My Boss Dressed Like A Kkk Member

[ContraBardus]

Hitler and Mussolini are dead. Nazi's and Fascist are not gone. Both groups are still active and have members, even countries.

 

The argument that 'they are both dead' is bunk. Both are still active, and if I'm not mistaken, both still have far more members than the KKK.

 

The men are dead, the idea is very much alive. It's no different than dressing as a Nazi or Fascist for Halloween. Even as a local. It's far less offensive than going about in Blackface or putting a diaper on your head.

 

It's just an argument from ignorance to claim that it's not okay because two of their former leaders are dead.

 

I should also point out, that hurting someone dressed as a Confederate Soldier for a costume party on a costume holiday is more than good enough reason to get -your- ass kicked around here.

 

Racist don't dress that way. If you see it around here, it's one of two things. Halloween, or a reenactment is going on somewhere nearby.

 

Most of the people I know who do dress that way for Halloween are using their reenactment costume and pulling a double duty with it, or lent it to someone for the holiday. If you screw with someone for it and hurt them, there's a very good chance you will literally find a couple of [multi-ethnic] regiments of soldiers, both blue and gray, looking for your sorry butt. Most of those kinds of people are former or active military.

 

KKK outfits are common costumes around here. It's not unusual, nor is it particularly frowned upon by anyone but the most overly sensitive. It's no different than dressing as a Zombie in New Orleans, or going about in Native American Dress or in a Cowboy costume. It's part of the culture, and fitting for a costume holiday.

 

You go around any other day of the year dressed that way and you'll have problems. We don't particularly like Klan members in the South in general. They aren't treated with respect and are ridiculed when they go about on the streets. They get banned from parades, and are not welcome in most places even in the Deep South.

 

That's the reasoning behind dressing as one for Halloween. It's not a gesture of respect, but one of ridicule. It's seen as making fun of them, or dressing as something scary or evil. No worse than wearing a werewolf mask or going as a demon or vampire.

 

You don't have to do it yourself if you're uncomfortable with it. However, pressing one's own insecurities on another over a Halloween costume isn't right. It's not racist, it's making fun of racism. Some people make a living at doing that, these days it's generally not white comedians that do it.

 

I like Chris Rock, but his bread and butter is exactly that. I think he's funny, but a good majority of the Asian, Latino, and Black comedians I've seen make their living doing racist jokes about each other and white people. The real difference is intent and malice. They aren't being serious, and neither are the vast majority of those who dress that way for a costume party or holiday.

 

Complaining about it is just being an overly sensitive wuss. It doesn't break your leg, pick your pocket, or promote racism to do it. If you're offended by such a thing, it's a personal problem on your end.

 

Take the meaning behind it as it's intended.

 

[Guest ephymeris]

It's just an argument from ignorance to claim that it's not okay because two of their former leaders are dead.

 

I should also point out, that hurting someone dressed as a Confederate Soldier for a costume party on a costume holiday is more than good enough reason to get -your- ass kicked around here.

 

Racist don't dress that way. If you see it around here, it's one of two things. Halloween, or a reenactment is going on somewhere nearby.

 

Most of the people I know who do dress that way for Halloween are using their reenactment costume and pulling a double duty with it, or lent it to someone for the holiday. If you screw with someone for it and hurt them, there's a very good chance you will literally find a couple of [multi-ethnic] regiments of soldiers, both blue and gray, looking for your sorry butt. Most of those kinds of people are former or active military.

 

KKK outfits are common costumes around here. It's not unusual, nor is it particularly frowned upon by anyone but the most overly sensitive. It's no different than dressing as a Zombie in New Orleans, or going about in Native American Dress or in a Cowboy costume. It's part of the culture, and fitting for a costume holiday.

 

You go around any other day of the year dressed that way and you'll have problems. We don't particularly like Klan members in the South in general. They aren't treated with respect and are ridiculed when they go about on the streets. They get banned from parades, and are not welcome in most places even in the Deep South.

 

That's the reasoning behind dressing as one for Halloween. It's not a gesture of respect, but one of ridicule. It's seen as making fun of them, or dressing as something scary or evil. No worse than wearing a werewolf mask or going as a demon or vampire.

 

You don't have to do it yourself if you're uncomfortable with it. However, pressing one's own insecurities on another over a Halloween costume isn't right. It's not racist, it's making fun of racism. Some people make a living at doing that, these days it's generally not white comedians that do it.

