Disprove God

[Eponymic]

I truly feel as if you will understand us a bit better after that point.

 

 

 

You kick ass Panther.

[dario]

Dario,

 

Please tell us what brand of christianity that you follow.

 

Also, I believe the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around.

 

We can continue to go this other route....but.......

 

So far, I am seeing so much info. being given to you that you are admittingly not even researching.

Why not even take a peek?

 

You said earlier that nothing would shake your faith.....so my question to you is....

 

Are you more interested in trying to prove the bible god to us?

 

OR

 

Are you more interested in finding out for yourself what the truth is on the matter?

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with you in any way at all....but come on, let's be honest here so no one's time is wasted.

 

If you are TRULY seeking knowledge, then you have to open your mind to the possibility that you may be wrong.

Do you think that we were christians for a number of years and someone came along and said "you're being duped" and that we just simply believed them?

 

Of course not!! I can't even count how many hours and days and months that I have spent pouring over material.

 

Knowledge is a process. You can't just debunk a statement or two and think you have proven anything.

 

Like anything worth anything, this takes much time and it does require you to be brutally honest with yourself.

So far, I am feeling like you really don't want us to prove anything to you, you really want to prove something to us.

 

My friend, please think about all I have said.

 

It matters not to me either way if you believe or don't believe.......but do yourself a favor.....

Just take an unbiased look for once.....and go from there.

If you're not willing to at least honestly look at what we present, then why are we bothering?

 

If you could only realize how many christians come here on a consistent basis and try to "save us."

 

Please answer me one more thing.....will you take a look at our testimonies? There is a whole section dedicated to this and you will see first hand the reason why. It is very compelling, interesting and heartfelt.

 

I truly feel as if you will understand us a bit better after that point.

 

This was truly written in  all sincerety....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

Thank you panther for your post, and I believe you were sincere. I promise I will try to respond to this post later, but I'm running late as it is. Thank you really for your sincerity.

[Panther]

One more thing......(I always have "one more thing" )

 

Somewhere in the pages of this thread, you referred to us as being angry at God. (or something to that effect)

 

For me personally and I am confident quite a few others, that is simply not true.

I am not "anything" towards God as I am leaning toward being an athiest.

Or at least, agnostic.

 

I simply am not believing that there is ANY god at this point. I am slightly open to the idea of one, but admittedly realize it is probably a good stretch.

 

If you want to know the truth, I WISH I did know one way or another...and I wish there was a GOD!!

(not bible god though....that one is too grouchy for me...)

 

So please realize that you may be assigning or assuming feelings to us that we don't necessarily have. That's why I suggest you read the testimonies if you truly care about this. It would clear a lot up.

 

(AND...you could see the countless ways that people have been hurt by religion.)

[Panther]

You kick ass Panther.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks!! I try... *blushes*

[Amethyst]

I can find you many stories of christians healing people and christians speaking in tongues.

 

And how many of these were hearsay? Or hearsay upon hearsay? Unless you have witnessed such a thing yourself, it's not proof. And if you have, I'd like you to prove that it was not smoke and mirrors.

[Eponymic]

I apologize to the people who are waiting for certain responses from me, just understand that I'm getting a lot of information thrown at me.  Please be patient in waiting for my responses. 

 

No troubles there. Rather have you say what you mean properly.

 

I am a man who trusts in God.  I trust that what the bible says is fact.  I trust that there really was a man named Jesus, both because the bible says so and because other writings have proved it.  I believe in what Jesus stood for and the things he commanded us to stand for.  The facts way too heavily in favor of Jesus and the things he did, that I can't ignore them or try to explain them away.  I have seen many attempts at trying to disprove it, but none stand true with the evidence given.

 

Your basis for fact is coming from too few sources, biased sources, and is not well researched as far as I have seen so far. I appreciate you asking questions & digging in a little bit. If you really want the facts, keep digging, because right now you're working off of limited propaganda for your sources.

 

Please, try and actually read some of the books we've given you. Reading links & the quickly refuting them is one thing, but it's hardly enough to say you have facts. Do some really honest research for us then come back here & debate with us. The fact is we have researched and found stone cold facts, we've been in the game 10, 20, 30, 40+ years for most of us on this site. And most of us have done serious hardcore research to find the truth.

 

Right now I'm hearing that you're not open to that. You go on for two paragraphs about how you believe in the Bible. WE KNOW THIS. Why do you have to restate it? Is it because of a voice inside yourself that needs to reaffirm it because you're not entirely sure of it?

