "shadow fragments" of our psyches and made stronger through psychological suggestion such as you get with Christian beliefs about demons. That's why facing them squarely ended up being so healing for me.

 

As for why I deconverted. I had a girlfriend, but she was a nominal Catholic. We were going to have sex (it would have been my first time) and it was the first time I loved somebody and they loved me back and it was real. I was 26 years old. But I freaked out at the last second because I thought she would become demon possessed (some "prophetess" warned me this could happen if I ever fornicated) so I threw her out of my bed. The relationship went down in horrible flames and I broke her heart into a million pieces. I was the first man she truly loved, and likewise. It was true love.

 

And the worst part was, I couldn't tell her the truth. "I threw you out of bed and dumped you because I didn't want you to become demon-possessed." Uhhhhhh... right. The most she knew was that it was because of my religion. She thought I chose my religion over her. I thought I was saving her life! The sum of all my fears was that a demon would enter her via my cock and drive her to suicide. Because she didn't have Jesus, she would be the demon's plaything and it would do all it could to drive her to suicide to get back at me for being a Spiritual Warrior, and I would be powerless to stop it because she didn't have Jesus.

 

I seriously fucking thought that.

 

I can understand that. Believe me, I went through plenty of bizarre beliefs and reactions of my own with respect to this topic.

 

A little while later, this other girl decided she wanted to fuck me. I was, of course, still a virgin. I freaked the fuck out and I broke down and told her the story about what the 'prophetess' said. I thought this would scare her off, but I also desperately wanted to have sex for once in my life, and by then my faith had taken a massive fucking beating after losing my first true love. It didn't scare her off and she looked at me and said "you don't really believe that shit, do you? You sure are fucked up."

 

So I grew the balls and I went through with it. I fucked her. I thought my entire world would go down in flames, but it didn't. I finally felt like a man. Fuck that, I finally felt like a person!!! It did more for my mental health than Jesus ever fucking did, that's for goddamn sure.

 

This has some similarities to how I ended up getting over a lot of that fear, too... trying things out and noticing that my life didn't come crashing down the way I had been taught it would, unless through my own fear and self-destructiveness I made it happen that way myself (I had to stop panicking and pay attention to realize this).

 

Shortly thereafter, I started having horrible nightmares. At one point I had the same horrible wake-up-screaming nightmare 8 nights in a row. I was losing my fucking mind. The nightmare either entailed her being cast down to hell as I watched, or her being ripped to shreds by demons.

 

During the worst part of my experience dealing with the fear of demons, I had a few incredibly awful nightmares, too (thankfully not that many and not all in a row like some of yours). I mean, I had had nightmares before where something bad happens, or something scares you, or one of those dreams where you feel like you're falling, or there is a monster or something out to get you in the dream, but these few were really different... animalistic, twisted and downright gory in a way I had never experienced before. It was really sickening and extremely disturbing to think that my own mind came up with it. Seemed like the depths of the shadow world, for sure.

 

One morning I woke up from such a nightmare and I thought the demons were in my room. Instead of crying out to Jesus, I looked up at the heavens and pretty much exclaimed, "what the fuck!?" The sensation that the demons were there suddenly went away. And then I said "fuck this, I quit."

 

KERRRRRAAAAAAASHHHHHH!!!!!

 

It was like falling through a plate glass skylight. I nearly screamed.

 

I jumped out of bed and ran to the computer. I had remembered years ago coming across the name of this website, but back then I was at full faith. I briefly considered coming here as an apologist but decided against it (probably because I unconsciously knew I'd have gotten my ass handed to me). That was years before that morning. (Maybe it was a different, related site? I know it had the word "ex-christian" in it.) So I ran to my fucking computer (literally ran) and found this place, registered, and puked out my entire newly minted ex-timony. I think I basically had a weeklong panic attack. This place probably prevented me from going completely fucking insane.

