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This Not A True Believer Stuff....arrrghhhh....


Freddy
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Maybe it shouldn't piss me off this much but it does. It's about every other day that I read on a web site or I hear from someone that if I rejected Christianity it's because I never really had faith any way.

 

What kind of judgmental bullshit is that? For one, what kind of idiot even pretends to know someones intentions, especially in regards to a belief system? And secondly, it's arrogant. Because I have took a look at my faith with a critical eye, and found it to be off base, I never had faith? :Doh:

 

I tell you what, I'd like to give out a couple of ass kickings over it. I had a relative look at me with near pity and say "I hope for your sake, you are right." And then she said "There are so many people in the world who are down and out, there must be something better." WTF? Are you kidding me with that shit? Being scared of hell and some people having to suffer is a good basis for believing in a god? Sounds like wishful thinking. I told her she shouldn't pray for me, hope for me, or anything else, because it's condescending and alludes to my having something wrong with me that needs fixing. I know that I had faith, as misguided as it was, for YEARS. It was only when I actually started learning about the Bible that it began to shake. Oddly enough, the more I steeped myself in religion, the more I believe it exposed itself as not being real.

 

When someone tells me that they are going to pray for me, I should say "While your doing that, I'll hope you lose your faith." What kind of reaction would that get? :eek:

 

OK, my rant is over.....just had to get that off my chest. Freddy

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I tell you what, I'd like to give out a couple of ass kickings over it.

 

 

I second that!

 

This is probably something that pisses me off more than anything else. It's arrogant and sickening.

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And then she said "There are so many people in the world who are down and out, there must be something better." WTF? Are you kidding me with that shit?

 

 

So she's doing fine and dandy because she's a christian and if she wasn't she'd be more down and out? What kind of logical BS is that?

 

I hate to hear the "never a believer" argument too. Who the hell do you think you are to make any judgements about my sincerity. Just because I came to my senses now doesn't mean I wasn't sincere when I was wrong.

 

Just proves my theory that people are annoying. :lmao:

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I take a different bent on this whole not a true believer spiel. When I was a Christian the definition of a true believer was someone who was born and literally had Christ indwelling them. Given this definition I would agree with them, I never was a true Christian because I never literally had Christ indwelling me, of course by the same token nobody else is a true Christian because if Jesus ever existed he's dead now and he ain't indwelling anyone.

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Yes, the "never a true believer" bit is annoying.

 

But as annoying fundy arguments go, I prefer it to "you know it's all true, but you're just pretending so you can sin!"

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Yes, the "never a true believer" bit is annoying.

 

But as annoying fundy arguments go, I prefer it to "you know it's all true, but you're just pretending so you can sin!"

 

Oh, yes! That gets me too. Like morality goes hand in hand with religion. My findings have been that religion is only moral in the standards set, not the reality of it. I can sin anyway, I don't need or not need religion for that.

 

I'm glad other people get burned up about this too. I talked to my wife about it this evening and she said that people don't want the fact that I have given up on religion in their face all the time. So, I asked her if I should have religion thrown in mine. Every day on Facebook someone asks me to pray for them, or they want to pray for me. Sometimes when I'm at the dinner table away from home, they say "Let us pray". People say "God Bless You" when I sneeze. They really take their shit and spread it around as if it's a given that they are right and non-intrusive. The second you act anywhere near odd about religion in a social gathering, it's like they are being persecuted and hung on the cross. Freddy

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"You were never a True Christian," is one of the most common responses we get. I hate to think of how many times I've seen that one pop up one way or another just on this site. They usually go for Luke, and the passage where he says, "If they had truly been of us, they would never have left us."

 

There are whole schools of theological thought devoted to that very concept.

 

I realize that you were talking about situations such as reading that shit on a website, but for more personal situations, I'd suggest that the next time it happens, you tie the situation to the person's access to the Holy Spirit (The indwelling, as dagnarus said.), and use it to show them that the very fact that they thought they could use that line on you gives you extremely solid reason to doubt that they "have the Holy Spirit."

 

Why didn't the Holy Spirit tell them the truth about you? Why did the Holy Spirit abandon them to such error?

 

And so forth.

 

Just turn it around on them. There are few things in life as satisfying as taking an attacker's weapon away from them and using it on them.

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The first few times I encountered this I saw white-hot. It was in insult to my integrity and a discount of my experiences. Now I've grown some callouses and realize it's just part of their ignorance. It's certainly understandable why you get pissed though.

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When someone tells me that they are going to pray for me, I should say "While your doing that, I'll hope you lose your faith." What kind of reaction would that get?