 

I like Chris Rock, but his bread and butter is exactly that. I think he's funny, but a good majority of the Asian, Latino, and Black comedians I've seen make their living doing racist jokes about each other and white people. The real difference is intent and malice. They aren't being serious, and neither are the vast majority of those who dress that way for a costume party or holiday.

 

Complaining about it is just being an overly sensitive wuss. It doesn't break your leg, pick your pocket, or promote racism to do it. If you're offended by such a thing, it's a personal problem on your end.

 

Take the meaning behind it as it's intended.

 

 

I don't appreciate you insinuation that I'm ignorant or an overly-sensitive wuss because I think wearing a KKK uniform (even in jest) is offensive. I never stated I would "press my own insecurities" on anyone's choice of Halloween costume. People are free to choose to look like jackasses in this country. You may find my reaction stupid but it doesn't stop me from feeling visceral disgust at the site of someone dressed this way. I didn't mean to give the impression that I would be totally comfortable with someone dressed as Hitler, I wouldn't be. I was just putting my two cents out there as to why it seems to be more aacceptable to mock Hitler, et al these days.

 

I was born and raised in Louisiana and while many people would react negatively to the KKK, there are still some that are accepting of this hate group. My highschool mascot was Johnny Reb and we flew confederate flags from our trucks as we drove around town, wore them as clothing, wore them temporary tattoos on our faces, and cheered Johnny Reb on horseback on a weekly basis for pep rallys and games as recently as the year 2000! Good for you that confederate soldiers are still so revered in your neck of the woods. I wish I wouldn't have been subjected to the southern norm of bigotry in the guise of pride and honor.

 

I have had distant family members that were ranking members in the KKK so to act like it's dead and gone in the south it quite optimistic. My own family, old church, and hometown community are still quite racist so I guess you'll have to just pardon my "oversensitivity" to bigotry, I've been immersed in it's reality for most my life and now I get to spend the rest of my life turning off what I've learned over the years. Guess I'll just continue to be a big old wuss and enjoy my freedom to express disgust at a poor choice in costume while others enjoy their freedom to wear it.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

You don't have to do it yourself if you're uncomfortable with it. However, pressing one's own insecurities on another over a Halloween costume isn't right. It's not racist, it's making fun of racism. Some people make a living at doing that, these days it's generally not white comedians that do it.

 

I like Chris Rock, but his bread and butter is exactly that. I think he's funny, but a good majority of the Asian, Latino, and Black comedians I've seen make their living doing racist jokes about each other and white people. The real difference is intent and malice. They aren't being serious, and neither are the vast majority of those who dress that way for a costume party or holiday.

 

 

 

 

We need a song for this:

[ContraBardus]

We need a song for this:

 

Ah, truth disguised at comedy. Great song.

 

Also, I agree with you Emphymeris and you are quite correct. You do have a right to feel disgusted and uncomfortable with it.

 

It's also a problem on your end.

 

It's you who feels uncomfortable and disgusted with it. Most people in fact don't. It's a matter of context and intent, and your sensitivity should not be a concern. You cannot please everyone and a majority of people do not care how others dress for Halloween and with good reason.

 

I think you're taking it far too seriously. I pointed out that the argument that was being made is faulty, and it is.

 

The fact that Hitler is dead and Mussolini with him does not eliminate the existence of Nazi's or Fascist. They both still exist, and it's not uncommon or considered out of the realm of taste by the majority to dress as them in costume in the proper context. As in a costume party or holiday. Nor is it the position of the majority that dressing as a KKK member is out of taste either. It's just a small minority who needs to get over it and grow up in my opinion.

 

It's a matter of intent, if there isn't any, there's no reason to get upset. There really isn't any excuse for it.

 

Also, I find it odd that someone from the South would so misrepresent Johnny Reb.

 

A majority of confederate soldiers couldn't give a lick about slavery. Most of them didn't own slaves. They were -not- fighting to keep their slaves. The vast majority were fighting over other issues that had little to nothing to do with it. The largest motivating factor for Rebel Soldiers was nationalism, State Pride, and what they viewed as unfair practices by the North to gain economic advantages over them.

 

Some of their gripes were justified and accurate.

 

The South felt oppressed by the Northern States, and the Emancipation of the Slaves was just one minor part of a long list of grievances against the North.

 

The issue with Slavery only effected a small portion of the South. Only the richest men and land owners were effected directly. For the most part, very few of the enlisted had any stake in the matter, and cared little about the Slaves one way or the other.

 

The Civil War had very little to do with Slavery. It was over States rights and Economic difference far more than it was about Slavery.

 

Yes, Slavery was a factor, but it was not the driving motivation for the war. It was a side issue that was related to the other larger issues that motivated the war. It certainly wasn't a concern for the average Confederate Soldier.