 

I too am looking forward to you telling us the specifics of your denomination so we can better know where you are coming from. Generalities are all you seem to give us so far, which says to us that you really haven't studied. Yes, you've refuted a few verses, but you've attacked the conjecture & surface issues, not the deeper ones.

 

And that's all fine, it's just where you're at right now. Hopefully since you've been on here you're opening yourself up to the idea that there's much more out there than you've been listening to so far.

 

Now because I trust and have faith in God does not mean that I'm going to test him.

 

This all but confirms what I was just talking about. This to me says that you're too scared to find out that what you believe may just be false. It's says to me that you aren't willing to be open to change & aren't truly considering what we have to say may have any weight.

 

Does it make sense, that because Jesus said "believers" will be able to drink poison and not be harmed, that I go and drink poison to see if it is true?  No, this does not make sense, however, this does not mean that, when forced to drink poison, a christian has not come away from it unharmed.  I can find you many stories of christians healing people and christians speaking in tongues.

 

I can give you many stories as well showing how non-Christian people survived miraculous circumstances. This proves nothing.

[Panther]

I apologize to the people who are waiting for certain responses from me, just understand that I'm getting a lot of information thrown at me.  Please be patient in waiting for my responses. 

 

I am a man who trusts in God.  I trust that what the bible says is fact.  I trust that there really was a man named Jesus, both because the bible says so and because other writings have proved it.  I believe in what Jesus stood for and the things he commanded us to stand for.  The facts way too heavily in favor of Jesus and the things he did, that I can't ignore them or try to explain them away.  I have seen many attempts at trying to disprove it, but none stand true with the evidence given.

 

Now because I trust and have faith in God does not mean that I'm going to test him.  Does it make sense, that because Jesus said "believers" will be able to drink poison and not be harmed, that I go and drink poison to see if it is true?  No, this does not make sense, however, this does not mean that, when forced to drink poison, a christian has not come away from it unharmed.  I can find you many stories of christians healing people and christians speaking in tongues. 

 

Does this mean I can drink poison without being harmed?  I don't want to find out.  If I do it just to find out, then probably not, but if for some reason, I am forced to because I'm a christian, then who knows? 

 

I need to go now, but the next question that I will try to get to is defining my God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks for writing Dario~ I can certainly understand that you have a life outside of here...and yes, we can be patient. We aren't going anywhere.

 

You know, I used to be like you. Well, not exactly....I'm not sure your "brand" of xtianity yet, but I had enough "faith" to move mountains, as my daddy said.

 

I have also had countless loved ones that have passed on, including my dad. For me to let go of the idea of a "heaven" was tough. Even tougher, to admit to myself there is a very good possibility that there is nothingness after death.

For someone that loved her dad more than life, this was not easy to deal with and I'm still dealing with it today.

 

My point is....we understand. We were there. I know sometimes that christians say that we must have not been true christians. Well, that's a canned response and simply not true either. I know my heart and how dedicated I was and I doubt no one else on that either.

 

Like others, I had a rough road many times in my life and I used to pray with my entire being.

 

I want to get you to understand just how complex this really is....it actually blew my mind when I first was in the middle of my "deconverting." There are literally tons of people here that had practiced christianity for 30, 40 years~~ Plus and minus both directions. But even former ministers, preists, you name it.

 

These are folks that had dedicated their life to xtianity.....some people had more time in it than I've been alive....(Im 35).

So...that made me sit up and take notice......I wondered to myself...."what had these people discovered?" I knew whatever it was, it was profound and I wanted to know too. I was hungry to know. I wanted the truth. I was open.

I became "open" because of all the contradictions, all the denominations..(too many) and the actions of the fundies. They contradicted themselves also with their own behavior.

They also called non believers "heathens" and always advised that we were not to even socialize with them. I hated that...it never seemed right to me and I could not shun anyone based on belief. I knew so many great, wonderful to the core people that were non-believers and I felt I would only be cheating myself to deny myself the opportunity of their company. My heart is big. So why did my heart seem bigger than biblegod? We can show you instances in the OT that will probably blow your mind....and will leave you wondering..."how can a GOD act and feel like THAT?"

 

I knew I OWED it to myself to look for myself. It was damn hard to be that honest with myself, to tear down ALL belief systems and start over. It was tough to let go of ideas that I had since childhood.

 

The reason I am telling you this....I felt led. (just kidding! )

But truly, this is an AMAZING site~~

There are so many people that are brilliant, gifted....