 

Never got the "You were never a twoo kwischin" stuff, since I never professed to be Xian in the first place, but I've gotten "I'll pray for you" a couple of times.

 

Tell you what, next time I get it, I'll use your response and let you know how it goes.

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Whenever a fundy says you never were the real thing, ask them how they can be sure they are. After all, if you were convinced you were but really weren't, then how can they know that they aren't similarly deceived.

 

As for a Christian saying that you reject the faith so you can "sin it up", well any Christian who says such is revealing that they in fact believe that salvation is not by faith but works.

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Whenever a fundy says you never were the real thing, ask them how they can be sure they are. After all, if you were convinced you were but really weren't, then how can they know that they aren't similarly deceived.

 

I like that response. :grin:

 

Yeah, Freddy and everybody else, this is an old and tired response that I've gotten an awful lot, too. If talking to certain people I tend to expect it now.

 

It's annoying. I find it helpful to remember that it would likely be truly frightening for them to actually accept that someone could believe as strongly as they do and then someday fall away for logical, philosophical, or whatever reasons... so that argument is simply defensive.

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Quoth Freddy: What kind of judgmental bullshit is that?

 

The self-protective kind.

 

When an ex-Xian stands before a Xian, it's a threat to the security of the Xian's faith. We are living examples that it is possible to lose or leave or stop believing, and plenty of us are far happier and better off for having done so - examples which fly in the face of everything a devoted Xian has been taught about the way things should be. And if our faith appeared strong and unassailable once, can a believer but wonder if their own faith is strong enough to keep them in the fold?

 

We can also present all sorts of reasons why leaving was a good idea, reasons which might cause a listening Xian to doubt his own faith and ultimately threaten his salvation. To proclaim that an ex-believer was never really a believer to begin with is thus a bit like putting on blinders and plugging one's ears and hollering "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!"

 

To say "you were never a TrueChristian™" suggests that an ex-Xian left because of something wrong with them, not because of something wrong with Xianity. It also allows an individual Xian the opportunity to proselytize and offer you the RealXianity™ that you apparently never adequately understood. It helps them feel better about themselves and their own belief. It shields them from having to examine their faith more closely, or entertain even the briefest notion that there might actually be something seriously wrong with the religion they hold so dear. And conveniently, it's written right into the Bible too, perhaps by authors who anticipated or had to deal with just this very thing.

 

That's what I think, anyway.

 

It's still an arrogant pile of crap, but there it is.

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Quoth Freddy: What kind of judgmental bullshit is that?

 

The self-protective kind.

 

When an ex-Xian stands before a Xian, it's a threat to the security of the Xian's faith. We are living examples that it is possible to lose or leave or stop believing, and plenty of us are far happier and better off for having done so - examples which fly in the face of everything a devoted Xian has been taught about the way things should be. And if our faith appeared strong and unassailable once, can a believer but wonder if their own faith is strong enough to keep them in the fold?

 

We can also present all sorts of reasons why leaving was a good idea, reasons which might cause a listening Xian to doubt his own faith and ultimately threaten his salvation. To proclaim that an ex-believer was never really a believer to begin with is thus a bit like putting on blinders and plugging one's ears and hollering "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!"

 

To say "you were never a TrueChristian™" suggests that an ex-Xian left because of something wrong with them, not because of something wrong with Xianity. It also allows an individual Xian the opportunity to proselytize and offer you the RealXianity™ that you apparently never adequately understood. It helps them feel better about themselves and their own belief. It shields them from having to examine their faith more closely, or entertain even the briefest notion that there might actually be something seriously wrong with the religion they hold so dear. And conveniently, it's written right into the Bible too, perhaps by authors who anticipated or had to deal with just this very thing.

 

That's what I think, anyway.

 

It's still an arrogant pile of crap, but there it is.

That is the best summary of this phenomenon that I have ever read. Bravo!

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I got hit with the "never really saved" argument today by our crazy neighbor lady. She's in early stage Alzheimers and needs help for daily functioning but called me crazy for not believing in the sky-spook.

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I find this thing very annoying in concept, but as a few others have said, I sort of agree with them as it pertains to me personally. I was young enough when I stopped believing I can't say that I really got the full xtian experience. Christianity was always an internal struggle for me, something dark and private. But my old church believes that apostasy is possible and expect that most people who get saved end up in hell anyway because of it, so I haven't heard this one much. I am not really sure if they think nonbelievers are only in denial because they want to sin or if they just think we are stupid.

