This Not A True Believer Stuff....arrrghhhh....

[★ Citsonga ★]

This is one of those things that I just can't figure out why it bothers me when they have that arguement....it's not like I want any of that ever again, but it still irks me, like I was just "pretending" all those years, even though that's the last thing it felt like.

 

Same here. Knowing now that there's no such thing as a "true christian" (someone indwelt with the holy spirit), I have to acknowledge that I also wasn't a true christian.

 

That being said, I was definitely a "true believer" (having a sincere, firm belief in Jesus and the bible), though, so I do get irritated when people make ignorant statements implying that I never really believed. Hell, I WISH I had never really believed, but I DID.

 

Heck, when I was a christian if I had met my current "self" I may have told myself the same thing LOL!

 

I think it's the last thing for them to fall on - it's the final thing that seperates the questioning christian from the ex-christian. They are so scared of losing their own faith that they have to think that we must not have been "true" christians in order to firm up that they really are.

 

So, are you saying that when you were a believer and thought that ex-christians were never true christians, you were simply scared of losing your own faith?

 

As for myself, that was definitely not the case. I did not fear losing my faith, because I didn't believe it could happen. When I said that ex-christians were never really christians, I was simply stating what I believed to be true, based on biblical texts indicating such. It wasn't fear, it was my perceived reality.

 

So, while there probably are some who fall into the category you describe, there are others who fall into the category I was in.

 

I doubt that most any christian in today's modern society can honestly look at their religion and think it's the only truth without some doubts. Perhaps they squash and try to reason away those doubts, but they're still there....

 

I have to disagree. Just a little over 7 years ago, I was a "christian in today's modern society" and I had absolutely no doubt that christianity was true. It was so drilled into my brain from infancy on up that it was incredibly difficult to see outside the box. I had a warped worldview, but it seemed perfectly valid at the time.

 

I think one trap that ex-christians can fall into is that after going through a doubting period and coming to the conclusion that the bible and christianity are bullshit, it becomes so blatantly obvious how delusional the christian worldview is that it sometimes ceases to be conceivable that one could fully believe that stuff. However, that's looking at it with new eyes rather than the eyes we looked through before leaving the faith.

 

Sure, there undoubtedly are christians who have always had nagging doubts that they suppressed, but it would be entirely unreasonable to assume that all christians fall into that category. I, for one, did not have a single shred of doubt as a christian until I was 29, and I can't imagine that I am the only one in modern times who has been so thoroughly indoctrinated.

 

Of course I agree with dagnarus as well, which is why I just can't seem to comprehend why it bugs me when christians throw this out there. It's like I end up feeling like I want to defend something I have no interest in defending - guess it just goes to show how subtle some of their mind-fucking is.

 

Yeah, for me it's a matter of their insinuation that I was insincere and faked it, or that I was deceived and they're not. As for the former, I was totally sincere, and as for the latter, they're also deceived (the difference is that we've realized it, but they haven't). So, I also get pissed off when they throw around their ignorant bullshit, and I am ashamed that I used to do the same (though not with the arrogant attitude that some do it with).

[HRDWarrior]

So, are you saying that when you were a believer and thought that ex-christians were never true christians, you were simply scared of losing your own faith?

 

No, at the time I was convinced I could never lose my faith...however, admitting to myself that a true christian HAD lost their faith, would have put mine in jeapordy as well. I think it was impossible for me to think that a true christian could lose their faith, because as far as I was concerned, god would never have allowed that to happen, so they must not have been true christians. If god would allow people to lose their faith, then that shook the entire foundation of what I believed, so it was never considered a possibility.

 

 

I have to disagree. Just a little over 7 years ago, I was a "christian in today's modern society" and I had absolutely no doubt that christianity was true. It was so drilled into my brain from infancy on up that it was incredibly difficult to see outside the box. I had a warped worldview, but it seemed perfectly valid at the time.

 

I think one trap that ex-christians can fall into is that after going through a doubting period and coming to the conclusion that the bible and christianity are bullshit, it becomes so blatantly obvious how delusional the christian worldview is that it sometimes ceases to be conceivable that one could fully believe that stuff. However, that's looking at it with new eyes rather than the eyes we looked through before leaving the faith.

 

Sure, there undoubtedly are christians who have always had nagging doubts that they suppressed, but it would be entirely unreasonable to assume that all christians fall into that category. I, for one, did not have a single shred of doubt as a christian until I was 29, and I can't imagine that I am the only one in modern times who has been so thoroughly indoctrinated.