 

Learn some History. There's a lot more behind the Stars and Bars than just White Supremacy.

 

Yeah, there's a bit of that involved historically, but there's more to it than that. It's also about State Pride and equality of economics, the ability of States to govern themselves, and standing against the 'oppressions' of the Northern States.

 

The end of Slavery was inevitable anyway. It was becoming economically a moot point. Mechanized farming was already going on in the Midwest, and sooner or later the Slaves would have become unnecessary.

 

It probably would have taken a few more years to be sure, but Slavery would have ended without the need for a bloody conflict on it's own for economic and other reasons anyway. Just like it did in Europe.

 

The Stars and Bars didn't become a symbol of Racism until well after the war. It was Segregation that led to it's use in such a manner. Not the Civil War.

 

The Klan had more to do with that than Johnny Reb. Now, much like the Swastica, it's a tainted symbol that once had positive uses until it was taken up by an unpleasant cause.

 

I suggest learning more about local history before trying to toss such implications on the shoulders of common men who had little to do with the matter to begin with.

 

Very few, if any, Confederate Soldiers fought a war over slaves. It was not their motivation, nor their concern to wage such a bloody battle against what was once their fellow countrymen over such a thing.

 

Only rich old men who were well out of harms way had any stake in that motivation.

 

As for the Klan, they've been chased to the most desolate out of sight places. Nobody takes them seriously. They're just a crazy group of outcasts living on the outskirts of society who are generally not welcome in civilized society anymore. Nobody really likes them, and they exist hidden in shame in the most rural areas, far away from reality. Dreaming of an uprising that's never going to come, and dying ideas that they foolishly believe that all white men secretly harbor.

 

Maybe they do still exist, but their numbers are but a handful, and their ideals considered crazy foolishness. They don't deserve to be anything more than a Halloween costume that no one takes seriously, and that's just what they've become.

 

I think that's a good thing. It's not the last nail in the coffin, but it's enough that the body inside isn't going to claw it's way out.

[Vixentrox]

I'd find someone dressing up like a priest more offensive. They represent 2000 years of violence, terror, sexual abuse and repression. But I bet the crybabies wouldn't object to that costum....

[Jedah]

A boss is just someone you put up with for money. I wouldn't care. Idiots will be idiots no matter what you do.

[Guest ephymeris]

 

Also, I agree with you Emphymeris and you are quite correct. You do have a right to feel disgusted and uncomfortable with it.

 

It's also a problem on your end.

 

It's you who feels uncomfortable and disgusted with it. Most people in fact don't. It's a matter of context and intent, and your sensitivity should not be a concern. You cannot please everyone and a majority of people do not care how others dress for Halloween and with good reason.

 

I think you're taking it far too seriously. I pointed out that the argument that was being made is faulty, and it is.

 

The fact that Hitler is dead and Mussolini with him does not eliminate the existence of Nazi's or Fascist. They both still exist, and it's not uncommon or considered out of the realm of taste by the majority to dress as them in costume in the proper context. As in a costume party or holiday. Nor is it the position of the majority that dressing as a KKK member is out of taste either. It's just a small minority who needs to get over it and grow up in my opinion.

 

It's a matter of intent, if there isn't any, there's no reason to get upset. There really isn't any excuse for it.

 

 

I think it's great you know the opinion of and speak for the majority. You have the right to feel your way and I have the right to feel my way. This forum is for expression of opinions. I don't have a problem over this, I'm not the costume police, I don't walk around condemning costumes. I will also tell you I've never been in public, at a costume party, in a place of business where someone dressed as the klan or Hitler even though I celebrate Halloween with enthusiasm every year. The OP voiced an opinion over how someone's costume made him feel and I happen to agree with it. I don't like the tone of superiority in your reply to me, just because I don't agree with you. This isn't my "problem" its my opinion.

[ContraBardus]

 

I think it's great you know the opinion of and speak for the majority. You have the right to feel your way and I have the right to feel my way. This forum is for expression of opinions. I don't have a problem over this, I'm not the costume police, I don't walk around condemning costumes. I will also tell you I've never been in public, at a costume party, in a place of business where someone dressed as the klan or Hitler even though I celebrate Halloween with enthusiasm every year. The OP voiced an opinion over how someone's costume made him feel and I happen to agree with it. I don't like the tone of superiority in your reply to me, just because I don't agree with you. This isn't my "problem" its my opinion.

 

You don't have to agree with me, but as you said. I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are yours.

 

My opinion is that you should get over it and not take it so seriously.