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First things first, watch this video:

 

A Real Christian?

 

Maybe it shouldn't piss me off this much but it does. It's about every other day that I read on a web site or I hear from someone that if I rejected Christianity it's because I never really had faith any way.

 

What kind of judgmental bullshit is that? For one, what kind of idiot even pretends to know someones intentions, especially in regards to a belief system? And secondly, it's arrogant. Because I have took a look at my faith with a critical eye, and found it to be off base, I never had faith? :Doh:

 

I tell you what, I'd like to give out a couple of ass kickings over it.

 

I can understand where you're coming from, and it is indeed extremely frustrating. It pisses me off now.

 

That being said, when I was a believer I held that same position, so I can understand where they're coming from (well, many of them, at least, since there are probably differing motivations). For me, it wasn't a matter of "pretending to know someone's intentions," it was a matter of accepting the Bible as the perfect Word of God, and since there are Biblical texts indicating that believers endure until the end, then if those texts are truly from God, then by logical deduction people who don't endure were never believers.

 

However, I did not have an arrogant attitude about it. I did not think I was better than others. I just blindly accepted the bullshit in the Bible, so my worldview was fucked up. I would certainly have appeared arrogant to nonbelievers, though, and I was absolutely wrong in my assessment of reality, but I had no way of seeing through it at the time.

 

I had a relative look at me with near pity and say "I hope for your sake, you are right."

 

At least this seems to indicate that this individual isn't 100% convinced that her beliefs are right.

 

When someone tells me that they are going to pray for me, I should say "While your doing that, I'll hope you lose your faith." What kind of reaction would that get? :eek:

 

Or you could say that you'll pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for them. ;)

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I take a different bent on this whole not a true believer spiel. When I was a Christian the definition of a true believer was someone who was born and literally had Christ indwelling them. Given this definition I would agree with them, I never was a true Christian because I never literally had Christ indwelling me, of course by the same token nobody else is a true Christian because if Jesus ever existed he's dead now and he ain't indwelling anyone.

 

This is exactly right. Nobody is "born again" because such a condition doesn't really exist, it's all a mind game.

 

Check out the video in my previous post for a rant dealing with this very thing.

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Whenever a fundy says you never were the real thing, ask them how they can be sure they are. After all, if you were convinced you were but really weren't, then how can they know that they aren't similarly deceived.

 

I actually asked my mom - a hard-core right-wing fundy - about this (regarding my atheist aunt, not me), and her reply was along the lines of "Well, you're right, I can't know that I am truly a Christian. I just have to hope and trust God to keep me from being deceived and led astray."

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I actually asked my mom - a hard-core right-wing fundy - about this (regarding my atheist aunt, not me), and her reply was along the lines of "Well, you're right, I can't know that I am truly a Christian. I just have to hope and trust God to keep me from being deceived and led astray."

 

Ah, but 1 John chapter 3 says that you CAN know. Guess she doesn't know her Bible.... ;)

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I find this thing very annoying in concept, but as a few others have said, I sort of agree with them as it pertains to me personally. I was young enough when I stopped believing I can't say that I really got the full xtian experience. Christianity was always an internal struggle for me, something dark and private. But my old church believes that apostasy is possible and expect that most people who get saved end up in hell anyway because of it, so I haven't heard this one much. I am not really sure if they think nonbelievers are only in denial because they want to sin or if they just think we are stupid.

 

So how many "true" Christians are there? Not many, I suspect:

 

Earth's population = 6.7 billion

 

Christians = 2.1 billion

 

Leaves 4.6 billion people who don't worship the Christian god that will go straight to hell. This includes Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists, etc.

 

Out of the 2.1 billion Christians the bible(the honest and truthful word of god) tells us:

 

Those who won't get to heaven are homosexuals, bisexuals, handicapped people, mentally disabled, blind, deaf or dumb, criminals who haven't repented, people who died before they got to repent, little children who don't know about repentance, Christians who weren't really Christians, people who coveted their neighbor's wife, ox or ass, people who worked on the Sabbath, people who had sex before marriage, used contraception, had abortions, committed incest, people who worshiped graven images. those who committed adultery, those who masturbated while thinking of Brad Pitt, Jonas Bros. or Beyonce or JLo and any other thing that offended god.

 

These add up to 2 billion +. What do we have left? 3 people who may get to heaven because they are possibly "true" Christians.

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So how many "true" Christians are there? Not many, I suspect

 

Absolutely ZERO!

 

"True Christians" are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but since that's 100% make-believe, there's no such thing as a "true Christian."