 

I'm really glad this site was here for you. And why I think it's so helpful for those of us who've been out for a while to continue to post even if we don't have to deal with a lot of this psychological "fallout" anymore.

 

Sometimes my heart aches over the love I lost. Sometimes I feel like crying. Sometimes I kick myself, because I should have at least lost my virginity to her. In fact, I was entirely ready to, but then when the night finally came, I thought I saw a "sign from God" and I totally lost my shit. If I hadn't of seen that sign I would have had the night of my life. It hurts, thinking about it. Even though I have love now, the wound is still raw. Sometimes I feel like I would chop off my left leg just to go back and do it differently. It hurts.

 

I have very different stuff in my past with respect to this issue that I sure wish I could un-do, but I hear you.

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It is a book by a christian named Bill Wiese. In this book he claims that he actually went to hell for 23 minutes back in 1996. He said he was contained for the most part in a barred cell were two demons, one had fins and spikes; the other had deformaties like arms and legs out of proportion, that guarded his cell. They tortured him by throwing him around the room, breaking every bone in his body according to him and they slashed him up with their claws. He also said there is 6 foot spiders in hell too.

 

He says god gave him this vision and then told him to go and tell others about the horrors of hell.

 

My dad has this book and i have read it hear and there and it is REALLY worth the laughs! :lmao:

 

Here is the Amazon page. http://www.amazon.com/23-Minutes-Hell-Bill-Wiese/dp/1591858828/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256663171&sr=1-1

And was there another giant demon with a rocket launcher for an arm? This Bill Wiese guy is a total noob! He's suppose to strafe left to right while returning his own rocket fire! Then that demon will go down with relatively few problems.

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I asked one girl "how do you know all this stuff? It's not really in the Bible." She said it was from years of accumulated experience, as if the Spiritual Warriors were some ancient esoteric order like the Knights Templar or something, who'd been working mostly in the shadows for centuries.

 

 

Will the real slim shady please stand up??

 

This is the "real" slim shady: http://www.ordo-militiae-templi.org/starten.htm

 

Cause all the others are just imitating. Damn they have some photos up too: http://www.ordo-militiae-templi.org/starten.htm and here is how the Vatican cleared the Knights Templar recently (last two years): http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/vatican-clears-the-knights-templar/

 

And holy shit, they are all Trad Catholics. Not surprising...

 

 

"Domina Nostra Regina Militiae" If only those poor bastards had any fucking clue how fucked they are. Some of them will get out and find a good Dom I am sure, others sadly, No.

 

http://www.ordo-militiae-templi.org/starten.htm

 

God, they are so fucked and they don't even know it. FOR THE QUEEN!!!!!!!

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And was there another giant demon with a rocket launcher for an arm? This Bill Wiese guy is a total noob! He's suppose to strafe left to right while returning his own rocket fire! Then that demon will go down with relatively few problems.

 

:HaHa: We already did that joke earlier, with pictures, references to cheat codes, weapon pick ups, and everything. The description of his account of Hell does sound like he spent one to many nights on the PC playing DOOM. I mean, he ran into Spider Masterminds, Mancubus, and Imps and everything. I'm sure 'no clipping' would have gotten him out of the cage all right, and there was bound to be a shotgun around somewhere at least.

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And... oh shit, I think it worked! I sensed that one very pissed off demon went flying out through the ceiling and off into the stratosphere.

 

It's unclear what you mean by "sensed."

 

Five minutes later my friend came running out the door and saw me. "Dude, dude, dude!!! I've been trying to find you for five minutes! The demon left her! I saw it fly out of her and through the ceiling!!!"

 

What exactly did he "see?"

 

My SWAG on this would be that you communicated something to your friend before or after you did your exorcism rites. It may have been partially subconscious, but if you guys were all sick of her behavior and all cracked out on Jesus and spirits and such then you guys were all in a state of hyper faith or whatever you want to call it that made you guys vulnerable to self deception and an overreaction/over reading of all your own senses and sensations around you. Your friend then may have just seen a flash of light or shadow or something else that in his easily convinced state of mind could be interpreted as a demon. You, sensed something just like every pentecostal senses things that don't exist every Sunday and Wednesday of the week.