 

It's both a problem and an opinion. You don't like it so it's a 'problem' but it's also your opinion. Not every problem is something a person acts on, just disliking something is a problem in and of itself. Perhaps not a major problem, but you do have a problem with it, and it's obvious that you do from your posts.

 

I personally feel that the issue is on your end of the equation.

 

I can speak for the majority in this case, because dressing as a KKK member for a costume party is common, and very few people express the slightest worry or bother about it. Most people do not care, especially in the case of adults.

 

It's a matter of context and intent, and no one should care what you think. There are just as many people who would complain about a sexy devil costume, or any other revealing costume. They would be just as disgusted as you are in this case.

 

Does that mean no one should wear revealing Halloween costumes out of fear of offending others with it?

 

It's the exact same thing. Worrying about the sensibilities of others is not something a person should worry about when choosing a costume. As I said, any costume is going to offend somebody. Regardless of what it is, someone is going to be mad about it for some reason.

 

So why worry? Why care? Why take it so seriously? It's not important.

 

Being overly racially sensitive about a Klan costume with no ill intent or actual racism behind it is no different than being overly prudish about a slutty costume at a costume party for adults.

[Vomit Comet]

I should also point out, that hurting someone dressed as a Confederate Soldier for a costume party on a costume holiday is more than good enough reason to get -your- ass kicked around here.

 

Racist don't dress that way. If you see it around here, it's one of two things. Halloween, or a reenactment is going on somewhere nearby.

 

Most of the people I know who do dress that way for Halloween are using their reenactment costume and pulling a double duty with it, or lent it to someone for the holiday. If you screw with someone for it and hurt them, there's a very good chance you will literally find a couple of [multi-ethnic] regiments of soldiers, both blue and gray, looking for your sorry butt. Most of those kinds of people are former or active military.

 

Listen buddy, I'm just saying: it's not socially acceptable on this side of the country. In the more polite company that I roll with nowadays, 'Johnny Reb' would be asked to leave, and if he tried to stammer out the kind of explanations you've just served up, it would fall on deaf ears. I personally would think the guy was a complete idiot, and would be one of the people telling him to leave. As for my brother, you couldn't pay him $500 to show up to a Halloween Party dressed in his reenactment uniform, and he ordinarily has little qualms about pissing people off.

 

Btw, my brother was in a reenactment of the battle of Fort Tejon (one of the small battles that took place in California) and he was on the Confederate side. He's Mexican. And he also happens to know that if he sees a pickup truck with a rebel flag on it in Los Angeles County, that there's a fairly high chance that the window will roll down and a glass bottle is going to fly out aimed at his head. Around here, a rebel flag is a notch or two below a swastika or a Celtic cross, and is immediate cause for hostile suspicion, or even fear for personal safety.

 

I don't care what the deal is in the South, because this ain't the South. This is the West Coast. If someone flies a rebel flag around here, 8 times out of 10 they're some kind of overt racist, and chances are a swastika isn't far away. On the West Coast, it is a symbol of White Supremacy. You can blame the White Supremacists themselves for that; you can't blame ordinary people like me. The part of L.A. County where my brother and I are from was and still is one of the biggest hot spots in Southern California for white supremacist street gangs. Also, in the mid 1990s, the 5th biggest Klan rally in U.S. history (at the time; it's probably been bumped down since) took place five miles from our house. We grew up knowing that if we saw a rebel flag, there was a fair potential for some really bad shit to go down.

 

If you're saying it should become socially acceptable here, then you're wasting your breath. It'd be about like saying that Southern schoolchildren should be made to celebrate the anniversary of Sherman's March. "Hey, the North were the good guys, and nobody alive today was actually there. And you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, right?" Not a very nice thought, is it?

[Vomit Comet]

Only rich old men who were well out of harms way had any stake in that motivation.

 

Ever heard the term "ruling elite"? Johnny Reb was the peon of those wannabe aristocrats clinging desperately to their outmoded way of life. Just like Billy Yank was the peon of the industrialists who didn't want to lose their grip on Southern resources. England almost jumped in because they were licking their chops over all that cotton going directly to their mills.

 

Wiki: Slavery and the Civil War

 

Wiki: Causes of the Civl War

[ContraBardus]

Only rich old men who were well out of harms way had any stake in that motivation.

 

Ever heard the term "ruling elite"? Johnny Reb was the peon of those wannabe aristocrats clinging desperately to their outmoded way of life. Just like Billy Yank was the peon of the industrialists who didn't want to lose their grip on Southern resources. England almost jumped in because they were licking their chops over all that cotton going directly to their mills.

