A Book For The Ladies

[Justin]

We have all seen many christian women and men saying that christianity and the Bible is pro-woman. I came across this book on Amazon, written by Annie Laurie Gaylor, who co-founded the Freedom From Religion Foundation. I haven't read it but from the reviews it lays out all the rape and the treatment of women as the property of men in both the OT and NT and how women are responsible for the downfall of humanity in the Garden and much more.

 

It seems like a perfect book and a perfect counter to the christian's idea that the Bible and christianity is the best deal women can get.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Woe-Women-Bible-Tells-Me/product-reviews/B000LA5QTE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[dagnarus]

Depends on who your talking to. I to haven't read it but I'd have to suspect that it wouldn't make a dent upon those Christians who already fully buy into the idea that woman are the weaker vessels and need their husbands to rule over them. Unfortunately from what I've observed they already take a lot of the misogynistic crap as being in their own best interest (either that or they're not willing to admit there disagreement).

[Guest]

Depends on who your talking to. I to haven't read it but I'd have to suspect that it wouldn't make a dent upon those Christians who already fully buy into the idea that woman are the weaker vessels and need their husbands to rule over them. Unfortunately from what I've observed they already take a lot of the misogynistic crap as being in their own best interest (either that or they're not willing to admit there disagreement).

 

Yea, I had a fundy tell me xtianity gives the most respect and freedom to women out of all the religions. I simply laughed in his face....

[Karhoof]

Yea, I had a fundy tell me xtianity gives the most respect and freedom to women out of all the religions.

Yeah, all three of them!

 

 

Re: "Woe To The Women",

In a climate where most people won't acknowlege anti-christian views, I think any avenue that highlights our humanity should be explored.

It saddens me that it probably won't make the dent it should.

[NotBlinded]

Depends on who your talking to. I to haven't read it but I'd have to suspect that it wouldn't make a dent upon those Christians who already fully buy into the idea that woman are the weaker vessels and need their husbands to rule over them. Unfortunately from what I've observed they already take a lot of the misogynistic crap as being in their own best interest (either that or they're not willing to admit there disagreement).

 

Yea, I had a fundy tell me xtianity gives the most respect and freedom to women out of all the religions. I simply laughed in his face....

Well, I think it matters what type of freedom they are talking about. Sure, they don't have to make any important decisions, so freedom from thinking. They sometimes don't have to work in the workplace, so freedom from earning an income. Yuck...I think I'll stop now.

[belladonna]

Ahh! The very first topic that shook the foundations of my former xtian faith.

 

I remember being called a feminazi on my church's website's message board (this was a baptist "mega-church") by a fellow churchgoer for questioning the chauvinistic/anti-women parts of the bible.

 

That was the beginning of the end of church attendance and xtian "fellowship" for me, though my actual deconversion from xianity would come years later. Reason it took so long? For one thing, there is a wide variety of thought and opinion of the bible throughout xianity. I was a liberal xtian before I trashed the whole thing for good.

 

Exactly my reason for leaving it (well, that and being pretty much THROWN out of it ); I can't get into the "whole women are empowered by embracing their Biblical role" bullshit. You know who posted a thread about this book called Cruel Hoax written by some closet nutcase who said feminism was the whole reason for societal decline since a woman should be willing to give up her independence for a man's protection.

 

One of the biggest arguments I ever had was with a group of Catholics over this; they tried to tell me that the Catholic Church does not promote the submissive role for women, to which I replied, yeah, RIGHT. They swore up and down that the arguments I had with my Mexican in-laws were cultural, and had nothing to do with Catholic teachings. I said, really? What part of telling me that I was a sinner for getting fixed instead of having kids until my uterus dropped out was NOT a Catholic teaching? Or that having my father-in-law telling my husband why I should remember my God given role and submit to his authority was not a Catholic teaching? They told me the Catholic Church considers women equal to men, and that men are required to submit to their wives as well.

 

So I went and found this little nugget:

 

http://www.wf-f.org/CDF-LetteronCollaboration.html

 

Another book I found interesting was "Quiverfull", by Kathryn Joyce; that's some scary stuff, too.

