Disprove God

[Asimov]

You are correct in saying that Jesus was a man, but I believe that he was also God.  However, before we start going into that subject I think it is appropriate that we first see if Jesus was a real figure in history.  Thankful, I promise that I will try to explain why I think Jesus claimed to be God, but I think we should first prove in Jesus' existence.

 

Well, Dario, I think first you should know that were he to be a real figure in history, this in no way validates that claims in the bible, just as the discovery of the city of Troy in no way validates the claims that Achilles was the son of a Goddess.

 

In The Antiquities he describes how a high priest named Ananius took advantage of the death of the Roman governor Festus-who is also mentioned in the New Testament-in order to have James killed.  Another passage says, 'He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named, James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others.'

  Another passage out of The Antiquities:

 

First, we must take into account that Josephus was born after the dated death of Jesus, so all he had to go on was hearsay.

 

The second thing we must take into account, is that some of the first copies of Josephus that were found had a few statements about Jesus....yet earlier documents contained no such statements. It is believed that Eusebius and his followers added them in, and it's a forgery. You should remember that Eusebius was known for stating that "lying for Jesus" was okay.

 

  There are 3 phrases out of this passage that Christian copyists might have inserted.  1)"if indeed one ought to call him a man."  2)"He was the Christ."  3)"On the third day he appeared to them restored to life."

 

Correct. Therefore Josephus is unreliable at best.

 

Another historic writer, Tacitus, in A.D. 115, writes:

 

I have a list of 27 reasons why the Tacitus account is unreliable. Listing them all would probably destroy the bandwidth on this site. I will list a few of them, they are from Rook Hawkins (a Christian, btw) on the Infidelguy website.

 

1. The style of the passage is inconsistent.

 

2. In all the Roman records there was to be found no evidence that Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate. If genuine, such a sentence would be the most important evidence in pagan literature. How could it have been overlooked for 1360 years?

 

3. There is no vestige or trace of this passage anywhere in the world before the 15th century.

 

4. The phrase "multitudo ingens" which means "a great number" is opposed to all that we know of the spread of the new faith in Rome at the time. A vast multitude in 64 A.D.? There were not more than a few thousand Christians 200 years later. The idea of so many just 30 years after his supposed death is just a falsehood.

 

5. Tacitus is also made to say that the Christians took their denomination from Christ which could apply to any of the so-called Christs who were put to death in Judea, including Christ Jesus.

 

In book 10 of Pliny the Younger's letters he specifically refers to the Christians he has arrested.

This was probably written about A.D. 111, and it attests to the rapid spread of Christianity, both in the city and in the rural area, among every class of persons, slave women as well as Roman citizens, since he also says he sends Christians who are Roman citizens to Rome for trial.

 

Once again, from Rook Hawkins:

 

(1) It proves nothing in regard to the existence of Jesus, but only affirms the existence of Christians.

 

(2) If the passage is referring to Christians, then it is also saying Christians sold the flesh of their sacrificial victims.

 

(3) Roman laws accorded religious liberty to all. Before Constantine there was not a single law opposed to freedom of thought.

 

(4) Trajan was one of the most tolerant of Roman emperors.

 

(5) Pliny is universally conceded to have been one of the most humane of men. That Pliny would have tortured two women is highly unlikely. The person and character of women in Pagan Rome were held in high esteem.

 

(6) The letter implies Bithynia had a large Christian population which is improbable at that early date.

 

(7) The passage implies Trajan was not acquainted with Christian beliefs and customs even though Christians were quite prominent in his capital.

 

(8) For Christians to be found in so remote a province as Bithynia before acquiring notoriety in Rome is unlikely.

 

(9) Pliny says they sing a hymn to Christ as to God which Christians in Pliny's time would consider blasphemous since Jesus was no more than a man to them. His divinity was not established until 325 A.D.

 

(10) This letter is found in only one ancient copy of Pliny.

 

(11) The German literati, the most learned, say the epistle is not genuine.

 

(12) The genuineness of this correspondence of Pliny and Trajan is by no means certain. The tendency of the letters to put the Christians in as favorable a light as possible is too obvious not to excite some suspicion. For these and other reasons the correspondence was declared by experts to be spurious even at the time of its first publication in the 16th century.

 

(13) The undeniable fact is that some of the first Christians were among the greatest forgers who ever lived. This letter was first quoted by Tertullian and the age immediately preceding him was known for fraudulent writings. Tertullian and Eusebius, the people infavor of the passage's genuineness, were by no means the most reliablesources

 

That is some of the information that I found concerning Jesus; if that looks agreeable, I can move on to the other statements about Jesus claiming to be God.