 

How I WISH I had access to a place like this when I was younger~~ I could have saved myself SO much time.

I have made life altering decisions when I was a christian that I would have made completely different today. If only I had known.

 

Take care and talk to you later.

[Eponymic]

And no to mention....why bother with the lineage of Joseph when MARY supposedly concieved through the spirit!

 

Talk about patriarchal chauvanism.......if anyone's lineage should be listed in this case, it's MARY'S.

 

But it's not. Nevermind her 9 months carrying a kid other people may have felt she deserved a stoning for (unwed whore). Her lineage remains irrelevant.

 

Funny that isn't it, how Mary, THE MOTHER OF JESUS, doesn't have a lineage or history.

 

What does that say to you Christians? I mean, really.

[Panther]

Funny that isn't it, how Mary, THE MOTHER OF JESUS, doesn't have a lineage or history.

 

What does that say to you Christians? I mean, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly! It says to me that if there even was a Mary....she got knocked up (raped, whatever the case) and took off on a donkey to another place to cover up the whole mess!

[Eponymic]

Exactly! It says to me that if there even was a Mary....she got knocked up (raped, whatever the case) and took off on a donkey to another place to cover up the whole mess!

 

Or she got raped by a donkey, fell in love with it, then roade off on it to another place.

[Pariah]

I apologize to the people who are waiting for certain responses from me, just understand that I'm getting a lot of information thrown at me. Please be patient in waiting for my responses.

 

Fair enough. I'm sorry if I seemed to be impatient with you, I just wanted you to clear up why you seemed to be ignoring certain issues. Consider the matter sufficiently cleared up.

 

I can find you many stories of christians...speaking in tongues.

 

Many non-christians on this website can also speak in tongues (at least in the pentecostal form of tongues, not in the biblical speaking-in-every-language-at-once form).

 

I need to go now, but the next question that I will try to get to is defining my God.

 

Okay, good.

[Panther]

Or she got raped by a donkey, fell in love with it, then roade off on it to another place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah!!! I think we have a winner!!

 

[dr_funkenstein]

Dario:

 

Have you ever looked into the pagan origins of Christ? Do you know anything about Dionysus, Mithras, Horus or the other pagan "god-men" that predate Christ?

 

When you look at the elements of the Jesus story you find none that are unique. All are reflected in other religions of the time. I'm talking about elements like:

- Virgin birth

- Divine father, mortal mother

- Performs miracles

- Provides salvation through substitutiary sacrifice

- Resurrection from the dead

- Ascension to heaven

 

To name but a few.

 

Not only that, but did you know that there were many "mystery religions" at the time that promised salvation to their followers, but the knowledge of salvation was secret? We see evidence that early Christianity followed this same pattern with ideas such as the parables which made no sense except for those to whom the explanation was given.'

 

Indeed, early Christianity, viewed in context, is very much like many of the other religions of the time. It's apparent that it borrowed heavily from its predecessors and contemporaries.

 

How do you respond to this?

[Eponymic]

Indeed, early Christianity, viewed in context, is very much like many of the other religions of the time. It's apparent that it borrowed heavily from its predecessors and contemporaries.

 

How do you respond to this?

 

To further the Funk,

 

There is also mass evidence showing that certain doctrines of the Bible were added slowly over time. In fact the Bible wasn't even fully compiled into a working book until the 5th century. Quite the long time after the supposed savior's time to get his book out.

 

I mean heck, J.R.R. Tolkein wrote a mythology for an entire world and had it all published in less than 30 years.

[JeffXL]

Now wouldn't it be more suspicious if all 3 writers had written the same thing, even though they come from different perspectives?  The fact is they complement each other rather than contradict.  Just because one writer doesn't include all of the people that were at the tomb, doesn't mean they weren't there.  For example, when you have 2 pens, you will always have 1 pen.  When there is 2, there is always

 

No, it's a contradiction, and the Bible is full of them. If it's important that people know how many pens I have, I give them the exact number. Why can't God get his story straight?

 

But Christians always employ these bizarre mental contortions to salvage the lies in the Bible.

 

I'm looking forward to the fantasy you'll cook up for the contradiction of Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18. Really, it's one or the other.

[dr_funkenstein]

Now wouldn't it be more suspicious if all 3 writers had written the same thing, even though they come from different perspectives?  The fact is they complement each other rather than contradict.  Just because one writer doesn't include all of the people that were at the tomb, doesn't mean they weren't there.  For example, when you have 2 pens, you will always have 1 pen.  When there is 2, there is always

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no problem accepting harmony of gospels where there are omissions of certain details. I get that. It's easy to see how the gospels writers would want to place emphasis on certain themes, perhaps not mention certain things because they weren't important to the point they were trying to get across.