[eveningmeadows]

The very first pastor I had was this guy who was a Bob Jones graduate, the holy roller college in Florida. I have to give him credit for his bravery in coming to the moral wasteland of the Northeast. I just started the born again thing, and he said every women should have long hair, at the time mine was very short, wear dresses, I think I've worn a dress like twice. We were told to not wear shorts at a church picnic to be a "witness" to the neighbors! What that were're freaks! And NO co-ed swimming! I fought him all the time, and was constantly asking him where it said in the bible that I had to have long hair, and wear dresses? Has he ever had to wear a dress when there's a 20 below wind chill factor? Of course not, he's from down south! Finally he had me turn around in my jeans, and said yeah, that was okay. What? It was a very small church, some kind of church split, and now I look back and wonder why the "mature" christians in that church, didn't call him out of his stupidity! They would snicker, but no one had the guts to challange him. Only me, and I was a "new believer". Needless, to say, he didn't last long in the sinful east coast. Went back to Tennessee or something. I should have ran after that, but I was just too full of guilt. This guy "counciled" me when my ex and I got back together. I think he was afraid of my ex. Of course it was all my fault,I made him run around with other women! Of course, the ex is still living like this!Why did I stay and allow myself to be abused like this for years and years? I don't know. After my ex left again, I was asked by a good christian neighbor how our sex life was!! Why didn't he ask my ex, he obviously was having one! And we as women are told to submit to such idiots!

[eveningmeadows]

Wow, I just went to the quiverfull site. That is scary, the guilt they dump on couples that just can't handle any more kids. I've been fixed, and have not had any of the problems mentioned in their paperwork. What garbage. I love my 4 daughters, but enough of a good thing was enough. Emotionally and financially. Kids do want to have a decent place to live, and kind of up to date clothes. Who does this big family benefit? The kids or does it appease the guilt of the quiverful parents?

[Shion]

True, the Bible doesn't empower them, but they cherry pick the verses that makes it easier to ignore their limited freedoms, their second-class status, and how the Bible turns them into cattle: a walking uterus & bread maker.

 

I haven't read the book, but I'll add it to the list. I think anything that promotes doubt and initiates self-reflection and thinking is good for a dusty old, doctrine sick brain.

[Guest TRHood]

Although not in all circles, most Christians fully believe in the equality of men and women. Genesis states that God created men and women equally in his image. Of all the world's religions, Christianity was the first to establish the role of women. Jesus affirmed the equality of women in having them as his disciples. However, the Bible teaches that equality does not imply that men and women have the same roles. Men were created in the image of God to be the spiritual and familial leaders. Women were created in the image of God to be supporters and mothers. Certainly this still doesn't fly for modern feminists, but that doesn't make it not true. We have different gifts, and so we have different roles to play in life. That doesn't mean that if we neglect those roles that society will crumble (as it obviously is still going). However, things run most efficiently when men take their leadership role seriously, and women faithfully support them. A great resource for researching the evidence for gender roles in various academic disciplines is Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Wayne Grudem and John Piper. Even if you do not agree with their viewpoints, it makes for very interesting reading.

[Guest TRHood]

.

[Shyone]

Although not in all circles, most Christians fully believe in the equality of men and women. Genesis states that God created men and women equally in his image. Of all the world's religions, Christianity was the first to establish the role of women. Jesus affirmed the equality of women in having them as his disciples. However, the Bible teaches that equality does not imply that men and women have the same roles. Men were created in the image of God to be the spiritual and familial leaders. Women were created in the image of God to be supporters and mothers. Certainly this still doesn't fly for modern feminists, but that doesn't make it not true. We have different gifts, and so we have different roles to play in life. That doesn't mean that if we neglect those roles that society will crumble (as it obviously is still going). However, things run most efficiently when men take their leadership role seriously, and women faithfully support them. A great resource for researching the evidence for gender roles in various academic disciplines is Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Wayne Grudem and John Piper. Even if you do not agree with their viewpoints, it makes for very interesting reading.

First, you are seeing women through the eyes of a member of modern society, and you interpret the bible in that light. That many Christians fail to see that is not because they are blind or stupid, but rather that they have studied and found that women should be subjugated. Verses on both sides, battle of the verses, who wins?

 

Second, you belie your acceptance of women's equality when you speak of things running more "efficiently when men take their leadership role seriously, and women faithfully support them."

 

Remember, woman's right to vote happened only recently, with religion opposing it (in general). Same with slavery.

[Deva]

Biblical roles of womanhood do not work for me. I couldn't find a man so I have to hold down a job and make a living.