Once again, I apologize for the length of this post.

 

Now, regardless of what I have said, even if Jesus were to be proven to be a historical figure, it shows nothing that that Gospels are correct. There are no contemporary sources that mention Jesus, even the Gospels were written at least 30 years after he supposedly died.

[Panther]

Hi, Panther, thank you for being courteous.  In answer to your question, I went to an Evangelical Mennonite Church, which eventually changed its name to Fellowship of Evangelical Christian, dropping the Mennonite name.  I then went to a non-demoninational church that is well known in Northwestern Ohio.  And now I just moved to Cleveland with my wife and we are just starting to get involved in another Fellowship of Evangelical Christians.  However, this church is a little bit different than the one I used to go to.  This church is more seeker centered meaning it focuses more on the non-Christians in the community.

  Anyway, I just wanted to let you in on my motives for being here.  I am not here just to debate with all of you and get you to accept Christianity again.  I enjoy discussing these topics and digging deeper into my faith.  Going to forums like this encourage me to seek the real truth and not the "truth" I hear behind the pulpit.  However, I don't want to mislead anybody into thinking that I am seeking the answers because I'm questioning.  I am not seeking because I question my faith.  I am seeking because it is good to have a strong foundation in my faith.  I have faith that God will lead me to the truth.  If I come to what I think is a wall, I need to research more.  Just letting you know where I am at.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And I appreciate that Dario. I can certainly understand and think that it's wonderful to always have a strong foundation in one's life. I am one who believes that one always needs to stand for something.

 

Hope you enjoy your time here and hope you stick around for a while and discuss.

 

I'm on the go today, but look forward to talking with you in the near future.

[Pariah]

I said I would define to you the "God" that I worship. Seeing that there were given many attributes to the God of the bible, I will start by saying that I worship Jesus, who claimed to be God.

 

Okay, that's good for a start. But what characteristics do you believe God has?

 

Do you believe God is peaceful or hateful, or both? Do you believe he is all-powerful? All-knowing? What is his ultimate goal for humanity, as far as you know/can guess? Did he dictate the Bible or just inspire it? In what ways does he interfere in human affairs and does he directly excercise control over our fates?

 

These are the kinds of questions which will really tell us which interpretation of the christian god we are discussing here.

 

And it's significant that Tacitus reported that an 'immense multitude' held so strongly to their beliefs that they were willing to die rather than recant.

 

Are you trying to imply that because this passage says early Christians would not recant their beliefs that this lends validity to Christianity? If you are, I understand where you're coming from but other religious groups in history have also been strongly persecuted for their beliefs and they did not back down either. The only specific example that springs to mind is the early Mormons.

 

Just to let everyone know I am only 22 years old. I became a Christian when I was 10 years old and didn't start walking in the faith until high school.

 

Is there any particular reason why you were drawn to Christianity that you could share with us?

 

Going to forums like this encourage me to seek the real truth and not the "truth" I hear behind the pulpit.

 

An admirable goal.

[Merlinfmct87]

Truth? I thought christianity was based upon FAITH.  You can't have both. If its true, then you don't need Faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Blown away, zfunkman. Just blown away. Simple, direct, and to the point.

 

I once asked Paul Manata if he believed that one line in Psalms that says atheists can do no good. He said yes.  I see now that I should have asked him about this verse.  I would love to see the looks on the faces of guys like Paul, Jason Gastrich, Jimmy Swaggart, and Peter Poppoff if anyone actually challenged them to drink poison to show that it does them no harm.

 

Now I don't want to see them drink the poison.  I'm not that morbid.  I'd be ready to smack the bottles out of their hands if any of them found the courage to actually drink poison.  "JASON!  NO!"

 

You just know that he'd be the one, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Mr. Neil, you're the only person I know who can insult a person as they are saving that same person's life.

 

Dario,

 

I've been reading through this thread and respect your ability to question honestly. I have some points for you that disproved the Bible for me personally.

 

The first has already been made, we have scientifically disproved any hope of Genesis being literally true. How can God not know how he put together his own creation?

 

Simple answer to that is he didn't know because the God of the Bible didn't create the Universe... he himself was created by Humans.

 

Remember that old saying, on the sixth day, God created man, on the Seventh, Man returned the favour?