 

If there was no communication involved there was certainly the same frame of mind involved. You guys were both sick of her behavior and he really wanted something to happen and you, a man of action made something happen; both events triggered by the same behavior of the person in question.

 

Again, just a SWAG. I've been in those situations before though and know how easy it is for group think to take over the mind and how desperately those in the group are to see, feel and hear something fantastic.

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It changed for a couple of hours. But then my friend saw another demon enter her, a worse one than before. So I was all like "shit! I shouldn't have cast out the first one! She wasn't ready!"

 

How convenient that her problems didn't go away. Occam's razor would dictate (if I'm using it correctly) that she had real psychological or other problems. When you guys all gave her feedback on her condition she experienced a temporary placebo effect and then the return of her problems left her feeling ever more discouraged by it all and they seemed to multiply.

 

That it could have been 'something' to begin with chills me to the bone.

 

Really all you have here is an untrustworthy personal experience. All demon sightings are personal experiences relayed. I don't think you are a dishonest person, so that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that even our own personal experiences are untrustworthy. Why? Because the interpretation of personal experience is subjective.

 

Why isn't there even one iota of scientific evidence for this phenomena? As a social scientist and as a person who understands statistical analysis as well as you do this should raise many flags and should soothe your own fears.

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One day a friend of mine and I were playing "HALO" in co-op mode, having a hell of a good time. After two hours of mayhem we took a break and went outside. It was near evening, and suddenly a porcupine emerged from some bushes nearby; momentarily looked at us and then rambled off.

 

My friend and I looked at each other stunned. "Did you see.....?" was the only thing we could say to each other.

 

For a moment it looked exactly like one of the aliens from the game; we were both stunned and thought we were out of our minds for a moment....

 

We still joke about that incident to this day. The mind is good at tripping out on stuff, and even two or three people can "see" the same phenomenon, although it's often brief.

 

People gathered on airliners have claimed to have seen UFO's and stuff; a guy's army unit in Afghanistan mistaking a random dust cloud in the distance to be approaching militants; the power of suggestion and the trippy nature of the human mind is quite impressive at times.

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From reading the amazon page it says the book contains apart which matches his experience of hell up to the bible. I find this somewhat confusing as from reading some of the posts here he's talking about a place where demons torture you. This doesn't match up to any description of hell I've seen in the bible. The only two I've read, is hades in Luke, which was torment due to the environment of the place, not demon torture, and the lake of fire in which the Satan and the demons and what not are burning right alongside, not running the prison. Can anybody who's read it comment on his biblical verses.

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Hey Vomit,

 

Have you ever looked into Tibetan Buddhist beliefs about demons? You may find a bit of both perspectives, i.e. they're real (but non-Christian) spirits in some way vs. they're "just" a projection of the mind, but it's pretty interesting. The book Magic and Mystery in Tibet has a lot of info relevant to this topic.

 

I found something here that you might find interesting. Here it is:

 

In the famous story of Milarepa, when he left his cave to go out momentarily and then came back, he found that the demoness of the rock had entered his cave and had assumed five utterly terrifying emanations. Milarepa was so amazed to see these demons in his cave that he couldn’t even step into the doorway. He was filled with terror and began reciting the mantra of his meditational deity as fast as he could, and this made it worse. The demons got bigger and greater and then he began meditating upon self nature as the deity and it got even worse. Then he started wrathful mantras and this also didn’t work. Finally, in desperation, he remembered the pointing out instructions given by his lama - that all phenomena arise from the mind and that all appearances are just one’s own projection. Then he entered into the awareness of the nature of emptiness, the nature of mind, and immediately they were gone - vanished - no more. This is the well known story of Milarepa eliminating the demoness of the rock from his cave, once and for all. Until we realize that phenomena are the projections of our mind, then we can expect that wherever we go, there will always be demons, spirits and problems.
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Hey Vomit,

 

Have you ever looked into Tibetan Buddhist beliefs about demons? You may find a bit of both perspectives, i.e. they're real (but non-Christian) spirits in some way vs. they're "just" a projection of the mind, but it's pretty interesting. The book Magic and Mystery in Tibet has a lot of info relevant to this topic.