 

Here's what I'd like you to do dario:

 

Look at the easter account - starting on the morning of easter sunday - from each gospel. For each gospel's account, write down a list in order of the events that each gospel writer chose to include. After you've done this for all four gospels, try and come up with one harmonic account of what happened that day.

 

I will accept omission as non-contradiction. Will you accept the challenge?

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Proof of the non-existance of God: Common Sense. Obviously, no Biblical Creator was involved in that one, having not a whit of it It/Her/Himself.

 

Proof #2:

 

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.

 

The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.'

 

'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

 

'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

 

'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing.

[Ms. K]

Dario,

 

When you write about "many accounts of healings and miracles in modern times", keep in mind that they're all hearsay.

 

Not only is hearsay not admissible in court for a good reason, as it tends to be unable to be substantiated with actual proof, but around here, nobody falls for the FOAF stories.

 

Oh, and just so you don't ask me later, FOAF = Friend Of A Friend. That's how urban legends get started.

[duderonomy]

Asimov,

Just great. I read damn near all of this thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back!

I'd be pissed, except you had the Fundie Zombie Reply thing down so good in your responses that I was taking mental notes for one big reply.

I've thought of doing the same thing myself a few times, just to see if I still 'had it'.

I'm sure my efforts would pale in comparison to yours.

My hat's off to you, in a grudging way.

 

[Mr. Neil]

I am a man who trusts in God.  I trust that what the bible says is fact.

Why do you do that? How is that any different than saying that you trust any other ancient myth?

 

 

I trust that there really was a man named Jesus, both because the bible says so and because other writings have proved it.

What other writings? Most of the historians from the first century recorded no such man ever existing, and the ones who appear to mention him are extremely questionable. The alleged passage by Josephus, for example, is widely recognized as a forgery, because there's no way a Jewish historian working for Rome would write a passage either praising Jesus or calling him the Messiah.

 

 

I believe in what Jesus stood for and the things he commanded us to stand for.  The facts way too heavily in favor of Jesus and the things he did, that I can't ignore them or try to explain them away.  I have seen many attempts at trying to disprove it, but none stand true with the evidence given.

Again, what evidence?

 

Now because I trust and have faith in God does not mean that I'm going to test him.  Does it make sense, that because Jesus said "believers" will be able to drink poison and not be harmed, that I go and drink poison to see if it is true?  No, this does not make sense, however, this does not mean that, when forced to drink poison, a christian has not come away from it unharmed.  I can find you many stories of christians healing people and christians speaking in tongues.

So in place of an actual demonstration, you want us to accept anecdotes of healings. That's not good enough. Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind of evidence you can find to support an argument. The reason is because people lie, they misremember, and mishear things all the time. It is for this reason that we're not going ot accept stories.

 

Besides, the Bible says nothing about the willingness of the person to drink poison. It just says that believers can drink poison and not be harmed. The only condition is that you believe in Jesus. It doesn't say anything else. It doesn't say anything about being forced (we're not forcing you, anyway).

 

Listen. We don't want you to drink the poison, anyway. I certainly wouldn't want you to have to get your stomach pumped (or worse, die) and have that on my conscience for the rest of my life. So please don't drink any poison, as that will certainly earn you a one-way trip to the hospital.

 

What we're trying to do here is demonstrate to you how absurd these texts are. And deep down, you know it's absurd, too. You won't drink poison, because you know that it's not going to work. To be brutally honest, you don't have faith in it at all.

 

 

Does this mean I can drink poison without being harmed?  I don't want to find out.  If I do it just to find out, then probably not, but if for some reason, I am forced to because I'm a christian, then who knows?

Again, you're displaying that you don't actually have faith in what the Bible is plainly telling you. The Bible says, in no uncertain terms, that believers can drink poison without getting harmed. It provides no conditions for this statement.

 

The Bible says that if you are a believer, you can drink poison. And the reason you won't do it, is because you know that it's wrong. You have no faith in what the Bible is plainly telling you.

 

 

I need to go now, but the next question that I will try to get to is defining my God.

No secondary attributes, please.