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When christians say that you weren't a true christian in the end what they're saying is they don't believe that you ever truly experienced God's salvation. Guess what, this is what you believe too. In a round about way arguing with them about it could be taken as a tacit admission of God's existence. Why else would you be trying to argue that you once had real experiences of him.

 

Your not offended by the fact that they think your experiences of God are less real than there's. Your offended by the fact that they think that there experiences of God are less fake than your's. So my advice is admit it, you were a fake christian, you thought you were one of God's chosen, predestinated unto sonship, a partaker of the divine nature, but you were wrong, any such experiences of this you may have had were fake, products of your own imagination. Once you've done this, proceed to point out that, the only difference between you and the person who confronted is that you've realized it.

 

In the end, the title "True Christian" only makes sense if thier were a corresponding God to say "he's a true Christian, but that guy's a fake". Otherwise there are just various different groups of people who interpret the bible in different ways and with varying degrees of zealotry.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I find this thing very annoying in concept, but as a few others have said, I sort of agree with them as it pertains to me personally. I was young enough when I stopped believing I can't say that I really got the full xtian experience. Christianity was always an internal struggle for me, something dark and private. But my old church believes that apostasy is possible and expect that most people who get saved end up in hell anyway because of it, so I haven't heard this one much. I am not really sure if they think nonbelievers are only in denial because they want to sin or if they just think we are stupid.

 

So how many "true" Christians are there? Not many, I suspect:

 

Earth's population = 6.7 billion

 

Christians = 2.1 billion

 

Leaves 4.6 billion people who don't worship the Christian god that will go straight to hell. This includes Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists, etc.

 

Out of the 2.1 billion Christians the bible(the honest and truthful word of god) tells us:

 

Those who won't get to heaven are homosexuals, bisexuals, handicapped people, mentally disabled, blind, deaf or dumb, criminals who haven't repented, people who died before they got to repent, little children who don't know about repentance, Christians who weren't really Christians, people who coveted their neighbor's wife, ox or ass, people who worked on the Sabbath, people who had sex before marriage, used contraception, had abortions, committed incest, people who worshiped graven images. those who committed adultery, those who masturbated while thinking of Brad Pitt, Jonas Bros. or Beyonce or JLo and any other thing that offended god.

 

These add up to 2 billion +. What do we have left? 3 people who may get to heaven because they are possibly "true" Christians.

 

 

You forgot the Masons. According to my crazy mother-in-law my father was damned to hell because he was a Mason. That was her way of consoling me I guess. I always figured if my mother-in-law was heaven bound, I didn't want to spend eternity with her around.

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Your not offended by the fact that they think your experiences of God are less real than there's. Your offended by the fact that they think that there experiences of God are less fake than your's. So my advice is admit it, you were a fake christian, you thought you were one of God's chosen, predestinated unto sonship, a partaker of the divine nature, but you were wrong, any such experiences of this you may have had were fake, products of your own imagination[emphasis mine]. Once you've done this, proceed to point out that, the only difference between you and the person who confronted is that you've realized it.

 

None of us were true Christians... and neither are they. I certainly agree with the part of your statement that I've bolded.

 

But I do think that a lot of the offense comes from the allegation that we weren't true BELIEVERS. Because while Christianity is false, the belief was real and sincere. It is offensive for them to imply that we were faking, deliberately deceitful. While I don't consider myself to have been a true believer (just couldn't swallow it all the way), I do know that I tried my best to believe- asking for faith, having long praying sessions, trying to put myself into situations of constant Christian praise/instruction/service, sacrificing huge parts of my life. I don't appreciate being told that I was insincere.

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This is one of those things that I just can't figure out why it bothers me when they have that arguement....it's not like I want any of that ever again, but it still irks me, like I was just "pretending" all those years, even though that's the last thing it felt like. Heck, when I was a christian if I had met my current "self" I may have told myself the same thing LOL!

 

I think it's the last thing for them to fall on - it's the final thing that seperates the questioning christian from the ex-christian. They are so scared of losing their own faith that they have to think that we must not have been "true" christians in order to firm up that they really are. I doubt that most any christian in today's modern society can honestly look at their religion and think it's the only truth without some doubts. Perhaps they squash and try to reason away those doubts, but they're still there, and since we are proof that even "good" christians can walk away, well, they've got to find security somehow.

 

Of course I agree with dagnarus as well, which is why I just can't seem to comprehend why it bugs me when christians throw this out there. It's like I end up feeling like I want to defend something I have no interest in defending - guess it just goes to show how subtle some of their mind-fucking is.

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