 

Interesting. I think the more cross-cultural info I have, the more I can convince myself that the Christian version isn't the real deal. Thanks! :thanks:

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The demons I saw were almost always in the form of black shadows, though not always. One was like the statue of David except with very dark green/purple/charcoal skin. Most of the time they were vaguely humanoid silhouettes, although one time I saw one that had a very large, round head. One time I encountered an immensely powerful one that was the size of a midget, but I could sense that his blackness was very very "densely concentrated."

 

Crazy fucked up shit, yeah? One day I'll tell the full story. I stay awake at night sometimes and I can't fully convince myself I was hallucinating.

 

 

I don't know if y'all would remember a book about 10 years ago....a lady wrote an account of hell. My personal take....when I was a child, I had a dream. If I spoke the word hell, my sister would go there. I spoke it naturally, and a trap door let loose. All I remember was a screaming as she fell. Still bothers me.

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I don't know if y'all would remember a book about 10 years ago....a lady wrote an account of hell. My personal take....when I was a child, I had a dream. If I spoke the word hell, my sister would go there. I spoke it naturally, and a trap door let loose. All I remember was a screaming as she fell. Still bothers me.

That would bother the hell out of me, too.

 

Do you worry that some of your friends, relatives, or acquaintances might be destined for hell, or have you found a way to keep them out - or reconcile yourself?

 

Maybe I'm asking this of the wrong person, but if you were pretty sure someone was destined to hell that you love, and you positively knew of a way to keep them out of hell, would you do whatever was required? Even at great personal cost?

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I don't know if y'all would remember a book about 10 years ago....a lady wrote an account of hell. My personal take....when I was a child, I had a dream. If I spoke the word hell, my sister would go there. I spoke it naturally, and a trap door let loose. All I remember was a screaming as she fell. Still bothers me.

That would bother the hell out of me, too.

 

Do you worry that some of your friends, relatives, or acquaintances might be destined for hell, or have you found a way to keep them out - or reconcile yourself?

 

Maybe I'm asking this of the wrong person, but if you were pretty sure someone was destined to hell that you love, and you positively knew of a way to keep them out of hell, would you do whatever was required? Even at great personal cost?

 

Reconcile myself with respect to the dream? I think it to be a childhood dream now. But like you, I wonder how a child comes up with this. My memory doesn't recall learning much about hell.

 

I don't much think about who will end up apart from God. I don't give a whole lot to the modern version of hell, although that one ladies account seems interesting. If I absolutely knew, I would certainly give the ole college try to ensure they understood.

 

Oh, btw VC, I too have had a handful of sleep paralyses. I sense people/intruders to our house standing right over me, but can't do a damn thing about it. My wife says I start moaning. That is really me yelling in my mind. I have to literally force myself...struggle to make myself wake. Freaky.

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And was there another giant demon with a rocket launcher for an arm? This Bill Wiese guy is a total noob! He's suppose to strafe left to right while returning his own rocket fire! Then that demon will go down with relatively few problems.

 

:HaHa: We already did that joke earlier, with pictures, references to cheat codes, weapon pick ups, and everything. The description of his account of Hell does sound like he spent one to many nights on the PC playing DOOM. I mean, he ran into Spider Masterminds, Mancubus, and Imps and everything. I'm sure 'no clipping' would have gotten him out of the cage all right, and there was bound to be a shotgun around somewhere at least.

 

Oh damn, late to the party yet again.