 

Point two comes from the Bible itself - Matthew 24:34.

 

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

 

...written almost 2,000 years ago. We're still waiting.

 

Standard apologist answers are:

 

1) - Jesus was Lying/Mistaken.

 

Obviously this isn't terribly popular among the faithful.

 

2) Explanations must be provided to finangle an excuse why "all these things" and/or "soon" and/or "this generation" don't mean what they say.

 

Making excuses for God's words...

 

3) Events occured exactly as Jesus said they would, and we just need to figure out what he meant.

 

One has to ask what worth a prophecy is if we can't even tell if it happened or not.

 

In other words, if we didn't notice, what't the point?!

 

There is, of course, Option 4.

 

4) Jesus simply didn't know... because he wasn't God.

 

This ties in perfectly with Thankful's point about false prophets...

 

Point three has already been mentioned - the striking similarity between Christianity and the other Pagan religions of the time. Extra evidence for it being man-made.

 

Merlin

[dario]

Okay, that's good for a start. But what characteristics do you believe God has?

 

Do you believe God is peaceful or hateful, or both?  Do you believe he is all-powerful? All-knowing? What is his ultimate goal for humanity, as far as you know/can guess? Did he dictate the Bible or just inspire it? In what ways does he interfere in human affairs and does he directly excercise control over our fates?

 

These are the kinds of questions which will really tell us which interpretation of the christian god we are discussing here.

Are you trying to imply that because this passage says early Christians would not recant their beliefs that this lends validity to Christianity? If you are, I understand where you're coming from but other religious groups in history have also been strongly persecuted for their beliefs and they did not back down either. The only specific example that springs to mind is the early Mormons.

Is there any particular reason why you were drawn to Christianity that you could share with us?

An admirable goal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, first off I want to say that the reason I chose to talk about Jesus, when talking about which God I worship, is because Jesus is easier to define than God is. It is easier to see what Jesus stood for. The reason why I didn't start off by explaining why I follow "God" is because it is much more difficult. I will be honest, the things I know about God, all-knowing, all-powerful, are because I either read accounts saying he was these things, or because i heard it from the pastor. I haven't personally tried studying God's character, because I knew I was getting into something that was hard to understand. Don't misinterpret this by saying "You know deep down there is no such thing." I just know there isn't a lot of information into God's character. We can only figure that out by the things he does and says. So with that said, I hope you can understand why I am not first, explaining God, but instead, Jesus. I need to study who God was before I can start explaining him.

 

 

Also, I'm sorry if it seems like my responses are coming in late. The computer I use is in my Aunt's room and she goes to bed early. Another reason is that a lot of you are refuting my information with other information so I am trying to figure everything out by reading books and what not. I really am trying to look for proof. Anyway, I'm going to go to bed now, but tomorrow I will try and provide more evidence about Jesus and the Gospels. Pariah, about your questions concerning God, that question will have to wait until I get more information. I hope you understand. Hope you all have a good night. Go Browns!

[Pariah]

Ok, first off I want to say that the reason I chose to talk about Jesus, when talking about which God I worship, is because Jesus is easier to define than God is.

 

Maybe it;s just me but I actually find Jesus's motives just as hard to figure out as the christian father-god's motives. Just for one example: why did Jesus hush up his miracles if he wanted to save people? Another one: did Jesus come to bring peace or conflict?

 

The reason why I didn't start off by explaining why I follow "God" is because it is much more difficult.

 

Okay, that's understandable.

 

I will be honest, the things I know about God, all-knowing, all-powerful, are because I either read accounts saying he was these things, or because i heard it from the pastor.

 

It's nice to find a Christian who can actually admit stuff like this.

 

I hope you can understand why I am not first, explaining God, but instead, Jesus. I need to study who God was before I can start explaining him.

 

Okay, I get that. Just understand that no one here can really meet your challenge to disprove your god before you define him.

 

Also, I'm sorry if it seems like my responses are coming in late. The computer I use is in my Aunt's room and she goes to bed early. Another reason is that a lot of you are refuting my information with other information so I am trying to figure everything out by reading books and what not. I really am trying to look for proof. Anyway, I'm going to go to bed now, but tomorrow I will try and provide more evidence about Jesus and the Gospels. Pariah, about your questions concerning God, that question will have to wait until I get more information. I hope you understand.

 

No problem.

 

Goodnight, Dario.

[Amethyst]

Seeing that there were given many attributes to the God of the bible, I will start by saying that I worship Jesus, who claimed to be God.