 

Wiki: Slavery and the Civil War

 

Wiki: Causes of the Civl War

 

That was the point. It was a misrepresentation of the motivations for the war, Johnny Reb in particular, as if the racism was derived directly from the conflict in the Civil War I was pointing out. Johnny Reb is not a symbol of racism in the same manner as the Confederate Flag is.

 

For the most part he was a working man, and a grunt. Not a slave owner. He had no stake in the argument for slavery. His fight was about State's Rights, and Economic conditions. Unfair trade practices by the North and other issues that effected him. That's why he fought, it wasn't about slavery to the regular rank and file at all. They pretty much didn't care, and to be honest, neither did the North.

 

The war was just used to push through Emancipation. It used political leverage and bad blood between the North and South to get it done. It wasn't exactly well liked even in a lot of the North and a lot of representatives were against it even there.

 

The Civil War wasn't some universal crusade for good and Freedom as it's often portrayed in modern society. Emancipation was hotly contested and barely happened.

 

You don't run around waving the Stars and Bars dressed as a Confederate Soldier even at Halloween around here. The only place it's considered appropriate by the population at large is in a reenactment or marching in a parade as a regiment. You go without the flag in costume for something like Halloween.

 

The Stars and Bars is a non-issue in this case. I did mention the negative connotations for it in the same post, and you seem to have ignored it. It came about later, and wasn't related to the war, but it's use by White Supremacist groups and segregationists later on.

 

Much like the Swastica, which didn't originally have negative meaning behind it. It was a Christian symbol used by the Church, and shows up on a lot of old Church buildings in Europe. The Nazi party made it what it is today, it's original purpose was less sinister.

 

Also, it's not like that here. I could care as much about 'how it is in California' about as much as you care about how it is here.

 

Interesting to know, but a majority of the Country is not like that. The Midwest and the entire Northeast coast could care less for the most part. I've seen many Halloweens in those areas, and quite a few KKK and Civil War costumes. No one bats an eye. I've even seen a few win costume contests with them in my day.

 

How things are in California does not effect my opinion on the matter. It's not like that most anywhere else.

 

Maybe it is a problem in your neck of the woods, but it's pretty much isolated cases in particular areas and not the case in the majority of the Country in my experience, and I've been around quite a bit.

 

Maybe a difference in opinions between Rural and Urban areas? I'm pretty sure that in the East, it's pretty universal that it's acceptable and for the most part, no one cares.

 

Perhaps there are more sensitive areas in the South that might not care for it. Those who still have major problems with the active groups and racism.

 

It's mostly dead though, [though it does still exist, but as I said, so do Nazi's and Fascists] and I still think it's not a problem on the costume wearer's end.

[Vomit Comet]

How things are in California does not effect my opinion on the matter. It's not like that most anywhere else.

 

Maybe it is a problem in your neck of the woods, but it's pretty much isolated cases in particular areas and not the case in the majority of the Country in my experience, and I've been around quite a bit.

 

I've lived in Las Vegas, Nevada, for the past 5 years and it's pretty much like that here, too.

 

Maybe a difference in opinions between Rural and Urban areas?

 

Los Angeles County is HUGE; the northern 1/3 of it is mountains and desert. I grew up in what used to be a semi-rural cow town that later got turned into a suburb of L.A. but still retained a fair amount of its former character. Didn't fit the SoCal stereotype too terribly much, especially on the rural outskirts.

 

I'm pretty sure that in the East, it's pretty universal that it's acceptable and for the most part, no one cares.

 

Pretty sure it'd be the same deal in New York, Boston, and Jersey. Although I remember seeing Rebel flags everywhere in western Pennsylvania and it scared the shit out of me and my mom (I was 14 at the time). We thought we might be in danger, because we certainly would have been back home if there were that many rebel flags concentrated into one place.

 

I'll give you an example: Bakersfield, which is as close to western Oklahoma as you're going to get and still be in California. Most of California does not fit the popular stereotype; only the narrow coastal slice between L.A. and a hundred miles north of the Bay does. (Most Americans do not seem to realize this.) California's huge, it's almost as big as Texas, and much of its interior is agriculture and cows.

 

Anyways, there's a suburb of Bakersfield called Oildale. Up until about 1995, there was a sign posted next to a public street entering Oildale that said "If you're black, don't let the sun set on your back." Bakersfield locals told me "they see Oildale as a place where whites are free to be white." If you go in, you'll see a Rebel flag flying from every other house, open displays of Nazi paraphernelia, and swastikas tagged on every wall. An entire swath of it is basically a white supremacist colony. As an aside, the place looked downright 3rd world in terms of the conditions it was in.