 

On a somewhat related note, anyone see this video? I might have originally been linked to it from here, but I found this video absolutely absurd. It's a letter from Hell written from a guy who gets sent to Hell because he never knew Jesus so he's writing his Christian friend from Hell or actually while he is being dragged to Hell by angels who have to check a fucking book to make sure he's saved (lol omnipotent god..) and somehow he is able to write while he's being dragged off and thrown into Hell. I had no idea they made pens and paper available while you waited to get thrown into Hell.

 

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Wouldn't the paper disintegrate in hell?

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Actually, I was wondering if something along these lines might possibly be the case with your relationship with your brother. I have heard stories of how some people have at times sensed that a family member is in danger. If your brother has schizophrenic hallucinations, and if it's possible for people to pick up on the emotions of close family members even if they aren't nearby, then in your other example you may have simply picked up on the emotions generated by his hallucinations. No "real" demons required........

 

 

.......There is in some magickal systems the idea that one can create "thoughtforms" (aka "servitors" or "egregores"). These are entities (like "spirits") which are wholly created by people. You might think of them like spiritual or energetic robots with a certain "program" given to them by their creators. There is actually a whole branch of magick where people make these things intentionally, but there is a belief that it is possible for people to make them unintentionally, too, especially if the same "thoughtform" is given energy (through belief, ritual, fear, desire, etc.) by a number of people.

 

So... if you and your friend (maybe other friends, too?) thought this girl had a demon, a demon that in particular wanted to fuck up the church, then according to the way some think thoughtforms work, there is a chance that you and your friend(s?), through belief, fear, or whatever, created a shared thoughtform-robot "demon" fitting your expectations. If you both created it, it would be most "real" to the both of you, best sensed by both of you, and also would respond to your attempts to "cast it out" since you were the ones who had created/programmed it in the first place. It might even be that it could only appear to the both of you and had no power to actually affect her, anybody or anything else.

 

At least, that's one possibility, if thoughtform-creation is possible at all. Like I said, some magickal groups really do think so.

 

 

When things go multi-person is when they get interesting. I am an anti-superstition 'sceptical of miracles' type person but yet I have seen/experienced a few things which are unexplainable. Maybe there is a thread here where the paranormal is discussed?

 

Sleep paralysis is a BITCH! I've experienced it a few times and it really does seem like a demonic attack. The brief study I did on the subject explained how these experiences contributed heavily to a belief in demons in ancient cultures.

 

"the paralysis state may be accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (hypnopompic or hypnagogic) and an acute sense of danger.[8] Sleep paralysis is particularly frightening to the individual because of the vividness of such hallucinations.[7] The hallucinatory element to sleep paralysis makes it even more likely that someone will interpret the experience as a dream, since completely fanciful, or dream-like, objects may appear in the room alongside one's normal vision. Some scientists have proposed this condition as an explanation for alien abductions and ghostly encounters"

 

Bill Wiese may have had just such an experience (if he's not just a big time scam artist). What's sickening is how people buy into this nonsense - even fundamentalists who are SUPPOSED to only go by the bible (I think most of you know that Bill's story is highly unscriptural) and more sickening is the little children exposed to this.

 

Like here:

 

http://www.soulchoiceministries.org/

 

An auto-slide show starts when you go to the home page - watch the pics - one has this poor little boy holding the book and grinning from ear to ear. A lot of pics of him with kids - yikes!!! Can you spell 'nightmares'??? I mean it's one thing to hear scary fairy tales but with grown-ups telling them it's all real, can you imagine???

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I have some younger Christian friends and their kids are like my grand-kids. I was visiting them at church one day (they are worship leaders) and I got into a conversation with the Bible school president and (being well versed in the bible) I started telling him how the orthodox doctrine of 'hell' was a scam AND unscriptural.

 

His response was "What about Bill Wiese?" and I was like "What about him?" And he said "Did you read all 150 scriptures which prove his story?" :twitch::twitch::twitch:

 

This was a BIBLE TEACHER telling me this! I hadn't read the book but had heard a few minutes of a youtube vid - enough to know that it wasn't bible.