 

 

Thing is, christians wouldn't be in a constant war to defend their faith from the evils of evolution, other religions, gays, or any of the other issues if they felt secure in what they believe. Why do they feel the need to completely shelter their children, and brainwash them from childhood on (such as my, and apparently your, parents did) if they weren't concerned? They do have doubts - yes, they reason them away just like I did for over 20 years, but they still are there. Having discussions with my fundy mother prior to my coming out proved this - anytime I got onto a subject that was sensitive or she had no good answers for, she would get extremely upset. I was hitting on areas that she can't resolve herself and chooses to ignore. I can't think of a chrisitian out there who doesn't either ignore, suppress, rationalize, or belittle some nagging question in the back of their mind. There is too much evidence, and too much of a world view to NOT have that unless you live in the mountains with no internet, TV, or communication with the outside world.

 

Yes, most justify those things with arguements that we see by the christians here - but they are still forced to recognize those topics unlike in the past where sometimes they were never confronted with evidence against their faith. Therefore, they all must have some measure of doubt that is suppressed, or else there would never be a need for christian apologetics.

 

 

Yeah, for me it's a matter of their insinuation that I was insincere and faked it, or that I was deceived and they're not. As for the former, I was totally sincere, and as for the latter, they're also deceived (the difference is that we've realized it, but they haven't). So, I also get pissed off when they throw around their ignorant bullshit, and I am ashamed that I used to do the same (though not with the arrogant attitude that some do it with).

 

 

Exactly.

[★ Citsonga ★]

No, at the time I was convinced I could never lose my faith...however, admitting to myself that a true christian HAD lost their faith, would have put mine in jeapordy as well. I think it was impossible for me to think that a true christian could lose their faith, because as far as I was concerned, god would never have allowed that to happen, so they must not have been true christians. If god would allow people to lose their faith, then that shook the entire foundation of what I believed, so it was never considered a possibility.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

 

Thing is, christians wouldn't be in a constant war to defend their faith from the evils of evolution, other religions, gays, or any of the other issues if they felt secure in what they believe. Why do they feel the need to completely shelter their children, and brainwash them from childhood on (such as my, and apparently your, parents did) if they weren't concerned? They do have doubts - yes, they reason them away just like I did for over 20 years, but they still are there.

 

Some do, some don't. Just because someone is into the "defense of the faith" does not automatically mean that the individual is having doubts. As a christian I read up on a lot of apologetics because I wanted to be able to give a defense of my faith when need be, not because of doubts, as I didn't have any doubts as to the truthfulness of the bible and christianity, but because I wanted to know and understand more and be a useful tool for god.

 

I didn't agree with every interpretation of the bible, but I was convinced that the bible itself was the perfect word of god. I had been brainwashed with the bullshit notion that evolutionary theory was an anti-god conspiracy and that nonbelievers either didn't want to submit to god or they were simply blinded from the truth. So when I read creationist bullshit, it was not because I secretly believed evolution was true, it was because I was reinforcing my firm belief that evolution was not true.

 

Now, if I had ever gotten into a deep discussion with an informed nonbeliever, then that perhaps would have raised questions that may have gotten me to doubt. However, that never happened. When I discussed the bible with nonchristians, they came across as not knowing much about the bible, so I was never challenged in that way. It wasn't like on message boards like this one where the nonbelievers can put the believers in their place quite quickly. Thus, I did not have doubts about the bible until at age 29 in my own personal bible studies I began to see that some things just weren't jiving.

 

Believe me, I wish that I could say that I did doubt it earlier, but I can't because I didn't.

 

Having discussions with my fundy mother prior to my coming out proved this - anytime I got onto a subject that was sensitive or she had no good answers for, she would get extremely upset. I was hitting on areas that she can't resolve herself and chooses to ignore.

 

Your discussion with your mother may prove something about your mother, but it doesn't prove anything about others. Sure, there are undoubtedly more like her, but you can't take that one experience and broadbrush all christians as the same.

 

I can't think of a chrisitian out there who doesn't either ignore, suppress, rationalize, or belittle some nagging question in the back of their mind.

 

Well, I was one. I did not have any nagging questions in the back of my mind as to the truthfulness of the bible. And I certainly could not have been the only one like that.

 

Sure, I prayed for a better understanding, because I knew that I could be mistaken on some interpretations. However, it never even entered my mind that the bible itself may not be the perfect word of god until I was 29. I had absolutely zero doubt about it.

 

There is too much evidence, and too much of a world view to NOT have that unless you live in the mountains with no internet, TV, or communication with the outside world.

 

I do believe that the Internet is having an impact on religiosity, and hopefully it will continue to wake people up. However, it is entirely possible for one to have all that stuff and still be a firm believer. For example, one can have the Internet but only go to christian sites (or sites that have no bearing on beliefs). Although I didn't get involved with the Internet until the last couple years of my christian faith, during those couple years I mainly only did email and a couple christian message boards.