 

At any rate, you seem to be implying that it's some kind of moral or intellectual failure that California isn't like the so-called "Real America" or the South or whatever. It makes me think that you really do care.

 

It's mostly dead though, [though it does still exist, but as I said, so do Nazi's and Fascists] and I still think it's not a problem on the costume wearer's end.

 

Around here, a Kluxer costume would only work if the guy was making it very clear that he was viciously mocking the clan. For example, wearing a pink sash with flowers on his pointy hat while pretending to be flamboyantly gay. Or a black guy dressed like a Kluxer, which I've actually seen done before, and it was an outrageous hoot! Basically, if it would get your ass kicked at first sight (or worse) if you showed up at a Klan parade alone, it'll fly.

 

If a white guy showed up dressed like a Kluxer with no overt sign that the KKK was being explicitly mocked, everyone would assume he was completely out of his mind, and possibly suicidal. And I'm actually not exaggerating.

 

Remember Die Hard 3 when the terrorists forced John McClane to walk into Harlem wearing a sandwich board that said "I Hate Niggers"? Remember how the black guys who spotted him stood there in stunned disbelieving silence for a few seconds before they finally reacted? And how Samuel L. Jackson's character told him to pretend to be retarded/mentally ill?

 

Yeah. That.

[qec]

Guys, look, who cares? There's a cultural disconnect between you two. Seriously. You are both right.

[Vomit Comet]

Question: would it be okay to dress like a Kluxer, or more mildly (I'll concede) like Johnny Reb, at a Halloween Party where you knew that at least 50% of people there were going to be black/non-white? Would they be considered "uppity" or "ignorant of history" were they to object?

[Vomit Comet]

For the most part he was a working man, and a grunt. Not a slave owner. He had no stake in the argument for slavery. His fight was about State's Rights, and Economic conditions. Unfair trade practices by the North and other issues that effected him. That's why he fought, it wasn't about slavery to the regular rank and file at all. They pretty much didn't care, and to be honest, neither did the North.

 

"For the most part, he was a working man, and a grunt. Not a fanatical anti-Semite. He had no stake in the Jewish Question. His fight was about..."

 

I was really hesitant to do that, because I can't rightly say it's morally equivalent. I just want to make that clear upfront. The only reason I did it was for rhetorical purposes, in order to poke a hole in your argument.

 

Also, a few things:

 

- Support for Secession was much higher in regions that had concentrations of slave plantations. In regions that didn't, support was much lower. My great-great-something grandfather had two sons. Both of those sons had several sons. The sons of one man all went Union. The sons of the other man all went Rebel. Family legend has it that they passed each other in silence on the street as they walked to the opposing sides to enlist. This was in the mountains of eastern Tennessee.

 

In other words, the "brother against brother" thing was far more true in hillbilly country than it was down yonder in the Land of Cotton.

 

My great-great-great grandfather was on the Union side of the family. He became a guerrilla raider and ended up being tied to a stump and shot in Alabama.

 

- The average person did have some stake in slavery. Many had extensive kinship ties to local plantation owners, and becoming an overseer or a slavehunter was a very respectable middle-class position for an average poor dirt farmer to aspire to. The relationship between elites and non-elites in the South was more personable and more local than in the industrial cities of the North. It was closer to some kind of pre-modern feudal arrangement, in that regard.

 

- Pile after pile of documentation and public records indicates that the preservation of slavery was the issue du jour. The others on the list (tariffs, etc.) were small fry compared to that.

[Guest ephymeris]

I don't want to re-hash the causes and conflicts of the civil war. I just think of how it would make my non-white friends (or worse, my coworkers!) feel if I showed up wearing a replica of a KKK uniform. How would they look at me? Would they burst into laughter and say "Oh, you know her, she's so funny!" and pat me on the back for not taking things too seriously? Would they look at me stunned, unable to understand why that would be my choice of costume? Would they wonder about my motivations and assume I was doing this as a slap in the face? Would they wonder if I was intentionally trying to insult them?

 

CB, you say you've seen this costume at Halloween parties and that it's a common site at Halloween for you. Maybe that's our disconnect. I have NEVER seen someone dressed as a KKK member or tyrannical dictator for fun at Halloween. I just haven't. I can't imagine a friend of mine doing that. I had a black friend who one year dressed as "white trash" and I thought that was pretty funny but then again, white trash have never enslaved me, denied my right to be a human being, or stood as a symbol of hatred and fear. I'm not as stuffy or sensitive as you might think, I'm usually the bawdy one but I can't imagine dressing as a KKK member. I'm not trying to argue you are wrong or that I'm right, I'm just telling you where I come from. I'm sure you will just tell me this is "my problem" but I don't think empathy is a problem.