[dario]

I want to thank those of you who waited patiently for my responses instead of hurrying me. Panther, I just want to let you know that I read a few of the testimonies when I first came to this site. I had no doubt in my mind that a lot of these people were once strong Christians. I do understand where a lot of them are coming from, so I apologize if I ever sounded like I know more about the bible than some of you. I realize that I don't.

I said I would define to you the "God" that I worship. Seeing that there were given many attributes to the God of the bible, I will start by saying that I worship Jesus, who claimed to be God. If this is a fair enough statement, then I eagerly await the responses of others. If it is not, then give me your objections and I will try to elaborate. I also want to mention to those who have doubts about me, I am not just sitting here debating with you without actually doing research. I have been to the library several times checking out books on the authenticy(sp?) of the bible and Jesus. I have been taking notes on key issues that we are talking about. I must admit, however, that it has been rather difficult to "study" since I've been out of school for awhile.(When I say awhile I mean 4 years, which I realize many of you have been out far longer than that)

I also want to state that many of you are posing very difficult questions, that either, A. I don't have the information to answer it right away or B. It is unanswerable. Now, obviously I don't think we have had many questions that are unanswerable, so I don't have to worry about that one.

I want to let everyone know that I sincerely appreciate your questions. Some of you who question me are sincere about it, while others are....less sincere. Whatever the case, it is getting me to think. I enjoy doing research on this topic(maybe not as much with the science stuff) so I want to thank you for pushing me.

 

Just to let everyone know I am only 22 years old. I became a Christian when I was 10 years old and didn't start walking in the faith until high school. I live in Cleveland where I am a devoted Browns fan.(Please abstain from any negative remarks you care to make about this) If you don't want to listen to my comments on God, then listen to this. Super Bowl baby!!

[Asimov]

I want to thank those of you who waited patiently for my responses instead of hurrying me.

 

Hi Dario, I don't think we had much of a chance to talk, and sometimes when Christians first come on here I automatically just revert to "asshole" mode, so if I insulted you, then I'll apologize. I've been reading through this thread and am interested in what you have to say.

 

Seeing that there were given many attributes to the God of the bible, I will start by saying that I worship Jesus, who claimed to be God.

 

The only problem with that, is that Jesus was a man, therefore if we are to define what a god is, it would be a man.

 

There is a huge problem with what God is. It's not self-evident, and stating that God is God is a problematic definition if one does not know what a god is.

 

Now, if Jesus is God....we know that God is temporal, corporeal, and visible. Would you agree with that?

[Panther]

Hi Dario!

Glad to see you back!

 

I'm glad that you understand that my responses to you are sincere.

 

I DO understand that this is a hard thing for christians to do..to actually stretch their minds out to even question all of this.

 

I started to have doubts and I came to this site. For a long time, I just read and read and studied. I still am doing so. But everything I found, evidence wise, pointed to the non existence of the bible god.

 

This was hard for me and for many others before me. It's shocking, mind numbing and upsetting. I spent my whole life (since childhood) believing in God. I still remember the single moment that it all came together in my mind..this untruth.

I could think of nothing else for days. I think it is similar to a grieving process, what I went through.

 

I wanted to ask you if you go to any certain church? What has been your involvement?

 

There are a lot of christians that come here just to debate and get people to try to leave. I don't believe you are one of those...I believe you are seeking answers.

There are so many good people here. Honestly, I saw more arguing on the christian forum that I used to moderate. I couldn't believe how mean the christians were to each other...it got really stressful there.

 

Anyway, just wanted to say hello to you!

[dario]

Hi Dario, I don't think we had much of a chance to talk, and sometimes when Christians first come on here I automatically just revert to "asshole" mode, so if I insulted you, then I'll apologize.  I've been reading through this thread and am interested in what you have to say.

The only problem with that, is that Jesus was a man, therefore if we are to define what a god is, it would be a man.

 

There is a huge problem with what God is.  It's not self-evident, and stating that God is God is a problematic definition if one does not know what a god is.

 

Now, if Jesus is God....we know that God is temporal, corporeal, and visible.  Would you agree with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

First off, I want to thank you Asimov for your apology, even though I don't think you insulted me. I also apologize if I ever offended you, for that was not my intention. You would have to agree with me that it can become pretty heated in here when we each have strong beliefs in certain things. I will try to remain calm.

You are correct in saying that Jesus was a man, but I believe that he was also God. However, before we start going into that subject I think it is appropriate that we first see if Jesus was a real figure in history. Thankful, I promise that I will try to explain why I think Jesus claimed to be God, but I think we should first prove in Jesus' existence. Obviously, the bible says there was a man named Jesus, but we need information outside of the bible. I've been doing some research and found a few documents that have mentioned Jesus. I'm not going to write everything down that I found because of the quantity, however, if you want I can expound on my info.