 

So if there were a delusional person 2000 years ago, and he believed he was god, and other people believed him and wrote it down in a book we now call the Bible, you would believe it simply because it was written in a book?

 

I guess I should start worshipping Gandalf now. There's just as much evidence for his existence as there is for Jesus'.

[Asimov]

Another reason is that a lot of you are refuting my information with other information so I am trying to figure everything out by reading books and what not.

 

Shite, I forgot to source:

 

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-5522-0.html

[Amethyst]

Another reason is that a lot of you are refuting my information with other information so I am trying to figure everything out by reading books and what not.

 

Have you read The Jesus Mysteries? Or The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read? If not, you should.

[Christopher Carrion]

The biblical god as established in genesis is an amalgamation of several deities derived from Ancient Mesopotamian culture, whose names he is, interestingly enough, attributed with in that very tome. El was the High prince of the ancient Mesopotamian deities, and thus it is from him that the biblical God derives its authority. Yahweh was quite an angry and vengeful type whom eventually broke away from the established pantheon and formed a small, monotheistic cult of its own, whom eventually flourished coincidentally (sarcasm) during the self same period that Genesis, a text establishing "Yahweh" as not only the ultimate God but the ONLY God is produced. Blah.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I have read many posts where people have said that God is not real.  They ask Christians to prove that there is a God.  I was wondering if someone could give me legitimate proof that there is no such thing as God.  I have no agenda by asking you this question, it is for curiosity only.  Disprove that there is a God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know if God exists or not. I do know that if God does exist, it is in a form that has NOTHING to do with the way the Divine is described in the Bible.

 

1. There is absolutely no reason why a limitless, immortal, all-powerful being would be male. No reason for there to be a Holy ZoZo. Since Yahweh does not in fact have a wife in the Christian view (except for the Mormons) and has no need to physically reproduce, the idea that this "transcendent force" has dangly bits is absolutely ridiculous. But it exists--because MEN controlled people's understanding of the Divine in that culture. Those in power always want to cement their rule by divine sanction whenever possible. Therefore, suddenly God grows a cock and men, obviously, are therefore "closer to God" and must be obeyed. "Women submit to your husbands" and all that crap. It's misogyny, silly, and really sounds like what it is--bullshit made up by a bunch of primitives with a very limited understanding of the Divine, and who tainted their perception of it heavily with their own personal prejudices, self-delusions and sociopolitical agendas.

 

2. If God is a superior being, it would not in fact be weighted down by human prejudices and foibles. Homophobia, sexism, racism, jealousy, vengefulness, murderousness, elitism, cruelty...these are human FLAWS. HUMANS are the ones who want to stick their noses into each other's sex lives and otherwise try and tell each other what to do. HUMANS came up with the concept of Hell. HUMANS are the crazy, neurotic fuckers who have gotten it into their heads that a gentle philosopher killed for his beliefs was THE SON OF GOD and his death a necessary HUMAN SACRIFICE. None of this correlates with the concept of a perfect, loving God. In fact, if there IS a God, I would daresay that the Bible has done more to drive people away from that divine source than anything else in this world--because it's made it look like some sort of bloodthirsty madman in the clouds! A friend of mine made the comment, "the Bible is the Antichrist". A close look causes me to begin to see his point.

 

3. Why would God give us all perfectly good brains and then expect us not to use them when presented with improbable crap? The anti-intellectualism of modern Christianity is largely meant to keep the masses in line. "Believe without question". "Your rulers have the blessing of God, obey them." It's the same trick that's been used hundreds of different times in dozens of different cultures. Religion as Opiate.

 

4. According to the Bible, God used to run around causing miracles and disasters all the time. So where are they now? Did he get tired or something?

 

5. According to the Bible, God is merciful and just, and answers the prayers of the devout. I prayed and was devout IN THE EXTREME for twenty years, and never got so much as a moment's comfort as answer.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I didn't ask, Mike D.

 

white_raven, as shown in the Bible, God has chosen a distinct gender, the one which He bestowed upon the dominant gender.  Just as God is the Father of all His children, men are the Fathers of all their Children.  Just as God is dominant over all in His House, men are dominant in their houses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

*laughs her ass off* Note my lengthy explanation above on how fucking ridiculous the idea of a "transcendent" god of definable sex is.