 

Is it so important to me to dress as a KKK member to poke fun that I would endanger my friends' feelings? Not to me. Also, the OP said this occurred at work. I can tell you this would definately not have been allowed where I work. I work with patients and coworkers alike from all over the world of many different faiths and backgrounds. The KKK may never have directly offended them but I think the sight of someone in the uniform would send a very confusing, if not offensive, message. That's where I'm coming from if anyone cares.

[ContraBardus]

It's contextual, as I've repeatedly said.

 

And BTW White Trash isn't racism? Since when? Guess what, that's the clan out of uniform. It's just as offensive as dressing in sheets. I wouldn't say a word about it, but it's just as bad as it would be if I went dressed up as Buck Wheat.

 

It is a cultural difference. Most of America doesn't care, most of the South doesn't care. If a majority of people care where you live, or there's a severe problem with major racism, then that's a different issue.

 

Around here, going to work dressed as a KKK member for Halloween [and only for Halloween] won't even raise eyebrows. I've spent most of my time on the East Coast, and it's pretty much the same everywhere I've spent a Halloween. I spent a couple in the Midwest as well. Each time I saw a handful of such costumes. It wasn't more than a few, but no one seemed to notice or care about them either.

 

Also, the Confederate Soldiers and Nazi Soldiers analogy is a very good one. Most of the German Rank and file were not evil men. They weren't all Jew hating monsters, they didn't all agree with the policies of the Nazi's. They were normal decent and largely Christian men who did their best to fulfill their duties as soldiers.

 

The majority of them were human beings and as much men of Honor as the Allies. There was very little difference between the common soldiers on either side.

 

A Nazi soldier fought for many of the same reasons as a Confederate Soldier. National Pride, Germany was hurting after the first World War, and a lot of what happened to it as a result was not very good for them.

 

Hitler came along and did a lot of good at first. He gave them a sense of purpose, built an infrastructure, spoke out against the very real injustices against the German people by the rest of Europe as fallout from the first World War.

 

He didn't start rambling about Jew hate and shoving people in ovens to get into power. He earned their trust, -then- he abused it. Very few Germans were actually aware of the real extent of 'the Final Solution'.

 

The resulting mess of betrayal and racism was largely motivated by fear. Hitler brought his fist down once he had gained enough control and power, and did away with anyone who did not step in line. Most of the Germans cared little about destroying the Jews, but had good reason to worry about their own necks if they didn't go along with the rank and file of the situation.

 

Some did what they could, but could not show openly what they were doing. It was not an entire country engulfed in evil, but in fact a small minority using fear and control to literally force normal decent people to do horrible things to save their own families and lives.

 

Hitler and his cronies were undoubtedly evil, even though they probably did not believe they were. The average German soldier was human, and largely good people caught in a bad situation. They fought for their country, not the ideals of the Nazi's necessarily.

 

So, yes. It's a very good analogy, but not because it's the argument you intended it to be either. History is much more complex than something as simplistic as wars over racism. Neither war was fought as a battle against or for a particular race, their freedoms, or their lives. It was just one part of a much larger and more complex monster that had gotten out of control in both cases.

[Vomit Comet]

Edit: I had a big long post that was pretty good, but I don't want to perpetuate this. So now I bow out.

[Vigile]

My opinion is that you should get over it and not take it so seriously.

 

My opinion is that you are being an ass. I like your posts. You are generally quite thoughtful and your posts are knowledgeable and well thought out. There is no need to get all high and mighty over this issue. I don't see ephymeris making a big deal out of this; she just gave her reaction to it. I personally don't feel people have a 'right' to not be offended but her response to this shows me that she is a caring an empathetic individual so why should she apologize for it or get over it?

[qec]

My opinion is all of you need to stfu, seriously. There are serious cultural disconnects here and all of you are completely missing this very crucial point. No, I won't point them out. Getting into some heated argument with those cultural disconnects being present is just not worth it and won't go anywhere. Just drop it.

[Vomit Comet]

My opinion is all of you need to stfu, seriously. There are serious cultural disconnects here and all of you are completely missing this very crucial point. No, I won't point them out. Getting into some heated argument with those cultural disconnects being present is just not worth it and won't go anywhere. Just drop it.

 

Some things need to be confronted. This is one of them, in my opinion.