[belladonna]

Although not in all circles, most Christians fully believe in the equality of men and women. Genesis states that God created men and women equally in his image. Of all the world's religions, Christianity was the first to establish the role of women. Jesus affirmed the equality of women in having them as his disciples. However, the Bible teaches that equality does not imply that men and women have the same roles. Men were created in the image of God to be the spiritual and familial leaders. Women were created in the image of God to be supporters and mothers. Certainly this still doesn't fly for modern feminists, but that doesn't make it not true. We have different gifts, and so we have different roles to play in life. That doesn't mean that if we neglect those roles that society will crumble (as it obviously is still going). However, things run most efficiently when men take their leadership role seriously, and women faithfully support them. A great resource for researching the evidence for gender roles in various academic disciplines is Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Wayne Grudem and John Piper. Even if you do not agree with their viewpoints, it makes for very interesting reading.

 

I read the book "Woe to the Women", and maybe, before you start handing me the equality of men and women in Christianity nonsense, perhaps you should read it. Christianity no more accepts the equality of men and women than any other of the religions, and, from the content of your post, you don't accept it either, or you wouldn't state that women were created to be supporters and mothers. Being a supporter is not being equal; if you truly recognized the equality of men and women, you would know that there are women who make exceptional leaders and men who make exceptional supporters. I've read Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (written, of course, by men), and found nothing new in regard to argument; it is the same old rhetoric rehashed in different language. Perhaps the book that really should be read and studied is the Bible itself, where women are routinely put upon, where they are nothing more than property, where they are bought and sold and raped and murdered with impunity. Where a woman who refuses to be put on display is beheaded, where women are often considered evil, where countries who disobey God are described in the feminine.

 

I often wonder how much better this world would be if, instead of being patted on the head and praised for being "supporters", women had been allowed to use their knowledge, their experience and their wisdom to function as leaders. If they had truly been recognized as absolute equals to men, if they had just been given the chance to show what they had...instead, they were property. They were treated as second class citizens. They were allowed nothing, and allowed to prove nothing, because it was assumed they were nothing simply because they didn't possess the correct anatomy, all because "God said so". It's nonsense. Religion has done more to harm women than it has ever done to help them, because religion denies them the ability to realize their full potential, and I, for one, want nothing to do with any organization, religious or otherwise, who tells me I can't, I shouldn't, or I'd be better off doing something else, simply because I'm a woman. About the only things I can't do that a man can is deposit sperm and pee standing up, and I'm sure I could accomplish the latter with a little practice.

[godlessgrrl]

<Christian justification for misogyny snipped>

 

What a load of sexist crap.

[Brakeman]

It rocks to be a male in fundie land. If you see a girl you like you can just rape her and she has to marry you or face death by stoning. She has to obey you like a submissive dog. You can use her to pump out as many babies as you can seed and she has to keep her mouth shut about it. You don't even have to be monogamous with her.

 

Ain't that sweeeeet!

[HRDWarrior]

Although not in all circles, most Christians fully believe in the equality of men and women. Genesis states that God created men and women equally in his image. Of all the world's religions, Christianity was the first to establish the role of women. Jesus affirmed the equality of women in having them as his disciples. However, the Bible teaches that equality does not imply that men and women have the same roles. Men were created in the image of God to be the spiritual and familial leaders. Women were created in the image of God to be supporters and mothers. Certainly this still doesn't fly for modern feminists, but that doesn't make it not true. We have different gifts, and so we have different roles to play in life. That doesn't mean that if we neglect those roles that society will crumble (as it obviously is still going). However, things run most efficiently when men take their leadership role seriously, and women faithfully support them. A great resource for researching the evidence for gender roles in various academic disciplines is Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Wayne Grudem and John Piper. Even if you do not agree with their viewpoints, it makes for very interesting reading.

 

This is the kind of crap that christians use to keep women "in their place" - it's just a fluffier way of still telling women they are less than men, and only males are the ones with the true abilities and all us females are good for is keeping the males of the world going. Sorry, it's a load of horse shit and it seriously screwed with mine (and several other members here) minds most of our lives. Trying to tell us we were equel, but when you took away all the nice fluffy shit, it boiled down to women were below men. Period.