 

I got really concerned that they were going to bring that crap into that church so first I told my friends they BETTER not let the little kiddos hear any of that garbage and then, knowing if I could prove it was unscriptural they would reject it, I wrote the Bible school president this letter:

 

First Bill refers to Paul's catching up to prove his own 'catching down' saying:

(quote) "Some Christians have said, "Oh a Christian can't leave his body." But that's not true, In 2 Corinthians 12:2, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven, He said, "whether in the body, or out of the body I do not know." (end quote)

Okay, fine.

 

But then he refers to Jonah:

(quote)"And In Jonah 2:6 it says, "the earth with her bars was about me forever, yet thou has brought up my life from corruption." So at least there was somebody in the Bible that experienced Hell, Jonah". (end quote)

Of course you and I know that the KJV translates "Sheol" as ' the grave', 'the pit' and 'hell'.

 

" I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,

And He answered me.

" Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,

And You heard my voice.

 

Was not Jonah speaking metaphorically here? ie: " I was as good as dead"?

Later Bill claims "The earth with her bars" confirms the literal bars on his prison cell in 'hell'.

 

Then Bill quotes Job 17:16 to further confirm his assigned prison cell in 'hell' had literal bars. Again, it's clear to me that Job was speaking of the grave in a generic sense:

 

NRS: Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?"

 

NIV "Will it go down to the gates of death? Will we descend together into the dust?"

 

amp"[My hope] shall go down to the bars of Sheol (the unseen state) when once there is rest in the dust. "

 

Bill is cherry picking to try and give his vision some credibility.

 

To prove 'cells' or 'rooms' he quotes Prov. 7: 26

 

"For she has cast down many wounded,

And all who were slain by her were strong men.

27 Her house is the way to hell (Sheol - the grave)

Descending to the chambers of death".

 

Bill just plays on people's (and his own) ignorance concerning the generic state of death by using the KJV rendering of 'Sheol - the grave - the unseen' as the English word 'hell'.

 

He goes on to state how strong the demons were and how weak he was:

(Quote) "The one picked me up, and the other one, with his razor-sharp claws; he just shredded my flesh right off. He just tore it off, and had absolutely no care what so ever for this body that God so wonderfully made. It had a hatred that was so intense against me. I wondered, "Why am I alive, why am I living through this? I don't understand why am I not dead." My flesh just hung there in ribbons. And there was no blood, just flesh hanging, because life is in the blood, and there is no life in Hell. And there is no water in Hell.

 

In Isaiah 14:9-10 it says

 

Hell (the grave) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?

 

Psalms 88:4

 

I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, (end Quote)

 

Of course dead men no longer have strength. Sheeeesh Bill!

 

Then he talks about the cussing and profanities in 'hell'

 

(Quote) The profanities, that they were cursing at God is mentioned in Ezekiel 22-26 "I am profaned among them"

 

Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. (end quote)

 

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with cussing or what we call profanity.

 

Then he explains the scriptural-ness of the demons ripping his flesh off by quoting Micah 3:2

 

" 1 Hear now, O heads of Jacob,

And you rulers of the house of Israel:

Is it not for you to know justice?

2 You who hate good and love evil;

Who strip the skin from My people,[a]

And the flesh from their bones;

3 Who also eat the flesh of My people,

Flay their skin from them,

Break their bones,

And chop them in pieces

Like meat for the pot,

Like flesh in the caldron."

 

This is obvious metaphorical speech of how the leaders were taking advantage of the masses at that time (same as today!)

 

Then he talks about the humiliation you endure in the afterlife:

 

(quote) There are scriptures about the humiliation you have to endure. "This thing is going to run my life, I can't stop it!" In Isaiah 5:14-15

 

Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers. So man will be brought low and mankind humbled, the eyes of the arrogant humbled.