[qec]

My opinion is all of you need to stfu, seriously. There are serious cultural disconnects here and all of you are completely missing this very crucial point. No, I won't point them out. Getting into some heated argument with those cultural disconnects being present is just not worth it and won't go anywhere. Just drop it.

 

Some things need to be confronted. This is one of them, in my opinion.

 

In my opinion this is not one of them. In my opinion there is a huge cultural disconnect between you two. Also, before you start calling me a KKK or something, I fully support what Abe Lincoln did, fully. Don't go bashing someone who is practically from a different country (the South) with all these cultural disconnects man, seriously. Look, I know you grew up with racism, and that's sad, but this guy is not racist in any way shape or form and you will be seeing red before you know it if you keep going with this. California and the South are literally two different worlds, as in they aren't even close to the same.

[Vomit Comet]

There's a huge cultural disconnect between myself and a lot of people. Who am I to say that it's "wrong" that many Muslim women have internalized their oppression to the point that they think it is good? But I'm going to go ahead and do so anyways. Just not on this thread.

 

FIN

[ContraBardus]

 

My opinion is that you are being an ass. I like your posts. You are generally quite thoughtful and your posts are knowledgeable and well thought out. There is no need to get all high and mighty over this issue. I don't see ephymeris making a big deal out of this; she just gave her reaction to it. I personally don't feel people have a 'right' to not be offended but her response to this shows me that she is a caring an empathetic individual so why should she apologize for it or get over it?

 

No one was asking for an apology. That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is I don't think it's worth getting upset, offended, or otherwise concerned about, and in my experience, that's how most people feel about the issue.

 

It's a case of 'so what'? Why be bothered by a person who dressed up as a racist for a costume holiday if said person does not normally behave as a racist or promote racism? What's the point in getting all hot and bothered over it? Who cares? Why bother being offended when there's obviously no intent or malice behind it?

 

I think getting upset about something like that does more harm than good. There's no good reason to worry about it. Sounds like wasted energy and unneeded stress to even concern one's self with it.

 

If you don't like the costume, fine. Don't wear one. You can feel any way you want. I don't think being bothered by it is a problem on the costume wearer's side of the issue. I never said 'you're not allowed to feel that way'. I said it's not his fault if someone else doesn't like it. You can't please everyone, and someone is going to be offended no matter what you decide to wear.

 

In my opinion, getting bothered by someone else's costume choice on a holiday like Halloween is being too sensitive.

 

I might have agreed if it had been a racially derogatory costume, such as wearing black face, painting your skin brown and wearing a diaper on your head, or taping your eyes at an angle with buck teeth and glasses. Dressing as a racist is not the same thing as dressing as a racist stereotype.

 

It sort of misses the point of Halloween. Superhero and princess costumes are the norm now, but the original idea is to dress as something scary or evil. Traditionally it's meant to scare off bad spirits or demons by dressing as something worse. So actually, a Klan costume [or a Nazi, Werewolf, Demon, etc.] fits right in with the entire point of the holiday.

 

It's exactly the sort of thing you're supposed to do.

 

Sorry that others don't like his costume. My point was that I don't think he's in the wrong. If anything, he gets the whole point of the holiday. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree, nor am I obliged to agree with the opinions of others on the matter.

 

It's not that important, and I don't think it should be.

 

BTW, my mention of Confederate Soldiers and Nazi Soldiers was only in response to misrepresentation of their motivations and the reasons behind their respective wars and ties to racism. I felt compelled to speak against the blanket statements that portrayed them as worse people with motivations behind their actions that they largely did not have. It was not a defense of the meaning behind the costume itself.

 

I am not trying to justify either group, nor am I denying their -ties- to bad racist ideals. However, the rank and file soldiers were largely not at fault. It was not necessarily their views, and their motivations had little to nothing to do with the racism. The leadership and group as a whole was definitely in the wrong concerning that, but not the individual soldiers Johnny Reb and Jerry. They largely did not represent or care about those particular ideals and generally had more noble ideals as their true motivations.

 

Though, that's not to say all of them necessarily disagreed with them either. It's a lot more complicated than the 'Nazis hated Jews' and 'the Confederates didn't want to free their slaves'.

 

I don't think there was any meaning behind the costume beyond it was something he viewed as scary and evil. Which is exactly what you're supposed to dress up as on Halloween.

[Vigile]

Why bother being offended when there's obviously no intent or malice behind it?

 

What you are not getting is you are the pot calling the kettle black here. You don't want her to make a big deal out of it and here you are 2 pages later still making a big deal out of her making a big deal.