 

This is a major sore point for me, and the fact that so many fundy christians support this and try to claim that women are equel really gets my hackles up. As long as I subscribed to this veiwpoint, even in my "far more equitable than most" marriage I still was never happy being a woman or female - I tried to force myself to accept, and it never worked. Why was I destined to always be "less" just because I was born with the wrong body part? I didn't have a choice in the matter, it had nothing to do with my skills, abilities, intellect, or anything else for that matter - simply the body parts I had, and because of that I would always be playing second fiddle.

 

Sorry - no. I am finally happy with who and what I am and it's ONLY because I am no longer a second class citizen due to some religious bigotry. Finally, I am free to be who I am, and truly see myself as an equel to the other half of the human race. Now the only things that dictate my roles in life are my choices, my abilities, and what I choose to do with them. For once, I can be proud of some of the things I've done, I can look forward to where I'm headed, and realize that even without my husband I would be just fine - sure, I love him dearly, but I would survive and would have the skills to take care of myself.

 

Oh, and not every single female born into this world wants, desires, or has any gifts to be a "mother." To think of women in such a narrow view really does show your ignorance. I hate babies - I mean, I really, really do not like them. I don't want to be around kids, I don't want to hold someone's baby, I don't think they are "cute," and I find the idea of having kids downright repulsive. I have no issues with women who want kids, but I am NOT one of them - never have been in over 30 years. I would much rather be out riding my motorcycle, training my German Shepherds, or riding my horse. I have career goals and aspirations, and have earned the respect of numerous men in fields where it's damn near impossible for a woman to do so. I'm proud of my accomplishements and where I'm going....

 

....and guess what, none of it would have been considered had I let myself believe that the christian definition of women was all there really was. Thankfully, I never could swallow that pill, and I know there are a lot of other members here who feel very similarly.

 

Don't patronize us, we are allowed to think, and are more than baby makers and "supporters."

 

/rant off/

[Neon Genesis]

And you just know that if somebody tried to use the argument God created blacks and whites for different roles, even most fundamentalists I would hope would find that appalling and disgusting, but for some reason it's still ok to use that kind of mentality to suppress women. Another thing that disturbs me is that at my parents' church, even some of the women submissively nodded in agreement in bible class that there was nothing sexist about 1 Timothy. I was also disgusted when one of the guys said that women only find this verse sexist because men don't follow it anymore and if more men actually followed their "proper" roles, women wouldn't complain about it.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Men were created in the image of God to be the spiritual and familial leaders. Women were created in the image of God to be supporters and mothers.

 

Yet your god is too much of a moron to realize that there are plenty of women who make good leaders. What a waste.

 

Why, it's almost as if the Bible was created by primitive men who wanted to be in charge, not an all-knowing god!

[Shyone]

And you just know that if somebody tried to use the argument God created blacks and whites for different roles, even most fundamentalists I would hope would find that appalling and disgusting, but for some reason it's still ok to use that kind of mentality to suppress women. Another thing that disturbs me is that at my parents' church, even some of the women submissively nodded in agreement in bible class that there was nothing sexist about 1 Timothy. I was also disgusted when one of the guys said that women only find this verse sexist because men don't follow it anymore and if more men actually followed their "proper" roles, women wouldn't complain about it.

In reading about the justification for slavery prior to the Civil War, this very argument was given. I can't recall the specific passages, but - I think it had to do with Ham.

 

I mean the Descendant of Noah, not the delicious edible form.

 

The "curse of Ham" had been used by some members of Abrahamic religions to justify racism and the enslavement of people of Black African ancestry, who were believed to be descendants of Ham.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

Yet your god is too much of a moron to realize that there are plenty of women who make good leaders. What a waste.

 

Which makes me wonder why so many fundamentalists support Sarah Palin as president.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

 

 

Yet your god is too much of a moron to realize that there are plenty of women who make good leaders. What a waste.

 

Which makes me wonder why so many fundamentalists support Sarah Palin as president.

 

Hey... good point! Ahhh, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

[godlessgrrl]

Which makes me wonder why so many fundamentalists support Sarah Palin as president.

 

Because they're willing to suspend their own beliefs if it means they can get something they want.

 

Palin as president would mean that a batshit fundie would hold the highest public office in the nation. If that happened fundies across the nation would be creaming themselves with delight. Her sex is secondary to the effort to make America over in their own image.

 

I also suspect the fact that she's perky and has tits doesn't hurt.