 

Ezekiel 32:24

 

There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

 

On and on it goes. That was a horrible thing, to have your life run by these creatures, that have no mercy for you whatsoever.

(end quote)

 

Again, he uses all this to claim demonic 'creatures' are ruling in 'hell'.

 

Then he claims Psalms written by David to confirm the darkness in 'hell'

 

(quote) "I looked one direction, all black, and all I heard was screams, billions of people screaming in this place. I knew there were billions, and it was so loud. If you have ever heard someone scream before, it is so annoying. Well if you hear billions of people screaming, you can't imagine how it affects your mind. You just can't stand it. You hold your ears because it is so loud and penetrating. You can't get away from the screams.

 

And the fear that overcomes you is unbelievable. Everything is dominated by fear. There is no presence of God in this place, so you have to endure the fear and the torment and the blackness. You can't see anything. You can't even see what is coming up against you.

 

Scripture talks about this darkness in Psalms 88:6 "You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths". (end quote)

 

Again, David is speaking about his trials here and totally contradicts Bill's application in another Psalm "If I make my bed in Sheol, YOU (God) are there"

 

Then he talks about how desolate it is:

 

(Quote) "I was now outside the cell and I looked this direction and as I looked this way I could see there was flames of fire, about 10 miles away from me. I knew it was 10 miles. And a pit of fire, about 3 miles across, had flames that lit up the skyline enough to see the landscape of Hell just a little bit.

 

The darkness was so heavy; it just eats up any light. But there was enough to just see some of the skyline. It was all brown and desolate! I mean absolutely not one green leaf, not anything of life of any kind, just stone, dirt and black sky, and smog in the skylight. The flames were really high, so I could see it. There was a scripture in Deuteronomy 29:23

 

The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.

 

There is no life whatsoever in Hell. It is so strange to be in a world where there is no life. Here we enjoy trees and fresh air, but there it is absolutely all dead. (end quote)

 

In context we see this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the afterlife:

 

Deuteronomy 29:20-25 (New King James Version)

 

20 "The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law, 22 so that the coming generation of your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the LORD has laid on it:

23 'The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.' 24 All nations would say, 'Why has the LORD done so to this land? What does the heat of this great anger mean?' 25 Then people would say: 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt;

 

Bill speaks of heat:

 

(quote) The heat was so intense, you can even describe it. It says in Deuteronomy 32:24

 

They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (end quote)

 

About water he says

 

(quote) Regarding the water, in Zechariah 9:11,

 

...I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

 

Absolutely no water in Hell. (end quote)

 

Concerning hopelessness he says

 

(quote) This is the worse thing about Hell, that there was absolutely no hope of ever getting out. I understood that. I grasped eternity. I could understand eternity. Here on earth, we can't quite, can't get a hold of it. But there I understood it. I knew I would be there forever and ever, and had no hope of getting out. Even people in concentration camps had a hope of getting out, or dying at least, to get out of it. But we've never experienced a totally hopeless situation. In Isaiah 38:18 it says,

 

"Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth." (end quote)

 

Again, read the context.

 

15 " What shall I say?

He has both spoken to me,

And He Himself has done it.

I shall walk carefully all my years

In the bitterness of my soul.

16 O Lord, by these things men live;

And in all these things is the life of my spirit;

So You will restore me and make me live.

17 Indeed it was for my own peace

That I had great bitterness;

But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption,

For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

18 For Sheol cannot thank You,

Death cannot praise You;

Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,

As I do this day;

The father shall make known Your truth to the children.

20 " The LORD was ready to save me;

Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments

All the days of our life, in the house of the LORD."

 

This passage is simply making the case for remaining alive to praise God, as there is no work or thought or knowledge in the grave (Sheol) where man goes.

 

Bill just twists every scripture to fit his unscriptural description of the afterlife. (end of letter)

 

Next time I saw him he didn't bring up theology at all. :woohoo:

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