 

And TV? It is possible to "filter out" stuff you don't agree with on TV. Hell, we nonbelievers can easily do exactly that when watching FoxNews or one of the christian stations (for the record, though, I didn't like stations like TBN when I was a christian, as I believed that they were perverting the faith), so keep in mind that a thoroughly indoctrinated christian can also filter out stuff they don't agree with on TV (or the Internet, for that matter). As for me personally, I didn't watch a whole lot of TV, but when I did I always viewed it through the christian mindset. (And, no, I didn't live in the mountains. )

 

Yes, most justify those things with arguements that we see by the christians here - but they are still forced to recognize those topics unlike in the past where sometimes they were never confronted with evidence against their faith.

 

I would think that a larger percentage would recognize the evidence now than in previous generations and therefore probably have some nagging doubts, but still not all. You just can't make a broadbrushed generalization like that. Any attempt at broadbrushing an entire group of people is almost certain to be erroneous.

 

Therefore, they all must have some measure of doubt that is suppressed, or else there would never be a need for christian apologetics.

 

All? No, you're wrong. Period. I was one of them. I'm telling you that I did not have any doubts until close to the end of my faith. And yet I was into apologetics, not because of doubts, but for the very reasons I already mentioned in this post, to understand more, to grow in my faith, and to hopefully have an answer whenever in a situation needing one.

 

Again, I wish I could say that I had doubts earlier, but I didn't. I wish I had seen through the bullshit earlier, but I didn't. I couldn't. It was soooooo ingrained in me that it's actually a bit surprising that I did finally see through it at all. And I assure you that there are others just as indoctrinated and firmly believing. What percentage, obviously I can't say; it could be a minority, but who knows? Regardless, I guarantee you that I could not have been the only one.

[dagnarus]

Your not offended by the fact that they think your experiences of God are less real than there's. Your offended by the fact that they think that there experiences of God are less fake than your's. So my advice is admit it, you were a fake christian, you thought you were one of God's chosen, predestinated unto sonship, a partaker of the divine nature, but you were wrong, any such experiences of this you may have had were fake, products of your own imagination[emphasis mine]. Once you've done this, proceed to point out that, the only difference between you and the person who confronted is that you've realized it.

 

None of us were true Christians... and neither are they. I certainly agree with the part of your statement that I've bolded.

 

But I do think that a lot of the offense comes from the allegation that we weren't true BELIEVERS. Because while Christianity is false, the belief was real and sincere. It is offensive for them to imply that we were faking, deliberately deceitful. While I don't consider myself to have been a true believer (just couldn't swallow it all the way), I do know that I tried my best to believe- asking for faith, having long praying sessions, trying to put myself into situations of constant Christian praise/instruction/service, sacrificing huge parts of my life. I don't appreciate being told that I was insincere.

 

Your right. Looking back on it it was worded quite poorly, and rudely. I apologize. That said I would still suggest that the best tack when dealing with this is not to try and convince them that you were a true Christian. But to simply point out as calmly as possible how similar your experiences in Christianity are to theirs.

[Guest ephymeris]

I think the reason it upsets me to be told I was never a true christian is that it makes it seem like I didn't try hard enough at something or like I'm a quitter.

 

It's would be like if my marriage didn't work out. Imagine it's just like christianity, I am fully commited to the relationship but I'm married to a jerk. Lets say I gave it 10 years to work, I read every book I could find on the subject, I spend many hours crying and trying to communicate with my husband only to receive no response, just cold hard refusal to engage. Then, broken hearted, I finally file for divorce. Then, as I'm going through a painful separation (in which I lose many of my friends and loved ones) a happily married person who heard of my recent divorce approaches me. This gushing bride tells me she thinks my marriage must never have been valid since it failed and since my husband's such an awesome guy, it must have been all my fault. Yeah, I think I would take that poorly.

[ClaraOlive]

Then, as I'm going through a painful separation (in which I lose many of my friends and loved ones) a happily married person who heard of my recent divorce approaches me. This gushing bride tells me she thinks my marriage must never have been valid since it failed and since my husband's such an awesome guy, it must have been all my fault. Yeah, I think I would take that poorly.

 

The most fun one is the double whammy. Your marriage failed BECAUSE you were never a Christian!

[Googledotman]

I got the not a true believer speech yesterday from my mom. I think that people call us fake christians because they way we used to worship when we were in the faith is a dark contrast from not believing at all. They probably call us fake because they can't accept that we were once like them and now are what they were always warned against.