In the first century, Josephus, a Jewish historian, wrote The Antiquities, which was a history of the Jewish people from Creation until his time. In The Antiquities he describes how a high priest named Ananius took advantage of the death of the Roman governor Festus-who is also mentioned in the New Testament-in order to have James killed. Another passage says, 'He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named, James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others.'

Another passage out of The Antiquities:

 

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

 

There are 3 phrases out of this passage that Christian copyists might have inserted. 1)"if indeed one ought to call him a man." 2)"He was the Christ." 3)"On the third day he appeared to them restored to life."

 

Another historic writer, Tacitus, in A.D. 115, writes:

 

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstitution, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty: then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

 

This is an important testimony by an unsympathetic witness to the success and spread of Christianity, based on a historical figure-Jesus-who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. And it's significant that Tacitus reported that an 'immense multitude' held so strongly to their beliefs that they were willing to die rather than recant.

 

Here is the last one I am going to share with you, sorry about the lenghth of this post.

 

In book 10 of Pliny the Younger's letters he specifically refers to the Christians he has arrested.

"I have asked them if they are Christians, and if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for execution; for, whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness and unshakable obstinacy ought not to go unpunished....They also declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery, and adultery... This made me decide it was all the more necessary to extract the truth by torture from two slave-women, whom they called deaconnesses. I found nothing but a degenerate sort of cult carried to extravagant lenghths."

 

This was probably written about A.D. 111, and it attests to the rapid spread of Christianity, both in the city and in the rural area, among every class of persons, slave women as well as Roman citizens, since he also says he sends Christians who are Roman citizens to Rome for trial.

 

We can conclude seven different things about Jesus from ancient non-Christian sources:

1) Jesus was a Jewish teacher. 2) Many people believed that he performed healings and exorcisms. 3) Some people believed he was the messiah. 4) He was rejected by the Jewish leaders. 5) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. 6) Despite this shameful death, his followers, who believed that he was still alive, spread beyond Palestine so that there were multitudes of them in Rome by A.D. 64. 7) All kinds of people from the cities and countryside-men and women, slave and free- worshipped him as God.

 

That is some of the information that I found concerning Jesus; if that looks agreeable, I can move on to the other statements about Jesus claiming to be God.

Once again, I apologize for the length of this post.

[dario]

Hi Dario!

Glad to see you back!

 

I'm glad that you understand that my responses to you are sincere.

 

I DO understand that this is a hard thing for christians to do..to actually stretch their minds out to even question all of this.

 

I started to have doubts and I came to this site. For a long time, I just read and read and studied. I still am doing so. But everything I found, evidence wise, pointed to the non existence of the bible god.

 

This was hard for me and for many others before me. It's shocking, mind numbing and upsetting. I spent my whole life (since childhood) believing in God. I still remember the single moment that it all came together in my mind..this untruth.

I could think of nothing else for days. I think it is similar to a grieving process, what I went through.

 

I wanted to ask you if you go to any certain church? What has been your involvement?

 

There are a lot of christians that come here just to debate and get people to try to leave. I don't believe you are one of those...I believe you are seeking answers.

There are so many good people here. Honestly, I saw more arguing on the christian forum that I used to moderate. I couldn't believe how mean the christians were to each other...it got really stressful there.

 

Anyway, just wanted to say hello to you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hi, Panther, thank you for being courteous. In answer to your question, I went to an Evangelical Mennonite Church, which eventually changed its name to Fellowship of Evangelical Christian, dropping the Mennonite name. I then went to a non-demoninational church that is well known in Northwestern Ohio. And now I just moved to Cleveland with my wife and we are just starting to get involved in another Fellowship of Evangelical Christians. However, this church is a little bit different than the one I used to go to. This church is more seeker centered meaning it focuses more on the non-Christians in the community.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you in on my motives for being here. I am not here just to debate with all of you and get you to accept Christianity again. I enjoy discussing these topics and digging deeper into my faith. Going to forums like this encourage me to seek the real truth and not the "truth" I hear behind the pulpit. However, I don't want to mislead anybody into thinking that I am seeking the answers because I'm questioning. I am not seeking because I question my faith. I am seeking because it is good to have a strong foundation in my faith. I have faith that God will lead me to the truth. If I come to what I think is a wall, I need to research more. Just letting you know where I am at.