 

Oh, and by the way, Holy-Penis-Boy? Men aren't "the dominant sex" by nature--patriarchy is an artificial construct based in lies meant to enslave one half of the species and exalt the other. The idea that God has a cock himself and that somehow provides sanction for this act of megalomanaical cruelty? That was the idea of ORDINARY MEN WHO WANTED TO JUSTIFY THEIR RIDICULOUS POSITION TO THE MASSES WHEN IT WAS NOT FEASABLE TO USE FORCE.

 

That being said...I strongly suggest you let women know exactly what you think of our sex before asking them out on a date. It will save you several hard slaps across the face later when you try and get them to "submit".

 

Pig.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

How else could he rape and impregnate Mary right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're forgetting that bit about Gabriel and the turkey baster, remember? Yahweh, as the Babble describes him, is a neurotic bastard with a real mad-on against fucking.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

LoT = SBF???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wouldn't be surprised there either.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

To do as I am commanded, to spread the Word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We've heard it all already. You're done. Go home.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Yes, that is quite true.  I take it on faith because I feel the light of God on me and I trust Him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm afraid that you're in for an even more horrible disappointment than I got.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

OMG, I can't do this any longer.....I'm laughing so hard, and trying to think of things to say, but it's impossible for me to be this dumb.

 

It's me, Asimov.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Dammit! He got me. Ah well, I as in a foul mood.

 

*throws a cream pie Asimovwards*

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I know, it's too beautiful for you to look upon....jackass...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Fuck. At least it was good practice!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Copy that verbal ammo and save it! That was some good stuff.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

And no to mention....why bother with the lineage of Joseph when MARY supposedly concieved through the spirit!

 

Talk about patriarchal chauvanism.......if anyone's lineage should be listed in this case, it's MARY'S.

 

But it's not. Nevermind her 9 months carrying a kid other people may have felt she deserved a stoning for (unwed whore). Her lineage remains irrelevant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet another reason why I left the whole mess. A related issue--Lot offering up his daughters to be raped, and then raping them himself when he was drunk and BLAMING THEM.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Yeah, and his is more understandable, to boot!

 

To further the Funk,

 

There is also mass evidence showing that certain doctrines of the Bible were added slowly over time. In fact the Bible wasn't even fully compiled into a working book until the 5th century. Quite the long time after the supposed savior's time to get his book out.

 

I mean heck, J.R.R. Tolkein wrote a mythology for an entire world and had it all published in less than 30 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ouroboros]

Here's a good proof for God not to exist:

 

Pray to FSM for rain sometime next year.

If the rain comes, FSM exists.

And FSM and God can not co-exist, so God can't exist.

 

Ha! FSM is bigger and bad-er than Glob!

[Eponymic]

Ok, first off I want to say that the reason I chose to talk about Jesus, when talking about which God I worship, is because Jesus is easier to define than God is.  It is easier to see what Jesus stood for.  The reason why I didn't start off by explaining why I follow "God" is because it is much more difficult.  I will be honest, the things I know about God, all-knowing, all-powerful, are because I either read accounts saying he was these things, or because i heard it from the pastor.

 

So are you admitting that your knowledge base is off of hearsay. Because that is what it sounds like.

 

I haven't personally tried studying God's character, because I knew I was getting into something that was hard to understand.  Don't misinterpret this by saying "You know deep down there is no such thing." 

 

If this is the case, then it sounds like you are indeed working off of hearsay for your knowledge base.

 

 

I just know there isn't a lot of information into God's character.

 

Explain please.

 

Are you saying that you don't know God very well so you can't really make any presumptions about it?

 

We can only figure that out by the things he does and says.  So with that said, I hope you can understand why I am not first, explaining God, but instead, Jesus.  I need to study who God was before I can start explaining him.

 

You're saying God's actions tell us who God is. That being true, if you are using a preset criteria (i.e. the Bible) to judge and place a value upon God's actions, then you're not really taking God's actions for what they really are, right?

 

I appreciate your willingness to study. It's a very good thing.

 

Hope you all have a good night.  Go Browns!

 

Go Chargers!!!

[Ouroboros]

The whole "Prove God doesn't exist" is just a rhetorical fallacy that falls under the appeal to ignorance.

 

Example:

 

P1) No one has proved that UFOs don't exists.

P2) All propositions that have not been disproved are true.

-

C) It is reasonable to conclude that UFOs do exists.

 

Dario want to use the same argument for God instead of UFOs.

 

(Just a little lesson in rhetorics)

[Asimov]

Where did Dario go? I want him to comment on my stuff.